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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Inverness => Topic started by: K MacDonald on Saturday 26 March 16 16:10 GMT (UK)
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I'd much appreciate any comments regarding any MacDonalds that emigrated from Skye to London around 1800.
My Dad and his brothers and sisters always proudly said we came from the Isle of Skye. The trouble is, I'm struggling to find any paper trail that says it is so. I've tried the Old Parish Records via the Scotland's People site, but found zero for that period.
Are there any other MacDonalds out there with families that ended-up in London?
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Hi
There are probably lots but whether your MacDonalds did is hard to say and will take some research. Also knowing their christian names and birthyears.
You would have to work back from your father, his parents & grandparents etc etc until you catch up with the family in London.
Presumably your father and his siblings were all born in England so should know whether your grandfather was also born here
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Yes, have done all that, back to Henry Thomas Macdonald, who family legend says came from the Isle of Skye. He married in London on August 11, 1828 in St.James Church, Clerkenwell, and lived the rest of his life in London. But so far I have found nobody in Scotland that matches that name.
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There are no extant parish records for Portree that would verify a birth around 1800, unfortunately. What is, of course a matter of historical record is that there was mass emigration of MacDonalds from Skye (particularly from Sleat) in the late 18th century as the MacDonald landlords saw their land as more valuable than their tenants and were pretty ruthless at evicting those who offered no economic benefit.
Your family tradition is wholly plausible but I suspect that finding evidence top prove it might be impossible.
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He married in London on August 11, 1828 in St.James Church, Clerkenwell, and lived the rest of his life in London.
He married Eliza Ann Hurle
What was his birthyear?
Do you have him on any census which confirms his birthplace was Scotland?
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Baptisms for 2 children in London - Henry John Thomas in 1829 and William 1835
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Son Henry is not with family in 1851. He married Maria Frances Hurle (??relative) on 1.7.1855 at St Mary Islington
Strangely - both fathers were called Henry Thomas - Both Henry MacDonald's were printers and Henry Thomas Hurle was a surveyor
Henry T MacDonald is not shown as deceased on the marriage cert although that proves nothing
I can't find him in 1841/1851/1861
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There are no extant parish records for Portree that would verify a birth around 1800, unfortunately. What is, of course a matter of historical record is that there was mass emigration of MacDonalds from Skye (particularly from Sleat) in the late 18th century as the MacDonald landlords saw their land as more valuable than their tenants and were pretty ruthless at evicting those who offered no economic benefit.
Your family tradition is wholly plausible but I suspect that finding evidence top prove it might be impossible.
Thanks, that matches what I've found. The Portree and Sleat parish records have a limited date range
114. PORTREE
114/1 Births 1800-19, Marriages 1800-19
114/2 Births 1819-54, Marriages 1819-54
115. SLEAT
115/1 Births 1813-19, Marriages 1813-17
115/2 Births 1819-53, Marriages 1820-52
An Archive Assistant at the Skye and Lochalsh Archive Centre confirms that the date ranges for the other parishes are limited as well.
Bracadale (1802-1854); Duirinish (1817-1854); Kilmuir (1823-1854); Snizort (1823-1854) and Strath (1820-1854).
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Son Henry is not with family in 1851. He married Maria Frances Hurle (??relative) on 1.7.1855 at St Mary Islington
Strangely - both fathers were called Henry Thomas - Both Henry MacDonald's were printers and Henry Thomas Hurle was a surveyor
Henry T MacDonald is not shown as deceased on the marriage cert although that proves nothing
I can't find him in 1841/1851/1861
Yes, son Henry married a Hurle as well. That confused me for a long time until I realised son Henry had married a different Hurle who was (by then) a cousin.
Henry Thomas Hurle came from a notable line of Hurle people, with roots in Somerset and Wiltshire. His grandfather was one of the group that (re)formed the Ancient Order of Druids in 1781 - see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Order_of_Druids
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Hi,
Although history is not my strong point, I note the names Henry & Thomas are not typical Scottish names, certainly not in the Highlands.
A site which may be of interest.....
If you google "Uist & Barra wordpress" this site is very informative & may help you in your quest.
Your ancestors seem to have moved down South prior to the "clearances" & there were MacDonalds at sometime in or around London with connections with South/North Uist/Barra MacDonalds of Clanranald.
Annie
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I forgot to say, as mentioned by Carole, they census records for those years are what you need for clarification of a connection to the Highlands sadly.
Annie
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Hi,
Although history is not my strong point, I note the names Henry & Thomas are not typical Scottish names, certainly not in the Highlands.
A site which may be of interest.....
If you google "Uist & Barra wordpress" this site is very informative & may help you in your quest.
Your ancestors seem to have moved down South prior to the "clearances" & there were MacDonalds at sometime in or around London with connections with South/North Uist/Barra MacDonalds of Clanranald.
Annie
Hi Annie
Thanks for that. It does help.
https://westernisles.wordpress.com/uist/
I have to confess I woke up very early this morning; not just because we've just put the clocks forward to British Summer Time, but because I suddenly realised I might have been making a quite basic mistake with all my searches.
It's been a family tradition that we always spell our name "M-a-c small d". I remember my oldest Uncle testing me on that as a very small child c.1958, and just recently I found a long-lost cousin from another branch of MacDonalds in London who had the same drummed into her from her earliest years. It's so inground, I've been limiting all my searchs to "Macdonald". Doh.
You make a very good point that the names Henry & Thomas are not typical. I'm now wondering if that was a deliberate effort by my branch of the MacDonalds to Anglicise themselves, along with the way their name was spelt?
Perhaps I need to go back and start again, and include "McDonald"s in my search?
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Not much time just now but there are numerous variants such as McDonell/MacDonell etc.
Annie
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I wonder if this is the Henry John Macdonald I should have been looking for?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5XK-29N
Name Henry Thomas Mcdonald
Gender Male
Christening Date 20 Oct 1805
Christening Place SAINT ANNE SOHO,WESTMINSTER,LONDON,ENGLAND
Birth Date 29 Sep 1805
Father's Name John Mcdonald
Mother's Name Eleanor
But that pushes the legendry Scottish roots back another generation to John and Eleanor. From where?
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He married in London on August 11, 1828 in St.James Church, Clerkenwell, and lived the rest of his life in London.
He is absent from any census entry that I can find under either Mac or Mc. Have you found him?
Until you know whether he was born in England or Scotland your Scottish research is at a standstill.
If he was born in England - then you are looking for his fathers name and where his father was born
Henry must have been born around the very early 1800's to have married in 1828 - although it may have been a second marriage.
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He married in London on August 11, 1828 in St.James Church, Clerkenwell, and lived the rest of his life in London.
He is absent from any census entry that I can find under either Mac or Mc. Have you found him?
You are 100% correct to ask that question because I'm still confusing Henry Thomas Macdonald and his son Henry John Thomas Macdonald (more Doh!)
The son Henry John Thomas is the one I've found a fairly full paper trail for.
e.g.
Baptism: 21 Jun 1829 - Clerkenwell St James, England
1861 Census: living in Brewer Street North, Clerkenwell, with wife Maria (Hurle) Macdonald Occupation = Porter at H.M. Stationery Office
1891 census: living in North Road, Islington, with wife Maria (Hurle) Macdonald, daughter Annie Macdonald and son Arthur Macdonald
Occupation = Printers Warehouseman
1901 census Living in Clerkenwell, with wife Maria (Hurle) Macdonald and daughter Annie Macdonald
He died in 1912 in Islington.
But his Dad is still a mystery man. Like you, I can't find any mention in the 1841 and 1851 census lists. Perhaps he had emigrated?
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In 1841 - Henry jnr was only 12yrs old and William 6yrs - so I think we can rule out emigration for Henry snr
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With not much knowledge of London areas (apart from a few), I found this which looks a good fit according to yr of birth to have had a son bap. 1805 :-\
1851
John MacDonnell
Marital status Widower
Age 70
Birth year 1781
Occupation Private Soldier Royal Hospital Chelsea
Birth place Scotland
Parish Chelsea
County Middlesex
Parliamentary borough Chas Saint Badcocke
Registration district Chelsea
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 1472
Folio 551
Page 29
Note though, as he was in hospital someone else would have given the spelling.
I don't see him in 1861 on a census so looking for a death 1851 - 1861 may hold a clue but that's a BIG ? as he was a widower & probably his death was registered by a hospital employee although maybe not....may have been his son, hopefully?
I wonder if this birth is by the same John & Eleanor....
Alice Elizabeth Ann Macdonald b 13 Jul 1807 & Christened 11 Oct 1807 at St. James, Westminster, Middlesex, England to John Macdonald & Eleanor....don't you wish they would have used maiden names ::)
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NDWJ-Q4M
Adding this as the names John & William are included & may be of use :-\
1841
Barretts Court, St Marylebone, Marylebone, Middlesex, England
William McDonald Male 45 1796 Ireland (Occ. Boot M) Probably MAKER
Ann McDonald Female 39 1802 Ireland
Jerermia McDonald Male 12 1829 Middlesex, England
John McDonald Male 10 1831 Middlesex, England
Maria McDonald Female 8 1833 Middlesex, England
William McDonald Male 1 1840 Middlesex, England
Annie
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Another birth around the same time...
Caroline Macdonald
B 05 Jul 1803 Holborn, Middlesex
Father John Macdonald
Mother Eleanor Macdonald
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FWNS-655
Do ANY of the forenames of the females feature further down the line?
Sometimes a clue to descent.
Annie
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Is this your tree?
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Macdonald-2284
Annie
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Re Occupation Private Soldier Royal Hospital Chelsea
There is a family legend about one of the Henry Macdonalds having served in the Black Watch Regiment. Which, if were true, might explain the gaps in the census records, if he was out of the country on military service. But it's a leap in the dark.
Any suggestions on the best way of searching military service records online?
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Is this your tree?
http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Macdonald-2284
Annie
Indeed it is :-)
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Another birth around the same time...
Caroline Macdonald
B 05 Jul 1803 Holborn, Middlesex
Father John Macdonald
Mother Eleanor Macdonald
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FWNS-655
Do ANY of the forenames of the females feature further down the line?
Sometimes a clue to descent.
Annie
Sadly, no.
The female names in the next two generations are permutations of
Eliza, Maria, Ann, Emily, Sarah, Lydia ,Elizabeth and Annie.
I might be clutching at straws looking at those?
Father John Macdonald
Mother Eleanor Macdonald
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Try this....
http://theblackwatch.co.uk/history-and-research/tracing-a-soldier/
Annie
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Often on English records the mother's name was given as her marital name but it wouldn't be unheard of if her maiden name was MacDonald although the name Eleanor (again) is not a common Scottish Highland name but she may have been named from her mother's side if they were English.
I don't mean to sound off putting, just looking at things from different angles.
Annie
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I should have added, the name John MacDonald/McDonald in Scotland with no specifics & only a possible for a yr of birth would be a "needle in a haystack" sadly as John was a very common name.
Annie
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Correct names/area but era way off but this looks to be one of your kin possibly?
Henry Macdonald
Birth year 1894 London, Middlesex
Occupation Blacksmith Mate
Attestation 28 Feb 1911
Attestation age 17
Service number 94381
Married 06 Dec 1915
Child Henry John, birth date 08 Sep 1916
Archive reference AIR 79/855
Next of kin Henry John Macdonald
Record set British Royal Air Force, Airmen's service records 1912-1939
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory Service Records
Collections from Great Britain
Annie
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I wonder if this is the Henry John Macdonald I should have been looking for?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5XK-29N
Name Henry Thomas Mcdonald
Gender Male
Christening Date 20 Oct 1805
Christening Place SAINT ANNE SOHO,WESTMINSTER,LONDON,ENGLAND
Birth Date 29 Sep 1805
Father's Name John Mcdonald
Mother's Name Eleanor
But that pushes the legendry Scottish roots back another generation to John and Eleanor. From where?
I have highlighted it.........Henry Thomas.............not Henry John?
Annie
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Could this be relevant....
Henry T MacDonald
Service number 2756
Rank Private
London Regiment
Soldier Number: 2756, Rank: Private, Corps: London Regiment
Archive reference WO372/12
Archive reference description, Campaign Medal Index Cards and Silver War Badge Cards
Great Britain
Image link http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/SearchUI/Details?uri=D3790500
Record set World War One British Army medal index cards
Category Military, armed forces & conflict
Subcategory First World War
Collections from Great Britain
Annie
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I should have added, the name John MacDonald/McDonald in Scotland with no specifics & only a possible for a yr of birth would be a "needle in a haystack" sadly as John was a very common name.
Annie
Yes, the number of "John Macdonald"s is doing my head in.
For example, this one from the 1861 census:
Name John Macdonald
Wife = Sophia Macdonald
Birth Year (Estimated) 1816
Birthplace Scotland
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2MG-C3LN
That doesn't seem to be(?) the same strand of Macdonalds I'm looking for.
Except, just to confuse me, the 1861 census says he's living in Ely Place, Lambeth. Which just happens to be the same street where, according to the 1881 census, my Maria Frances (Hurle) Macdonald and her son Robert were also living.
What are the odds of that happening?
But I can find no connection between the two branches.
It's hurting my head. ???
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Mmmm.......families did tend to "stick together" & it wouldn't surprise me if they were related.
John is the only name I can pin as a Scottish name apart from William which is very much less common although not as uncommon as Henry or Thomas.
I wonder if Henry is anywhere on census as Harry?
Annie
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1861
12, Brewer Street North, Clerkenwell, London, England
Henry MacDonald Head Married 31 1830 Porter H M Stationery Office Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Maria MacDonald Wife Married 26 1835 - Islington, Middlesex, England
Maria MacDonald Daughter 5 1856 Scholar Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Mary Ann MacDonald Daughter 3 1858 Scholar City of London, Middlesex, England Transcription
Emily A MacDonald Daughter 1 1860 - Clerkenwell, Middlesex, England
Henry Hurle Visitor Unmarried 21 1840 Book Binder Islington, Middlesex, England
Annie
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It's father John & Eleanor who are elusive & most needed ;D
Annie
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1861
12, Brewer Street North, Clerkenwell, London, England
...
Annie
Nice to have it confirmed, thanks.
Added: http://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Macdonald-2284
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It's father John & Eleanor who are elusive & most needed ;D
Annie
Yes, it's frustrating. I've found some details on the marriage between Henry Thomas and Eliza Ann Hurle, but it doesn't have any details of the parents.
Is that typical for the era?
(http://www.the-sanctuary.biz/images/history/HTM&EAH.png)
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Here's a salutary lesson on how easily one can get fooled. I've been searching the 1881 and 1891 census records, trying to find Henry John Thomas Macdonald and Maria Hurle in London with Macdonald and/or McDonald as the surname. No joy.
Would you believe it, I've found them with Mackdonald as the surname. With all of the youngest children still at home.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QK6R-8CFG
Is this a common thing with the English getting confused about how to spell Scottish surnames?
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Simple answer is no as it happened worldwide between illiteracy, pronunciations, accents & even families themselves changed surname spellings to differentiate themselves as many forenames were the same in the same areas.
I have one family name with 8 variations to date & have seen more although I can't afford to check if they are my family yet ;D
Annie
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Yes, it's frustrating. I've found some details on the marriage between Henry Thomas and Eliza Ann Hurle, but it doesn't have any details of the parents.
Is that typical for the era?
Yes, we would be very lucky to get anything more than the names of the bride & groom and if they belonged to that parish......occupation & witness names were a bonus. No parents names or addresses.
Annie
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Just this weekend I was talking with a McDonald whose father was also a McDonald. But his grandmother was a McDonnell in Northern Ireland. For some reason his father had moved from Northern Ireland to Scotland, and changed his name from McDonnell to McDonald as he did so. Which nobody minded, but it caused chaos when he applied for a passport and had to produce a birth certificate! :)