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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: GeorgiyH on Sunday 24 April 16 06:04 BST (UK)
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Hello,
I am trying to find some information on Louis Carpentier, a French refugee of the 1790s who settled in Harpley Norfolk. His gravestone reads: A native of France who fled his country in the year 1793 and entered into the service of the Revd Christopher Spurgeon, late rector of this Parish. He served his master faithfully during a period of 36 years and died on the 7th of February 1829 aged 72 years. The family of Mr Spurgeon with feelings of gratitude for his long and faithful service have placed this to his memory.'
So born around 1757, a couple of trees on ancestry have his parents as Phillipe Joseph Carpentier and Marie Rozier, but I can not find any proof of this, nor any information as to where in France he was born. Any help would be most welcome.
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"In 1794, the Chapter of St. Ursmer in Binche was as follows Provost born : Vulgise Vigneron , abbot of Lobbes - Dean Philippe Joseph Carpentier"
Memories of Hainut (Belguim??)
http://hainaut.mariemont.museum/Upload_Mariemont/Images_Docs/CDH/ELB-MRM-C833_08.pdf
Maybe investigating his father might turn up clues?
Marie Genevieve Rozier aged 24 married Philippe Carpentier on the 19th of Feburary 1770 at Raray, Oise, Picardy region of northern France.
http://french-genealogy.typepad.com/genealogie/2011/04/array-of-notarial-records.html
http://archives.oise.fr/ Oise archives - free registration
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Hmm, so if Louis was born around 1757, maybe this Phillipe is a brother rather than father, considering when he got married.
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Yes, very good point
"Lobbes Abbey
In 1794, the last abbot, Vulgise de Vignron, and 43 monks were expelled from the monastery by French revolutionary troops. Under the law of 2 September 1796 the abbey was dissolved. Most of the monastic buildings, including the abbey church of Saint Peter, were destroyed."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobbes_Abbey
A Benedictine abbey?
"When a man became ordained, and moved into the episcopium with the rest of the bishop's familia; then there would usually also be a requirement for support to their mothers, wives and daughters; and the orders of widows and virgins respectively continued largely for this purpose."
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Even looking at this death record
LOUIS CARPENTIER
Norfolk, 1839
Event Quarter, 3
District, FREEBRIDGE LYNN
Giving a possible later birth date of 1767 that is still before the 1770 marriage.
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That particular death record is of a son.
The Oise archives may be good - assuming that he is from there, but my French is practically non-existant!
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The Louis Carpentier buried in Norfolk, 13/7/1839 was aged 30, according to Freereg.
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Gosh, he was quite young!
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Are you sure about that?
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You will have to be very careful about connecting any records you find online to your particular Carpentiers; a very limited set of French records are online, and just because there's a Carpentier/Rozier marriage doesn't make it yours or related to yours in any way.
I would ask the people with trees where those parents' names came from; it may well be that somebody found a particular Louis, decided it was the right one, evidence or not, and everyone else copied without thinking of checking. Sadly all too common.
I know people are trying to help, but what we have here is a French man born about 1757 who fled during the Reign of Terror, bearing a very common name (French equivalent of Carpenter).
A marriage in 1770 with similar names to his supposed parents (who may or may not be correct) or a man in Belgium in 1794 with the same name as his supposed father are not necessarily connected, and just searching for people with similar names in France is, in my opinion, a waste of time until you can find concrete evidence of his origins in other records.
One thing to check - have you seen the original of his marriage in England? Does it say if he was single or a widower?
There is a thesis: Refugees of the French Revolution: Émigrés in London, 1789–1802 (you can find a pdf online), which gives some interesting background but more importantly a list of sources, the main of which is the series T 93 at the National Archives -
French Refugees Relief Committee: Records
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C13830
If he received any sort of support on arrival to England, he may be found somewhere in those records, but somebody would have to spend a significant amount of time sifting through records at Kew to figure it out.
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Bury and Norwich Post, 25 Feb 1829
DIED - Same day (ie.18 Feb), at Harpley, Louis Carpentier, a native of France, age 71.
His death notice states after fleeing France 1792, he worked 36 years for the Rev C Spurgeon, of Harpley. Rev Spurgeon predeceased him by 25 days.
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Thanks Hanes and Jorose.
Yes, Jorose - I absolutely agree, and I actually think the marriage attributed by some trees on ancestry must be wrong because of the dates. It would be nice to find even a number of Louis Carpentiers born in the right year that could be kept in mind while evidence is sought for. I will look for his marriage - pretty sure findmypast has Norfolk parishes online.
Thanks also for the archives link.
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Dear GeorgiyH,
Jorose is perfectly right : unfortunately, these names are really very common in France, much too common to follow up on a lead, without proper information on the exact area of origin.
Once you have further information thanks to the marriage certificate, do not hesitate to ask me if you need some help with French language, while searching in French records online. I'd do my best to help you.
Greetings from France !
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Unfortunately the marriage in Norfolk gave no details or particulars about where in France he was from, let alone parents...I am told his mother was a lady in waiting of Marie Antoinette, but I very much doubt that is the actual truth - romanticised family lore more likely.