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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: kjmck on Tuesday 19 April 16 22:41 BST (UK)
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Hi there,
I am looking to see if i can get any further back in my paternal line.
My 4x Great Grandfather was John McKenzie/MacKenzie, he died 22 February 1857 at Arinagour Farm, on the Isle of Coll in Argyll aged 90. His occupation is given as a 'Greenwich Pensioner & Crofter'. His wife's name was Elizabeth (Betty/Betsy) Sutherland, and they married 18 May 1805 in Canongate, Edinburgh.
John and Betsy had 4 children in Inverness-shire before they moved west to Argyll. On all of these 4 baptismal records, John is listed as either a private or a soldier in the 6th R.V.B and fought at the battle of Assaye in the Maratha War. The youngest of the 4 was my 3x great grandfather John, who lists himself either being born at Fort William or Artnasair Par in 1812. I don't know what Artnasair Par means though.
So, on his death record it gives his parents as John MacKenzie (Crofter) and Peggy (Maiden Name unknown). After searching the records, I found a baptism for a John McKenzie in Inverness on 22 September 1765 to John McKenzie and Margaret McLean. It reads - 'John McKenzie bewest the water and his spouse Margaret McLean...' Does anyone know what bewest the water means?
On the discharge papers of my 4x Great Grandfather, he is listed as a Sergeant, that he was born in the Parish of Moy near Inverness, that he was near 40 (and this was in 1805) so he would have been born roughly 1765.
Questions:
1) Does anyone know where Artnasair Par is?
2) Is there any way I can access more military records for John (born 1765)?
3) If correct that his parents were John McKenzie & Margaret McLean, is there any way to trace these further back?
4) Have I hit a dead end?
Many thanks,
Keelan
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He must have been in the navy to have been a Greenwich pensioner. Have you seen the surviving list of Greenwich Pensioners on the National Archive website?
Here is the link and you'll see from the page that you can filter the results. It gives ages, etc where known:-
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=John%20Mckenzie
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Well on his wife Elizabeth's death certificate in 1860, he is listed as a Chelsea Pensioner, would this make a difference to what he was doing in the military/navy?
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Greenwich Pensioners wore green hospital uniforms and the in-patients were treated in the specially built naval hospital provided by Queen Ann in Greenwich.
Chelsea Pensioners are the more famous ones who wear red hospital uniforms. The in-patients were treated in the army hospital located in Chelsea. I see findmypast has some records.
Here's a link explaining what the pensioners are/were and what records there are for the Chelsea Pensioners.
http://www.chelsea-pensioners.co.uk/tracing-ancestors
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I think there may have been a bit of fibbing going on from the family on these records.
Although he is listed as a sergeant on his discharge papers in 1805, i can't find a record of him belonging to either the Greenwich or Chelsea pensioners.
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Does anyone know what bewest the water means?
1) Does anyone know where Artnasair Par is?
Hi Keelan,
Not sure if this will help but......
"Does anyone know what bewest the water means?"
Simply means "to the west of"
"1) Does anyone know where Artnasair Par is?"
My take on this is that it could be Ardersier Parish?......nearest sounding name I can come up with?
Can you tell us who registered John's death in 1857 & who registered his wife's death in 1860?
The info. on death certs. are only as good as the knowledge of the informant.
Annie
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I think there may have been a bit of fibbing going on from the family on these records.
Although he is listed as a sergeant on his discharge papers in 1805, i can't find a record of him belonging to either the Greenwich or Chelsea pensioners.
The rank of sergeant is an army term. The navy uses the terms "seamen" and "able seamen". However, the navy marines were/are soldiers and presumably they use the term "sergeant" too. It's quite possible that your ancestor could have been conscripted or volunteered. Unfortunately I can't put my hand on notes I've made during my research on the dates of wars and prospective wars.
As regards the navy, each parish was given a quota of young men they had to raise for the navy - if in a time of need the numbers weren't achieved, history shows that "press gangs" earned money by kidnapping young men off the streets - that practice stopped c1815. I have one Greenwich Pensioner ancestor who served in the navy from 1794 when I think we were quarreling with Denmark.
You have quite a choice as to which Highland militia army your man fought for. The link below has a list which show what records still survive for the counties of Argyll, Inverness, Sutherland and Ross & Cromarty, etc., etc. Amongst them are the lists of eligible men aged between 16 and 60 for the Highland Fencibles raised in 1797 and 1798. For instance, one branch of the Mackenzies raised the Seaforth Highlanders but unfortunately "John M'kenzie" is quite a common name. To get recruits to sign up, they were promised a lump sum of money for their family plus a wage for themselves, which wasn't to be sneezed when times were hard.
http://www.myainfolk.com/Resources_files/Scottish_Population_Listings_Pre1841.pdf
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I can't believe that after all the years this thread is still bouncing around the web.
For a few credits at Scot's People you could have found out amazing things and moved on.
Things like they had 7 children not 4; that in 1812 he was listed as private it says so as clear as day in his son's baptism. Likely at the Garrison at Augustus. And, that Donald b 1820 would make him the youngest and a whole lot more.
04/12/1812 MACKENZIE JOHN JOHN MACKENZIE/BETTY SUTHERLAND FR159 (FR159) M BOLESKINE AND ABERTARFF OR FORT AUGUSTUS /INVERNESS 092/00 0010 0182
Don
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I can't believe that after all the years this thread is still bouncing around the web.
For a few credits at Scot's People you could have found out amazing things and moved on.
Things like they had 7 children not 4; that in 1812 he was listed as private it says so as clear as day in his son's baptism. Likely at the Garrison at Augustus. And, that Donald b 1820 would make him the youngest and a whole lot more.
04/12/1812 MACKENZIE JOHN JOHN MACKENZIE/BETTY SUTHERLAND FR159 (FR159) M BOLESKINE AND ABERTARFF OR FORT AUGUSTUS /INVERNESS 092/00 0010 0182
Don
Hi Don,
What a surprise to see you - I'm still "bouncing around" with my Donald M'kenzie, blacksmith of Clyde Ironworks born Urray, who I suspect was also in the army - only because he seems to have been quite old when his children were born. Mysteriously one of my father's brothers had the three forenames of Alan Cameron M'kenzie which I know was from an original Alan M'kenzie, also of Clyde Ironworks from the 1841 census. Could that be a clue to a leader of a highland regiment I wonder.
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Hi Rena,
I haven't read your post but there's a good chance of the middle name of Cameron being either maternal mother or grandmother m/s........although not always?
Annie
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Hi Rena,
I haven't read your post but there's a good chance of the middle name of Cameron being either maternal mother or grandmother m/s........although not always?
Annie
Thanks Annie,
From a family grave headstone, I do know that the Allan Mckenzie on the 1841 census had a Janet Cameron as a maternal grandmother; she was married to a Donald Mckenzie, clerk of Clyde Ironworks - birthplaces of both grandparents unknown. I have not yet found a suitable Janet born to an Allan Cameron, or an Alan M'K born to a Donald M'kenzie
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I can't believe that after all the years this thread is still bouncing around the web.
For a few credits at Scot's People you could have found out amazing things and moved on.
Things like they had 7 children not 4; that in 1812 he was listed as private it says so as clear as day in his son's baptism. Likely at the Garrison at Augustus. And, that Donald b 1820 would make him the youngest and a whole lot more.
04/12/1812 MACKENZIE JOHN JOHN MACKENZIE/BETTY SUTHERLAND FR159 (FR159) M BOLESKINE AND ABERTARFF OR FORT AUGUSTUS /INVERNESS 092/00 0010 0182
Don
Don - I did not say that they only had 4 children, I said that they had 4 children in Inverness-shire before moving onto Argyllshire where they had a further 5 children - Margaret, Elizabeth, Charlotte, John, Mary, Allan, Donald, Janet & Catherine, therefore Donald was not the youngest.
I have John Sr.'s military records so I know what his rank was transcribed as, and also what it was thought to be at the time of his death. I was merely looking to find if anyone knew if I could find out more about the said career, or possible going further back in the McKenzie line. Some people have been very helpful.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=820309.msg6826186#msg6826186
Have posted a new Query to the Military message board.
Just curious on your opinion here, why would John, Betsy, and their children travel from Inverness to the isle of Coll between 1813 - 1815? In 1841/51, John states that that is his birth place (Tyree) so would that be a reason possibly, even if i can't find a birth record there for him? Or perhaps John's military career came to an end and that was the reason for their move?
I have so many records, I am getting a little confused with all of the information.
Keelan
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Just curious on your opinion here, why would John, Betsy, and their children travel from Inverness to the isle of Coll between 1813 - 1815? In 1841/51, John states that that is his birth place (Tyree) so would that be a reason possibly, even if i can't find a birth record there for him? Or perhaps John's military career came to an end and that was the reason for their move?
Keelan, I may have missed something, how do you know the family moved to Coll 1813 - 1815?
Annie
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Annie,
I know this because John & Betsy's 4th child John, was Baptised in Boleskine & Abertaff or Fort Augustus in 1812, and their next child Mary born in 1815 was baptised on the Isle of Coll, as were the 4 children after Mary. Coll is where John & Betsy remained until their deaths.
Keelan
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I can think of a few reasons:-
*Living in crowded towns with an industrial water supply tended to be unhealthy.
*He inherited a family croft
*He had a chance of renting a vacant croft
* He was a pensioner and would have received an army pension, but I'm pretty sure in those days that the Parish were you were born was the place responsible for looking after you when you were feeble or came on hard times and needed extra support (poor relief).
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Hi Rena,
Thanks for getting back to me.
I just seem to be very confused at the moment with this. According to census returns, John was born between 1776 and 1781, in Tyree & Coll. According to his death record, he was born c.1766/67. According to military records of which there are two possiblities, he was either born in Moy, Inverness or Kilmuir, near Inverness.
I have found a possible birth match in 1765 in Inverness-shire, but can't find a John McKenzie born in Argyll to John & Margaret (Peggy) McKenzie in those dates.
So I don't know which info to trust basically.
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I, too, am trying to sort "Bewest the water" and "Over the water". I think it may be the west side of the Merkinch or Muirtown basin but I only came to that recently and of course I've lost the link to whatever made me think this :( (sad really as I've been looking for a couple of years at least).
My John Fraser was described as being of "Green of Muirton" in 1824. My issue is, is this "Green of Muirton" what is now Muirtown St off Telford St, or, is it the lands near Muirtown house and the Muirtown basin. If it's the basin, then I would need to pay more attention to those "Bewest", "Beyond" and "Over the water" records in my search.
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I, too, am trying to sort "Bewest the water" and "Over the water". I think it may be the west side of the Merkinch or Muirtown basin but I only came to that recently and of course I've lost the link to whatever made me think this :( (sad really as I've been looking for a couple of years at least).
My John Fraser was described as being of "Green of Muirton" in 1824. My issue is, is this "Green of Muirton" what is now Muirtown St off Telford St, or, is it the lands near Muirtown house and the Muirtown basin. If it's the basin, then I would need to pay more attention to those "Bewest", "Beyond" and "Over the water" records in my search.
How good is your eyesight?
Here's a transfer of the place known as; "Green of Muirtown":-
https://www.ambaile.org.uk/search/?searchQuery=Green+of+Muirtown
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Ooh! Thank you so very, very, much. My hunch appears to be correct. I'm sure it was a BMD record which led me to this and I went down the rabbit hole without saving the record. I've asked all over the place and no one knew what I was talking about.
I've also just realized that my John Fraser's father, William, may have still been alive in 1841.
That's my next few days sorted, then.
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Ooh! Thank you so very, very, much. My hunch appears to be correct. I'm sure it was a BMD record which led me to this and I went down the rabbit hole without saving the record. I've asked all over the place and no one knew what I was talking about.
I've also just realized that my John Fraser's father, William, may have still been alive in 1841.
That's my next few days sorted, then.
Not sure I'm writing in the correct space (I haven't used this site before), but I ran into Madchia's quote while searching for Green of Muirton. My great, great grandfather was a William Fraser. His son John was my great grandfather. I am currently searching for William's father John. And I'm wondering whether we are referring to the same William Fraser.
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Does anyone know what bewest the water means?
1) Does anyone know where Artnasair Par is?
Hi Keelan,
Not sure if this will help but......
"Does anyone know what bewest the water means?"
Simply means "to the west of"
"1) Does anyone know where Artnasair Par is?"
My take on this is that it could be Ardersier Parish?......nearest sounding name I can come up with?
Can you tell us who registered John's death in 1857 & who registered his wife's death in 1860?
The info. on death certs. are only as good as the knowledge of the informant.
Annie
I agree re Arderseir parish.
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And it might be useful to know that Fort George is in the parish of Ardersier.
Fort George and Fort Augustus (parish of Boleskine and Abertarff) owe their existence to the efforts to pacify the Highlands after the 1745 Jacobite Rising.
Fort William (parish of Kilmallie) dates from 1688, at the time of the abdication of King James VII.
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Ooh! Thank you so very, very, much. My hunch appears to be correct. I'm sure it was a BMD record which led me to this and I went down the rabbit hole without saving the record. I've asked all over the place and no one knew what I was talking about.
I've also just realized that my John Fraser's father, William, may have still been alive in 1841.
That's my next few days sorted, then.
Not sure I'm writing in the correct space (I haven't used this site before), but I ran into Madchia's quote while searching for Green of Muirton. My great, great grandfather was a William Fraser. His son John was my great grandfather. I am currently searching for William's father John. And I'm wondering whether we are referring to the same William Fraser.
Hi, my John Fraser, tailor, middle name of Simon according to the marriages of a couple of his children, was b abt 1796 Inverness per 1841 Liverpool census. First wife, m 1818 INV, was Janet Macintosh - 9 children. His 2nd wife was listed as a widow in 1851. The only John Fraser, tailor, who died bet 1841-1851 died in 1847 Liverpool and was supposedly born abt 1788. The informant was another John Fraser, not John's wife who was still alive (?).
At the time of John Fraser's second marriage, he lists his father as William, farmer.
John S Fraser tried 3-4 times to name a child after himself but they all died young.
I appear to have quite a few DNA matches which lead back to Kiltarlity, Caiplach and Abriachan.
John S Fraser and Janet McIntosh's first-born, William, b 1819 - nothing further known.
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I'm sure it was a BMD record which led me to this and I went down the rabbit hole without saving the record.
If your records were found on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk they will still be there to view & save?
Annie