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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Pennines on Monday 11 April 16 18:43 BST (UK)
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I'm sorry - this is really cheeky, but I was wondering if anyone had a Dublin Street Directory for the late 1930s please.
If anyone does - would you mind looking up;
42 Cowper Road, Rathmines please.
I would like to know who was living there at that time. I am expecting it to be a Doctor - maybe a Doctor Fine. (Just googling the address brought up a Probate for an Annie Fine in 1945).
My mother in law gave this as her address when she married in 1939. (She was a Cook and maybe lived in - it would be great to know who she was working for.)
Many thanks to anyone who can kindly help.
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39/40 Voters list, Arthur, Emilena, Iris Kirkpatrick and Mary Daly
http://databases.dublincity.ie/electoral/advanced.php (http://databases.dublincity.ie/electoral/advanced.php)
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Oh my goodness -- thank you SO very much for your help and your very speedy reply.
Mary Daly was my mother in law (prior to her marriage). That is just brilliant.
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Thoms Directory .. 42 Cowper road (the house is called Lis-na-Crun or Lis-na-Crum)
1937 - A H Kirkpatrick
1941 - " "
1956 - Erwin Goldwater
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My grateful thanks for your help and time.
'Lis Na Crun' appears to mean 'The Net Crown' (according to a google search). Seems a really strange name to give to a house --- unless this has some underlying meaning that I'm unaware of.
I had previously tried looking for this house on Google street view. The house numbers on Cowper Road APPEAR to run consecutively -- 'walked' along it -- got to 41 -- then found that 42 was completely obscured by large trees - and not only that - there were road works immediately outside of it!
For you 2 kind people to find the Electoral Roll (absolute bonus that I hadn't even considered) - and the street directory really makes up for that disappointment.
Thank you so much to both of you.
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Arthur Kirkpatrick and Emilena Nolan
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Terenure/Florina_Villas/46068/
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That is interesting Dathai.
I am researching my husband's ancestors (he was born in Dublin but left when he was 5 as his father spent his career in the RAF - so the family were all over the place - and he and his siblings know virtually nothing about the early life of their Irish parents - don't know their grandparents etc)
We do know his mother was a cook in Dublin (after presumably leaving her home in Westmeath). We had understood that she worked for a Doctor's family.
In 1939/40 she is included on the Electoral register helpfully provided by Athacliath with this Kirkpatrick family. However Arthur H Kirkpatrick wasn't a Doctor on the 1911 census you have found.
He is clearly in a business of some sort - as another address is provided for him on the Electoral Roll. I will explore that address out of interest.
(He liked houses with fancy names didn't he!)
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If you use the link for all years you will see a person named FINE was living there from 1959 to 1964!
LINK to search at (http://databases.dublincity.ie/electoral/advanced.php)
I searched for FINE and 42 Cowper Road
editted to add - just realised the address was more important than the name!
Just to note Simon FINE married Annie GAFSON on April 22 1912
Both are shown on the 1911 census as Jewish born in Russia/Poland for Simon and Russia for Annie
On the electoral register Arthur Kirkpatrick gives a second address 22 Temple Bar
This was most likely his work address
Bearing in mind house numbers were as assigned by the emunerators rather than fixed as we know today - in 1911 the head of the family at No. 23 was a William DALY! LINK (http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000177938/)
Arthur Hugh Fiztpatrick was, I think, a Dentist
based on an immigration records that are difficult to read from 1950s;
he was travelling with a dental surgeon
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Hi Myluck,
You have been busy with this - thank you very much indeed.
It was my fault I mentioned the name 'Fine' - as googling the address had brought up a probate record for an Annie Fine in the 1940s and quoted that address.
I intend to explore the other address shown on the Electoral Roll for Arthur H Kirkpatrick - in 1911 he was 32 and a Commercial Agent (there is then another word I cannot decipher - could be 'Grocery'.) Seems an odd - and rather late change of career to become a Doctor or a Dentist - if he did.
My husband and siblings had been told that their Mum, Mary Ellen Daly, worked as a Cook for a Doctor in Dublin - that is all they know about this particular period of her life --- (the only other thing being that she was born in Collinstown, Westmeath and lived near a bog!!)
The William Daly you cleverly found is a coincidence as far as I know - but thank you for mentioning it - it might not have been.
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I am beyond excitement at the moment!
There is a public tree on ancestry with photographs of Arthur H Kirkpatrick and his wife approx 1940 - when my mother in law would have known them!
I just had to share this with all of you who have kindly been helping me.
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Myluck - after you tipped me off about the passenger lists to America, I have discovered he went several times -- (visiting his sister who lived there).
On one passenger record Arthur Kirkpatrick's occupation was Manufacturer - on another it was DIRECTOR. I strongly suspect that my mother in law, working as a young teenage cook in that household - THOUGHT that he was a Doctor - she had probably never heard of an occupation called DIRECTOR - whilst she was living in rural Westmeath.
Phew - I hope my assumption is correct - it's a theory I will write into the Daly story anyway.
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Emilena's brother Francis was a doctor
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Pembroke_East___Donnybrook/Sandymount_Green/1285854/
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Dathai - you are like Sherlock Holmes!
That muddies the water of my theory a little. Francis wasn't living with the Kirkpatrick family on the 1939/40 electoral roll. I will try and find him on that though. If he was near to the family Mary Ellen may have worked for him also, but still lived in with the Kirkpatricks. You never know.
Thank you for that find.
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Myluck - after you tipped me off about the passenger lists to America, I have discovered he went several times -- (visiting his sister who lived there).
On one passenger record Arthur Kirkpatrick's occupation was Manufacturer - on another it was DIRECTOR. I strongly suspect that my mother in law, working as a young teenage cook in that household - THOUGHT that he was a Doctor - she had probably never heard of an occupation called DIRECTOR - whilst she was living in rural Westmeath.
Phew - I hope my assumption is correct - it's a theory I will write into the Daly story anyway.
I didn't go through all the immigration records but one looked like Director Dental and the next person listed was Surgeon Dental - He could of course have been referred to as Dr. if a Dentist!
I have also seen the family pics on the tree online - wouldn't it be lovely if your OH's mum had gone on a picnic!!
I'm not sure where the FINEs fitted with the family but their son became a Chemist ;)
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Francis wasn't living with the Kirkpatrick family on the 1939/40 electoral roll. I will try and find him on that though. If he was near to the family Mary Ellen may have worked for him also, but still lived in with the Kirkpatricks. You never know.
Thank you for that find.
It may just be that there were medical connections and that her employer described himself as a Doctor rather than trying to explain exactly what he was! Shouldn't happen today with misrepresentation but there are still people who give a vague description of their jobs to save a long explanation of a rare or unusual role!
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Myluck -- Mary Daly's connection to the picnic would probably have been to prepare it and place it in baskets!
I have downloaded the photo of Arthur H and his wife - and contacted the owner out of courtesy to explain why I have done this (I always feel it is really cheeky to just 'pinch' other peoples photographs without telling them.)
It is a bonus to be able to actually SEE her employers.
Do you know since I first started this query with a request for a Street Directory entry -- and I was given the link to the Electoral Rolls (which I hadn't known existed on line) - I seem to have been given SO much wonderful information that I hadn't expected. It's been brilliant.
(I do get really excited about these things.)
Thank you so much once again.
(I'll probably never really know about the 'Doctor' thing - I'll just have to write what I know in the family history 'story' for my husband and his siblings.)
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Continue to enjoy -
Mary probably did prepare the picnic and was at home cleaning up but I always hold out hope that someone will lurk in the background and solve my puzzles! My OH didn't have a photo of his grandfather and when a distant cousin gave us a family wedding photo there he was in the background with his wife!
Continue good luck and excitement - and yes there are some great sites out there we know little of
Our local library has a history section - LINK (http://www.southdublinhistory.ie/) but it is just South Dublin and doesn't include the city
They give online access to Thoms and other directories for South Dublin only - LINK (http://source.southdublinlibraries.ie/)
On this one is the 1955 Thoms and shows A H Kirkpatrick living at 24 Crannagh Road in Rathfarnham
Open pdf and it is on page 13 on the right (page is 1518 in the actual book) LINK (http://source.southdublinlibraries.ie/handle/10599/5198)
This is the address he is shown as his last on the English 1960 probate
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Thank you Myluck for your encouraging message --- and also for the links you have kindly provided.
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I just thought I would let all the people who kindly helped me so much with my query have some feedback.
You may recall that my mother in law had said she worked for a Doctor in Dublin -- she didn't!
We knew she was living with a family at 42 Cowper Rd when she married -- and had discovered that the home owner was Arthur Hugh Kirkpatrick.
I have been in touch with the tree owner on the Ancestry site who has Arthur Hugh Kirkpatrick's family in her tree, complete with a photograph of them. The tree owner has now uploaded a photograph of the actual house onto her tree - where the family and my mother in law (their servant) - were living on the 1939/40 Electoral Roll. So I now have a photo of BOTH the house and the employers.
In addition she tells me that Arthur Hugh Kirkpatrick, his brother and brother in law were business owners -- mainly they were importing agents --- goods such as Bryant and May matches, Finlay soap, Robertson's jam etc.
What a fantastic outcome and I am so very grateful to you all.
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You're very welcome! Enjoy the success and here's to many more!
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Hello. I was interested to read of your interest in the families who lived at 42 Cowper Road, Rathmines. My husband, Mike, has some information, including photographs, that may be of interest as his uncle (Erwin Goldwater) lived there and Mike visited with his mother as a boy (there's a photo of him with his mother and uncle, sitting on the steps of the house, and others involving members of the Fine family). If you'd like to see the photos, please do get in touch.
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Hi Mary,
Thank you for your message and for your very kind offer of photographs of that particular house. What a coincidence.
It was a few years ago now when I was seeking information about that house, I was researching my husband's family history. His mother had worked there as a cook. I completed my research and distributed the details to the family in 2016. I had managed to obtain photos of the house from someone who had a family tree on Ancestry.
As a result I don't need photographs now, thank you - but I am so appreciative of your very kind offer.
Thank you so much.