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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Tracey Asteroid on Tuesday 26 April 16 14:32 BST (UK)
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Hi and thanks for reading!
I have a pic of a wedding certificate for my husbands great-great-great grandparents: Patrick Joseph HOWARD to Blanch EVANS on the 30 November 1892 in Coonamble NSW. They were married by the minister of the Church of England and it is registered as certificate 3429 in the NSW registry.
Patrick is noted to be a 31 year old Laborer, who might have been born in Campbelltown (black mark over middle of this word/words), though usually residing in Coonamble. His parents are listed as John Thomas HOWARD, a miner, and Anne HOWARD (KEANE).
The most likely birth certificate I have identified is for a Patrick HOWARD born to John HOWARD and Johannah (no maiden name) in Scone, NSW 1864. This, of course, only works if the "Campbelltown" on the wedding certificate was wrong, and if his mother used Anne instead of Johannah. This would also make him 28 when getting married..... and that is just too many discrepancies for me to be comfortable with.
I have been unable to identify any possible death certificate matches. His last child was born in 1909 in Quambone, NSW so his death must have been after that. There is no matching records of any Howard's in the Coonamble or Quambone cemeteries. Though I do have an electoral match for him and his wife, living in Quambone in 1913.
I also know that his wife, Blanch, died in the Sacred Heart Hospice in Sydney in 1920, so maybe he was living in Sydney with one of his children at that time (????). The children (who were all listed on his wife's death certificate and confirmed with birth certificate records) are:
Michael Henry (1893-1967)
Kathleen Alice (1895-1977)
Teresa Sophia (1897-1985) * my husband's great, great grandmother
Mary Philomena (1899-)
Minnie (1903-)
Irene Blanch (1905-1989)
who were all born in Coonamble. The last two born in Quambone:
John Joseph (1908-)
Patrick James (1909-)
I would really like to find out where Patrick Snr was born and confirm who his parents were. I am on a mission to track down how all the ancestors in my kids family trees arrived in Australia, so I am not that worried about locating a death certificate (though if you find one, I will not say no!).
Thanks again for reading,
Tracey
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Hi and welcome to Rootschat
May I ask for some further information from that NSW marriage cert.
:) Who were the witnesses (perhaps extended family :) )
:) What denomination for the ceremony oops according to the rites of so it was C of E at Coonamble :) ....
Does the picture of the Wedding Certificate show that the NSW BDM has fully reconciled their holdings with the church registers?
There's several different locations for Campbelltown :) so is there any marks to suggest it was not the NSW Campbelltown?
Campbelltown New South Wales
Campbelltown South Australia
Campbell Town Tasmania
Campbelltown Victoria
I will have a look through some of my Western Division of NSW offline resources and post back shortly.
Cheers, JM (edited to sort out the denomination, I had missed that info from the Opening post)
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NSW Electoral Roll 1902/3 DARLING, polling at
Coonamble
Arthur John HOWARD, of Coorawang, selector
Patrick HOWARD, of Coonamble, labourer
Quambone NONE with the surname HOWARD :)
NSW ER 1878 THE BOGAN
John HOWARD, residence, Balar
Richard HOWARD, residence, Balar
Samuel C HOWARD, freehold Coonabarabran
Patrick KEAN, residence, Dubbo, Macquarie River
NSW ER 1870 THE BOGAN
Charles Augustus HOWARD, residence, Coonamble, Castlereagh River
Cheers, JM
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Hi
From Blanch's death registration what was her status .... widow, or married woman? Who was the informant .... Patrick or someone else?
Is this her?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/16882316 smh 3 Jan 1921 ... (8 1/2 Eaton Street, Camperdown)
NSW BDM online has Blanch A HOWARD. #15/1921
Rookwood has Blanch A HOWARD, aged 47, service 3 Jan 1921 burial Sec*M2*4**683
http://www.catholiccemeteries.com.au/deceased-search/
I wonder if Patrick was older than 31 when they married. Blanch would have needed consent to marry as she was not yet 21 in 1892.
Re Camperdown address .... City of Sydney Archives has uploaded, so free to search :) the Sands Directories. Enjoy :)
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/learn/search-our-collections/sands-directory
Cheers, JM
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Hi Tracey,
I am not sure how familiar you are with the NSW BDM marriage records 1856-1895, but basically Civil registration commenced in NSW in 1856, but the Churches and the Registrar General’s Office did not co-operate with each other until 1895, so NSW marriages prior to 1895 often have blanks in various columns. When all the columns have the full information, then the document includes notations showing how NSW BDM obtained that information.
From an online submitted tree, I see a certificate issued by NSW BDM back in July 1993. The current format used is different again from that record, but the same information should be available.
Anyway, looking at that image I notice that it has been altered by others, without the NSW BDM officers validating the changes.
Some of the alterations are printed, perhaps to ‘enhance’ the longhand writing of the Reverend in whose hand it was recorded and sent to NSW BDM.
This is my transcription of the document as it currently reads
24
30 November 1892
Coonamble
Patrick Joseph HOWARD, Bachelor, born Campbelltown, Labourer, 31, usual residence Coonamble, with parents as John Thomas HOWARD, a miner and Anne Howard KEANE,
And
Blanch EVANS, Spinster, born The Merri Merri nr (near) Coonamble, Dressmaker, 21, usual residence, Coonamble, with parents as William EVANS, labourer and Sophia Evans COE,
Witnesses Michael GRAYNDLES and Mary EVANS.
Married in the house of Mr JUDD, according to the rites of the Church of England, by John A COOPER, Officiating Minister
May I please mention that I find it very unusual for the ages of the bride and groom, and their parents names to be noted on a rural NSW marriage in 1892, particularly as it is a C of E marriage.
May I suggest that the mc was obtained in 8 July 1993, and since that time various people have considered and researched and ADDED information to it. For example, likely they have added the names of the parents of both the bride and the groom. I expect they obtained that information from the Church register. There is NOTHING on the document to show that NSW BDM had reconciled this mc to the Church registers.
May I mention that the Rev Cooper’s handwriting ought to be the ONLY handwriting on the record, and that from his signature you can see that he does NOT form the ‘r’ to end a word in the same way as the person who printed Labourer or Dressmaker. May I also mention that it is unusual for both the married surname and the maiden surname to be noted under the heading mother’s name and maiden surname. I would expect it to show only the maiden surname and any other former surnames, but NOT the then current surname for their mothers. (All the details in that column are not in the Reverend’s hand, and I would NOT actually anticipate to find any info under that heading UNLESS the NSW BDM document noted which register provided that information, and when it had been reconciled.
In the ‘white space’ at the bottom of the document, in someone else’s longhand, I read
Blanche Anne Evans
born 20/5/1872 Baptised 22/4/1873 by Rev Henry Dicker, Parish of Coonamble, County of Leichhardt.
Daughter of John and Sophia Evans, - Farmer
Yarra Yarra Quambone.
I ASSURE YOU that that is definitely NOT information provided by NSW BDM based on the registration of the marriage.
It may well be accurate information, but, just like the information regarding Blanch's and Patrick's ages, places of birth, occupations details of his parents, it is not information that was supplied to the NSW BDM when registering the marriage.
May I suggest you consider obtaining an official transcription of the 1892 marriage. If those elusive blanks are on that transcription, then my advice would be to consider the following thread which I prepared some years ago now. The Official transcribers transcribe the NSW BDM register, and if the 1892 marriage has been reconciled by NSW BDM, they will note the NSW BDM references for those additions to the mc. :)
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,546609.0.html
Cheers, JM
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Re the death of Blanch(e) HOWARD, registered Jan 1921.
There is no "Eaton St" in Camperdown but there is an Eton St. According to the Sands Directory (which JM kindly linked), Jan 1921, Arthur BURSILL lived at 81/2 Eton St. Kathleen A HOWARD, the eldest daughter of Patrick and Blanch married Robert E BURSILL in 1919 so it seems safe to assume that this is the connection.
Not that it's any help in finding Patrick!
Judith
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Anyway, looking at that image I notice that it has been altered by others, without the NSW BDM officers validating the changes.
Cheers, JM
Wow! :o
So the name of Blanch's father (William) has probably been transcribed from the death cert (his name was John) so you have to wonder where the forger got the information about her mother and Patrick's parents. It would be good to think that they did access the church registers, but goodness me it could be just nonsense.
Debra :)
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Exactly Debra, which is why I am suggesting obtaining the Official Transcription.
Cheers, JM
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There is a death on the Queensland Death Register Index for a Patrick HOWARD in 1951 in Brisbane.
Reg # B35201 In remarks it says born NSW aged 84 years. This if correct, gives a birth year of 1867.
Whoops, :-[ no parent names are on the register.
https://www.bdm.qld.gov.au/IndexSearch/querySubmit.m?ReportName=DeathSearch
There are a few incidents with a person by that name in the period 1920 in the newspapers, mostly around the St George area and a property called WYENBAH. This is from a search on TROVE. See:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hj8/
Neil
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Oh my goodness - the whole marriage certificate could be WRONG!
It took me a while to unscramble the parents of Blanch (and it was definitely Sophia and John, not William - who is John's older brother!), but if the parent information was not on the original, and has been added later, then both may be wrong. Ugh!
Thanks for all your help JM. It never would have occurred to me that some of the info was added later, so I could have been stuck researching the wrong people forever. And it looks like you found the copy of the wedding certificate I have been working from, so I don't have to try and figure out what the name of the second witness was (the other witness Ann EVANS was Blanch's younger sister). I am going to have to order a copy of that wedding certificate obviously.
Hmmmm. I wonder if Campbell Town, Tasmania is an option for Patrick's birth. One of the public tree's on Ancestory has Tasmania as Patrick's place of birth, though I have seen no evidence of it. Assuming the Campbell/Town is correct, I can search at each one for Patrick's birth.
Thanks for tracking down the electoral roll info. I will go through that again, and see if I can link any of those Howard's together.... it seems odd to me that they had 8 kids but none of them ended up staying in Coonamble or Quambone. That would suggest that whole family moved to Sydney when the kids were young maybe.
Yes! That is Blanch's funeral notice at trove. Though it looks like there is no picture of her grave uploaded to any of the cemetery indexes yet. I was hoping that Patrick would be buried with her, but nothing is ever easy.
Thank you Judith! Yep, that would be were they were living when Blanch was in the hospice then. I have never used the SANDS directory before, but it looks like I am about the learn! I might be able to track down the rest of the kids and figure out when they moved to Sydney.
Also thanks Neil! I will have a look at the St George Patrick Howard. One of the public trees on ancestry puts Patrick's death as being in 1920, the same year as Blanch, but I have found no evidence of it. Modified to add: this is a really good catch Neil. Patrick's oldest son Michael apparently died at St George, Qld in 1967
More work to do :)
Thank you!
Tracey
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It also looks like I will contacting the Coonamble Family History group soon! Thanks again JM.
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Observation: How odd is it that Blanch and Patrick were married by a Church of England minister, but then Blanch was buried in the Catholic section of Rookwood cemetery, and their eldest son listed RC as his religion on his enlistment paper in 1916?
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I think you may find that some of them stayed in / returned to Coonamble.
NSW Deposition Register is indexed at NSW State Records online :)
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/indexes-online/court-records/index-to-criminal-depositions-received-1849-1921
I think Michael Henry and John are listed
Cheers, JM
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Observation: How odd is it that Blanch and Patrick were married by a Church of England minister, but then Blanch was buried in the Catholic section of Rookwood cemetery, and their eldest son listed RC as his religion on his enlistment paper in 1916?
I think one of those submitted trees has uploaded a document noting a "Conditional Baptism" for Blanch in 1916 and I think it is a Roman Catholic priest who performed the ceremony.
Cheers, JM
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Ahhh, thanks JM
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Do you have a birth certificate for a child born to Patrick and Blanch...to see birthplace of parents?
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No birth certificates for the kids, just what is in the online indexes. Might have to order one, but I'll wait and see what the original wedding certificate says first.
thanks!
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So I got a copy of the original wedding certificate. No ages, place of birth or parents listed at all.
Coonamble does have a family history group, but I have started by asking at the Coonamble history museum (maybe a picture of the family will show up!). Then I will contact both the Anglican and Catholic churches to see if either has anymore information.
I have found tracking down what happened to Patrick and Blanche's kids a headache as well. I am still working on it, but the whole family has this 'under the radar' thing going on. I will keep chipping away at it.
In the meantime, I have been trying to work from the other direction, and have tracked down two Patrick HOWARDs in Tasmania in the 1800's. I have managed to confirm that neither is my guy. I have already eliminated Campbell Town in South Australia (no HOWARDs there), so now I have decide if I want to tackle NSW or Vic next. Neither is a very attractive option!
I will keep updating as I discover more information. Maybe one day someone will come across this thread and find the answers they need :)
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May I please ask for the denomination and the clergyman's name as per the marriage cert. Also you may find that the witnesses are connected to the family. I urge you to consider contacting the diocese office for the church noted on the marriage cert. The Diocese archives would be the usual place to find the completed parish registers. The family history groups may well have transcribed the parish registers, or at least part of these. If you contact either the Diocese or the family history groups, please do consider sharing a photocopy of the NSW BDM document so that they have all the details to work with. If it is the NSW BDM certificate, sometimes the local reference number is in the initial column. :)
Cheers, JM
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http://www.bathurstanglican.org.au/Parishes/Parishes.html
I am assuming that the Rev Cooper married the couple according to the rites of the Church of England. :) and that that part of the image had not been altered.
Coonamble is in the Bathurst Diocese, so the link above may be helpful.
Cheers, JM
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Yes, that part appears to be correct JM.
Bathurst Diocese it is!
Edited to add: I rang the Bathurst Registry office at the Diocese. They were very friendly and helpful, and are going to see if they can track down the record for me. :)
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Yes, I have always found the various archivists at any denomination's main office to be friendly, understanding and willing to help. They are often volunteers.
Cheers, JM
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I haven't forgotten about this!
The Rev Tym from Coonamble Anglican Church is going to look up the original details for me (the records are still kept at the parish, not at the Bathurst diocese) when he gets back from his holiday in two weeks ;D
I am looking forward to a little bit of clarification!
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Sometimes it can take many months for volunteers to get through all the look up requests. :) so I think family history buffs are among the most patient people around :)
Cheers, JM
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Hi
I am tracing this line for my friend who is the great grand daughter of Patrick Joseph Howard who married in 1892 Blanche Anne Evans.
I would like contact