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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Huntingdonshire => Topic started by: pflaagan on Tuesday 19 July 05 21:10 BST (UK)
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I ordered the marriage cert. for William Grey & Harrit Prior, but it did not give the name of either father. They were married in Thrapston in 1841. Children born to them were Joe, abt 1840; Rhuben, abt. 1952; Amelia, abt. 1844; George Pryor, abt 1846; William John, abt. 1850; & Alfred, abt. 1852. William Gray must have died around 1852-53 because his widow married William Oliver. I have been trying to find them in the 1840 & 1850 census, but I have had no luck so far. If anyone comes across this family in either census, I would appreciate hearing from you.
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Thrapston is in Northamptonshire, so doesn't appear in the 1841 Hunts census set. You might also consider posting on the Northants board. So the member submission on the IGI was wrong when it stated that they married in Old Weston Hunts? What was the date of the marriage in 1841?
The absence of a father's name usually signifies illegitimacy, although it has been known for the bridegroom not to give a father's name if he knows that the bride was illegitimate, in order to save her possible embarrassment.
Since we last exchanged messages in September the 1861 has been indexed and is online.
RG9/981 folio 83
Ramsey, Hunts
William Oliver head marr 60 brick maker b Castor Northants
Harriet Oliver wife 38 b Winwick Northants
Pryor Gray son in law (=stepson) 14 b Alconbury Hunts
Amelia Gray dau in law (=step dau) 12 b Alconbury
William John Gray son in law 10 scholar b Alconbury
Alfred Gray son in law 8 scholar b Alconbury
Harriet Oliver dau 1 b Ramsey Hunts
Hoods Ferry, March, Cambs
Reuben Gray lodger unmarr 15 ag lab b Alconbury
in the household of James Driver 33 and family plus three other lodgers, all ag labs.
It is also the Alconbury 1851 that you need as the Greys' children were born there. Unfortunately it hasn't been released on CDRom, but perhaps someone reading this may have the Hunts FHS transcript. Alternatively there are people offering Alconbury look ups for 1851 on the Huntingdonshire look up exchange on http://members.tripod.com/AztecRose/huntingdon/hun.html
Regards
David
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The marriage certificate for William Grey & Harriet Prior states the date of the marriage as 2nd Nov. 1841 at The ____Church in the Parish of Old Weston in the County of Huntingdon. C. Thornton, Curate. The names of the couple & their witnesses were followed by "his/her mark" with an "x' in front of each name.
I have found William & Harriet in the 1851 census where it lists his birth place as Well, Cambridgeshire, England, & his birth date as abt. 1816. Where could I write for a copy of his birth or baptism record?
Thank you for your help. Pat
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Hi Pat
Pre 1837 there are no separate birth records. At best the vicar may have noted the birth in the baptism entry in the parish register. All of Cambridgeshire baptisms 1801-37 have been transcribed and are on the Baptism Index on Cambs FHS website at
http://www.cfhs.org.uk/Search.html
(I say all - all parish registers for the period indicated have been transcribed but I'm not sure about non-conformist baptisms).
However I cannot see a William Gray/Grey baptised 1816. The other problem is that I cannot find a parish in Cambridgeshire called Well, unless it's a hamlet forming part of a larger parish.
There's Barnwell, Burwell, Knapwell, Orwell, Outwell, Snailwell, Upwell, and Welney, but no Well on its own. And I don't see what else the 1851 census entry could be having looked at it. (But having looked again, and again, I see that the W of Well is nothing like the W of William or Winwick (Harriet's birthplace on the line beneath) and I wonder if it might be Upwell abbreviated to U'ell. Having said that the W does look like his lower case w of weston.) I'm clutching at straws.
I must confess I'm struggling - William appears in 1851 with a birthplace in Cambs that is possibly incomplete, with no baptism anywhere in Cambs in the year he gives as his birth, with no father mentioned on his marriage cert so he may have been illegotimate, and he was dead before 1861 so we don't get a second bite at a census with a birthplace.
I don't suppose you've got lucky and one or other of the witnesses was a Gray?
Sorry this is all pretty negative
Regards
David
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Hi Pat,
Alconbury Weston parish records
27 April 1845
Joseph Gray of Weston son of William and Harriet, labourer
Reuben Gray of Weston son of William and Harriet, labourer
18 April 1847
Pryor Gray of Weston son of William and Harriet, labourer
11 June 1850
William John Gray of Weston son of William and Harriet, labourer
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I found this on the 1841 census for Broughton:
William Gray age 75 Ag lab Born in county
Hannah Watson age 65 Widow born in county
HO 107/ 448/3
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I have found Wells. It says it was created 1 July 1837. Sub-districts: Glastonbury; Wells. GRO volumes: X (1837-51); 5c (1852-1930). Registers now in Mendip district.
Does this mean that Wells was created from part of Glastonbury? Where is Mendip district?
William & Harriet's sons, George Pryor & William John, came to the USA & eventually settled in North Dakota. I have met some of their descendants, but they know nothing about William Grey (Gray). A daughter Amelia & her husband are said to have also come to the US (Ohio), but they didn't have any children so I have not started trying to find them.
Thank you for all your help. I wish I coud travel to England, but doubt if that will ever happen so those of you who are so kind to help myself & others are greatly appreciated.
Sincerely,
Pat
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Hi Pat
But Wells is in Somerset on the opposite side of the country. As he gave his county of birth as Cambridgeshire, and the place as Well, I'm pretty certain that it's not the Somerset Wells where he was born.
In 1841 there's a Wm Gray 25 ag lab Born in Hunts living with the Taylor family in Alconbury Weston, which may be him. The birth county conflicts with the 1851 though.
The only William Gray that I can see in either Cambs or Hunts at about the right time was baptised at Bythorn 20 Nov 1814, son of James and Sarah Gray. Looking at the map Bythorn is only 2 miles from Old Weston
I got excited there for a moment but then I looked at the 1841 and 1851 censuses and the Bythorn William was on both, so I think we can rule out him.
Which leaves us back at square one I'm afraid.
A possibility must be that if he really was illegitimate his mother may have married and he used her married name of Gray. So his baptism may have been under a different surname.
What were the names of the witnesses at their marriage?
Regards
David
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Hi, David. That seems to take care of Well. The names of the witnesses were Abraham Taylor & Naomi Prior. In the IGI Naomi & Harriet were twins born or christened 21 Oct 1823 at Winwick; their parents were John Prior & Sophia Parnell. Harriet married William Grey 2 Nov 1841 in the parish church of Old Weston. On the marriage cert. it gives their ages as "of full age" & neither father is given. The IGI lists William's birth as about 1816 of Old Weston, Huntingdon. Since all these people on the marriage certificate had to place an "x" by their name, I assume they were illiterate so I can see how easy it must have been to have the wrong information on any census.
In any case, I think you may have found him with the Taylor family!
I have been told that William's oldest son, Joe, changed his name to Taylor because he wanted to join the military & had been rejected under his own name at one place so tried again with a different name at another place & was accepted.
By the time William & Harriet's son, Rhuben, married Sarah Richardson they must have come up in the world because when their son, Alfred (my grandfather) married my grandmother (Alice Ann Carter), Sarah was unhappy because he married someone "below his class". If William (her father-in-law)was both illegitimate & illiterate, she must have suffered from a short memory.
After all that, where would you suggest I should I try for a birth certificate?
Thanks for all your help.
Sincerely,
Pat
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Hi Pat
I'm nearly out of brilliant ideas on this one I'm afraid.
There were no birth certs pre 1837 so the best you can get is a copy of his baptism entry in a parish register.
That assumes that he was baptised (not everyone was) and even if he was, where?
In the two censuses in which he appears he gave his birth county as Hunts in the first and Cambs in the other. All of Cambs parish register baptisms have been transcribed onto the 1801-37 index on by Cambs FHS and he's not there.
Hunts is a different proposition as there is no central index as there is for Cambs for the likely period of his birth, and many parishes do not appear on the IGI, as the LDS was refused permission to film the registers. So for many parishes the only place to view them is at Huntingdon, which if you live in the USA or France makes life a bit difficult.
I have a feeling that he may have been born in Hunts, but it's a bit like looking for a needle in a haystack.
You can safely ignore the IGI entry of 1816 at Old Weston. The LDS church member who submitted it didn't have a clue when or where he was born so deducted 25 (it being assumed that males married at 25) from the marriage year, with the place being the same as the marriage. Pure worthless fiction!
As you know that Harriet had a legitimate father it's possible that the fathers' names were simply missed from the marriage cert, and William wasn't illegitimate at all. Alternatively, because he WAS illegitimate and didn't have a father's name to provide, Harriet left hers blank as well. Could be either.
In 1841 the head of the household was George Taylor, but one of the others in the household, possibly his brother, was Abraham Taylor.
You could try checking the parish chest entries of Alconbury Weston to see if there is any trace of a settlement certificate which would give his home parish.
I've had a look at the A2A index on http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/index.asp
and found the following
http://www.a2a.org.uk/search/documentxsl.asp?com=1&i=12&nbKey=2&stylesheet=xsl\A2A_com.xsl&keyword=gray&properties=0601
QUARTER SESSIONS BOXED PAPERS - ref. HCP/1/40 - date: 1857
March, 1857 Hunts. Assizes: Harriet Gray 34, widow Able to read; Leaving infant child without food or covering at Buckden. Sentence deferred
This looks very much like your Harriet. You could try contacting Huntingdon Records Office to get more details, which might shed some light on William - perhaps sentence was deferred pending reports from social services. Or is that a 20th century phenomenon?
Best I can come up with I'm afraid
Good luck
Regards
David
PS Just had the most obvious thought. Could he have been baptised in Alconbury Weston? There are a lot of Gray burials there at about the time he would have been born. Post a specific look up request on the Hunt look up board for his baptism - the parish records have been transcribed by Hunts FHS are on fiche (and Ruth has already checked them on this thread!)
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Thanks, David, for all your help. When you said to post a request on the Hunts board, did you mean here? I have gone ahead & done that, but maybe I'm in the wrong place?
I'm not sure how you get time to do all this searching, but I'm very grateful for all the time & help you have given me.
It's very frustrating to think that if I had started this when my grand parents were still alive, they could have answered so many of my questions. They did not come to the US until after they were married & had their first child. They had three girls, one of whom was my mother, but none of them are alive either. Living in Grand Forks, North Dakota, at the very least, slows me down & certainly limits what I can find so you can understand why I appreciate all that you have done for me.
Sincerely,
Pat
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Hi Pat
Yes, you posted your request on the right board.
There is an LDS Family History Center in Grand Forks at which you can order and view microfilms of parish registers. Alconbury Weston has been filmed so if your look up request doesn't bear fruit try ordering it from the LDS
These days whilst location helps it's not always a hindrance. Grand Forks, USA, or Carcassonne, France. You can still access the internet where so much information can be found once you know where to look. Of course you still need to check parish registers and you are fortunate in having the LDS in your town
Don't we all wish we had asked more questions when parents/grandparents were still alive!
Regards
David
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Hi Pat,
Is this of any use.
1851 Alconbury Weston HO 107/1748 Folio 308b 53.
William Gray H M 35 Ag.Lab. Cam Well.
Harriet Gray Wf M 29 Carrier Nth Winwick.
Joseph Gray S 7 Hun Alby Weston.
Reuben Gray S 5 " " "
Prior Gray S 3 " " "
Ruth Amelia Gray D 2 " " "
William John Gray S 1 " " "
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Hi, Becky. That is my family, but the "Camb Well" after William's name has me stumped. I don't know where to find his birth place so I can send for a cert.
It is interesting to see Amelia listed as Ruth Amelia. I will start over finding her under her other name.
Thanks so much,
Sincerely,
Pat
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Hi. I have found Wm Gray in the 1841 census living with Abraham Taylor & James Taylor. It gives the date of 1816 for the birth of Wm Gray & the place as Huntingdonshire. The civil parish is Alconbury Weston. I'm pretty sure this is my William Gray because Abraham Taylor was one of the witnesses on his marriage certificate. He was married to Harriet Prior in 1841 at Old Weston.
Even though the places of his birth vary, they seem to agree on the year of 1816., & Alconbury Weston is mentioned the most. Do you think that is enough information to request a look-up?
Sincerely,
Pat
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Hi Pat
Not sure what you mean by "request a look up". I thought you had requested a look up on the Requests board, but have had no replies. Some people request look ups with no information at all other than name, so you've got a mine of detail! There are no central baptism registers for Hunts other than the IGI and the BVRI which are both very incomplete, so a general lookup is not possible.
You can order the the Alconbury Weston microfilm from the LDS in your home town, Grand Forks, or you can buy the transcription on microfiche from Hunts FHS ( http://www.huntsfhs.org.uk/Publications/Fiche-8.html )
But I've just checked the BVRI and find that it contains Alconbury Weston baptisms and there's nothing showing around 1816. But there were Gray families living in the parish at that time judging by the burials that took place ie John aged 26 on 2 Jan 1815 and Charles aged 27 on 22 Apr 1817, either of whom might have been your William's father.
There were no Gray baptisms in Alconbury Weston between 1805, dau of Samuel and Ann (who married in 1802) and 1819 son of William and Mary Ann (married 1818, Wm was a widower - might your Wm have been from his first marriage?)
The only "reliable" age for William is in the 1851 census and that might be inaccurate. Ages over 15 in 1841 were rounded down to the 5 below so 25 could be anywhere between 25 and 29 ie birth between June 1811 and June 1816
Lots of "might"s but no hard facts I'm afraid.
But it doesn't look as though he was baptised in Alconbury Weston, although it would be a good idea to doublecheck the parish register. The family might of course have been non-conformist so didn't baptise their children in the established church.
As mentioned before, I would check with Huntingdon Records Office for details of that court case , and at the same time ask them if there are any parish chest records for Alconbury Weston.
Not sure if you've mentioned this earlier, but do you have his death certificate? It might just add something. Or his burial entry which might give his age? When you're struggling you need every scrap of information you can get.
Regards
David
PS I've just been going over the history of your requests, going back to 2004. In a very early thread you said you had information that he was christened at Southoe. Did you ever check the microfilm of Southoe parish register (film # 1040751)? They're not on the IGI or BVRI, nor is a transcription available, so the LDS microfilm is your only option - other than paying Huntingdon Records Office to look it up. You need to check out all leads before starting the search for the needle in the haystack.
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Hi, David. You are right. I did post a request. When I began all of this, I was using a genealogy compiled by a distant Gray relative (Alfred) who was born & died in the USA. He had done some research in England using what he knew from his father, William John b 1893, who was the son of William John b 1850 (migrated to the US), son of William & Harriet (Pryor/Prior) Gray. (These people really liked to use the same names over & over!)
I'm not sure how he came up with Southoe as the place of christening, but he had the date as 11 Oct 1818. I found this family, but William seemed to disappear early on, & I couldn't find any information to support this place.
The other information he had was as follows:
Children: Joseph b 1840 (changed his last name to Tayor to get into military service). Rhuben b 1842-6 (my g grandfather). Amelia b 1844 (came to the US). George Pryor b 1846 (came to the US, & I know some of that family). William John b 1850 (came to the US, & I also know some of that family).
Alfred b 1852 (came to US but went back to England).
In the 1881 census Rhuben is listed as a publican & farmer of 60 acres imploying 1 lab dwelling at Speed the Plough-Fen Public House, Woodwalton, Huntingdon where all their children were born with the exception of my grandfather who was born at Chatteris. (I have a note that says there was a William Gray listed in Pigot's, 1830, page 111.) Haven't found a copy of that directory yet.
In typing this I think I might be trying to go back too fast. I don't have my great grandfather's birth certificate. I know he was born at Alconbury, but would it give more information about his father?
The closest I can come for a death date for William is between 1852 & 1854 when Harriet married William Oliver.
Now that I've given you more information than you ever wanted to read, what do you suggest?
Sincerely,
Pat
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Hi Pat
On 17 Sept 2004 I suggested that you view the Southoe parish register at the LDS. That advice still holds good. As you have a LDS FHC in your home town hopefully that should be possible. It's not something that anyone else can do for you short of going to Huntingdon Records Office.
However in that same post I gave you details of a Southoe Gray family in 1841 and I wonder now if Southoe is a total red herring having found what seems to be the right William in Alconbury Weston in 1841. As the Southoe William was still at home unmarried in 1851 I think we can rule him out altogether, so it follows that the Southoe details obtained by your distant relative are for the wrong William.
Which is a pity as you are really back at square one!
All Rhuben's birth cert will give you is his father's name and occupation and mother's name including maiden name.
I've had a look at Pigot's 1830 but Hunts is on pages 499-515, so I don't know what paqe 111 would cover, but it doesn't look like your William Gray - as he would only have been 14 at the time it's unlikely to be him.
I think your next step has to be to contact Huntingdon Records Office as I suggested in my previous post
Regards
David
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Hi Pat,
Have just got a BMD for Alconbury Weston, do you want me to look anything up?
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Hi Beckey
Perhaps I might add a few requests until Pat gets online
Any Gray baptisms between 1805-1819 (the BVRI shows none, but something may have been missed)
Any details of the 1818 marriage of William Gray
Any details of the burials of John and Charles Gray in 1815 and 1817 respectively
Any trace of a burial of William Gray 1851-1855
Thanks and regards
David
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Hi, David & Beckey, David seems to have covered most of my questions, but I'm also wondering if there is a Gray marriage that might be William's parents during the time frame of 1814-1818? I know it would not be possible to tell, but it might give me something more to work on.
Thank you to both of you.
Sincerely,
Pat
PS I have been doing translations for FreeBMD for over a year.
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Hi David & Pat.
Alconbury cum Weston,(St Peter & St Paul).
2/1/1815 Gray John of London 26.
22/4/1817 Gray Charles of Weston 27.
No William Gray shown until 1868.
Baptisms.
25/12/1805 Gray Hannah daughter of Samuel & Ann.
18/6/1819 Gray James son of William & Mary Ann Basket Maker.
24/8/1820 Gray Samuel son of William & Mary Basket Maker.
Marriage.
28/10/1818 Gray William (x) Widower otp By Banns
Allen Mary Ann (x) sp otp.
Witness Joseph Sharp & George Williamson.
Hope these are of some help, let me know if there are any more you want.
Have also being doing some transcribing for FreeCen.
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Thanks Beckey.
So...
William wasn't baptised in Alconbury-Weston (which is not to say he wasn't born there
and just wasn't baptised)
Nor was he buried in A-W - but Pat, you say he would have died 1852-54.
I've checked FreeBMD and see Harriet didn't remarry William Oliver until the Dec
quarter 1859 so William's death might have been later than you think.
But Beckey confirms he wasn't buried in Alconbury Weston.
The previous marriage of a male Gray in A-W was in 1802, so no clues there. Nor
was the first wife of the William, widower otp who married in 1818 buried in A-W
(in fact there's only one female Gray buried in Hunts from 1810-18 of the right
age and she was Susannah buried St Neots 24 Nov 1817 age 22, but I don't
know if she was married or not).
I'm out of ideas other than Huntingdon records office as in my earlier post.
Regards
David
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Hi David,
Just to make sure have re checked and the only baptism was,
10/12/1788 Gray Wm s of John & Eliz his wife.
buried 20/4/1789 Wm s of John & Eliz.
1/4/1797 Gray William s of John & Eliz (BT Elizabeth).
I think the last one would be pushing it a bit to be married again in 1818.
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Hi David & Beckey.
Although William's children were born in Alconbury Weston, & he was living there in 1841 before his marriage, he & Harriet were married in Old Weston. Maybe he was born there. That would not be included in the Alconbury Weston births/baptisms, would it? Harriet (Prior) Gray was born in Winwick.
His father & mother would have been married sometime in the years before his birth - even up to 10 years before if there were other siblings? Or if he was the first child, they might have married the same year he was born.
When contacting the Huntingdon record office, do you have to have all the specific information before they will check?
Sincerely,
Pat
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Hi Pat
Old Weston was a separate parish, whose parish register has been filmed by the LDS, and has also been transcribed and is available on fiche from Hunts FHS for the princely sum of £4-50 according to their website at http://www.huntsfhs.org.uk/Publications/Fiche-8.html
There were no Gray burials there
Winwick and Old Weston are only a mile apart
There were 22 male Gray marriages in Hunts 1804-18, but none of them leap out and hit you as being the one.
You have the reference for the quarter sessions entry, so Huntingdon should be able to trace that without any trouble, and the only charge should be for photocopying.. In Alconbury Weston you are looking for any Gray entries in the parish chest say 1810-1855, particularly any involving settlement issues; and in Old Weston you just need a baptism check for William. You don't need to provide them with any other information - but this would probably be classed as research so they would charge for this - http://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/leisure/archives/what/hrs/
Good luck
David
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Hi. I think I have found my William Gray. I sent a request to the Huntingdon Record Office, & the archives assistant there, not only replied to me, but also sent my request on to the Cambridge Record Office. They very quickly answered with the following:
Dear Pat Flaagan,
My colleague Laura Ibbet has passed your enquiry to me here at the Record office in Cambridge concerning your query into William Gray's birthplace as appears in the census. 'Cambridge Well' is a generic term for Upwell and Outwell. We then checked the Cambs. Baptism Index which confirms that he was born in Upwell.
I hope this information helps.
Yours sincerely
Yaye Tang
Archives Assistant
Since they found him in a Baptism Index, does that mean there is a certificate that I can request?
Sincerely,
Pat Flaagan
(on a very hot day in Grand Forks, North Dakota USA)
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There were no certificates before 1837.
The baptism index is on http://www.cambridgeshirehistory.com/cgi-bin/baptismindex.cgi, but I can't see him born 1816
You could ask for a copy of the baptism entry in the parish register. Or you could see if the LDS has filmed the parish register and view the microfilm at your local LDS Family History Center.
Regards
David
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In other words, don't get excited yet. I don't see William Gray either in the link you sent. I think I will first request a copy of the baptism entry & see what I get.
Maybe the request that was relayed to the Cambridge Record Office wasn't as specific as the one I sent to the Huntingdon Record Office.
The LDS that we have seems to be in someone's home. I will have to wait until next week to try & contact them.
Thanks for your continuing interest & help.
Sincerely,
Pat F.
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Please could anyone help me contact the pflaagan who originated this search. I am William's great grand daughter, alfred was my grand father.
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Hi janalcgg
pflaagan was last active on this site in August 2010. When you have posted 3 messages here you can try sending her a Personal Message by clicking on the green scroll icon found under her name on the left of the screen. Hopefully she is in good health, though her age given on her profile is not young.
Gillg
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thanks for the advice. I will do as you suggest.
Jan
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thanks for the advice. I will do as you suggest.
Jan
Hi Jan. It took me a while to find your post. I emailed you through Genes Reunited, but they wanted to charge me for sending it so it took me some extra time to located you. My email address is *
Waiting to hear from you!(*)
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