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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Nell1707 on Tuesday 12 April 16 10:20 BST (UK)
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Hi
I wonder if any of you folks could help us understand the locket in the photos below.
Our family hail from a tiny village in Normandy. They've been there since records began and our branch moved to the Channel Islands in the 1880s. Other family members stayed in France, but we've lost track of them. Anyway, I found this locket and am puzzled by both the Amiens engraving (we have no connection with Amiens, that we know) and the British coat of arms. Does that signify something in particular? Google searches have not come up with anything useful. Only one of the Jersey family fought in WW1 and he died in Belgium in 1914, so before the battle of Amiens. Might it have something to do with the treaty of Amiens, 1802?? The ivy decoration - suggests fidelity?? A wedding gift perhaps?? I can't see any hallmarks on it; I don't even know if it's silver. But it is puzzling us and we feel that if we knew more about the meaning of the locket, we might be able to work out how it came to be in the family, and, maybe even identify the chap in the picture (who looks for all the world like he's taking a selfie!!)
Any input would be really appreciated.
Thanks.
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Just a thought - have you had the locket dated?
Could the old man have fought in the 1870 battle of Amien when I see about 1,383 French soldiers were killed and wounded, and about 1,000 were declared to be missing. The Prussians lost 1,216 soldiers and 76 officers
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Interesting piece and even more interesting puzzle.
What is the piece of paper in the other half of the locket?
It is likely to be silver or white gold. Have you checked with a magnifying glass for any hallmarks? They should give an indication of country of origin, date and composition of the metal.
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Hi, it's certainly a lovely thing to have, one thing I notice, I thought at first it was the coat of arms of Queen Victoria, (It may well be :) ) , however I notice that if that is a unicorn on the right it doesn't appear to have a horn but a crown :-\
May well be nothing as I don't know anything about coats of arms, and I may just be pedantic ;D
Frank.
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Wow! Good observation Frank!
Is the writing about the photo?
It is a lovely thing isn't it! I wonder if the wreath has significance . . It looks like holly??
Wiggy
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And again ;D , could that be some kind of hall mark on the inside of the ring? presumably a chain went through it, or is it just worn away?
Frank.
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This looks similar to the Coat of Arms on the back of the locket
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coats_of_arms_of_Europe#/media/File:Royal_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg
perhaps an earlier version of it....
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I wonder if the wreath has significance . . It looks like holly??
Looks more like ivy to me. :)
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I thought this one, but I'm not sure regarding the "Unicorn" but that looks to be the only difference.
Frank.
http://www.allposters.co.uk/-sp/The-Royal-Coat-of-Arms-of-Queen-Victoria-Posters_i1877551_.htm
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I am wondering if there is writing in the black at the bottom of the inside of the frame - bottom of last photo?
Could be ivy Geoff - wondered then saw the berries. Still could be ivy though.
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I thought this one, but I'm not sure regarding the "Unicorn" but that looks to be the only difference.
Frank.
http://www.allposters.co.uk/-sp/The-Royal-Coat-of-Arms-of-Queen-Victoria-Posters_i1877551_.htm
and the Angel instead of the harp in the bottom left quadrant..
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Strange how little things pop out the more you study something ;)
Frank.
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I think it is ivy. Also, if it was white gold then it would probably date from 1920 onwards, with a very slight possibillity of dating from 1911 onwards. Although only seeing a photo, it looks like silver to me.
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Just looked carefully again . . . definitely ivy - wrong leaves for holly aren't they!! :-[ ;D
Nell . . . is it writing in the other half or the locket . . . and if so, can you read it?
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Hi guys
Thanks for your interest. The paper in the locket is glued in and I haven't tried to take it out. Neither have I tried to take out the photo of the man, as I'm scared to damage it, and not be able to replace it. But it might be worth the attempt. I'll have another look tonight. There is nothing written on the paper - I assumed it was the back of a photo which someone had tried to take out.
The locket is quite light and I've looked all over for a hallmark. I'm pretty sure it's not white gold. (I don't have luck like that!!! :P) but it could be silver.
Apparently ivy means fidelity in the language of flowers, which is why I thought it might have something to do with a wedding. But if the family were separated, it might have been a gift from a family member who stayed in France???
It's the coat of arms which really piques my interest though. Why is it there? What has it got to do with Amiens?? The treaty of Amiens was signed in 1802 to mark the end of the war between France and Britian. A nice connection to the markings on the locket, but what has that to do with a wee peasant family in Normandy??
Wiggy - I see what you mean about the possible writing at the bottom of the inside of the frame. I never noticed that before, so I'll check it out tonight. Thanks for the spot!
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The Emblazon looks like the Royal Arms (Unicorns are sometimes shown without a horn viz James VI) When emphasising England rather than Scotland the Unicorn is on the left and the lion on the right.
However I cannot make out the motto to see if that is correct.
I wonder if it also contained a lock of hair at some time perhaps as a love token or possibly more likely a mourning locket.
Cheers
Guy
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There appears to be an inner ring which secures the photo. Is it possible to carefully ease that up? On Antiques Roadshow they use something similar to a pen knife with a flat blade.
Is there glass over the photo?
A careful wipe with a cloth might remove some of the discolouration and show a hallmark - there should be one somewhere, though it may be behind the photo.
If you don't feel confident removing the paper or the photo if you have a well established jeweller in your area you might wish to ask their advice. I would not take it to a cheap jewellery chain though, rather one with a jeweller in residence. Having said that, it would be devastating if the photo was to tear no matter how careful someone was in trying to remove it.
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On enlarging the photograph the motto looks to be the same as the one in the link on post number 8
Frank.
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It does not help much..but
The gents shoulder is behind someone or something else in the pic.
bookmarking as interested 😀
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It does not help much..but
The gents shoulder is behind someone or something else in the pic.
bookmarking as interested 😀
Mmm, I wonder if it has been cut from a larger photograph, possibly a family group.
Frank.
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Have a look at Amiens Heraldry on this webpage. It's definitely ivy, meaning "the loyalty and the constant alliance of the city to the French crown".
http://www.ngw.nl/heraldrywiki/index.php?title=Amiens
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I was wondering if there might be a hallmark under the photo or the glued-in piece of paper, but I'm not sure I'd be brave enough to investigate. Alternatively, it's not pewter, is it? In which case there wouldn't be a hallmark. My feeling is that the royal arms mark it out as an English (or British) piece, and that Amiens has been engraved later, in a rather less formal style than the arms suggest.
As for its origins, it may be relevant that during WW1 there were thousands of British civilians in northern France doing volunteer work. There were nurses looking after the injured, and others who worked with the YMCA and other organisations in huts providing rest, recreation and refreshments for off-duty troops on their way to or from the front line. I wonder if maybe the locket could be evidence of a romance involving a lady volunteer, in or near Amiens.
Many of the volunteers' names can now be found on the Lives of the First World War website, and some on medal rolls etc too, but until fairly recently, much of the evidence for their involvement has been in their own family stories, letters and papers etc. If you have any possible names for ladies who could have served in this way, it might be interesting to search for them on the Lives website to see what comes up.
Arthur
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Oooh - that's an interesting take on things ArthurK. I'll definitely look into that. Thanks.
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Could the locket have been created from two coins. Some coins did have the Royal Arms on. There are some remarkable artefacts fashioned from all manner of objects by soldiers for their loved ones.
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Hi
I sent the photos to an online valuer who said this:
Our provisional thought is that the inscription was engraved at a later date, and is mainly decorative. We would expect it to originate from about 1880-1915.
So, it might not even be French.
The waters are even muddier now than ever :-\
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The waters are even muddier now than ever :-\
The joys of family history ;D
Frank :)
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The waters are even muddier now than ever :-\
The joys of family history ;D
Frank :)
What would be the fun if it was solved instantly... ;) ;D
We'd all have completed family trees and then what would we do.... ;D
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I found this on line, the description is - Coat of arms pin, England lion unicorn crown, Dieu et mon droit, pewter brooch. This was for sale, it did not have a date. They look to have a similar engraving
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honi_soit_qui_mal_y_pense
the motto around the shield
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I found this on line, the description is - Coat of arms pin, England lion unicorn crown, Dieu et mon droit, pewter brooch. This was for sale, it did not have a date. They look to have a similar engraving
That definitely looks the same :) good find.
Frank.
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Same crest for sure. I'm pretty my locket is pewter.
I'll be in Glasgow in a couple of weeks time, so I'll take it with me and see if an antique shop can throw any more light on its composition, date etc.
Can't help but notice the fleur de lis decoration around the edge of the pewter pin.... I'm seeing French connections everywhere now!! ::)
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Not Prince of Wales feathers are they - never sure of the difference - :-[ ;)
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Good evening,
The unicorn with crown usually means a Scottish connection in heraldry. Sometimes the horn is still there rising immediately in front of the crown.
The motto on the garter is "Shamed be he who thinks evil of it"
The motto on the scroll underneath is "God and my right"
It is a royal coat of arms but that doesn't mean it is in use by a royal personage. It may be any member of the nobility given the right to use it by the monarch of the time. The style of the crown should give the date range for the coat of arms but I have been unable to find the site that explains it. (One of the many favourites lost when I changed to windows 10).
Perhaps posting on the heraldry pages will draw out more people with expertise on the matter.
John915
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John915 - that's a great suggestion. Thanks. I'll try that :)
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Good evening,
The unicorn with crown usually means a Scottish connection in heraldry. Sometimes the horn is still there rising immediately in front of the crown.
The motto on the garter is "Shamed be he who thinks evil of it"
The motto on the scroll underneath is "God and my right"
It is a royal coat of arms but that doesn't mean it is in use by a royal personage. It may be any member of the nobility given the right to use it by the monarch of the time. The style of the crown should give the date range for the coat of arms but I have been unable to find the site that explains it. (One of the many favourites lost when I changed to windows 10).
Perhaps posting on the heraldry pages will draw out more people with expertise on the matter.
John915
As I posted on the Heraldry thread, it is the (English) Royal Arms as used by the Government.
If it was the Scottish Royal Arms, the Scottish Lion would be in quarters 1 and 4, with England (3 lions) in quarter 2. The Irish Harp is always in quarter 3.
Scotland also has the unicorn on the left (dexter) side, and the lion on the right (sinister) side.
The arms are contained within the Garter (Order of the Garter) and are not on a shield.
Indicating that this version was not a personal set of Arms.
The monarch's Royal Arms also has a helm on the top and mantling.
The Government version has a crown.
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_coat_of_arms_of_the_United_Kingdom#Government
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The shape of the crown suggests it is Victorian. In the 20th century a different style seems to have been used.
The ivy wreath could symbolise eternity, constancy, fidelity, friendship (everlasting love?).
A gentle rub on the inside rim could indicate if the black is tarnished silver.
It is probably coincidental that ivy relates to Amiens.
A story (pure fantasy, but it might turn out to have some accuracy):
Picture if you will, a young man joining the army.
As he leaves, his parents give him the locket father gave to mother when they were courting. Inside are photographs of his parents cut from a family group picture.
While in Amiens, the soldier meets a French girl and is smitten. He gets the locket engraved "Amiens" and gives it to his sweetheart.
The soldier goes back to the war. Who knows what happened to him.
The French girl keeps the locket as a reminder of their love.
Perhaps she married a man from Normandy and moved there.
Perhaps she came from Normandy but was working in Amiens (as a nurse, maybe).
Even if it's not true it's a good story!
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A story (pure fantasy, but it might turn out to have some accuracy):
Picture if you will, a young man joining the army.
As he leaves, his parents give him the locket father gave to mother when they were courting. Inside are photographs of his parents cut from a family group picture.
While in Amiens, the soldier meets a French girl and is smitten. He gets the locket engraved "Amiens" and gives it to his sweetheart.
The soldier goes back to the war. Who knows what happened to him.
The French girl keeps the locket as a reminder of their love.
Perhaps she married a man from Normandy and moved there.
Perhaps she came from Normandy but was working in Amiens (as a nurse, maybe).
Even if it's not true it's a good story!
That's a great story Philipsearching! There's a novel in there, for sure :)
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A story (pure fantasy, but it might turn out to have some accuracy):
Picture if you will, a young man joining the army.
As he leaves, his parents give him the locket father gave to mother when they were courting. Inside are photographs of his parents cut from a family group picture.
While in Amiens, the soldier meets a French girl and is smitten. He gets the locket engraved "Amiens" and gives it to his sweetheart.
The soldier goes back to the war. Who knows what happened to him.
The French girl keeps the locket as a reminder of their love.
Perhaps she married a man from Normandy and moved there.
Perhaps she came from Normandy but was working in Amiens (as a nurse, maybe).
Even if it's not true it's a good story!
That's a great story Philipsearching! There's a novel in there, for sure :)
Or a film...or period drama :)
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I think that the crown depicted atop the coat-of-arms is St Edwards Crown, which is used to crown monarchs.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_%28heraldry%29#Commonwealth_usage
But remember that, in heraldry things are never exact (unless a named crown is stipulated) and artistic licence ensues ;D
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Good afternoon,
Good evening,
The unicorn with crown usually means a Scottish connection in heraldry. Sometimes the horn is still there rising immediately in front of the crown.
The motto on the garter is "Shamed be he who thinks evil of it"
The motto on the scroll underneath is "God and my right"
It is a royal coat of arms but that doesn't mean it is in use by a royal personage. It may be any member of the nobility given the right to use it by the monarch of the time. The style of the crown should give the date range for the coat of arms but I have been unable to find the site that explains it. (One of the many favourites lost when I changed to windows 10).
Perhaps posting on the heraldry pages will draw out more people with expertise on the matter.
John915
As I posted on the Heraldry thread, it is the (English) Royal Arms as used by the Government.
If it was the Scottish Royal Arms, the Scottish Lion would be in quarters 1 and 4, with England (3 lions) in quarter 2. The Irish Harp is always in quarter 3.
Scotland also has the unicorn on the left (dexter) side, and the lion on the right (sinister) side.
The arms are contained within the Garter (Order of the Garter) and are not on a shield.
Indicating that this version was not a personal set of Arms.
The monarch's Royal Arms also has a helm on the top and mantling.
The Government version has a crown.
see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_coat_of_arms_of_the_United_Kingdom#Government
Appreciated KG, however I didn't say it was a Scottish royal arms. I merely pointed out that a crowned unicorn could mean a Scottish connection as English unicorns are not crowned. The Scottish ones are.
If Nell takes a look around the edge there may be signs that hallmarks have been stamped inside of it. They were often not placed on the larger decorated surfaces as it would damage the decoration on the outside when punched in.
John915
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removed as not relevant to the 1st image.
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6th Dragoon gaurds (the carabineers) held battle honours at Amentieres in 1914, honi soit qui mal y pense was their moto, perhaps someone in your Jersey family inherited this locket and it was the momento of their father (the other side of the locket perhaps held the mother)? Seems to be an older man? Very likely he does not bear the families current surname?
We have weird items from great great aunts that had no children and we have no idea where they came from.
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The Norman FRench motto "Honi soit qui mal y pense" is the motto of The Order of the Garter and appears in many heraldic items that are somehow associated with the Order.
E.G. 1st Duke of Marlborough
Royal Coat Of Arms
Courts of England & Wales
British Government official documents
Current British Passports
The Times
Royal Yacht Brittania
High Constables of Edinburgh
British Army
Royal Horse Artillery
Household Cavalry Regiment
Life Guards Regiment
Blues and Royals
Grenadier Guards
Coldstream Guards
Princess of Wales' Royal Regiment
Royal Regiment of Fusiliers
Corps of Royal Engineers
the Royal Logistic Corps
. . . . the list is endless! ;D
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I wonder how many of the organisations were in Amiens or had links with Amiens?
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Amiens is a male first name.
There is a character named Amiens in Shakespeare's play, As You Like It.
I'm not saying this is why the name is engraved on the locket, but it is a slim possibility it's a name of a person rather than the place.