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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: PENCAN on Tuesday 26 April 16 21:54 BST (UK)
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Hello,
l'm researching a CANNON family, and have got as far as the marriage cert. for THOMAS CANNON & ANN NORRIS in the Parish of St. Paul, Deptford 21st sept. 1846. lt has Thomas's father down as PHILIP CANNON, a fishmonger. Looking for Philip Cannon, all l've been able to find, is in the U.K. Merchant Seamen Records, 1835-1941. . . . PHLIP CANUNN, Military Service, b. Galway 1798. Long shot, but could this Philip have ended up living in Deptford? He would have been 48 at Thomas's wedding if it is him. Thing is l can't find him anywhere on any Census etc. Could anyone help please, thanks.
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Hi
Although Thomas married in London - where and when was he born?
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Hello CaroleW,
Thanks for your quick reply. l've spent some time on and off, looking and not getting past the 'brick wall'. Picking it up again recently and still nothing, l posted my post last night. Having another try just now, Sods' law! lt looks like l was looking in the wrong direction and now have a few things l need to work out. l had Thomas born in Deptford where he married Ann, but have now found one who was born in Colchester, but moved to Deptford. His father is PHILIP CANNON born about 1786 in Essex. Thing is, Thomas married Ann Norris in Deptford, but it appears that 3 years later, as a widow he married Margaret Stratton Whitaker, also in Deptford. there is a query about a son Thomas, l need to work out which one is his mother, but that will have to wait until tomorrow now [it's getting late!] Anyway, thanks again for your time, sorry to have bothered you.
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1841 - Magdalen Street, St Mary Magdalen, Colchester, Essex, England
Phillip Cannon, 60, fishmonger, born Ireland
Ann Cannon, 60, born Ireland
Jane Cannon, 17, born Essex
Betsy Cannon, 4, born Essex
Philip Cannon, baptised 16 May 1819, St Mary Colchester, Essex to Philip and Ann, but can't see a baptism for Jane or Thomas ???.
Jo :)
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Two baptisms for young Thomas?
Thomas s/o Thomas and Ann of Bramfield Place, fishmonger, baptised 9 Jan 1848, at St Paul Deptford, no birth date given.
Thomas Cannon s/o Thomas and Ann of Bramfield Place, labourer, baptised 14 Dec 1847 at St Paul Deptford, born 4 Dec 1847.
Jo :)
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Hello jomcd967,
Thanks for your help and sorry for the delay in replying, but l'm still trying to work out the info l had and what you have found. Philip had a son Thomas b. 1822, who had Thomas b. 1845, who had Thomas b.1978, and l've got a bit mixed up with them. l know that Thomas 1845 was born in Deptford, but it looks like his dad, Thomas 1822 was born Colchester. This Thomas had a brother William b. 1820 and their father was Philip b. 1786, but all born in Colchester. Their mother was Jane b. 1786 in Colchester. Thing is the 1841C family you found fits in, the siblings would be:- Philip b. 1819, William b. 1820, Thomas b. 1822 and Jane 1824. The eldest son and daughter usually took their parents Christian names which also fits. But the 1841C mothers' name is Ann, and she and Philip are both born in Ireland. There's also the daughter Betsy b. 1837. Jane would have been 55 when she had her and Ann would have been 56. Maybe Betsy was a granddaughter. Thanks again for your help, it's given me more to look at. l will follow the new threads to see if l can sort this out.
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His father is PHILIP CANNON born about 1786 in Essex.
Where are you seeing a record of Philip CANNON born in Essex?
Their mother was Jane b. 1786 in Colchester.
Where are you seeing this?
Debra :)
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I'm with Dundee!
1. Philip Cannon, fishmonger was born in Ireland, not Essex - his burial was at St. Mary Magdalen, Colchester on 25/4/1847 and shows he was born ca.1784.
2. I can find no evidence at all that he was married to a Jane - everything points to the fact his wife was the Ann who he is with in 1841.
I do believe you've got yourself into a muddle one way and another.
Philip and Ann appear to have had a number of children who were all baptised at St. Leonard, Colchester between 1804 and 1819 - there are corruptions of the surname but I firmly believe they are all the one family:
Charles Canning bp.15/7/1804 - later on census his name is confirmed as Cannon.
James Camon bp.1/6/1806 - is Cannon in census
John Cannun bp.3/4/1808
Catherine Canning bp.29/7/1810 bur.19/1/1814 (as Canham)
Ann Canning bp.4/7/1813 (died?)
Catherine Canham bp.13/11/1814
Ann Canham bp.5/4/1817
Philip Cannon bp.16/5/1819 - but bur.as Canning 18/10/1821 St. Mary Magdalen, Colchester.
then you say
William bc.1820
Thomas bc.1822
Jane bc.1824
St. Leonard, Colchester baptisms appear on familysearch after 1819 but no more children of Philip baptised there.
However, since they are living in St. Mary Magdalen parish, Colchester by 1841 it more than possible the other 3 children were baptised there but alas, records not online. Certainly, son Philip baptised at St. Leonards but buried St. Magdalen so looks like family moved there around 1820. Sure you could access via SEAX though you have to pay a fee for access.
Philip as said already died in 1847 but Ann didn't die until 1862 - bur.7/12/1862 St. Mary Magdalen, Colchester - bc.1780.
1851/1861 census shows that Ann Cannon was born in Cummer, Ireland - I believe this is in Galway. The 'Betsy' Cannon in 1841 is with Ann in 1851 and shown as Elizabeth, grand-daughter.
I suspect that Philip and Ann married in Ireland and then came straight over to Essex.
What made you think Philips wife was named Jane? There is nothing at all to substantiate this. A Jane Cannon died in Colchester in 1849 but suspect this is Philip's daughter.
Annette
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Hello All,
Yes Annette, l have got myself in a complete muddle on this one! The info l have came from Ancestry:- Philip Cannon b. abt. 1786, Essex.
Jane Cannon b. abt. 1786, Essex.
birth of son William Cannon, abt. 1820, Essex.
birth of son Thomas Cannon, 1822, Colchester, Essex.
death of wife Jane Cannon, Colchester, april 1849 aged 63.
Looking at all the baptisms you found, l am wondering now if it's possible, looking at the variations on the Cannon surname [5], wether Ann and Jane could be the same person? l've just had a look on Family Search and notice that they too have John b. 1808, but their info has:
Philip Canning, father
Wife Kitty.
Son John b. 3rd april 1808
St. Leonard, Colchester, Essex.
Could Ann, Jane and Kitty be the same person using variations on her Christian names?
Ann and Philip getting married in Ireland is probably why l wasn't able to find any marriage etc and probably that's where the story now ends. But one last thing is that Philip died 1847, but on his son Thomas's 2nd wedding cert it doesn't state that he is deceased, and the wedding was in 1949.
Thank you all so much for the time and trouble you have gone to, it's very much appreciated.
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When you say you 'got the info' from Ancestry I am assuming this is from one of the online public trees which has no real sources. Just because an individual has posted this information doesn't make it fact! Which is why you have to check sources.
There in not a single baptism that lists parents as Philip and Jane - if it is the tree I looked at it has Jane bc.1786 living at West Thurrock (Purfleet) in 1841 with sons William 30 (bc.1811) and Thomas (bc.1821) which 'they' have assumed is the Jane Cannon who died in 1849 Colchester (without actually checking).
However, the Jane Cannon in West Thurrock in 1841 is still alive in 1851 and living still in West Thurrock with a sister in 1851.
People 'guesstimate' unfortunately, post things online and people looking at the online tree think it's fact! Because, no doubt, the Thomas Cannon 20 (son of Jane 55 in West Thurrock) appears to be the only Thomas Cannon born Essex ca.1822 (son of a Philip) they have assumed the 1841 family in West Thurrock is 'theirs' and having found a Jane Cannon died 1849 Colchester (where your Thomas is from) they have assumed it was the Jane in West Thurrock when she is still alive and kicking in 1851 and still living there.
As I said in my earlier post, I'm pretty sure that the Jane who died in 1849 Colchester is the daughter of Philip and Ann.
Continuing with this couple, I took out a days subscription on SEAX (for something else) and decided I'd look for the baptisms of Thomas ca.1822 and Jane ca.1824 at St. Mary Magdalene, Colchester and found both with surname shown as Canning!:
Thomas bp.21/10/1821, son of Philip and Ann
Jane bp.20/6/1824, dau. of Philip and Ann.
I also checked re. the 4 year old 'Betsy' born 1837. Her baptism was on 13/12/1837 as Elizabeth Cannon and she was shown as grand-daughter to Ann Cannon in 1851 - however, her parents are shown as Philip and Ann too??? So, either there was a son Philip whose baptism we haven't found and who also married an Ann (which I somehow doubt) or they were trying to maybe legitimise somehow the illegitimate child of one of their daughters. Who can say?
As to the name 'Kitty' - it's an Irish name and usually short for Catherine but perhaps in this case it was just her nickname. Again, who can say!
You are lucky that Philip had the more uncommon Christian name else this whole dilemma may have been harder to solve.
However, if nothing else I hope I have proved to you to take all online trees with a large pinch of salt and check all the given 'facts' especially when no clear source is given. Philip was only married to an Ann (no Jane) and indeed the Jane Cannon said to be his wife (with no baptisms to prove it anyway) who they said died in 1849 Colchester (almost certainly this was Philips daughter born 1824) was still hale and hearty and living in West Thurrock in 1851.
Annette
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Well said Annette :)
And good luck with future research Pencan, there is always a world of wise words and helpful clever people on this site to assist if your stuck :)
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Hello Annette,
Lesson learned! Again, many thanks for the help, and jomcd967, thanks and you are so right. When l've needed help or advice in the past there has always been, as you say, helpful, clever people willing to help. Thank you so much.