RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: groom on Sunday 03 April 16 17:43 BST (UK)
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Week 4 all ready - are we all still sticking with it, even though it perhaps hasn't been quiet what we expected? I've picked up a few ideas and new resources, but to be honest I've probably learnt more from being on here and watching how fellow RCers go about solving a problem and what resources they use.
I'm hoping this week might be different as I know very little about DNA.
Week 4:
Genealogical Proof and DNA Testing
Genealogists need to be sure they have found the ‘right’ person and we will cover some of the techniques used to decide on the best match. Also important is how to know when you’ve done enough research to come to a reasonable decision on a match. We’ll also introduce the use of DNA testing in genealogical research. Topics to be covered are:
The principles of the Genealogical Proof Standard
How to establish proof
How to evaluate evidence
An introduction to genetic genealogy with some case studies on using it to break down brick walls.
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I'm particularly looking forward to this part of the Course, as I know very little about DNA.
I'm hoping to be enlightened! (Particularly as it might be the best way of trying to pin down my elusive paternal Grandfather).
Romilly.
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I'm very skeptical about DNA! ;D
The reference databases are really very small, and it's mainly US-based?
I can't see how it would help my research at all?
But it might prove useful in the future - give it about 20 years to mature, I reckon.
IMHO it's a triumph of Marketing over expectation.
Just as well I have a busy week, and might not be able to do much.
There's a small matter of running the Isle of Man Beer & Cider Festival! ;D ;D
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There's a small matter of running the Isle of Man Beer & Cider Festival! ;D ;D
On the contrary, running something as important as a Beer and Cider Festival is no small matter. It is a great responsibility that has to be approached in the right manner and with the seriousness that such an auspicious occasion deserves (wish I could be there) ;) ;D ;D ;D
I have to agree with groom, you can learn an awful lot watching Rootschatters solve a problem. I have also found some new resources.
But with that said I am looking forward to learning more about DNA it is something I have not considered, but am interested in the subject and how it works in the context of genealogy.
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I have persuaded a male cousin on my Father's side to have one of the Ancestry DNA tests, and am very curious to see what it turns up.
I was under the impression that the Y chromosome was only passed down the male line, but have recently read more about Autosomal DNA testing. Shelley on here has written about it in detail.
Romilly.
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There's a small matter of running the Isle of Man Beer & Cider Festival! ;D ;D
On the contrary, running something as important as a Beer and Cider Festival is no small matter. It is a great responsibility that has to be approached in the right manner and with the seriousness that such an auspicious occasion deserves (wish I could be there) ;) ;D ;D ;D
Just 200 beers this year, and 41 ciders and 11 perries!
I run the Cider, Perry & Fruit Wine bar. ;D
So, it's my responsibility to sample all the ciders & perries! Quality control! ;D
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There's a small matter of running the Isle of Man Beer & Cider Festival! ;D ;D
On the contrary, running something as important as a Beer and Cider Festival is no small matter. It is a great responsibility that has to be approached in the right manner and with the seriousness that such an auspicious occasion deserves (wish I could be there) ;) ;D ;D ;D
Just 200 beers this year, and 41 ciders and 11 perries!
I run the Cider, Perry & Fruit Wine bar. ;D
So, it's my responsibility to sample all the ciders & perries! Quality control! ;D
And I am sure you will do an admiral job...... ;) ;D
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I am enjoying the course, have been researching for a lot of years, but I am learning of new websites and looking forward to learning about DNA. Trying to decided if I should have my DNA done. Also my husband as well.
All ready to start week 4
cheers
Anne
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Oh it's week 4 already and I've already lapsed and not completed week 3! :P I haven't learned a great deal so far, although have got one or two hints and tips from the course and from a few of the comments that I've read from followers/most liked (can't cope with ploughing through the thousands of other comments, life's too short!)
Promise I'll try harder this week ;D
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From the course syllabus looks to be much more about proof with DNA added on at the end
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DNA - don't know how that would work with a long line of ag labs and chimney sweeps! Its going to be an interesting week.
Linda
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DNA is such a complex and confusing (for me :P) topic that I doubt the course will be able to scratch the surface.
Anyone who is interested will find lots of discussions and links on the DNA board - there are some very knowledgeable people who frequent the board, so likely that you will get more from reading that than you will do on the course.
I am interested in DNA and have taken a "Family Finder" test, also organised YDNA tests for father and OH - have found no connections for any of us.
I can see a benefit in DNA tests to try to find a link between two people who are not sure if they have a common ancestor. I assume this is what will be touched upon in the course.
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Well I've just finished week 4 and I felt DNA was only touched on lightly in the later sections of the course and although it explained things it wasn't anywhere near as in depth a part of this weeks course as I'd hoped it might be. I would definitely have to do a lot more research into it before making a decision on whether it would be useful for me to test. Having said that I now understand it a little which is progress so I have learned something useful from this week ;D
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Are you planning to look at the course again during the week, Magiccat? I find that I often get more advice and ideas from comments posted by other students, many of whom won't have started the week yet.
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I must say that more than 50% of the knowledge and satisfaction I gain from FL courses is by interacting with others during the course of each week, helping them, learning from them, enjoying their triumphs, commiserating with their brick walls and receiving fascinating links to FH websites and databases previously unknown to me. Without that interaction you might just as well sit down and read a book.
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At last there is a mention of lateral thinking.
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I must say that more than 50% of the knowledge and satisfaction I gain from FL courses is by interacting with others during the course of each week, helping them, learning from them, enjoying their triumphs, commiserating with their brick walls and receiving fascinating links to FH websites and databases previously unknown to me. Without that interaction you might just as well sit down and read a book.
I find that Rootschat also fulfills all of those criteria ;D ;D
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Well I've just finished week 4 and I felt DNA was only touched on lightly in the later sections of the course and although it explained things it wasn't anywhere near as in depth a part of this weeks course as I'd hoped it might be. I would definitely have to do a lot more research into it before making a decision on whether it would be useful for me to test. Having said that I now understand it a little which is progress so I have learned something useful from this week ;D
Already! I'm impressed. 8)
I'm feeling that this course has been too ambitious in many ways, trying to appeal to beginners and improvers from all over the world, and in consequence has really only scratched the surface, in some cases leading to assumptions that are frankly incorrect. We're half way through and many of us more experienced researchers are quite frustrated. I think perhaps there should have been several courses suitable for different levels of previous knowledge.
I'm annoyed by Tahitia's pronunciation of "geneAlogy" as "geneOlogy", and tickled by the Scottish lady's reference to "Asterix" (wasn't he an ancient Gaul and a cartoon character?) for "asterisk", even though I thought her wild card information was helpful.
Well, here goes with week 4. (I still think DNA testing is a marketing exercise. >:()
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I'm annoyed by Tahitia's pronunciation of "geneAlogy" as "geneOlogy",
So am I, trouble is that I find I am listening for it now! I expect it from someone who has never looked at Family History, but not from someone who lectures on it.
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I'm annoyed by Tahitia's pronunciation of "geneAlogy" as "geneOlogy",
So am I, trouble is that I find I am listening for it now! I expect it from someone who has never looked at Family History, but not from someone who lectures on it.
Groom It worries me that she lectures on a Post Grad. course.
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That might be the right way to pronounce it after all. :P
(I've got my tin hat on now)
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I'm here...although I have to say I having done week three yet. My head is still spinning from the Website course last week.
I will try to catch up quickly.
I too am not sure about the DNA thing but am hoping the "making sure you have right person" bit is good as I think that is one if the most important skills.
I hope they don't bang on about mis-spelt names all week again though :)
Milly
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I'm annoyed by Tahitia's pronunciation of "geneAlogy" as "geneOlogy",
So am I, trouble is that I find I am listening for it now! I expect it from someone who has never looked at Family History, but not from someone who lectures on it.
This made me smile Jan as it annoys me when people pronounce it GeneAlogy:
http://dictionary.cambridge.org/pronunciation/english/genealogy
Carol
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Has anyone looked at the three case studies in 4.12 and the discussion / comments about them that follows? I'm even more confused now about what DNA tests can and can't do.
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Here's a topic on how to pronounce genealogy: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=24818.54
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Here's a topic on how to pronounce genealogy: http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=24818.54
Love the third option in that poll
"I mumble it becasue I don't know" ;D ;D ;D
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I thought there were some useful items to download at section 4.4.
It would appear to me that the word genealogy is being privileged over the term family history as this area of study seeks to establish itself as a 'profession'. At every opportunity I shall be using the term family history.
DNA is such a complex and confusing (for me :P) topic that I doubt the course will be able to scratch the surface.
I find it very very confusing and if anyone can answer the question I posted here I'd be really grateful 'cos' it's doing my head in!
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/genealogy/1/steps/63777/comments?page=1#comment_11665098
Jen
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Only part way through, too much going on here today, none of the men had call outs today so they are hanging around and causing a disturbance >:( ::) ;D Just got to the part mentioned in Jennywrens post but had to give up.... :-\
(shouldn't complain too much though, over the weekend IT geek son presented me with my own pc, no more sharing ;D ;D ;D)
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I understood the little video with the family tree and the XY chromosome business, but then they lost me completely with the next video (of the male prof reading from his notes) ???
Also, perhaps I missed it in the science "stuff" that flew way over my head, but no mention of using the X chromosome to trace ancestors? So, why did Chris' brother do the DNA test not her? See, I'm definitely not getting this DNA malarkey, am I? ???
STG
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I understood the little video with the family tree and the XY chromosome business, but then they lost me completely with the next video (of the male prof reading from his notes) ???
Also, perhaps I missed it in the science "stuff" that flew way over my head, but no mention of using the X chromosome to trace ancestors? So, why did Chris' brother do the DNA test not her? See, I'm definitely not getting this DNA malarkey, am I? ???
STG
I may be wrong here... but Y is the Male line and X is the female line, I think. And so if you're trying to find a link on the male side, you need a male to take the DNA test. (A female test would just show the X result, - Maternal line).
Romilly.
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Haven't even looked at this week yet as I'm on a roll with the German side of my family as I've just discovered more information in the Württemberg, Germany, Lutheran Baptisms, Marriages, and Burials, 1500–1985. I found my great great grandfather and his baptism gives his father and his mother with her maiden name! I found 8 siblings all to the same parents. Then I found their marriage which again gives the names of both parents!
I'm now checking out a tree that follows a line back and is well sourced. Might be the break through I've been looking for. ;D
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Groom
If you want any help with the German I'd be happy to oblige. :)
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I may be wrong here... but Y is the Male line and X is the female line, I think. And so if you're trying to find a link on the male side, you need a male to take the DNA test. (A female test would just show the X result, - Maternal line).
Romilly.
Well yes, but ... did they actually say that/spell it out? If so, I apologise, but had obviously mentally switched off because it was making my brain hurt and didn't hear that bit.
In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter though. It was just one more week of a course I'm not enjoying/getting anything much from. Am only sticking with it because I'm stubborn ;)
STG
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Groom
If you want any help with the German I'd be happy to oblige. :)
Thank you very much, I may well take you up on that offer.
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I may be wrong here... but Y is the Male line and X is the female line, I think. And so if you're trying to find a link on the male side, you need a male to take the DNA test. (A female test would just show the X result, - Maternal line).
Romilly.
Well yes, but ... did they actually say that/spell it out? If so, I apologise, but had obviously mentally switched off because it was making my brain hurt and didn't hear that bit.
In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't really matter though. It was just one more week of a course I'm not enjoying/getting anything much from. Am only sticking with it because I'm stubborn ;)
STG
I do agree STG... I was hoping to learn something new from this Course. I haven't so far, but you never know...(!)
Romilly ???
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I'm annoyed by Tahitia's pronunciation of "geneAlogy" as "geneOlogy", and tickled by the Scottish lady's reference to "Asterix" (wasn't he an ancient Gaul and a cartoon character?) for "asterisk", even though I thought her wild card information was helpful
GeneOlogy - "a" as in "swap". Isn't that just the usual Eng. to American vowel shift?
As for Asterix, that amused me too. "-iks" instead of "-isk" is akin to the way many Scots say "pattren" rather than "pattern", a habit that is more common in some areas than others. I'm not sure if it happens elsewhere or is purely a Scottish aberration!
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Can I just say I have been totally underwhelmed with responses to my question concerning the DNA chart. Despite a second posting along the same lines nobody has come to my aid although many people claim to understand the topic and indeed have invested in DNA testing.
Jen
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Can I just say I have been totally underwhelmed with responses to my question concerning the DNA chart. Despite a second posting along the same lines nobody has come to my aid although many people claim to understand the topic and indeed have invested in DNA testing.
Jen
I've been hoping someone would reply to you, Jen, because I don't understand it either!
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Can I just say I have been totally underwhelmed with responses to my question concerning the DNA chart. Despite a second posting along the same lines nobody has come to my aid although many people claim to understand the topic and indeed have invested in DNA testing.
Jen
Can you point us to it, pls? (i.e. which section etc)
STG
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Sorry STG it was a few replies back....this should take you to my comment.
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/genealogy/1/steps/63777/comments?page=3#comment_11665098
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Oh, completely beyond me, I'm afraid.
However, in response to my own comment about not really getting any of it, someone sent me this link, which, so far I am understanding (well, I think I am anyway).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9RyoEVDG7o
Might it help with your query too?
STG
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Hi Jen,
I've not got to the DNA part of the course yet. But looked into it a few years ago and my Dad agreed to give a sample. I was also blinded by science trying to understand it all (and still don't, if I'm honest) But I've tried to understand a small bitesized chunk with regard to the test he had done.
We did the male test, and I understand it is better to get the eldest male relative to give the sample in order for less 'mutations' of the dna. So my father's dna will be the same as his father, as his father, as his father etc. with only perhaps slight variation. This is why I opted for the male DNA test. I also, chose to do this now (as Dad is quite elderly) as I hope to understand more in the future and hope that the tests improve etc. over the years. At least this way I have a reference point in years to come. Our origins are Irish and I hope that having a dna test will assist alongside traditional sources to advance my paternal line research.
CD
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I haven't got to that bit yet, so I'll watch that later. I'm afraid at the moment I am sceptical, especially as Ancestry keep sending me emails about having a DNA test done. I do wonder if it is people jumping on the band wagon.
It would be interesting to know just what percentage of people who have a test carried out a) understand the results and b) find anything they can actually use.
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Interestingly, Dad did the dna test years ago. I'm usually sent an email from the company when there is a match (!) however I usually ignore any that are 12 or 25 marker matches as these are not specific enough (so too, too many generations distant). So the higher the number of marker matches the better...however there are precious few of those type of matches that come through. And...we've never ever been contacted by anyone...
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Just got to the DNA part and must admit that I also found it a bit bewildering and hard to grasp. The Youtube video shed a little more light..... :-\
I haven't got to that bit yet, so I'll watch that later. I'm afraid at the moment I am sceptical, especially as Ancestry keep sending me emails about having a DNA test done. I do wonder if it is people jumping on the band wagon.
It would be interesting to know just what percentage of people who have a test carried out a) understand the results and b) find anything they can actually use.
Those thoughts also crossed my mind. And what sort of results would you get if you look at some families in the 1800's whose maiden names were the same as their married ones, especially those that were sent to the colonies in the early days when the availability of marriageable folk was somewhat limited. Second cousins marrying perhaps, or families with the same surname having travelled in different settler parties meeting up could turn into a mine field :-\ ;D
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Thanks STG I watched the utube video and I now understand why the probability increases as you go back in time - it's like your family tree turned upside down!
Jen
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I haven't got as far as the DNA part yet either (I am lagging behind this week), but I did plough through to the comments to find your question Jen. Sorry I can't help with an answer though.
There is something up with the settings on my PC so I can't get any audio at all with these tutorials. I've had to rely solely on the transcripts. I noted that some people said that the audio shows some examples whereas the transcripts don't?
Jen, I think you should start a thread on the rootschat DNA board - I wonder if a link to the course would be possible. Someone on rootschat will be able to help you I'm sure.
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Jen, I think you should start a thread on the rootschat DNA board - I wonder if a link to the course would be possible. Someone on rootschat will be able to help you I'm sure.
I don't think that anyone who isn't registered on the course would be able to see it. Maybe though, if Jen gets an answer from RC, she could ask whether they mind her posting it on Future Learn, thus giving RC another plug. ;D ;D
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Futurelearn is now littered with comments that say..."Thanks to STG on Rootschat I now have my answer....then provide the utube URL"
I'm now officially bored with DNA :)
I have also posted this on Rootschat as I get more and more jumpy about these kind of DNA claims...going to lie down in a darkened room.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=745625.msg5928067#msg5928067
Jen
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Futurelearn is now littered with comments that say..."Thanks to STG on Rootschat I now have my answer....then provide the utube URL"
So, I'm famous! Yay ;D ;D ;D
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Just noticed the following message on the replies tab " We'll be removing the replies tab soon replacing it with something very exciting". It does not say what this will entail but if it proves to be a response to the comments about the difficulty of navigating a way through the number of comments good on them.
William
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That would be a huge improvement wouldn't it?
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Only if it <i>is</i> an improvement ;D
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Well, I've finally finished week 3, after a busy week here at home being labourer to MrQ as he tackles some fairly ambitious diy, plus driving halfway down the country to look at a car that we didn't get! ??? Now for week 4, and all the DNA stuff to, er, look forward to? :P
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I finished week 4 last night and found it had a little more substance to it than previous weeks.
I am interested in DNA testing for family history research but find the whole subject utterly confusing and can barely begin to comprehend it, but I felt like an expert reading some of the comments. There was a lot of repetition in the comments and questions (and I only generally read the first 'page' of comments), so for those who know nothing about the subject even this most basic introduction obviously was not clear enough for beginners to grasp.
The example given of how X and Y chromosomes were passed down to sons and daughters, (where they used names John, Hugh or whatever) I found unnecessarily complicated - it was confusing me and I already have a slight understanding of who inherits what. I felt like I was taking a different course when reading the comments which stated how clear the explanation was. Huh?
Regarding the quiz - it was pretty ridiculous - what is the point of including so many obviously incorrect answers? And there was one question which I actually found quite difficult and got it wrong twice.
I don't know - it's probably just me .... ;) ;D
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Regarding the quiz - it was pretty ridiculous - what is the point of including so many obviously incorrect answers? And there was one question which I actually found quite difficult and got it wrong twice.
I don't know - it's probably just me .... ;) ;D
I bet it was the same question where where I got the answer wrong 4 times before I finally figured it out ;) ......and that was only because there was just one choice left :P
sami
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Regarding the quiz - it was pretty ridiculous - what is the point of including so many obviously incorrect answers? And there was one question which I actually found quite difficult and got it wrong twice.
I don't know - it's probably just me .... ;) ;D
I bet it was the same question where where I got the answer wrong 4 times before I finally figured it out ;) ......and that was only because there was just one choice left :P
sami
;D Probably! I think it was a trick question. (and I think all the answers were more or less correct anyway)
I'm happy to have challenging questions, but it seemed a bit odd coming after such obvious silly ones.
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I've finished Week 4 as well now. The DNA section has been the most interesting part of the Course for me so far, but I'm still unconvinced that it's worth taking a test if your Ancestry is all UK based.
I agree that the Quizzes are insultingly easy. Talk about dumbing down...(!)
Romilly :)
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I'd not do a course because I can get as far as possible with the free sites. To prove anything costs money - and that's out of the question for me.
There's no point, to me, in learning that you need to get XYZ .... and if you spend £££ on this membership and that membership then you get more records .... and if you travel 300 miles and stay a week in a hotel you can paw through XYZ resources in the archives.
It's an expensive hobby that draws you in .... just one more cert .... if I only had that cert .... that membership gives me so much more .... just a 3-day break in XYZ town with hotels/transport/dinners .....
And with every step, every discovery, you simply add more research, another 10 people and potentially another 100 bits of expensive evidence and proof to add :)
:)
So, doing a course is the thin end of the wedge.
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Surely though the quizzes are just that, put in there as a bit of fun, they don't count at all? It's a pity they haven't included tests, which do count and are shown at the end of the course. As you lose points for each try you have at the answer, it might stop some people whizzing through each week as, unless they knew everything, they'd have to read and watch all the sections.
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I've just done 7 steps so far in week 4, been a busy week ... but checking out the comments here helps too, will look at that youtube link before I progress further, thank you STG :)
ps ... I received a reply to a comment from week 2 today, so others are still working through steps in own time :)
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Watched the You Tube video this morning, Mare and have to say I thought it was very good. My thanks too to STG for the heads up.
William
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Watched the You Tube video this morning, Mare and have to say I thought it was very good. My thanks too to STG for the heads up.
William
Thanks peeps! ;D
Glad it's useful to others. I'm quite bright (no, really ;) ) but was in such a fug after the Strathclyde one, it was a relief to find something that made sense to me!
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There is something amiss with the sound on my PC due to other users messing about with speakers I think, so I am unable to listen to any of the lectures nor could I hear the YouTube video posted by STG.
I did watch some of it with subtitles but they spoiled my viewing pleasure.
I just wanted to let you know, in case you weren't aware, that Debbie Kennett is a member of rootschat and author of several books on DNA I believe. She's really helpful and has a knack of being able to explain this complex subject in a way that even I can understand (I think ;)).
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Quick question, do all the videos have sub titles or have I got something switched on on my laptop? I'm finding it quite annoying as often the subtitles cover part of a document that is being shown.
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I am not sure Groom (I seldom watch YouTube videos), but I think I clicked on a little icon on the bottom right of the YouTube screen which made the subtitles appear. Maybe you need to "unselect" yours? :-\ They are pretty dreadful and look like they have been converted to subtitles by a robot.
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I also disabled the subtitle on the videos, they are distracting.... ::) ;D
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Thanks, that worked. Pty there isn't one I can click on to stop her waving her hands about. ;D ;D
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Pty there isn't one I can click on to stop her waving her hands about. ;D ;D
Where is that like button ;D ;D ;D
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Pty there isn't one I can click on to stop her waving her hands about. ;D ;D
Where is that like button ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D
and the rolly one ( ROFL)
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My thanks also to STG for the youtube link - cleared up a couple of questions I had from the FL one :)
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My thanks also to STG for the youtube link - cleared up a couple of questions I had from the FL one :)
Thanks from me also. It was well worth watching :)
sami
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Many Thanks STG for this Link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9RyoEVDG7o
I now feel that I know much more about DNA! :)
Still pondering whether to have one or not... The Family Tree one seems to be more UK based than the others... Is that right?
Romilly.
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I also have to echo thanks to STG for pointing out Debbie Kennett's UTube presentation. I was totally confused by DNA and genetic genealogy, but her clear explanation really cleared things up for me. Now I'm excited to try it! However, it does seem like a huge outlay for a rather uncertain return. Anyway, I'm enjoying this week a lot more than the previous ones.
Romilly - Yes, they did say that Family Tree DNA had the most UK-based members so far.
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Oh dear, today's news shows what a DNA test can bring to light!
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Oh dear, today's news shows what a DNA test can bring to light!
I was just thinking the same thing!
I assume he must have had the 'Y' DNA test.
Romilly.
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Presumably as it just tested a swab from him against hair follicles from his father's hair brush.
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See how much you've learnt!
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I think a Paternity DNA test is rather different from a Genealogical DNA test?
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I don't really see why it would be any different. All you need is a swab from "putative" father and baby, and if the markers match - Bingo!
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New thread for week 5 here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=746144.0
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Are you planning to look at the course again during the week, Magiccat? I find that I often get more advice and ideas from comments posted by other students, many of whom won't have started the week yet.
Yes I will go back over it later, it was a really slow night here so i just cracked on with the course