RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Stephanie Campbell on Wednesday 20 April 16 06:59 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
I am quite stuck on the tracing of three members of my family tree. They are added into the tree through Marriage, and were all at one point (1885) living in Dunedin.
I am looking for Carl Bjornvik (b. approx 1848) his wife Carolina Bjornvik (nee Yrjas) and their son John Carlson (b. 1862).
I with all the data I have estimate the arrival of John Carlson in New Zealand at 1881, due to a papers past article, from 1889 that states he had been in New Zealand for 8 years, but was not Naturalised (Naturalisation date 13 May 1902).
Any help would be appreciated.
Attached is the Marriage of John Carlson (the son) to Emma Alice Eden BIRDSEY.
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Hello Stephanie,
Welcome to Rootshat. :)
Here are the children of John & Emma........
1889/375 Carlson Frederick William Emma Alice Eden John -
1894/10058 Carlson Lillian Caroline Birdsey Emma Alice Eden John -
1887/3944 Carlson John Charles Emma Alice Eden John -
1897/5790 Carlson Ivy Irena Victoria Emma Alice Eden John -
1899/12667 Carlson Violet Louisa Weedon Emma Alice Eden John
Minniehaha.
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The death of Carl?......
Cemetery Details
Surname CARLSON
Forename CARL
Age 45 Years
Gender Male
Date of Death 26 Dec 1894
Last Address "Hulks", Port Chalmers, Dunedin
Next of Kin
Funeral Director Not recorded
Cemetery PORT CHALMERS CEMETERY
Location Block REG. Plot 261
Date of Burial 28 Dec 1894
Type Burial
Occupation Night Watchman
Place of Birth
Date of Birth Not recorded
Notes Place of Birth: Sweden
Lived 18 years in NZ
Minniehaha.
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The circumstances of his death........
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ESD18941229.2.37&srpos=1&e=--1894---1894--10-ESD%2cOG%2cOW-1----2carlson--
Minniehaha.
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I have the Children of John and Emma. I have everything for the next generation down, they are not the tricky points.
As for the Carl Carlson... it 'might' be him, however, it also might not be... I have no way of confirming that, and bdm seems to be of no help as well as ancestry, and FindMyPast.
The one thing that might help is that John died in 1905, and in in affadavit Emma signed in 1907 (very delayed) it stated he had no relatives in the colony of New Zealand. This must mean that either the parents (Carl and Carolina Bjornvik) died prior to 1905/7 or moved from New Zealand prior to then.
I have no idea what ship they came over on, and if I was able to find that might have a little more luck with sourcing the Bjornvik information (as far as I can tell the Bjornvik name is non-patronymic, which is unusual for Finland)
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The death of son John?........
1923/4590 Carlson John 62Y
Minniehaha.
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The only John Carlson death for 1905 is one John Charles Carlson, aged 58 years.??
Funeral notice......
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19050307.2.62.1&srpos=1&e=--1905---1905--10--1----2john+carlson--
Minniehaha.
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Last name CARLSON
First name JOHN
Age 43 Years
Occupation SHIPWRIGHT
Service provided Burial
Burial date 08/03/1905
Funeral director WILSON
Cemetery Karori
Section PUBLIC
Plot number 171 I
Record number 24001
http://wellington.govt.nz/services/community-and-culture/cemeteries/cemeteries-search/details?id=24001&serviceType=Burial&previousPage=%2fservices%2fcommunity-and-culture%2fcemeteries%2fcemeteries-search%2fresults%3fserviceType%3dAll%26firstNames%3djohn%26lastName%3dCarlson%26fromDate%3d01%252f01%252f1840%26toDate%3d20%252f04%252f2016%26cemetery%3dAll (http://wellington.govt.nz/services/community-and-culture/cemeteries/cemeteries-search/details?id=24001&serviceType=Burial&previousPage=%2fservices%2fcommunity-and-culture%2fcemeteries%2fcemeteries-search%2fresults%3fserviceType%3dAll%26firstNames%3djohn%26lastName%3dCarlson%26fromDate%3d01%252f01%252f1840%26toDate%3d20%252f04%252f2016%26cemetery%3dAll)
Death was 5 March 1905 (It states so in the Affadavit - below)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99VP-3QQJ?mode=g&i=264&wc=Q8C5-J9T%3A1045248401%2C1061027502%3Fcc%3D1865481&cc=1865481 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99VP-3QQJ?mode=g&i=264&wc=Q8C5-J9T%3A1045248401%2C1061027502%3Fcc%3D1865481&cc=1865481)
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Burial..........
Last name* CARLSON
First name JOHN
Age 58 Years
Occupation Labourer
Service provided Burial
Burial date 23/07/1905
Cemetery Karori
Section PUBLIC2
Plot number 32 F
Record number 103031
*However funeral notice in previous reply has the death of a John Carlson March 1905. Same cemetery....
Minniehaha.
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I updated my previous post to include information before my link Minniehaha
Do you happen to know if there is there anyone very well versed in Finnish/Russian emigrants/immigrants and the Shipping routes?
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Hello...
Welcome to Rootschat :)
They [...] were all at one point (1885) living in Dunedin.
What info do you have which says the three all lived in Dunedin in 1885.
Do you have their Dunedin address.
And what surname were the parents using at the time.
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Have you seen the ITM for the 1885 CARLSON/BIRDSEY marriage. If so, what was the groom's length of residence.
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Naturalisation date 13 May 1902
Have you seen the Memorial of Naturalisation. If so, did it mention a town/village of birth.
John Carlson, Auckland Date (received): 14 February 1902
Subject: Memorial for naturalisation.
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24918403 (https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=24918403)
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In both the 1881 and 1893 electoral rolls there was a John CARLSON listed as living in Taita, which is not too far from Wellington. Not saying he's your man but, assuming he's not, he might be the man mentioned in the newspaper article to which you referred in your original post... which would mean your arrival year estimate of 1881 may well be out.
Just saying :-)
Regards
Beg
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The death of Emma.........
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19430720.2.3&srpos=20&e=--1943---1943--10--11----2+tremain--
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19430721.2.3&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----2emma+alice+eden--
[Married Joseph Tremain in 1911.]
Minniehaha.
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Her burial details........
Last name TREMAIN
First name EMMA ALICE EDER
Age 75 Years
Occupation Married
Service provided Burial
Burial date 21/07/1943
Funeral director WILSON
Cemetery Karori
Section PUBLIC2
Plot number 340 Y
Record number 34248
Minniehaha.
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Emma's silver wedding.......
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP19360215.2.5&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----2joseph+tremain--
Minniehaha.
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Hi
Looking for this family is proving a little difficult. Karolina's surname is the village/farm Yrjäs where she lived or was born. There is a Yrjäs in Nykarleby in the Swedish speaking part of Finland. There are a couple more dotted around Finland. There is also a Björnvik in Nykarleby too. The reason why I think it is Nykarleby is because I have found what I believe is Karl and Karolina's family grave:
http://web.genealogia.fi/asp/hautoja1d.asp?lang=se&code=124&id=172291
I will keep looking.
Ian
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Hi Beg,
The Reason I state They were all at one point (1885) living in Dunedin was because I had seen on the marriage printout (and upon looking it won't be John's Parents, but just John himself), and Emma were 'currently residing' in Dunedin. It also shows that Dunedin was John Carlson's Usual Place of Residence. The Marriage was on 30th December 1885. On the printout it gives Johns Parents names as Bjornvik, or Biornvik (the writing is a little hard to tell. It also gives John's mother Carolina's maiden surname as Yrjas. The marriage printout is included in my first comment on page 1.
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I have not seen the Notice for intended Marriage, however, on the advice I was given it would contain less information. The only information I have assisting me with John's length of residence in New Zealand is a Papers Past Article.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP18891014.2.14&srpos=9&e=-------10--1-byDA---2John+Carlson-- (http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP18891014.2.14&srpos=9&e=-------10--1-byDA---2John+Carlson--)
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Naturalisation date 13 May 1902
I have requested a copy of the Naturalisation and Alien Registration Records, however, have not received any emails/correspondance back yet. When I receive it I will be eagerly looking for his town/village of birth, and if available the ship he arrived on.
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As I have no idea what port He arrived in, Wellington is a possibility. IT is not out of the question for in 1893 either, as later on Emma seems to have been in Napier and then Wellington after his Death. Although I do understand what you are saying about the possibility of it being 'another' John Carlson. I do know that he would have had to move from where he was born (as it states on the marriage printout Finland Russia) between 1862 his approx birth year and 1885 his year of marriage.
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Hi
Looking for this family is proving a little difficult. Karolina's surname is the village/farm Yrjäs where she lived or was born. There is a Yrjäs in Nykarleby in the Swedish speaking part of Finland. There are a couple more dotted around Finland. There is also a Björnvik in Nykarleby too. The reason why I think it is Nykarleby is because I have found what I believe is Karl and Karolina's family grave:
http://web.genealogia.fi/asp/hautoja1d.asp?lang=se&code=124&id=172291
I will keep looking.
Ian
Thank You Ian :)
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Hi again...
Thanks for the reply.
The reason I asked for the parent's surname was because (as Ian pointed out) the surnames on the certificate are "farm names". There's often a good chance there would have been a patrynomic thrown in there too and I was thinking maybe the father Carl was using that in Dunedin. Might have given a clue to his origins but as it now seems the parents were not in Dunedin in 1885 (or possibly even in NZ) it looks like a bust :-)
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The reason I asked about the ITM was that a marriage certificate doesn't mention length of residence whereas an ITM does. It's often not all that helpful as the full description is something like "Length of Residence in the registration district where the marriage is going to take place and not the actual length of time the bride and groom have been in NZ" :) Having said that, if John got off the boat in Dunedin in 1870 and never left Dunedin till his marriage in 1885 the ITM would say "Length of Residence: 15 years" ... which would be really helpful to know.
One of the amazing things about Rootschat is that there are some very generous people kind enough to take photos on your behalf of ITM's or naturalisation papers (or anything else) when they visit the Archives. You may need to wait a week or two for your request to be filled but it's an awful lot cheaper than having Archives NZ charge you $50 an hour.
I would suggest you start a new thread entitled "Wellington Archives look-up please" and ask for photos of the ITM and the naturalisation papers.
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Have you seen the 1905 death certifcate for John CARLSON. Although death certifcates are often inaccurate "Length of Residence" is one of the columns, as is "Birthplace". Might be worth $20.
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Where did you get the ~1848 birth date for Carl BJORNVIK mentioned in your original post. It would make Carl ~14 when his son John was born in ~1862, which seems fairly young.
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Register of NZ Finns
http://maine.utu.fi/emregfree/nimihaku_e.php (http://maine.utu.fi/emregfree/nimihaku_e.php)
You may have more luck than me getting the above database to work. I keep getting a 500 error even though the other databases work fine. I suspect if John is mentioned it will just be a note saying that he was naturalised in 1902 so definitely not worth 20 euro.
Regards
Beg
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Beg,
I wasn't sure if they were farm names, patonymic names, or adopted surnames. It was getting me really stuck, and Papers Past only showed Emma under the name Bjornvik for any records. and BDM showed nothing!!
Glad we have figured out that they probably did not make the voyage, although it makes looking for John Carlson a tad harder.
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would the ITM be just as useful, even if he moved about once arriving in New Zealand.. or are they only location specific for registration purposes?.
Your idea of requesting for someone to look for me is one I will take up (and make a separate post about later - hopefully that bring up some answers)
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I cannot seem to locate the correct death on BDM for John Carlson, though I do have the cemetery information. If I were to find the correct John Carlson I would most definately be looking at getting the Death Cert. The only one showing in 1905 is 58 upon his death and the john we need was approx 43.
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In all honesty I cannot remember where I got the 1848 birth date for Carl BJORNVIK mentioned in your original post. However the details that Ian have provided give a different birth date, and are more likely to be correct. I think I was going off the assumption they had migrated with John, and died here in New Zealand under an assumed surname.
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I will have a look into that link that you have given me :)
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I cannot seem to locate the correct death on BDM for John Carlson
BDM NZ
1905/1429 - BIORNVICK aka CARLSON, John - 43 years - d.o.d 5 Mar 1905
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Would the ITM be useful...
Can't answer that until we actually see it.
I suspect the answer will be "not that useful" but there's no harm in asking for an ITM lookup.
Regards
Beg
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If John Carlson was a shipwright, why would he appear on any passenger list? Possibly as a ships carpenter in the age of sail he would have been a crew member.
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I with all the data I have estimate the arrival of John Carlson in New Zealand at 1881, due to a papers past article, from 1889 that states he had been in New Zealand for 8 years, but was not Naturalised (Naturalisation date 13 May 1902).
The only information I have assisting me with John's length of residence in New Zealand is a Papers Past Article.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP18891014.2.14&srpos=9&e=-------10--1-byDA---2John+Carlson-- (http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=EP18891014.2.14&srpos=9&e=-------10--1-byDA---2John+Carlson--)
Hi
Isn't this the wrong man in the newspaper article ??? He is named as John CARLSON, a Swede. ???
~ Lu
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Isn't this the wrong man in the newspaper article ??? He is named as John CARLSON, a Swede. ???
~ Lu
No, it could be the same person, as Finland had people that spoke both Finnish and Swedish. It 'might' be that he was from Finland, but grew up in the Swedish speaking part of Finland.
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If John Carlson was a shipwright, why would he appear on any passenger list? Possibly as a ships carpenter in the age of sail he would have been a crew member.
I hadn't thought of that, however trying to narrow down a date of arrival would assist, as we don't know what age he would have been, and if he would have had the Carpenter/Shipwright trade prior to emigration.
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Vassa digital archives
Nykarleby Communion book - using the search term Nykarleby
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/dosearch.ka?o=31
Could he be in here?
Possibly paid research could find him?
The Provincial Archives of Vaasa
Sepänkyläntie 2
P.O. Box 240, 65101 VAASA
Phone: +358 29 533 7300
kirjaamo(at)arkisto.fi
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Vassa digital archives
Nykarleby Communion book - using the search term Nykarleby
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/dosearch.ka?o=31
Could he be in here?
I suspect Ian has already had a look through there, as have I.
I couldn't see anything but that means nothing.
For the record I've had a look through the births 1832-36 and 1860-1864 and the household/communion registers for Yrjäs in the 1840's
The thing is a lot (but not all) of those records have been transcribed by the FFHA (SSHY) so it's depressing researching when you know there are transcriptions available. The problem is you can't get to the transcriptions unless you're an FFHA member. A few years back it was about $50 a year which is great value but not so much when you're looking for only the one line.
FFHA
http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/index_eng.htm (http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/sshy/index_eng.htm)
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There is the associated genealogy forum which is open to everyone. Might be an idea if the original poster posts the headstone photo found by Ian in reply no.14 and asks for advice.
SSHY (scroll down to English/Genealogy)
http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/phpBB3/ (http://www.sukuhistoria.fi/phpBB3/)
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Yes, I have looked without much success unfortunately. I am by the way a member of FFHA.
Ian
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Might be an idea if the original poster posts the headstone photo found by Ian in reply no.14 and asks for advice.
Here is the original site - nr 643:
http://www.nykarlebyvyer.nu/sidor/texter/prosa/olsonr/nykgrav/kvarter6.htm
Ian
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Björnvik is in Eugmo, Larsmo - Luoto, a parish near to Nykarleby.
I am assuming of course that I have the right Björnvik and Yrjäs.
Ian
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Found him.
Johannes Carlsson birth 14 June 1861: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hi4/
Carl Johan Johansson Björnvik b. 19 June 1835 with wife Greta Carolina Eriksdotter b. 4 Sept 1832
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=16593923
They were living at Björn. You can see a faint Björnvik above Carl Johan's name.
Ian
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Here is Greta Carolina's birth 14 Sept. It states that she was born at Yrjäs:
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=8379994
Ian
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Superb :)
You must have the eyes of a hawk to make out the word Björnvik.
I can see a B and a J but the rest is a garble.
Well done
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Cheers. Easy to miss those type of things.
Ian
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Here is Greta Carolina's birth 14 Sept. It states that she was born at Yrjäs:
FamilySearch
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBHP-H26 (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XBHP-H26)
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Here is Carl Johan's birth:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XB78-2P8
You can also see his parents at the top of the "census" I posted.
Ian
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Marriage of Carl to (Greta) Carolina
12 Aug 1856
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=8380679 (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=8380679)
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Birth of their son Carl (John's brother mentioned in the household register)
31 May 1864
http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=8380511 (http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=8380511)
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Well, I managed to follow Johannes a little bit from the moving in and out books, to Pedersöre parish. He left Nykarleby on 1 May 1880. Here he is in Pedersöre:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hi5/
A very faint entry fifth name down - Johannes Karls. Björnvik. I cannot though find him leaving the parish. I went as far as 1887 to make sure, no record. He must have left without reporting to the minister.
So he was definately in Finland around 1880-1881.
Ian
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Some great finds Ian, well done. :)
~ Lu
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Thanks for that Lucy2.
Ian
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yayyyy Thanks Ian and Beg, I did suggest Stephanie come here and ask as I knew one of you would be able to find it, I did try looking at the Kommunication books but got stuck lol ;D
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You're welcome crab2.
Ian
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I would not be overly concerned with discrepancies in Karori records, there are instances of incorrect information.While helping someone,I noticed an obvious one, a 9month old being a qualified carpenter, and when I advised them they said they would need a death cert to alter it. I ask you. If all matches disregard their website.
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Just a couple of records to fill the gaps:
1850 Kommunion Book - Carl: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=16587281
1857 Kommunion Book - Carl and Karoline: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=16591149
Ian
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Thank You Ian, and Beg.
Lots of Information to follow through and look at now :)
So John Carlson (and name variants) must have arrived to New Zealand somewhere between 1882 and 1885? (Dec 1885 he was married in New Zealand).
The next thing I wonder if the records over there show is his job/type of work. Over here he is listed as a Carpenter for some, and Shipwright for his later years. This would be useful, as I would be able to figure out if he was working his way over as a crewman of some sort (crew-carpenter for example), or just travelling as a passenger.
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Cheers Stephanie
Just like to add that Greta Karolina was a widow when she married Karl.
Ian
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Well done Ian :)
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I have the Death printout.
It states time in New Zealand as 21 Years (in 1905), the age at death 43, matches up and death date etc. This means his trip would have been in 1884.
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That would be dependent on his memory,I have seen wrong ships of arrival given, was he literate?
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I have the Death printout.
It states time in New Zealand as 21 Years (in 1905), the age at death 43, matches up and death date etc. This means his trip would have been in 1884.
A death printout is only as good as the informant,often an emotionally upset relative
Cheers Janette
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Am wondering if this Papers Past Article, might be our John. If so , we might have his arrival in Port Chalmers (which would explain his Dunedin Residence at his time of marriage). It also fits in with the fact that he was still in Finland in 1880/1881, and had to be here by Dec 1885, for his wedding. The Death printout, had no ship name. Just the years in New Zealand, and as others have stated that may or may not be correct depending on how greived the person giving the information was.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ODT18831224.2.3&srpos=2&e=01-10-1883-01-03-1885--100--1-byDA---2Karlson-- (http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ODT18831224.2.3&srpos=2&e=01-10-1883-01-03-1885--100--1-byDA---2Karlson--)
As to the person who asked if he was literate... I am not sure. It looks asthough the Death printout is like a death certificate (though provides more information about cause of death). He had apparently had Stricture of Pylorus, time of illness is stated as 6 months, and also had a Gastric haemorrhage.
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Hi again...
"Time in the colony" is often (but not always) mentioned when applying to be naturalised. It's as accurate as you're going to get short of a passenger list.
I've also seen applications which list the date, ship and port of arrival... and others which haven't :-)
Just keep hanging out for someone to answer your Wellington Archives lookup request and keep your fingers crossed.
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yayyyy Thanks Ian and Beg
Thanks Linda but it was 100% down to Ian.
I'd already looked at those pages and totally missed the entries.... grrrrrrrr :-(
Regards
Beg
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Some more gaps to fill in:
1813 - Johannes Björnvik's father Johan Carlsson Gunnila birth 7 Dec: http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hi9/
1820 - Johan Carlsson Gunnila and family: http://digi.narc.fi/digi/view.ka?kuid=9586206
Ian
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[
[/quote]
Thanks Linda but it was 100% down to Ian.
I'd already looked at those pages and totally missed the entries.... grrrrrrrr :-(
Regards
Beg
[/quote]
He's brilliant isn't he, I struggled with the hand writing in those Kommunication Books when I tried to help Stephanie over in Facebook :)