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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: AnneToday on Tuesday 26 April 16 19:13 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Trying to trace Frederick Charles Harris, born Norfolk, England, 1912. 1939 Registration has him as a Hotel Waiter at the Great Eastern Hotel, City of London. No identifiable trace of him from here on. Service records have been tried without success.
The Great Eastern was bombed in 1941 – does anyone know of records of casualties or other details, such as staff records, which might help, please?
Anne :)
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Have you tried Commonwealth War Graves Commission Website?
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1
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Yes, but none of the Frederick Charles Harris are the one I am looking for.
Anne :)
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Was he married? did he have any children?
Have you found him in the London electoral registers for 1938/1939?
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1939 Registration says married – family knew nothing about this. Can’t find a female named Harris at his Registration address. No marriage or children I'm able to identify.
Electoral Roll 1938/9 - found two men of the same name in Stoke Newington, but not at the September 1939 Registration.
Anne
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If you have his exact date of birth from the 1939 register, you can search England & Wales deaths on Ancestry (upto 2007 is complete, 2007-2013 is a partial index)and include the date of birth as part of the search. If there are no results, it can infer that he died before 1969 which is when dates of birth were included in the index. But not conclusive.
The 1939 register was compiled in a similar way to the census, if he wasn't with his wife (he was at work) at the time, she will be recorded elsewhere.
To complicate things, his name is quite frequently occuring in the marriage index.
If you were doing this professionally you would need to buy all marriage certs in his name between 1928 and 1939 to see if you can identify him.
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Hi,
I’ve checked every birth of this name in 1912 and traced them through to death, which leaves two unresolved. Ditto deaths of this name after 1939, leaving one unresolved in Somerset 1942. The two unresolved sets don’t correlate as yet. My Fred’s death not yet resolved.
Marriages - that would be 63 between 1928 and 1939! Without the marriage I can’t identify the wife at home.
Children – beyond counting as BMD registers do not show fathers.
Unless there is a descendent who comes forward, I think I might have hit a brick wall!
(This is to trace my own ancestors only)
Anne
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But for Frederick C Harris in Norfolk there is only -
Birth, March 1912 Downham - mother Mears
Marriage, Dec 1936 Docking - to Ethel F Ginn
Death, Dec 1966 Fakenham - age 54
Are you sure they are not all relating to the same person? Or is the death one you have as unresolved?
Death in Kings Lynn, October 1985
Ethel Florence Harris, born 25 Sep 1913
(although the only Ethel F Ginn birth I can see was in Dec qtr 1912)
Have you tried looking for Ethel Harris in Norfolk in 1939?
John
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Thank you, but no, they are not related. Fred was not alive by 1952. I'm being vague due to current living relatives. There was no "wife of Fred" or "children of Fred" in Norfolk known to this close knit family. The three villages mentioned are only a bike ride apart.
I've found other 'Frederick Charles Harris' in Norfolk, so the age of Ethel's husband would resolve this.
It is also possible the marriage is a red herring and the enumerator in 1939 made a mistake.
Anne
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How did you establish that he had died by 1952?
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Another question!
Do you know when Frederick's parents moved to Essex?
I also wonder if we can assume that Frederick was actually domiciled in London in 1939. Working at the Great Eastern Hotel, yes, but that is right by Liverpool Street station. He could have easily popped back to a home in the eastern counties.
I can't tell you the age of Ethel's husband in 1939 - we are not allowed to do look ups of that register in any case - however it is simple to establish that her man wasn't actually in the household at the time.
There are a couple of Frederick Charles Harris deaths in Norfolk as you intimated. However, they weren't born in the county, and I do not think they married there.
John
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How did you identify Frederick Charles Harris b 1912 Norfolk as your target?
What is your starting point that you can prove by documentation?
Why do you think that FCH died before 1952 (65 years ago) ?
[ please message one of us if you really think that it is a sensitive subject ]
Your profile mentions "Mears" and "Norfolk" - So the FCH with mother Mears is close?
Do you have FCH's birth certificate?
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Are you absolutely sure that the Frederick Charles Harris born Norfolk was born 29/1/1912?
Because there was another one of that name born in Greenwich in the same quarter and it could possibly be him who was the Hotel Waiter in London??
If, however, you are positive the above birth date is for your man then clearly the surviving family members are not as closeknit as they thought they were when he is clearly shown as married in 1939 and this they were not aware of!
Annette
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Hi,
I am positive my target is Frederick Charles Harris born 29/1/1912 in Norfolk.
1952 is one of the datum points I use to relate to my memories. Fred was “died in the War” by then.
Fred’s parent never moved to Essex.
“popped back to a home in the eastern counties” – could this be done on a Hotel Waiter’s wages in 1939, to a family who would not have been able to help financially?
The age of Ethel’s husband at time of marriage in 1936 would help.
I am aware of the one born in Greenwich and, yes, he could possibly be the Hotel Waiter, but is he Frederick Charles? The actual date of birth for him would help. He was registered in Jan-Mar quarter, but could have been born between end of December and end of March.
The Rangoon Memorial has the following – but there is nothing on the Commonwealth War Graves site or any other site for him:
HARRIS, Private, FREDERICK, 4982582. 2nd Bn. West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own). 5th May 1944. Age 32. Face 8.
Could he be born in Greenwich or Sunderland – my two unresolved births?
Anne
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Hi
I would have thought that for the Frederick C Harris, March 1912, Greenwich, the most likely death would be
Dec qtr 1981 Gravesend
Harris, Frederick Charles
d-o-b 30 December 1911
Not so bad location wise either for that one. Probate in 1981 - Frederick Charles Harris of 25 Cleveland House Laburnum Grove Northfleet Kent died 1 October 1981
No Frederick C Harris births in June qtr 1912
For the Sep quarter 1912 there are two -
Frederick C. Harris - mother Dibbley, registered Sunderland
Frederick C. Harris - mother Harris, registered Southampton
two deaths which match on age, although different locations
March qtr 1968, Warley East, Frederick C Harris, age 55
Possible probate for him in 1968 - Frederick Copson Harris of 49 Pitcairn Rd Smethwick Warley Worcs died 23 February 1968
and
March 1984 Hillingdon
Frederick Charles Harris
d-o-b 10 August 1912
John
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The Rangoon Memorial has the following –
HARRIS, Private, FREDERICK, 4982582. 2nd Bn. West Yorkshire Regiment (Prince of Wales's Own). 5th May 1944. Age 32. Face 8.
Army Roll of Honour 1939-1945 says he was born Burton-on-Trent, Derbyshire
died 5 May 1944, theatre of war Burma
There's a probate record for him too I think, in 1944 - Harris, Frederick of 76 Lansdowne road Swadlincote Derbyshire died 5 May 1944 on war service. Administration to Ethel Mary Harris, wife of Thomas Valentine Harris.
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Frederick Charles Harris, your person of interest, born Norfolk, 1912, do you have his birth certificate?
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I tried to look at the bigger picture in case I could gain anything from that - couldn't find a marriage between a Harris and a Mears but eventually discovered (from the war entry for Leonard) that Robert was said to be Robert Ernest Harris.
However, he appears to have given himself the name Robert Ernest, as he was plain Ernest at birth, plus with his family in 1881, 1891, 1901 census as plain Ernest. He then marries as Robert Ernest Harris to Mary Ann Meyers (although her birth entry is Mears) and yet on the following census is listed as plain Ernest again. In 1939 and his death in 1954 he is Robert E.
There is no connection with this man and his family to Staffordshire at all (the ones there were a father and son who were both named Robert Edward (born 1864 Norfolk and 1896 Hanley, Staffs).
Annette
Edit: Have now discovered he was baptised when he was 10, as Robert Ernest Harris 28/2/1884 Barton, son of William and Lydia although he continued to be known as Ernest until his marriage.
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Dawn,
My target is Frederick Charles Harris born 29/1/1912, Norfolk. I personally took my information from a birthday book, handwritten by Frederick’s father.
John,
For the Sep quarter 1912 there are two -
Frederick C. Harris - mother Dibbley, registered Sunderland I have this one as unresolved.
Frederick C. Harris - mother Harris, registered Southampton
Army Roll of Honour:
HARRIS, FREDERICK CHARLES Died 2/10/1944 ARNHEM OOSTERBEEK WAR CEMETERY Private Royal Engineers, The Dorsetshire Regt Soldier No. 2062425 Age 32
Son of Alfred and Maud Harris, of Southampton; husband of Norah Lillian Harris, of Millbrook, Southampton. Frederick married Norah Bailey in 1935
Details for Private Frederick Charles Harris 4982582 5/5/1944 seem conclusive to me, thank you.
I would have thought that for the Frederick C Harris, March 1912, Greenwich, the most likely death would be Dec qtr 1981 Gravesend. Harris, Frederick Charles d-o-b 30 December 1911
I agree, so that leaves only my Frederick, born Jan 1912, on the birth list and the 1939 Registration. The full name and date of birth are correct on the Register, therefore, it must be him in The Great Eastern Hotel.
I don’t have a problem with him being there, but, where did he go next? Was the married status on the registration correct? Where did he die? The hotel was bombed, but not destroyed, in 1941. I wonder if there’s a memorial somewhere in the hotel archives to those working there who fell in the war, but not in the armed forces?
Annette,
Frederick’s father was officially Robert Ernest, but he called himself Ernest. Where did you find a birth record saying he was just Ernest? Do you have a copy of the baptism record which gives his age?
Mary Ann’s correct name is Mears, the other is a spelling mistake.
I never mentioned a connection with Staffordshire.
Anne
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Hi again
The Great Eastern Hotel was owned by the London and North Eastern Railway
Any surviving LNER staff records should be at TNA (their catalogue mentions some at Aberdeen University?) I'm not sure whether there are any online on ancestry, possibly not, but you would have to check.
You know about 1939, so I guess I can talk about it (well, one page of it). It says that a number of the staff were in the Great Eastern Hotel London A.R.P. Service. Sadly, I don't believe that any ARP service records have survived.
For Frederick and another chap, however, it says L.N.E.R. Hotels A.R.P. Service (or Services)
Is there any significance in that different wording? I don't know!
According to wikipedia, which I would not take as the last word on any subject, but is handy for lazy people like me, the LNER owned 23 hotels.
So was Frederick in London temporarily? Perhaps some of the waiters there had already joined up and he had been recently drafted in? It must have been a very busy hotel. Or was he perhaps a kind of roving waiter, working at different LNER hotels at different times?
Sorry to harp on about the Norfolk marriage, but one of the LNER hotels was the Sandringham Hotel, Hunstanton (I do think you will need to look up Ethel in 1939)
Re the mystery Weston death of Frederick C Harris in 1942. I really don't know who that one is, again there is probate for him (1943). This tells us that his address was 25 Jubilee Road Weston Super Mare. And that he died 10 December 1942 at Statutory Hospital, Weston. Administration to Violet Ruby Ellen Harris widow.
So we can see from the GRO indexes that he married March qtr 1939, Weston, spouse Violet R E Trim.
Age on death (29) would be one year out for your Frederick. It's also the wrong part of the country for the LNER. I think his widow Violet may not have remarried.
John
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His father's 1884 baptism is transcribed here along with an image of the Bishops Transcript
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:27HY-LPX
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Is it possible that some waiters could be employed on LNER services including "sleeper"
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I see brother Leonard died during WW2 in India, did his other brothers serve in WW2?
Is Leonard's death noted by his father in the birthday book?
My grandmother had such a birthday book and all events were noted.
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I posted a reply to this thread last night but no longer appears here!!
I gave details of the baptism for Robert Ernest Harris which is since been given by dawnsh.
As to the mention of Staffordshire - you did in fact mention this on your other thread for Frederick Charles Harris in which you say you believe that he joined the Army and that it was likely to have been a Staffordshire Regiment - this would suggest that the family had some connection to Staffordshire!
Annette
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bottom of page 2 reply #17?
and a related topic
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=746957.0
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Electoral Roll 1938/9 - found two men of the same name in Stoke Newington, but not at the September 1939 Registration.
Anne
the chap at 109 Dynevor Road Stoke Newington in the 1939 electoral register is not your person of interest.
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Hi,
Firstly, several members of Frederick’s mother’s family worked on the railways and were living in various parts of the country. So, it is more than feasible that Frederick did the same. He might have started working on the trains and then saw an opening in the hotel trade that he preferred.
Annette,
Yes, I did mention a Staffordshire Regiment, sorry, it slipped my mind and I missed it when I re-read the thread. Frederick’s Uncle Jack was a policeman in Staffordshire, and Staffordshire was listed on one of the records I was looking at, but then, as above, Frederick had railway connected relatives in several places.
Dawn,
Thank you for the link, I had found this but it does not give the age of Robert Ernest at baptism.
Leonard was the only brother who served in WW2. Only birthdays were entered in the birthday book.
Thank you for eliminating the Stoke Newington entry.
ScouseBoy,
The 1939 Register just says “hotel waiter”, with the hotel as the household address, so I don’t know.
Related topic on Rootschat.
This is the same Frederick, but I hoped members connected to the London Board may be able to help as well, and you have all very kindly done so.
Thank you all for the other leads, which I’ll follow and report back.
Anne :)
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Dawn,
Thank you for the link, I had found this but it does not give the age of Robert Ernest at baptism.
the censuses infer he was born in 1874/1875 but the baptism was 1884, 10 years later
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Baptisms do not always state a year of birth (or age) when a child is baptised late. Facts: there was no Robert Ernest Harris birth around 1884 anywhere - and we know from the census that his parents are William and Lydia and they are the only William/Lydia Harris living in exactly the right place.
Annette
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Hi,
I was hoping you'd found the official registration of the birth, which I've also failed to do.
Anne
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What about this birth?
March 1874 Downham 4b 367
Harrison, Robert Ernest
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Hi,
That has to be him, thank you. I put Harriss into the BMD search, but not Harrison. And familysearch.org shows so many people called Harris I would never have got to the alternatives.
Anne :)