RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Norfolk => Topic started by: jonwicken on Tuesday 26 April 16 15:53 BST (UK)
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Hi I am trying to find out if I can find out the origins of my ancestor Samuel King.
His death certificate shows he died in Yarmouth on 19 December 1843 at Row 137.
He was 77 years old and cause of death was 'natural decay'.
He was a labourer and the death was registered by his son in law John Burrage.
His youngest two daughter's baptisms and some of his children's marriages (who married after 1837) confirm this labourer occupation with one marriage stating he was a coal heaver.
Samuel's age at death indicates a birth year of c1765 to 1766. But who were his parents?
He married Rose Bower Soanes at Corton, Suffolk, on 5 January 1795. Both witnesses were of the Soanes family.
Their children were:
Samuel King 1795?
Sarah\Sarah Ann King\Burrage 17991873
Francis King 18001839\41
Daniel King 18031866
John King 18041807
Mary King\Horth\Bowman 18061871
Rosetta King\Humphrey\Pye 18091880
Thomas John\John Thomas 'John' King 18111884
Susannah Eleanor King 18131882
Elizabeth King\Rising 18151890
The first two children Samuel and Sarah were baptised in Corton and the third Francis was baptised in Gorleston. All the other children were baptised in Yarmouth.
It is appears there was most probably another pregnancy in 1797 but there are no burials in Corton that I can see so this was presumably a miscarriage or perhaps they had another child in another parish.
The names Thomas, Sarah, Elizabeth and Susannah were the names of his wife's parents and two sisters. Rosetta was evidently a variant of Rose.
Therefore it would seem that Francis, Daniel, John and Mary presumably came from Samuel's family. Given the fact that Francis was an early son it would seem plausible that this was the name of Samuel's father.
However I am at a bit of a dead end with this and so would really appreciate a new pair of eyes.
There is a Samuel King son of Francis King baptised in Blundeston in Suffolk in 1767 but he was buried there in 1768.
So who could my Francis have been?
Any assistance or ideas would be gratefully received!
Many thanks,
Jon
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Oh and to add to things I can't find him in the 1841 census!
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Transcription on NFHS Great Yarmouth St Nicholas
Samuel King and Rose nee Soanes
Rosetta born 11 May 1809 father occupation Baker
John born 16 December 1804 father occ Baker
Thomas John born 1 July 1811 father occ labourer.
Burial St Nicholas
Samuel King age 46 buried 7 March 1841 making his birth date 1795 Possibly the elder son
Poll Books Great Yarmouth
1795 Samuel King-Baker
Samuel King Jr- Baker
1807 Samuel King-Baker
Samuel King Jr- Baker
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Oh my does it give occupations for the children in Great Yarmouth for those dates?
I had no idea I thought there were none given and I knew about the poll books.
So presumably he is a Samuel son of Samuel!
This is a huge breakthrough.
I wonder what happened to him to change his occupation from a baker to a labourer/coal heaver?!
Thank you so much.
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Look at the Norfolk Record Office website particularly Assembly Files ref Y/C
Petition 21 January 1791 by Samuel King for Robert Ferrier Burton to be given a coal meter as he was to become a Baker. (my notes only more info in file) plus more references.
Petition 385 This is when Senior left the trade
William Hall requests his freedom of the city he apprenticed to Samuel King -baker he will compete
his app. with Samuel King Jr. son of Samuel King who is leaving the trade dated 24 February 1800
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Did you notice that the baptism of Daniel born 15 February 1803 his father is Francis King and wife Rose Soanes.
Is Francis, Rose' father given in error instead of child's father Samuel.
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There is a Samuel King son of Samuel and Ann baptised Gt Yarmouth 19 Jan 1772
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hj6/
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Yes I had seen this 1772 baptism and the poll books but until now had not tied in my Samuel to the baker one. I really had no idea occupations were given for this period. I can't tell you ho delighted I am as this was the first line I ever looked at when I started in FH in 1997!
I was also told about this:
Death entry in the Norfolk Chronicle, 3 August 1811.
"Wednesday last, aged 66, Mr Samuel King, Baker, of Yarmouth"
So this must be his father. I assume Samuel was ill before his death and the bakery business was perhaps lost? If they worked together that is of course.
Thanks so much.
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6LNQ-T1B?mode=g&i=51&wc=92BV-HZC%3A30456601%2C29359202%2C29389401%3Fcc%3D1416598&cc=1416598
This register does not list parent occupations so I assume the PRs and BTs give different information?
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Unfortunately there was another Samuel King baptised in 1772 by Samuel and Sarah King, on 29 November.
So there were two Samuel King families in Yarmouth around that time.
Sorting out which is which wont be easy, but heres a start.
Samuel juniors baptism
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6LN7-3L7?mode=g&i=36&wc=92BV-HZF%3A30456601%2C29365801%2C31686502%3Fcc%3D1416598&cc=1416598
Samuel seniors marriage to Sarah Jay, 18 August 1765 at Great Yarmouth
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DRZ4-KY?mode=g&i=74&wc=92B2-SP8%3A30456601%2C29373001%2C32151002%3Fcc%3D1416598&cc=1416598
Yorkslass
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Samuel and Sarah married by licence, so had a look for their Bond luckily it was near the beginning of the book!
Marriage bond for Samuel King and Sarah Jay, in 1765 (both living in Great Yarmouth)
I was very disappointed the marriage bond didnt give Samuels occupation (which they sometimes do) which would have helped.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4CQ-7J9?i=45&wc=M8VJ-PWL%3A160750101%2C160953901%2C161063301%3Fcc%3D1824690&cc=1824690
Yorkslass
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Thanks so much for your help, everyone.
I am confused though as to why the NFHS publication of the Yarmouth baptisms has occupations for Samuel King in his children's baptisms in the registers for the early 1800s, when the ones I have seen do not. Is there any explanations in the notes? I assume this is BT and PR omissions but would like to know for sure.
I two have seen that there were two Samuel Kings both with sons called Samuel so it is making it very confusing.
However from what I can see Samuel King who married Sarah Jay in 1765 was a Methodist:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fRUHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA72&lpg=PA72&dq=%22samuel+king%22+brazier+yarmouth&source=bl&ots=CjcOyiaIV8&sig=wPPjo47Wsfp3DJCOx3dtiMFQ2Cc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiVu_-i367MAhWHPBQKHbG5BM4Q6AEILDAE#v=onepage&q=%22samuel%20king%22%20brazier%20yarmouth&f=false
There is also this inscription for Swanscombe in Kent for his daughter Judith Sarah King/Deverson/Stevens. This states her father was Samuel King was formerly of Yarmouth but later of Beccles, Suffolk.
http://www.kentarchaeology.org.uk/Research/Libr/MIs/MIsSwanscombe/01.htm
"In this vault beneath whose silence had not previously been invaded for nearly a century are interred the remains of Judith Sarah STEVENS the wife of Mr William Stevens solicitor of Hatton Garden. The only grandchild and heir at law of William EVEREST Esq formerly of Fawkham in this County by his daughter Mildred who married Mr William Stevens of Woodmanstone in Surrey. The above named Judith Sarah was the th _ _ _ daughter of the late Mr Samuel KING formerly of Yarmouth and afterwards of Beccles in Suffolk. She died on the 17th day of January 1832 aged 61 years. Her father and mother whose maiden name was JAY were both eminently pious christians and brought up their children in the fear of God and their daughter Judith Sarah followed their bright example in fulfilling the various duties of the daughter, the sister, the wife, the mother and the friend. She was uniformly exemplary taking the Holy Scripture as the only rule of her faith and conduct. Her husband and children with an _ _ _ ( 4 more lines."
I tried to find a death for Samuel King in Beccles and did find a will from 1812.
http://www.dswebhosting.info/Suffolk/SRODServe/dserve.exe?dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Site31&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqCmd=show.tcl&dsqSearch=(RefNo==%27IC%2FAA1%2F232%2F69%27)
Repository: Suffolk Record Office
Title: Original will of Samuel King of Beccles
Ref No: IC/AA1/232/69
However the NRI on findmypast shows the burial entry gives an age and this Samuel King was born in c1773. I therefore assume that this is his son born in Yarmouth in 1772.
Given the fact Judith could write and their religions convictions in founding the Methodist congregation in 1781 (I think from the text) I rather assume that this might well be the Samuel King and Samuel King junior who are listed in the poll books as being braziers.
This would therefore imply that the other 1772 baptism of a Samuel to Samuel and Ann would be my Samuel. However there are two things which make this perhaps unlikely as firstly my Samuel did not name a daughter Ann and secondly there is the 1827 burial of a Samuel King born c1772 in Yarmouth. I therefore assume this is him.
So while we now know that my Samuel was originally a baker and son of Samuel King I do not seem sure of his baptism. His death age implies he was born in c1765-1766 which is a bit older than the 1772 ones and while this could of course be incorrect I am thinking that my Samuel could have been the son of a third Samuel entirely.
However while I am not sure who my Samuel was, the non-conformist Yarmouth Presbyterian registers do seem to heavily imply that he was born in 1743 as the son of Thomas and Mary King. The reason is that the 1743 baptism states that this Thomas King was a baker.
Samuel King, baker of Yarmouth, who died in 1811 (now apparently the father of my Samuel c1765/6-1843) is stated to be 66 in the Norfolk Chronicle and 69 on his burial entry so the ages do fit with this baptism.
I would be most grateful if anyone could offer their thoughts and see if they can help in any other way.
Many thanks,
Jon
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The index of the UK, Register of Duties Paid for Apprentices' Indentures, 1710-1811 show that Samuel King, brazier, is indeed the Samuel who married Sarah Jay.
The entries are for:
Master's Name: Saml King
Apprentice Name: Jno Nicoll
Residence Location: Great Yarmouth, Norfolk
Payment Date: 21 Apr 1787
Master's Name: Saml King
Apprentice Name: Stephen C Collins
Residence Location: Great Yarmouth, Norfolk
Payment Date: 20 Dec 1790
Master's Name: Saml King
Apprentice Name: Jno Crisp
Residence Location: Great Yarmouth, Devon
Payment Date: 25 Jun 1791
Master's Name: Saml King
Apprentice Name: Robt Burgess
Residence Location: Beccles, Suffolk
Payment Date: 5 Nov 1798
Therefore this Samuel King was in Beccles by 1798 so that 1812 burial is surely his son Samuel baptised in 1772.
So that is one branch eliminated and the search continues!
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And there are many Yarmouth poll books listed here which name Samuel King baker up to 1826.
http://www.origins.org.uk/genuki/NFK/places/y/yarmouth/
http://www.origins.org.uk/genuki/NFK/places/parish_links.shtml#voting
So did he become a baker (as stated in those 1800s baptisms of his children), stop being a baker for a time and work as a labourer (as stated in the 1810s baptisms), become a baker (1820s poll books) and then become a labourer again (1843 death certificate)?
Or was there another later Samuel King who was a baker?
The uncertainty continues!
Jon
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Hi again Jon,
I'm wondering now whether the marriage in 1771 between Samuel King and Ann Belson could be your Samuel's parents.
They also married by Licence, but I've been searching the Bonds, and can't find it.
Yokel found a Samuel baptised by Samuel King and Ann.
I have an old CD with some Yarmouth Directories on it - looking at the 1830 Pigotts, there is an Ann King, Baker, living in Gaol Street Yarmouth.
Also a newspaper entry from the Norfolk Chronicle, dated 22 April, 1820, gives a report of a burglary at the premises of Samuel King, Gaol Street.
Yorkslass
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Thanks very much for the reply. All this help has been truly wonderful and the finds so unexpected.
I am not sure about Samuel being the son of Samuel and Ann due to the six year age discrepancy and also the fact a Samuel born c1772 was buried in Yarmouth in 1827. However it could well be the case so I need to keep digging.
And in fact thanks to amondg telling me here about the Assembly files at Norfolk RO, I have found the following entry:
CatalogueRef Y/C 19/37
Title Assembly files
Date 1790-1795
229-244. Petitions for freedom of Philip Proctor apprentice of Francis Seaman and his widow, dated 13 Feb 1795, William Thorndick apprentice of Jacob Preston shipwright, William Mayes apprentice of Benjamin Lane grocer, Henry Glasspoole apprentice of Bernard Bowles ironmonger, Samuel son of Samuel King baker, with baptism certificate, William son of John Story, Abraham son of Jacob Preston deceased, dated 13 Feb 1795 and with baptism certificate, Robert son of John Quinton dated 12 Feb 1795, Henry son of Henry Hastings, dated 9 Feb 1796, Thomas son of John Lancaster deceased, dated 5 Feb 1795, John son of Daniel Gillings, John son of John Crowfoot, Pickering son of William Watson (noted 'The Father is a Breeches-maker lately lived at Yarmouth but now a Below (?at Belaugh)', with baptism certificate (all granted).
So amazingly it appears if I look at this file it will have my Samuel's baptism entry with his petition and prove exactly who his was. I just need to have a look at the file in the Norfolk Record Office!
I really am so pleased about this so thanks all again.
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I looked through all 348 pages of Norfolk marriage license bonds for 1771 but could not find the bond for Samuel King and Ann Belson's marriage either. The men all have occupations on these documents too so what a shame!
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So the photocopy of Great Yarmouth Assembly file Y/C 19/37/233-234 at Norfolk Record Office has now arrived.
This is the document quoted above which I stated included his baptism certificate and so would prove who Samuel was.
It shows that my Samuel King was indeed the son of Samuel King and Ann Belson who were married in Yarmouth in 1771. The images are uploaded here.
My Samuel King who married Rose Bower Soanes was therefore baptised on 19 January 1772 at Yarmouth.
I really can't believe that thanks to rootschat a twenty year block has been lifted, so thank you so much everyone.
The 1812 will of Samuel King, brazier and tinman of Beccles, shows he was indeed the other Samuel King also a son of Samuel baptised in Yarmouth in 1772. He married Sarah Brightly in Yarmouth in 1803 and had a daughter Charlotte, but was buried in Beccles.
The Samuel King aged 55 (so born c1771-1772) who was buried in Yarmouth in 1827 despite the birth age is of currently unknown parentage. He is however presumably the Samuel who married Susanna Whiting\Whitting\Whetton\Whitman and had children baptised in Yarmouth from 1800 to 1815 is unknown. I can't find their marriage so I assume he was not born in Yarmouth and perhaps married outside the town.
On Samuel's petition to become a freeman it states that his namesake father Samuel King was admitted a freeman on 22 March 1764. Does anyone please know how to trace this document to see if it tells me anything about the family beyond this?
Thanks again for all your help.
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The Assembly files start 1767 so alternate proof will have to be found.
*Samuel King married Ann Belson 20 May 1771 at St Nicholas Church Great Yarmouth, witnesses were John Harrison and J Mash.
children found so far, same church.
Samuel bap 19 January 1772
Mary bap 26 February 1775
Sarah bap 7 September 1777
*Samuel (married Ann)was buried 4 August 1811 a widow age 69 giving a birth date of 1742.
It would seem that his father is Thomas King - Baker and wife Mary.
Thomas died 1767 Great Yarmouth - baker and left a will ref NCC will register 151 Errington, year 1767 at the NRO.
Hopefully this gives lineage and if they lived to adulthood the daughters married names.
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If Thomas King is the right one looks as though he married Mary Warnes 10 February 1740/1 at St Nicholas, Great Yarmouth.
Children baptized at the Goal Street Meeting -Presbyterian
Thomas 27 December 1741
Samuel 9 March 1742/3
Mary 13 Feb 1744/5, buried St Nicholas 21 April 1748 dau. of Thomas/ Mary
John Say 23 July 1746, buried St Nicholas 25 March 1747 son of Thomas/Mary
James 9 Feb 1747/8, buried St Nicholas 23 September 1748, son of Thomas/Mary
Mary 31 December 1749, buried St Nicholas 20 September 1752 dau. of Thomas and Mary
Elizabeth 9 June 1751, buried St Nicholas 27 October 1751 dau. of Thomas/Mary
James 18 January 1753, did not find his burial yet.
James 31 March 1754, buried St Nicholas 10 September 1754 son of Thomas/Mary
St Nicholas Baptism
John 11 August 1755, buried 15 August 1755 son of Thomas/Mary King
Joseph 9 December 1757. son of Thomas and Mary King
Poll Book Great Yarmouth 18 April 1754 Thomas King -Baker
All above found on Norfolk Family History Society Transcriptions
Gentleman's Magazine February 1755
Thomas King- Baker/Food/Drink of Great Yarmouth, Bankrupt.
found on ancestry.
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Thank you so much for all this information.
I had not seen the 1767 will which is a fantastic find and I have just emailed the NRO about ordering a copy.
I had found 1767 and 1784 burials for a Thomas King in Yarmouth but thanks to this information I now know the former must be his.
I also had not found all those burials for their children. Although having checked everything, the 1754 baptism you have for a James is in fact an Ann so the 1754 burial for a James is actually for the one born in 1753.
This really is remarkable.
I assume that as Thomas King was declared bankrupt in February 1755 it must account for his last two children being baptised at St Nicholas' and not the Presbyterian Church.
Joseph born in 1757 was also a baker and appears to have died in 1824.
As of yet I have not found out what happened to Thomas and Ann. But it gives a grim picture of infant mortality with only four of eleven children apparently surviving childhood.
The John Jay King born in 1746 is interesting as presumably Jay was a family surname which will hopefully fit in somewhere along the line.
What I would really like to try and find is more information on Samuel King being made free in 1764. This will presumably list his father and will hopefully have more clues.
There is a leaflet here on it:
http://www.archives.norfolk.gov.uk/view/NCC098508
Can anyone please shed on any light on how to see this?
Thanks so much for all your help again.
Jon
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Yesterday I found a very interesting piece of information on the King family in 'The Perlustration of Great Yarmouth, with Gorleston and Southtown vol 1' by Palmer, Charles John, (pub 1872).
This is found in a footnote and reads, 'John Say, who died in 1749, devised a small estate at Swanton Abbott to Thomas King, who died in 1767, and who was the great grandfather of Thomas William King, Esq., York Herald, a native of Yarmouth'.
The post of York Herald of Arms in Ordinary is an officer of arms at the College of Arms. More information can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Herald
Now as it appears that my ancestor was this Thomas King who died in 1767, what I would like to try and find out is where this Thomas William King's papers and research might have gone on his own family.
He did research on other families and given this information it seems clear he must have researched his own family. The only question is where this paperwork may have come from!
I have emailed the College of Arms and await to see if they can help at all on this.
Thomas William King was born in Yarmouth in 1801 as the son of Thomas King and Mary Ann Nuthall. They married in 1800.
This Thomas King was presumably the one born in Yarmouth in 1774, son of Thomas King and Sarah Webb who married in 1771.
And then this Thomas King was presumably the one born in Yarmouth in 1741 as the son of Thomas King (d. 1767) and Mary Warnes who married in 1740/1.
This would then correctly make Thomas William King (1801-1872) the great grandson of Thomas King (d. 1767). However of course to be able to see any research Thomas William King did on his family would be amazing. But if course I have yet to know if it even survives!
Best wishes,
Jon
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Hi again,
Thomas William King is also mentioned in the Perlustration Volume 2 - a bit more info - and it also mentions Samuel (briefly)
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=njp.32101062190416;view=1up;seq=185
Yorkslass
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Oh this is fascinating! Hadn't seen that. Thank you.
I think there is an index to these 'Perlustration' volumes on Yarmouth published in 1986.
These might have more King references in them which could be useful so will have to try and view that.
But this is just great news. Can't believe how how far I have been able to move the King family back thanks to rootschat.
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I have just found this online about Thomas William King in a book about the York Herald published in 1963 and to be found here:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/bk16/pp182-193
31. THOMAS WILLIAM KING, F.S.A.
Rouge Dragon, Gazette 20, pat. 25 May, salary from 14 May 1833.
York, E.M. wt. 9, Gazette 17, pat. 24 June, salary from 9 June 1848.
S. of Thomas King of Great Yarmouth; b. there 1802; d. 4 February 1872; Rouge Dragon 1833 and later York. Treasurer of the College en titre 1848 having performed the duties since 1833; 1866 owed College £987 and College agreed to accept in part payment, at valuation £300, 142 volumes of his heraldic and genealogical collections, including 60 relating to history of Great Yarmouth, and several others concerning the College and heralds.
F.S.A. 1836, member of Council 1844, etc.; founder member of Cocked Hat Club; original member of British Archaeological Association; wrote article on heraldry in Encyclopaedia Britannica (before 1863); contributed many papers to Archaeologia, J. Brit. Arch. Assoc. and other learned periodicals.
Was Clerk in College before appointment as Rouge Dragon; regular attendant and highly competent officer; considerable private practice.
Arms granted 1835: Azure, on a fess argent between 3 falcons rising, belled or, a dragon passant looking backwards gules. Crest: On a mount vert a dragon as in the arms with a collar embattled & counter-embattled & chain over the back or. Motto: Draconis Metuenda Corolla.
So the College of Arms must have his documents on various families and I assume his own on the King family! This is all rather exciting as I wonder what he might have written on the King family.
All for now,
Jon
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I have just posted the below as a reply to https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=888131.0 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=888131.0) but am posting here as well.
My belief through the help of this thread that my ancestor Samuel King (widower of Rose Soanes|King) d. December 1843 aged 77 years was in fact the son of Samuel King and Ann Belson baptised in January 1772 has now been shown to be incorrect.
My believe for this came from this thread and the fact that Norfolk FHS lists the father's occupation on early baptisms as a baker.
I asked here regarding why "baker" was recorded on the transcribed entries but not on the original parish register:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=764433.0 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=764433.0)
I thought is was a bit off that Samuel King's age on his death certificate and burial was 77 so born c1766, as the son of baker Samuel King senior was baptised in January 1772. Also a bit off was the fact my Samuel didn't name a child Ann after his apparent mother.
However the apparent "baker" occupation on his children's baptisms and then applying for the freeman of Yarmouth documents seemed to show this was all correct and just an error in age at death, which is not uncommon.
However, last month I was in Great Yarmouth and visited the library. I looked at transcriptions of the gravestones in the churchyard of St Nicholas' (now Great Yarmouth Minster) in the 19th century, many of whom are now lost, presumably in the World War 2 bombing.
This volumes are "Inscriptions in St Nicholas' Churchyard Great Yarmouth 1830-1834" transcribed by William de Castre in 1917. There are some later gravestone transcriptions also included by another source made after the 1830s.
The husband of Ann Belson|King once had a gravestone there and it records him as Samuel King died 31st May 1811 aged 69 years. Buried with him and named on the same gravestone were Susanna King died 8th December 1818 aged 45 and Samuel King husband of Susanna died 23rd May 1827 aged 55.
This therefore shows that it was not my Samuel who died in 1843 that was the son of baker Samuel King who died in 1811, but rather the Samuel King who married Susannah Whitting in 1798 by licence. This Samuel died in 1827 and his age of 55 matches with the 1772 baptism.
So I am left with two questions:
1. Why does the Norfolk FHS transcription have my Samuel as a baker on his children's early baptisms as the occupation when this is not in the original registers?
2. Who on earth was my Samuel King (c1766-1843) who married Rose Soanes in Corton in 1795? I am back to square one again!
Any help would be appreciated!
Jon
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I am sorry for your disappointment about Samuel King, especially as some years ago in 2016 you thought it was the right Samuel, and had cracked the case, but then find some new evidence that totally goes against what you have found.
I know the feeling sometimes, trying to find the origins of a certain ancestor can be like trying to win the lottery.
If he could be traceable on the 1841 census, that would give whether born in county or not.
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I am sorry for your disappointment about Samuel King, especially as some years ago in 2016 you thought it was the right Samuel, and had cracked the case, but then find some new evidence that totally goes against what you have found.
I know the feeling sometimes, trying to find the origins of a certain ancestor can be like trying to win the lottery.
If he could be traceable on the 1841 census, that would give whether born in county or not.
Thanks for the reply. It is a shame but a new mystery to crack now and I do like to revisit things and make sure my tree is correct. Sadly I think though my untrue discovery will be replicated in various ancestry trees now, but can't be helped. Hopefully King researchers will stumble across this thread.
Regarding the 1841 census, sadly I have not found Samuel King on it. I know from his 1843 death certificate that he was living in Row 137 in December 1843. I have found his family in the 1841 census who at Row 137 here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8978/images/NFKHO107_793_794-0301?pId=8711110 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8978/images/NFKHO107_793_794-0301?pId=8711110)
Five of his children are in the house with their families, namely Sarah King|Burrage, Daniel King, Susannah Eleanor King, Rosetta King|Pye and Elizabeth King|Rising in three separate households.
Samuel King is not with them and I have not identified him elsewhere as yet.
So where was he on census night of 6 June 1841?
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Hi
Since your original post have you found the daughter Ann?
Baptised at Gorleston, 27 August 1797
Born 10 August
Daughter of Samuel King & Rose his wife (late Rose Soans Spinster)
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Hi
Since your original post have you found the daughter Ann?
Baptised at Gorleston, 27 August 1797
Born 10 August
Daughter of Samuel King & Rose his wife (late Rose Soans Spinster)
Hello, no I haven't!
I always assumed there must have been a pregnancy between Samuel in 1795 and Sarah in 1799, but assumed something must have happened.
This is all rather extraordinary, where have you come across this baptism of this Ann please?
And what became of this Ann?!
Thank you for looking and posting!
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Goodness, just found it!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61045/records/1504848051?tid=5705813&pid=112661396574&queryId=d1c51659-0e48-427b-98e1-1ef74f76946e&_phsrc=VSl11336&_phstart=successSource (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61045/records/1504848051?tid=5705813&pid=112661396574&queryId=d1c51659-0e48-427b-98e1-1ef74f76946e&_phsrc=VSl11336&_phstart=successSource)
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I'm afraid I don't know what happened to Ann, but I am glad you have found her now!
Going on names of their children, and taking into account Rose's family (if I have the right one!), everything would seem to point to Samuel being the son of Francis and Ann in Blundeston.
But it can't be, because that Samuel died in infancy :(
It's all very puzzling.
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I also have some ancestors from Gorleston and Corton as well in the 1700s, the Fairweather's.
I mentioned in your other thread about Yarmouth settlement records that I found a Samuel King baptised in Gorleston 21 August 1770, son of Samuel and Elizabeth King. However I found a marriage in 1791 of a Samuel King in Gorleston to Susannah Heins, so likely rules out your Samuel who wed Rose Soanes in 1796 in Corton. The marital status of the 1796 marriage of Samuel to Rose was not given but I did find the banns which says he was a single man.
Looking at all other Samuel King's baptised across Norfolk 1762-1772 I have a few baptised in Norwich and one or two in Ridlington near North Walsham. Your Blundeston one born 1766 seems to have died as an infant. Maybe he had a younger brother born soon after who was not baptised.
A Jay Samuel King was baptised in Gt Yarmouth in 1766, son of Samuel and Sarah but it seems you have already ruled that one out have you?
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I'm afraid I don't know what happened to Ann, but I am glad you have found her now!
Going on names of their children, and taking into account Rose's family (if I have the right one!), everything would seem to point to Samuel being the son of Francis and Ann in Blundeston.
But it can't be, because that Samuel died in infancy :(
It's all very puzzling.
This line was the first one I ever researched in 1997 and so for you to find Ann and fill the gap is very exciting, so thanks again!
Yes absolutely, he looks like he is that Samuel King of Blundeston but yes as you say he died in infancy.
I even got the will of Francis King of Blundeston that was proved in 1806 in case the burial register was wrong, but Samuel isn't in the will, just his son David.
I actually think that as Samuel and Rose King named their first son Samuel in 1795, that Samuel himself was perhaps also the son of a Samuel.
Now you have found Ann born in 1797 and Rose Soanes|King has no Anns in her family, I am starting to wonder if my Samuel King born c1766 could have been the son of another Samuel and Ann King.
Could his grandfather or uncle have been a Francis King?
I have just seen the burial of a Samuel King in Gorleston on 18 July 1796 aged 55, so born c1740-1741. I wonder if this could perhaps be his father.
A lot more digging to do!
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A Jay Samuel King was baptised in Gt Yarmouth in 1766, son of Samuel and Sarah but it seems you have already ruled that one out have you?
I think he is probably the Samuel King who was buried in 1770. Samuel King and Sarah Jay|King then had another son Samuel King baptised in 1772 who died in 1812, so I don't think my Samuel is Jay Samuel King.
Also the only child named in Francis King of Blundeston's will dated 1 January 1806 is his son David King born in 1770. No other children are mentioned, so I assume they must all have died.
Thanks so much again for looking.
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I have just seen the burial of a Samuel King in Gorleston on 18 July 1796 aged 55, so born c1740-1741. I wonder if this could perhaps be his father.
Oh no this must be the husband of Elizabeth Shaul, who he married in 1767 and had that son Samuel you mentioned:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61043/records/1504705382?tid=&pid=&queryId=05c3ecaf-ab26-4810-987a-38739d968533&_phsrc=VSl11370&_phstart=successSource (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/61043/records/1504705382?tid=&pid=&queryId=05c3ecaf-ab26-4810-987a-38739d968533&_phsrc=VSl11370&_phstart=successSource)
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The Samuel King who died as an infant in 1768 had a brother Daniel, of Blundeston, baptised about 1772 or 1773 I think. And your Samuel King of GY had a son called Daniel with Rose Soanes. Likely coincidence, or the Blundeston family is part of your Samuel's extended family.
I double checked the original 1768 entry in the original register and it is deffo a burial, sometimes I have seen a transcript say burial but the original is a baptism.
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Hello and thank you to everyone for all your help.
I wanted to let you know that after nearly 30 years of searching (with a good few years barking up the wrong tree) I have solved the mystery of who my ancestor Samuel King was.
With the paper trail going cold, I decided to look at the DNA evidence and see if that could help.
I have clustered all my King matches and did a search in the family who had an ancestor with the name King in their tree.
One came up whose grandfather was Harry Charles King (1897-1962) and so I started to research this person and their ancestry.
Tracing the line back myself from scratch I got back to a Thomas King of Weston (1775-1843).
He is in the 1841 census there aged 65 and beneath him in the census was a Daniel King who was older than he was aged 75 years.
Given the fact the name Daniel was given to one of my Samuel King's sons, it felt like this really could be the moment which revealed everything.
And indeed is was.
This Daniel King was born in 1761 and died in 1845 in Weston. It appeared on the face of it that Thomas and Daniel were brothers.
Interestingly, I visited the small church at Weston in January as I had found another line of mine, the Gooda family, were buried there. And here was another link to the place.
I looked on the Suffolk Record Office for wills of the King family and found that Daniel King had a will proved in 1845...
Original will of Daniel King of Weston. Suffolk Record Office Reference Number IC/AA1/265/24: https://www.suffolkarchives.co.uk/collections/getrecord/GB173_IC_AA1_265_24 (https://www.suffolkarchives.co.uk/collections/getrecord/GB173_IC_AA1_265_24)
I bought a copy of the will and as I read it I was happy to see that it named the following people:
Executors: Nephews Daniel King of Yarmouth and Henry King of Beccles.
Beneficiaries: Children of late brother Samuel King and James Ellis and his daughters Maria Reynolds and Ann Ellis, and Elizabeth King [sister-in-law, widow of brother Thomas King].
Witnesses: C.T. Scott and Charlotte King [niece].
The executor Daniel King of Yarmouth was Samuel King's son, who was evidently named after his brother, so I had now finally traced my Samuel's line and found his brothers. The next thing to do was to find his parents.
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The family it seems all comes from Wenhaston, Blythburgh, Sotherton & Weston.
Daniel King (before 17391812) married firstly Ann|Anna Jex|King (before 17441769) at Blythburgh in 1769. He was living at Bulcamp and she was of Westhall. She was buried at Sotherton on 20 October 1769, presumably as a maternal death. They had the following children baptised in Sotherton:
1. Daniel King (17601760)
2. Daniel King (17611845) A yeoman who later lived in Weston and who does not appear to have married. He died on 28 February 1845 and was buried at Blythburgh on 6 March 1845. His will was dated 8 April 1844 and proved 5 March 1845. His will shows he owned a "Messuage or Tenement situated in the parish of Uggeshall in the county of Suffolk comprising the dwelling house and wind-mill now in the occupation of William Rockhill". His gravestone survives: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/125277121/daniel-king (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/125277121/daniel-king)
3. John King (1762?). It is not yet known what happened to him.
4. Ann King (1764?). It is not yet known what happened to her.
5. Samuel King (17671843) My ancestor who married Rose Bower Soanes in Corton in 1795 and had 11 children in Corton, Gorleston and Yarmouth between 1795 and 1815, including Daniel King of Yarmouth who was executor to his uncle Daniel King's will in 1845.
6. Thomas King (17691769)
Daniel King married secondly Elizabeth Barber on 2 July 1771 at Sotherton, Suffolk. He was buried on 3 October 1812 at Blythburgh and was from Southwold. She was buried on 7 September 1843 at Blythburgh, Suffolk, aged 93 and was also of Southwold. Her gravestone survives: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/125277123/elizabeth-king (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/125277123/elizabeth-king). They had the following children:
7. Elizabeth King (1771?)
8. James King (1773?)
9. Thomas King (17751843). He married Elizabeth Sowter in 1806 at Sotherton and had 9 children between 1807 and 1820, including Henry King of Beccles who was executor to his uncle Daniel King's will in 1845. He and his wife were buried in Weston, where their table tomb still survives: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/202918453/thomas-king (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/202918453/thomas-king) and https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/202918451/elizabeth-king (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/202918451/elizabeth-king)
10. Judith King (1776?)
11. Sarah King (1778?)
12. Jane King (1779?)
13. Jane King (1780?)
14. Deborah King (1782?)
15. William King (1784?)
16. Robert King (1786?)
17. Daniel King (1788?). Daniel King senior named a second son Daniel, despite his elder son also named Daniel born 27 years earlier still being alive.
18. Sophia King (1791?)
The lives of most of these children are not yet known about.
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Voters register for Great Yarmouth 1841
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6PC3-L8R
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Voters register for Great Yarmouth 1841
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6PC3-L8R
Thank you very much for this link which I had not seen before.
It is particularly interesting to me as it has my ancestor Samuel King (1766/7-1843) as being eligible to vote as he had freehold houses in Rows No. 137 and 138 in Great Yarmouth.
His son Daniel King (1803-1866) is also eligible to vote as he had a freehold house at Cart and Horse Row, which is what Row 137 was known as.
In the 1841 census, Samuel's adult children and their families are all in one house together in Row 137, but Samuel is not with them.
The five adult children living together in three households were Daniel King, Sarah King|Burrage Rosetta King|Humphrey|Pye, Susanna Eleanor King and Elizabeth King|Rising:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8978/images/NFKHO107_793_794-0301?pId=8711105 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8978/images/NFKHO107_793_794-0301?pId=8711105)
Thanks again for this.
Kind regards,
Jon
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It is good that you could break down the King brickwall via the DNA method. Yes it will be common that many with family/ancestors from Gt Yarmouth will descend from Suffolk people due to being so near. One of my Suffolk ancestors was friends with an Edmund Coleman, a GY innholder in the 1780s as they both signed an admin for someone who died intestate.
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It is good that you could break down the King brickwall via the DNA method. Yes it will be common that many with family/ancestors from Gt Yarmouth will descend from Suffolk people due to being so near. One of my Suffolk ancestors was friends with an Edmund Coleman, a GY innholder in the 1780s as they both signed an admin for someone who died intestate.
Thank you. Yes I couldn't believe it when Daniel King's will made the link absolutely clear. But frustrating that the incorrect tree I originally made has been copied over and over again in ancestry family trees and there is no way to correct or highlight this to anyone so it just gets copied again and again! That sounds like an interesting discovery you made. I like to try and find out about the friends our ancestors had from marriage or will witnesses.
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I know the feeling from your previous posts before, you find someone who you think is an ancestor and add them to your tree, but there is a small something not quite right (such as the age thing), then find the evidence to refute it and it disproves them, such as the headstones you found in GY cemetery. Back to the drawing board, but then later on via DNA or other evidence you find the correct line.
I have ancestors from Wenhaston as well but the Pearson family in the mid 1700s. Hopefully the Ancestry Suffolk records will come online soon, they say this summer.