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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: jesika jae on Wednesday 06 April 16 22:45 BST (UK)
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I had so much information about my granddad James Kelly that I thought it would be easy.
3 WW1 medals
Pte 15846 Notts & Derby Regiment
Sgt 13010 Machine Gun Corps
Age 20 married Nellie Richardson 5 Jan 1916 Mansfield.
Age 32 died 5 Feb 1927 Hemsworth, Yorkshire.
With grateful thanks to Australian Jeff, looking for his wife's grandmother, I now know James was the first of many children born to James Kelly (of course!) 1875 Whitwick – 1951 Nottingham, and Ellen Slattery 1875 Whitwick – Rotherham 1955.
They married 8 March 1897 in Whitwick.
1901 31 March, census, the family lived at Glass Houghton, Yorkshire.
James Jr was 4 years old, born Whitwick no date.
Catherine was 3 years old born Mexborough, 10 March 1898.
Thomas is 10 months old, born Whitwick, 1900
We have been unable to find a birth registration for James Jr, despite there being a hefty £2 fine for non-compliance.
There are very strong family links to the Ashby de la Zouch area of Leicestershire: Whitwick, Osgathorpe, Hugglescote and Blackfordby.
Ellen Slattery's parents were:
Michael Slattery 1852–1893 & Emma Kendrick 1850–1929
Emma Kendrick's parents were:
Thomas Kendrick 1829–1893 & Sarah King 1831–1901
Prominent family names are Kendrick, Slattery, King and Varnham, all with large families, many of similar ages to James Jr & Ellen.
The question remains, where (?Whitwick) when and to whom was James Kelly (189? - 1927), my grandfather born?
The dates of marriage & death are confirmed by certificates, but the ages at 1901 census, marriage & death don't correspond.
I'll be enormously grateful for any ideas which will help solve this mysterious mystery and as before, offer thanks to those who so willingly offered help in 2015.
Jesika 6 April 2016
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have you worked out a more accurate date of birth from his army papers?
the ones I've looked at give the age in years and so many months and the forms have the date they enlisted.
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Could you give further details from the marriage cert? Who were witnesses -father's name and occupation age of james
Suz
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His age in 1901 would indicate he was born 1896/early 1897.
If born before his parents married 8/3/1897 his birth should be registered as Slattery.
No James Slattery born that time/area either but there was an Arthur Slattery birth reg'd June qtr.1896 Ashby de la Zouch - I can find no further trace of this Arthur apart from his birth. Could this possibly have been your James? Did his mother register him in the name of Arthur and James Kelly not happy with that and wanted him named after him??
Just a thought since this 'Arthur Slattery' effectively 'disappears' after the birth registration.
Annette
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If he were 4 at the 1901 census then he could well have been born just before his parents marriage and be registered as Slattery - couldn't see any obvious candidates
Have you found him on the 1911 census? does that give a different place of birth
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Given the dates of Ellen & James' marriage, Catherine's birth, and the disappearance of Arthur Slattery b 1896, I had come to the same conclusion as Annette, but she beat me to it ;) - especially as Ellen had a brother named Arthur Slattery.
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I was astonished to find 5 replies to my quest for granddad James Kelly this morning. My thanks to you all.
Dawnsh, sadly Granddad's enlistment papers were among the 90% destroyed in the blitz. All I have is his medal roll entry, no help at all.
Suzard, James was 20 when he married Nellie, Jan 5 1916.
He was a miner pre-war & Pte 15846 Notts & Derby Regiment at his marriage.
Great Granddad was witness, a miner and Pte in KOYLI regiment.
Gran's sister was the other witness.
Annette7, we had considered that the stork came early, or that possibly another family member had had the baby who was “adopted” by James & Ellen because they were getting married.
The “Arthur” question: Gran's dad was Thomas Arthur and we all believed that Uncle Jim (James Arthur) was named for him. Uncle Jim's first son was James, his second Arthur!
Mother thought her dad was James Arthur, but he died when she was 2 so she had no recollection of him & Grandmother never spoke about him.
Marriage & death certificates just say “James”.
Perhaps too many coincidences to dismiss?
iolaus, the family did not feature in the 1911 census but were in Mansfield Nov 22 1911 when a daughter was born.
I had considered that they supported the Suffragette movement & declined to complete the census as many supporters did.
Jomot, the “Arthur” theory is sounding increasingly plausible.
Thank you very much for your interest and replies. I think I need to contact the Reg Office at Leicestershire to try to get a birth certificate. I'm not sure if the names of both parents would be shown if the child was an "early delivery".
Thank you again
jj (070416)
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I wonder if he was Arthur James (maybe adding the James at baptism) originally but always used them the other way round
I have one relative in law whose birth certificate her names are the wrong way round - born as Lily Norah, marries and dies as Norah Lily (and went by Norah - I believe all her pension etc had her as Norah - I know her telegram from the Queen and from Downing Street on her 100th birthday were addressed to her as Norah - her father's army records from when she was 5 months old have her as Norra so from a very early age she was known by her middle name and obviously switched them around
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Thanks, iolaus, good idea, but marriage & death certificates just mention James, but that's not definitive, is it? Mother never said Arthur James, it was always the other way round.
I regret now that none of us ever questioned the extra surname or why grandmother didn't speak about her first husband.
But thanks to Rootschat, the mysterious mystery could be almost solved...
jj (070416)
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jj
You could always apply for the birth certificate of the Arthur Slattery birth June 1896 and just stipulate mothers name of Ellen Slattery, with no mention of father. Indeed, if it was an illegitimate birth the father won't be named anyway. If it's not her, they won't send it and believe they'll simply refund you.
Worth a shot.
Annette
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If you go down that route you must not use the reference number.
As you make your application online tick the box for "reference number not known" and then you get the screen to specify further informtion.
If you order with a reference number you don't get that further information option and you'll get that cert whether it is right or wrong.
This service still cost £9.25 but takes about 15 working days. If the mothers name doesn't make you'll get your money back.
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Good morning, Annette, Dawn.
Guess what my planned job for today is - exactly what you both suggested!
I'm going to request Ellen's birth certificate too.
Looking closely at the marriage certificate of James & Ellen in Whitwick Register Office, there's just a line under "rank or profession". Maybe she was busy being a mum....
It also looks as if she's 32 & he's 21. It's the right Ellen, though, her dad was already dead & he's "deceased" and we've already established that she was born 1874.
Maybe I could contact Whitwick churches to see if they have Baptism records.
Thank you once again.
jj (080416)
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Waiting for birth certificates (impatiently) so checked 1881 & 1891 censuses for more clues.
1881 Slattery at 243 Talbot Street, Kelly at 280 Talbot Street.
1891 Slattery at the same address, Kelly missing.
Ellen & James must have known each other in childhood, probably went to school together.
When Ellen Slattery & James Kelly married in 1897, James was at Brookes Lane & Ellen at Cademan Street, James a miner as was his father, Ellen a shoe stover???
jj
140416
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I have just found some baptisms and Arthur!
Whitwick, Holy Cross Roman Catholic
Slattery Arthur
Birth 22-May 1896
Baptism 26-Jul 1896
Helen Slattery
Kelly Catherine
Birth 10-Mar 1898
Baptism 14-May 1898
James Ellen Slattery
Kelly Francis
Birth 02-May 1899
Baptism 24-May 1899
James Helen Slattery
Kelly Thomas
Birth 31-May 1900
Baptism 27-Jun 1900
James Helen Slattery
Michael and Emma also baptise their children there
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Solved, the mystery of my elusive granddad!
It is impossible for me to thank individually each person who has contributed to finding James Kelly 1896-1927.
If you read this, you know who you are and that I am deeply indebted to you.
The major breakthrough came when Australian Jeff was searching for his wife's grandmother, Catherine Kelly 1898. She was confirmed as the sister of James Kelly in the 1901 census which also revealed the first mention of a place and approximate birth year for James.
James remained elusive. I accepted that he was almost certainly illegitimate, maybe even born to another family member, “adopted” by James Kelly (1874) & Ellen Slattery as they were getting married and then known as James Kelly.
Baby Arthur was born to Ellen Slattery, May 22 1896 and Willsy found his baptism record in Holy Cross RC church, Whitwick, 26 July 1896. She also found baptism records for James & Ellen's other children, Catherine, born in Mexborough, Francis who I assume died as I have no knowledge of this baby, and Thomas.
The evidence is compelling, the only caveat being the spelling of Ellen's name. In all the records I have found, she is Ellen but in 3 of her children's baptism records she is Helen, all other details correspond.
I am unclear about RC baptisms but John Kelly & Ellen Wall were born in County Mayo in 1839 & 1841, marrying in Staffordshire 20 years later which may explain that.
I offer my thanks those who thought sideways & found baby Arthur Slattery & to Willsy who found baptism records.
Many, many thanks to all who have made it possible for me on May 22 2016, to be able, for the first time, to celebrate Granddad Kelly's birthday.
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I have a Hannah who in some of her children's baptisms is Anna (luckily she always includes her unusual middle name) - so Ellen and Helen I'd accept as being the same person, and the vicar sometimes assuming there was a dropped 'h' in her name
Pleased for you that you found him
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Like you, Iolaus, I thought the priest had decided Ellen had dropped the "H" in "Helen".
The search is over, the questions answered, just a couple of certificates to arrive.
So many people to thank for their help and all I can is "Thank you."
180416
jj
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I had hoped that all questions would be answered with the arrival of Arthur Slattery's birth certificate and that his birth address would be Cademan Street, from where Ellen was married but he was born in the Union Workhouse in Ashby de la Zouch, May 22 1896. I believe admissions/discharges still exist at the Records Office in Wigston which will perhaps confirm the Cademan Street address.
Unfortunately, it's not 100% certain that James Kelly (1875) actually was the father of baby Arthur, but all the information Super Searchers have uncovered for me strongly suggest he was.
I am confident that Arthur Slattery became James Kelly, my short lived grandfather. He survived WWI as a machine gunner only to die age 30 from TB, perhaps a legacy of his patriotism.
Many thanks once again to all who have given freely of time & effort in my search for granddad Kelly.
jj 010516
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It should have been easy.
The medals gave me all the information I needed to start my search.
James Kelly Private 15846 Notts & Derby Reg.
James Kelly Sergeant 13010 Machine Gun Corps.
He married Nellie Richardson in Mansfield Register Office, January 5 1916.
He died from TB, February 8 1927. Address 12 Council Houses, South Hiendley.
He was buried in Felkirk Church grave yard, a mile from where I spent my first 21 years, and I didn't know.
Grandmother never spoke about him. No one ever asked. A tacitly off limits subject.
In my research I found about 1700 potential James Kellys fitting his WWI record, marriage & death. This was an impossible task, so difficult a genealogist friend declined to help! Then a friend told me about the website that helped her find her grannie. Astonishingly, Jeff in Australia was searching the same website for his wife's grandma at the same time as I was looking for my granddad.
At her marriage, March 27 1916, Catherine Kelly's address, 3 Bells Yard, Mansfield, was the same as James' when he married Nellie. Their fathers had the same details, James Kelly (b1875), miner, Private KOYLI Reg. No mother was mentioned. James & Catherine were apparently siblings.
Jeff found their mother's name, Ellen Slattery, born in Whitwick, Leicestershire, in 1874, through a census search. In 1901 James & Ellen with their 3 children were in Glass Houghton, Yorkshire.
James 4, born in Whitwick -1896/7.
Catherine 3, born in Mexborough, Yorkshire 1898.
Thomas 10 months, born in Whitwick, 1900.
There is no record of the birth of James Kelly (1896/7) despite there being a hefty £2 fine for not registering.
I returned to the website, the Leicestershire forum.
Still no James Kelly even though I now knew where & approximately when he was born.
I learned that Ellen had given birth to a baby boy, Arthur Slattery, in the Ashby de la Zouch Union Workhouse in 1896. There is no further record of this child. He did not grow up, did not marry, did not die. He simply disappeared. The evidence is compelling that Arthur Slattery became James Kelly after Ellen and James married on March 8 1897, in Whitwick Register Office.
I cannot be certain that James Kelly was Arthur's father, but what Jeff & I have learned strongly supports this. Ellen & James were the same age, lived in the same street, attended the same school, got married and in the 1901 census had a 4 year old son. Ellen's husband had raised the child and replaced his birth name, Arthur Slattery, with James Kelly, surely acknowledging paternity.
Mother told me her father's name was James Arthur, but on all General Register Office records he was James Kelly, excepting birth where he was registered as Arthur Slattery.
I have been told that after her husband died, grandmother and her 3 young children had to live in a caravan. I don't know for how long, but presumably they were evicted when James died.
Maybe this is why he was never spoken about.
Maybe this is why grandmother visited her daughter Teresa's grave & not that of her husband, despite them sharing the same plot.
These are things I'll never know, but today, May 22, I can say “Happy Birthday, Granddad” for the first time, 120 years after he was born.
Addendum:
Baby Arthur Slattery was baptised in the Holy Cross Roman Catholic Church, Whitwick, as were Catherine, Thomas and Francis, who was born in Whitwick in 1899 and died before the 1901 census.
Uncle Jim (James Arthur Kelly) had told his children that he was RC and had been excommunicated. I have been unable to find any record of RC baptism in Mansfield where he was born or for his sisters, Mary Teresa (1920 -1937) and Doreen Winifred (1924 – 2012) both born in South Hiendley.
John Kelly was born in Cacon, County Mayo in 1839, died Cannock, Staffs, January 1915 (Gt gt grandfather)
Ellen Wall, his wife, was born in Kiltimagh, County Mayo, in 1841. Died January 1912 in Lichfield, Staffs.
They married in Tamworth, Staffordshire, July 1859.
James Kelly, 9th of 10 children, was born in Whitwick 1875. Died Nottingham 1951. (Gt grandfather)
Ellen Slattery, his wife, was born in Whitwick, 1874, died Rotherham 1955.
Ellen Slattery's grandfather, John, was born in County Clare, 1820, her father Michael, born Staffordshire, 1870.
But the strangest part of this search was an eerie coincidence. Something which could not have been anticipated or planned given our limited knowledge 2 years ago. Mother joined her sister and father
May 22 2014,
the 118th anniversary of his birth.
requiescat in pace
HAPPY BIRTHDAY, GRANDDAD.
With grateful thanks to all who gave so freely of their time, knowledge and patience. I cannot name you individually, but you know who you are.
jj 220516