RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Beeonthebay on Wednesday 30 March 16 20:30 BST (UK)
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So here I am on holiday in North Devon and the past few days visited 3 graveyards as you do.......... ::)
The first attached to a church has very old graves, then one a bit further down the road has them a bit newer but more like a field, no church, and today I saw what looks like a council gated cemetery with very much newer graves, so I'm guessing here it's a progression as the church graveyard got full up and so on.
I was taking some photo's and planned to transcribe them and upload the photo onto Find A Grave when I get around to it. I've found 2 or 3 on that site myself which have proved very useful especially one in the USA. So time to pay it forward a little.
But when I was walking around the newish cemetery I felt very intrusive and didn't take any photo's as it just felt wrong.
Is there a point at which we shouldn't take photo's, transcribe and upload them onto a public site? I mean like a cut off year of say 50 years ago?
What do you think?
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I see and understand your point.
From my knowledge of some of my mothers sisters, I think one of those sisters just preferred to totally obliterate from her mind the deceased members of her family. I am not sure why, but she even used the euphemism RIP to mean a deceased person.
If that is any help to you.
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I'm sure I read somewhere on another 'find a grave type' website that they only show graves which are more than 30years old.
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My Mums grave is on one of these sites, she died in 2009 :'(
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Ask the church or local authority who maintains the cemetery before you do.
This isn't the first news item of this type I've seen
http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regional-affairs/jewellery-quarter-research-trust-banned-10808767
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Ask the church or local authority who maintains the cemetery before you do.
This isn't the first news item of this type I've seen
http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regional-affairs/jewellery-quarter-research-trust-banned-10808767
I'm not really bothered enough to do that, I was just asking a general question as it kind of popped into my head as a moral dilemma.
Re the article, I think that's ridiculous. If every churchyard or cemetery was like this there would be no MI's or online databases to help us with our family history.
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I'm sure I read somewhere on another 'find a grave type' website that they only show graves which are more than 30years old.
Thank you I'll look into it.
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My Mums grave is on one of these sites, she died in 2009 :'(
I thought it wasn't the right thing to do, so I didn't. Sorry if this subject has upset you :(
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Are you still in the area, BotB? I might have a request or two if it is in your area, if that is ok.
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Are you still in the area, BotB? I might have a request or two if it is in your area, if that is ok.
Only for 1 more day and I have no car, I'm on a coach trip lol.
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Bugger. (Am I allowed to say that?)
Are you going to any more graveyards?
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Apart from obviously not intruding when a funeral is taking place and the most recent burials I would suggest there is no cut off point.
By the time there is a headstone erected, normally one year after the burial, the grass will have re-grown etc.
I have had photos & transcriptions of tombstones online for many years and in that time have never received any complaint about a grave being online.
I have received a number of complaints that I have not included graves but these have been graves of people buried after I had visited the graveyard or cemetery.
On the other side of the equation I have received hundreds if not thousands of letters & emails thanking me for giving relatives, including children and siblings the opportunity of seeing their loved ones grave.
One of the most heart rendering letter I received was from a disabled child who could not visit her mother’s grave (even though she lived in the same town) due to her mobility problems.
My site gave her the opportunity to virtually visit her mother's grave whenever she wanted or needed to.
If that one letter had been the only one I had received I would have been happy to carry on uploading images of graves but in addition I received many emails from people across the world that would never have the chance to visit their loved ones graves who find comfort in being able to visit online.
Cheers
Guy
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Bugger. (Am I allowed to say that?)
Are you going to any more graveyards?
Awww sorry Pine. Mind you how do you know which one I have been to? ;)
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Apart from obviously not intruding when a funeral is taking place and the most recent burials I would suggest there is no cut off point.
By the time there is a headstone erected, normally one year after the burial, the grass will have re-grown etc.
I have had photos & transcriptions of tombstones online for many years and in that time have never received any complaint about a grave being online.
I have received a number of complaints that I have not included graves but these have been graves of people buried after I had visited the graveyard or cemetery.
On the other side of the equation I have received hundreds if not thousands of letters & emails thanking me for giving relatives, including children and siblings the opportunity of seeing their loved ones grave.
One of the most heart rendering letter I received was from a disabled child who could not visit her mother’s grave (even though she lived in the same town) due to her mobility problems.
My site gave her the opportunity to virtually visit her mother's grave whenever she wanted or needed to.
If that one letter had been the only one I had received I would have been happy to carry on uploading images of graves but in addition I received many emails from people across the world that would never have the chance to visit their loved ones graves who find comfort in being able to visit online.
Cheers
Guy
Thank you Guy, that is a very interesting perspective.
I think what made this cemetery seem so NEW was it was full of flower vases and planted flowers on graves and those little children's windmills and jars with candles in and lots of notes and little stones on the graves with names on (is that a local or a new tradition?) but that might because we've recently had Mother's Day and Easter.
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Tell me Marwood or East Down and I'll get excited.
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Tell me Marwood or East Down and I'll get excited.
Never heard of them sorry :( It's actually a very pretty place called Lynton.
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Tell me Marwood or East Down and I'll get excited.
Never heard of them sorry :( It's actually a very pretty place called Lynton.
Lovely area, hope you are enjoying it ;D
Pinefamily our UK coach tours tend to take in the coastal areas and places of interest. Those villages are probably a bit too remote ;) Roads in those areas tend to be very narrow and unsuitable for coaches
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Ask the church or local authority who maintains the cemetery before you do.
This isn't the first news item of this type I've seen
http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regional-affairs/jewellery-quarter-research-trust-banned-10808767
Update from the Trust's website on their frontpage - http://www.jqrt.org/index.html - it seems the negative publicity earlier this year has made the Council officers change their mind. ;D
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Thank you Guy, that is a very interesting perspective.
I think what made this cemetery seem so NEW was it was full of flower vases and planted flowers on graves and those little children's windmills and jars with candles in and lots of notes and little stones on the graves with names on (is that a local or a new tradition?) but that might because we've recently had Mother's Day and Easter.
I am not sure whether you mean little headstones or little stones or pebbles on the graves.
Modern gravestones are in most cases smaller than the older graves stones.
However if you mean small stones or pebbles on the graves themselves there is a Jewish tradition of leaving a pebble on the grave when one visits as a sign of respect and to show that the grave has been recently visited.
There are also a number of other explanations for this Jewish custom.
European cultures would build cairns of stones above a grave, there was a superstition the souls of the dead my return and cause trouble for the living and the stones would keep them in the grave. There was also the practical reason to stop animals digging up the corpse.
Cheers
Guy
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It's large pebbles that people have written their names on, this is only in the newer cemetery not in the old graveyards.
Perhaps somebody started it here and others followed suit? I don't recall any of the graves seeming Jewish in any way. I might have time before I leave to go back and take a photo of these stones, my curiousity has now got the better of me. ::)
p.s. This site must be American as it's flagging curiousity as being spelt wrongly but I am still hanging in there with my English spellings......
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Ask the church or local authority who maintains the cemetery before you do.
This isn't the first news item of this type I've seen
http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regional-affairs/jewellery-quarter-research-trust-banned-10808767
I'm not really bothered enough to do that, I was just asking a general question as it kind of popped into my head as a moral dilemma.
Re the article, I think that's ridiculous. If every churchyard or cemetery was like this there would be no MI's or online databases to help us with our family history.
So can I come into your garden and take photos without your permission?
It's not that far removed from what you are doing.
I'm sorry you think the article is ridiculous. You asked a question and I gave an answer.
As I previously mentioned that article was one of many
see 5th paragrpah here
https://beta.islington.gov.uk/birth-death-marriage-and-citizenship/cemeteries
see clause 35 here
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hd2/
see the bylaws here
http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/200032/deaths_funerals_and_cemeteries/5580/cemeteries_and_crematoria/4
paragraph 4 here
http://www2.rctcbc.gov.uk/en/relateddocuments/publications/bereavement/rulesandregulationsfull.pdf
Wandsworth do not allow photography without permission, there is a pdf of regulations here
http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/downloads/200032/funerals_and_cremations
and Bexley has a similar pdf here
http://www.bexley.gov.uk/search?q=cemetery+regulations&go=Go
I know that many people are really grateful for the work others do to put images online and get comfort from them being there.
I was just mentioning that, as a courtesy, you should check before you do take photos.
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If a headstone belongs to my family, or extended relations, I will take a photo when I am there.
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If a headstone belongs to my family, or extended relations, I will take a photo when I am there.
One of my family is buried in Port Elizabeth, South Africa. It is unlikely that I can ever visit in person.
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Likewise, Scouseboy. Being in Australia, it is unlikely I will be able to get photos of my ancestors in England, Scotland and Sweden. I wouldn't even know where to look for my Irish forebears. ::)
Edit: my ancestors' graves, I should have said....
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If a headstone belongs to my family, or extended relations, I will take a photo when I am there.
One of my family is buried in Port Elizabeth, South Africa. It is unlikely that I can ever visit in person.
ScouseBoy
Have you looked at the South African graves project? Many photographs of headstones in many cemeteries, including Port Elizabeth. Enter name on search page for all SA.
eggsa.org
Jebber
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The cemeteries mentioned in the article Dawn posted a link to, Keyhill and Warstone Lane Cemeteries, are both closed. Warstone closed in 1982 to new burials according to Wikipedia. I suspect this is why Birmingham City Council have now relented on the ban on photographing graves, albeit personally I think 1982 is a bit recent in my view for posting grave photographs online. But that is my personal view and I know others may not agree. It is unfortunately a bit of an emotive subject and rules do vary from authority to authority.
That said, I suspect many cemeteries now as a norm only sell 50 year leases on graves, with an option to extend for another 50 years at additional cost. That is definitely the case for Camberwell New as we've recently queries with Southwark Council what was likely to happen to my great grandparent's grave now that it is 75 years since the last internment. The grave was purchased on a 100 year lease but Boris Johnson's edict a few years ago means they can now reuse after 75 years from the last internment. In my great grandparent's case, that's 19 years earlier than the expiry of the lease. Southwark Council have confirmed they are reviewing the reuse of existing graves outside of this timespan. Interestingly, my 3xGreat Grandparents grave in Manor Park Cemetery, the last internment being in 1910, does still exist, or did in 2014, but that's obviously a different cemetery. In the case of 50 year leases, if the graves aren't photographed in that time period, they will obviously be lost to posterity after their reuse. Monumental Inscriptions exist for some graves now lost but a photograph is obviously a better memorial.
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Yes we have the leases here in Australia too.
I took advantage of an hour at one of our local cemeteries on Easter Monday, taking photos of various ancestors' headstones. The cemetery authority has a great search function on its website, which then gives you exact locations for the plots. Unfortunately, I had missed my paternal family's headstone; the lease had recently expired. :(
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If a headstone belongs to my family, or extended relations, I will take a photo when I am there.
One of my family is buried in Port Elizabeth, South Africa. It is unlikely that I can ever visit in person.
ScouseBoy
Have you looked at the South African graves project? Many photographs of headstones in many cemeteries, including Port Elizabeth. Enter name on search page for all SA.
eggsa.org
Jebber
Many thanks for that.
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I know that many people are really grateful for the work others do to put images online and get comfort from them being there.
I was just mentioning that, as a courtesy, you should check before you do take photos.
I agree that it is polite to ask permission before taking photographs in churchyards and private cemeteries, however I do have a problem with public bodies demanding that the public ask permission first.
In my mind there is a big difference between photographing something on private land and photographing something on public land.
The council does not own public cemeteries but is simply the caretaker of the land, in the same way as the government does not own the UK.
The public own the land and the government or council simply look after it on our behalf, in much the same way as a gardener would look after a private garden.
I would ask permission to photograph in a churchyard or private cemetery but would happily take photos in a public cemetery no matter what the bylaws stated.
Why because as a member of the public I would give myself the required permission to photograph in the cemetery that I part own.
Obviously I would not take photos if a funeral was taking place unless I was in a different part of the cemetery well away from the funeral.
Cheers
Guy
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I have to pose the rhetorical question," If the family didn't want their relatives' place of interrment known and seen, then why did they place a headstone there in the first place?".
alanmack
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Exactly! It seems to me that headstones are put there expressly in order to be seen by whoever passes by, and that photographing them and making them available to a wider public is simply an extension of that. You do not have to request permission to view them, so why should you need permission to photograph them? I don't see it as disrespectful, indeed I would regard it as a service.
Since I photographed the stones in a local graveyard a few years ago, a number of them have fallen or been so severely damaged by winter weather that the inscriptions can no longer be seen or read.
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I think anyone who photographs graves in a public graveyard and puts them online is doing a great service to relatives who live too far away to visit...I took photos of family headstones in St. John's Nfld and contributed them to the family history site and they were delighted. Not everyone can travel to far flung places to get a photo of a headstone of their ancestors. I have found some on the "Find a Grave" site and have felt privileged to have that made available for my research.
Carol
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Ask the church or local authority who maintains the cemetery before you do.
This isn't the first news item of this type I've seen
http://www.birminghampost.co.uk/news/regional-affairs/jewellery-quarter-research-trust-banned-10808767
I'm not really bothered enough to do that, I was just asking a general question as it kind of popped into my head as a moral dilemma.
Re the article, I think that's ridiculous. If every churchyard or cemetery was like this there would be no MI's or online databases to help us with our family history.
So can I come into your garden and take photos without your permission?
It's not that far removed from what you are doing.
I'm sorry you think the article is ridiculous. You asked a question and I gave an answer.
As I previously mentioned that article was one of many
see 5th paragrpah here
https://beta.islington.gov.uk/birth-death-marriage-and-citizenship/cemeteries
see clause 35 here
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hd2/
see the bylaws here
http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/200032/deaths_funerals_and_cemeteries/5580/cemeteries_and_crematoria/4
paragraph 4 here
http://www2.rctcbc.gov.uk/en/relateddocuments/publications/bereavement/rulesandregulationsfull.pdf
Wandsworth do not allow photography without permission, there is a pdf of regulations here
http://www.wandsworth.gov.uk/downloads/200032/funerals_and_cremations
and Bexley has a similar pdf here
http://www.bexley.gov.uk/search?q=cemetery+regulations&go=Go
I know that many people are really grateful for the work others do to put images online and get comfort from them being there.
I was just mentioning that, as a courtesy, you should check before you do take photos.
I don't know why you have taken such offence to my reply Dawn as it was not my intent to offend you or anybody else in any way and I apologise if that is the case.
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I've often taken photographs of gravestones in village churchyards when I've found ones of my ancestors. Most of them are at least 200 years old though. I do have a photograph of my maternal grandfather's and his eldest daughter's grave, with his youngest son aged about 20 I would guess, standing by the grave, so that must have been in the 1940s. My g.grandfather died in 1922, his eldest daughter in 1920. I imagine my maternal gran was buried in the same grave, although I've never been to see it and I was considered too young to go to her funeral - I was 81/2 at the time.
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I suppose it's not so much offence as the attitude "just because I can, I will" and as you stated "I'm not really bothered" to check.
I just wanted to suggest that people should check beforehand, and I very much doubt whether any cemetery with these regulations will refuse you taking 1 or 2 photos of family plots.
I just wonder whether the authorities may object if the cemetery is really old and they are trying to protect flora and fauna who now inhabit these areas as they become nature reserves?
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I suppose it's not so much offence as the attitude "just because I can, I will" and as you stated "I'm not really bothered" to check.
I just wanted to suggest that people should check beforehand, and I very much doubt whether any cemetery with these regulations will refuse you taking 1 or 2 photos of family plots.
I just wonder whether the authorities may object if the cemetery is really old and they are trying to protect flora and fauna who now inhabit these areas as they become nature reserves?
Many local authorities are uploading burial burial indexes to sites like findagrave and charging the public for access, preventing photography is a way to maximise the return made.
I think the regulations were initially to prevent the cemeteries being used as film sets but as with a lot of these regulations once in place the objective slips and before one knows it all photography is being banned.
Cheers
Guy
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Someone I know who frequently takes photos of gravestones / inscriptions is actually often being helpful, because she often clears away overgrowth, very carefully, clipping and removing the debris, just to disclose the inscription fully.
I know she does it in a quiet, reverent manner, even undergoing great contortions to avoid stepping on the gravespace itself, as she knows the thought of that offends many.
I'd love to find some gravestones attached to my lot, but I know there are hardly any. It'd not offend me.
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It is often the case when visiting small churchyards that the church is closed and there is no-one available to ask their permission.
It's a sign of the times that many small village churches are closed now when there are no services taking place.
Carol
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Just further on the pebbles. Its seen as a custom to place a pebble to let others know someone still visits. It has come down from the Jewish tradition
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01hda/
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I've taken photos in a Co Meath cemetery - some have been online for 4 years or so.
recently I went back, and the Rector said family graves only . .
(I took several new photos, but just used them for transcription, not to publish - it disappointed me because they came out brilliantly - such a shame. Especially as this graveyard is visibly deteriorating from visit to visit . . )
The website policy is that a photo will be removed if a close relative requests it.
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I've often taken photographs of gravestones in village churchyards when I've found ones of my ancestors. Most of them are at least 200 years old though. I do have a photograph of my maternal grandfather's and his eldest daughter's grave, with his youngest son aged about 20 I would guess, standing by the grave, so that must have been in the 1940s. My g.grandfather died in 1922, his eldest daughter in 1920. I imagine my maternal gran was buried in the same grave, although I've never been to see it and I was considered too young to go to her funeral - I was 81/2 at the time.
Just goes to show what memories can do for you. I've lots of photos of my uncle in his 20s and in my mind, one of them was of him at the grave. I've now found the photograph and it was taken in 1981 when he was 62 ::)