RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Staffordshire => England => Staffordshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Aks on Thursday 24 March 16 18:42 GMT (UK)
-
I have for a long time on a back burner to track down details of my ancestor, Frances Mathew, born 1771 in Edingale, Staffordshire. I believe she was christened there on 24 February 1771. It would be very interesting to have her birth or baptism record.
Of even greater interest would be the birth or baptism of her daughter, Phoebe Mathew(s), born about 1796, possibly in Edingale, possibly in neighbouring Lullington or Coton-in-the-elms.
Phoebe is listed as Phoebe Farnell at her marriage (to Thomas Rochford in 1816), following Frances' marriage to Martin Farnell in Lullington in 1805. However, in his will, Martin clearly indicates Phoebe to be the daughter of his wife, Frances Mathew, from before their marriage. I think that Frances was not married when she had Phoebe, which is why I think her maiden name is Mathew, but I cannot be absolutely sure of this.
I hope this makes sense to anyone who might have the time to do a lookup. I was always hoping to get over to the England and go to the Lichfield record office, but so far haven't been able to, and thought that something might have come on-line by now.
-
Hi the record you have for Frances, 24th February 1771 at Holy Trinity, Edingale is with parents George/Eliz correct?
Keyboard86
-
Yes, Keyboard86, that's what I think is her. Thanks, Alan.
-
Possible?
Phoebe MATTHORN, 9 May 1796, Derbyshire
Mother FRANCIS Matthorn
(Source Familysearch.Org)
-
GEORGE/ELIZABETH Baptised Holy Trinity, Edingale, Staffordshire
SUSANNAH, 12 Jan 1765
JANE, 12 June 1766
LIDIA, 15 Sept 1767
CATHERINE, 9 April 1769
FRANCES, 24 Feb 1771
ROBERT, 20 Sept 1772
(FreeREG)
JOHN BACHE Matthew was Baptised same Church 12 April 1789, Mother JANE Matthew (base son)
(FreeREG)
George MATTHEWS married Elizabeth BATT or PRATT, 26 October 1761, Edingale, Stafford, England
(Familysearch.Org)
F/S has these Children to them which arent on FreeREG;
ANN, 19 Sept 1762
JOSEPH, 19 Sept 1763
HANNAH, 31 July 1774
I see Phoebe Rochford died before 1841 Census in Warwickshire.
So as she is not on 1841/1851 Census her pob cant be confirmed.
I think the 1796 Baptism is likely her though.
-
The three baptisms on FS but not on FreeREG are showing on the images for Edingale on FindMyPast, but Joseph was baptised 19 November 1763. All are shown as children of George and Elizabeth.
-
A little more information on the marriage:
George Mathews of this parish, Husbandman, and Elizabeth Batt of the parish of Clifton Campville, spinster, by Licence (which doesn't seem to have survived). I can see where the confusion of Elizabeth's surname arises - it is clearly Batt in the first instance, but where she might have signed (she actually made her mark) there appears to be an "h" at the end of the name - so Batt h :-\
-
George appears to be the son of another George, with wife Elizabeth :o
There is a baptism and burial for George, son of George and Elizabeth at Edingdale in 1744, and then a baptism for George, son of George and Elizabeth on 8 August 1745.
-
Thank you Trish and BumbleB. I'm having difficulty digesting this (not thinking straight today!). Will cross-check with my records and then post again. Thank you very much.
-
Just realised that that 1745 baptism can't be the right one - that would make him only 15/16 when he married Elizabeth in 1761. Sorry :'(
-
Thank you Trish and BumbleB. I've been trying to recall exactly what I know as opposed to what I surmise. From what I originally received through family connections and from web sources, Phoebe Farnell was the daughter of Martin Farnell, who lived in Coton-in-the-Elms from 1750 to 1815, and Frances Mathews, probably born in Edingale, with Phoebe being born around 1796, though I have no direct evidence for this. Martin seems to have been quite a prominent figure, but at some point seems to have gone bankrupt and it was from his will that I discovered that Phoebe was not actually his daughter, whereas the family thought we were descended from him.
I have the record of the marriage of Martin Farnell to Frances Mathew on 17 march 1805 in Lullington, so the information about Frances seems basically to check out.
Therefore, although Phoebe is listed as Phoebe Farnell at her marriage, she presumably must have been born Phoebe Mathew(s) and assumed the name Farnell after her mother's marriage to Martin.
Mathew(s) was either Frances' married name, in which case there should be a marriage of a Frances someone to a someone Mathew(s) in or around Edingale probably before 1796, or Mathew(s) was her maiden name and Phoebe was illegitimate.
As you correctly point out, Trish, Phoebe seems to have died in 1835 and so is not to be found on any censuses, which would have been a great help otherwise.
Having written all this to get my thoughts clear (and allow anyone to pick holes in my reasoning), I will now go back and look at what you kindly reported!
-
Thank you for all the details of the Matthew family which are very useful.
I do not understand at the moment how Francis or Frances MATTHORN could have become Frances MATHEW at the time of her marriage to Martin Farnell. Or do you think this is a transcription error?
There appears to be a record of Martin Farnell's marriage in 1805 in Derbyshire on FindMyPast. Would this tell us whether Frances had previously been married or not, or would I have to apply to the record office to get the marriage licence?
Thanks,
Alan
-
The FindMyPast marriage entry for Martin Farnell in 1805 is merely a copy of the transcription made by Family Search. I think you need to obtain a copy of the ORIGINAL parish register entry, probably from the Records Office. The transcription does not say whether the marriage was by Banns or by licence.
-
Thank you, BumbleB.
Why do you say that the Licence for the marriage of George Mathews and Elizabeth Batt doesn't seem to have survived?
Would there be no point then in my requesting it from Lichfield?
(Their minimum price is for 2 marriage licences!)
Thanks,
Alan
-
Re the marriage licence - the surviving Bonds and Allegations for the Diocese of Lichfield - held at Lichfield - are available to view on FindMyPast - there is no entry for George Matthews in 1761.
-
BUT the bond and allegation for Martin Farnell have survived.
He was aged 21 and upwards, a bachelor farmer of the parish of Lullington, and married Frances Mathews, a spinster, also of the parish of Lullington. The Bond is dated 4 February 1805.
-
Gosh, thank you so much, BumbleB.
I'm sorry to ask possibly stupid questions, but if Frances Mathews was a spinster when she married Martin Farnell and (according to Martin's will) she previously had a daughter, Phoebe, then this would appear to confirm that Frances was not previously married, that Phoebe was illegitimate and that Mathews was Frances' maiden name. Does that sound reasonable?
-
That would be my interpretation, also. ;D
-
Not sure if you are still researching this?
Martin Farnell was the eldest of four brothers that owned the Ashby-de-la-Zouch Bank (1790-1805).
Joseph died in 1802 and John between his will dated 13th April 1803, and probate on 25th August 1804. Martin was declared bankrupt the following March. Maybe these two deaths close together caused the problems in the Bank. Thomas was the fourth and youngest brother.
In Martin's will dated 15th November 1815, it states "until my adopted daughter Phoebe Farnell or usually so called (a child of my said wife before my marriage with her) shall attain the age of twenty one". Therefore she must have been born after 1794.
If you also check the Frances signature on their marriage Banns it clearly shows the surname as double T and S MATTHEWS.
Hope this helps
-
Further to my post a few minutes ago;
I just found an entry on Ancestry.co.uk as follows
Phoebe MACHER Derbyshire 9 July 1796 (Lullington);
July 9 Baptized Phoebe Spurious Daughter of Frances (looks like Milkshake ;D) but if you know what you're looking for you can make it out to be Matthews (the ws on the end is very faint).
Archaic meaning of Spurious (in offspring) illegitimate.
Regards,
Dave
-
Thats interesting Dave as I posted it in 2016 as;
Phoebe MATTHORN, 9 May 1796, Derbyshire
Mother FRANCIS Matthorn
(Source Familysearch.Org)
I had a good laugh with your description of milkshake ;D
I also noticed on FreeREG a Marriage;
Susannah FARNELL of Ashby co Leic
Charles HOLLAND
29 Dec 1803 All Saints, Derby
Trish :)
-
Thank you Dave and Trish. Sorry to be slow in responding.
Yes, I have Phoebe born in May 1796 in Lullington and Frances born in 1771 in Edingale. Thank you for the information about the 4 brothers and two of them dying just before Martin declared bankruptcy. Was "Ashby-de-la-Zouch Bank" the name of the bank? Perhaps, as you say, that played a role. I've always kind of imagined that Martin overreached himself, but I don't really know. I didn't realise until I read his will that Phoebe (my 4th g grandmother) was his adopted daughter, and with it went my chance of having at least one somewhat illustrious ancestor, since he was high sheriff of Derbyshire in 1789. I guess I'll never know who Phoebe's father was.
By any chance, do either of you know if a certain genealogical website has published the parish records for Coton-in-the-Elms?
All the best,
Alan
-
Have you tried FreeREG Allan?
-
Thank you Trish. They don't appear to be on freereg. Was told a couple of years ago they would be coming soon on a certain paid website, but not sure if they have. Happy Christmas to you! :)
-
Merry Christmas to you also.
Hopefully those records will appear on that site for you soon :)
-
Parish records for Coton in the Elms only date from 1846 -
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DBY/CotonintheElms
-
Staffordshire Records Office do not hold Coton in the Elms church records, but they hold the following for Lullington.
Lullington - BT's - baptisms 1662-1868, marriages 1662-1831, burials 1662-1868. Baptisms and burials missing 1832-1867.
-
Dear Dave (@ProvincialNotesDave),
In case you are still around, I'm wondering where you found some of the details that you posted back in 2020, such as the fact that the Ashby-de-la-Zouch Bank existed from 1790-1805 and was owned by the Farnell brothers. I do have Martin's will which someone helped me transcribe a few years ago.
You wrote that "Martin Farnell was the eldest of four brothers that owned the Ashby-de-la-Zouch Bank (1790-1805). Joseph died in 1802 and John between his will dated 13th April 1803, and probate on 25th August 1804. Martin was declared bankrupt the following March. Thomas was the fourth and youngest brother."
In my research I found that seemingly Martin had a twin brother, Joseph, and several other brothers: Thomas (1749) who may have died as an infant, Thomas Wagstaff (1752), Henry (1754) and William (1756). It seems like their parents were Joseph Farnell and Susannah Newby.
I found the will of John Farnell (though not the probate), which is difficult for me to read, but does seem to mention that he had a brother called Martin. However, I cannot find the birth or Christening of John.
Thanks,
Alan