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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: tomy on Monday 21 March 16 12:09 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,i have just managed to get my grandfathers birth certificate.Alexander Kerr 04/04/1886,it has his mothers maiden name but no fathers name.It says that the fathers name was not captured so does this mean the obvious that the father isn't known or what else can it mean.Cheers
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Father's name not captured seems to suggest that it was possibly written down but maybe faded due to watery ink just my personal view on it
had he any sibling's born before or after him to compare with
is his father's name recorded on his marriage cert
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Just a line drawn through where his fathers name should be.He had a sister born in 1889 with the fathers name as John Mcroberts and this is who I have always thought was his father and my Great Grandfather but now I just do not know.They all came to Airdrie as a family and in the 1891 census John Mcroberts names Alexander as his son but its possible that he didn't meet Alexanders mother Emma Kerr until around 1889.
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It could also mean that he was illegitimate! ::)
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Yes my thoughts are he was illegitimate,and he just used John Mcroberts as his father.I have been advised that I should look in the church records and I have a friend who is trying to help but it is a real shock to me to find out I may not know who my Great Grandfather really is.
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With a legitimate birth, there is a presumption of legitimacy, and the birth can be registered without both parents necessarily being present. With an illegitimate birth, the father must be present and confirm paternity for his name to appear on the certificate. If that doesn’t happen, then the Registrar will put a line through the box for his name. Otherwise the mother might name someone else without their knowledge, which could lead to obvious difficulties later. Where the parents were not married the word “formerly” will normally have been deleted against the mother’s name (because in most cases she’ll still be using her maiden name). So you can look for that on the birth certificate.
In some illegitimate births I have seen, the mother used the father’s name as a middle name. So you get a clue to his identity that way. Doesn’t always happen though.
And as you have discovered, some baptism records will record the father of an illegitimate child, often with words like “reputed” against his name.
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On Alexanders birth certificate there is a line through where his fathers name should be and his mother uses her maiden name so can I say that he is illegitimate for sure? .The funny thing about all this is that John Mcroberts and Emma Kerr had a daughter three years later in 1889 and on her birth certificate they are making out they are married as Emma gives her name as Mcroberts so I am left wondering if they were actually seeing each other in 1886.
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Irish birth certificates don’t explicitly say illegitimate on them but this birth certificate has been issued in the standard format that you would expect to find for an illegitimate birth. If the couple had been married at the time of the birth, you would expect to see the father’s name, and the mother would be Emma McRoberts, formerly Kerr. Obviously that’s not the case with this certificate, so I would say you can safely assume it was an illegitimate birth.
I assume you have looked for a marriage between the parents. But even if you did not find one in the civil registration records, they may have considered themselves husband and wife by custom and repute. Today we use the term “common law spouse” though that has no real basis in law, but custom and repute marriages in Scotland did have legal validity until 1939 or so.
An irregular marriage did not require the presence of a clergyman. Irregular marriages were by exchange of promises before witnesses, by betrothal and consummation, or by cohabitation and repute, and were forms of marriage recognised by Scots Law, yet may have taken place without any official record of the event. They remained a lawful form of marriage until the Marriage (Scotland) Act of 1939, which effectively replaced them by register office ceremonies. (Not previously an option in Scotland).
See:
http://www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/
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I can understand now why they were declaring themselves to be man and wife on their daughters birth certificate in 1889.I have a marriage certificate for them in 1900 in Airdrie so could I assume that if John was Alexander's father that he would have added his name to the birth certificate.
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I am not 100% certain what the law is in Northern Ireland on adding a father’s name to a birth certificate. I think that in Scotland once a couple marry a child born prior to the marriage is automatically legitimised, and the Registrar can make an entry in the Register of Corrected Entries (RCE) recording that. Presumably after some sort of statutory declaration by the father. (The Registrar never amends the original. They just put a note in the margins referring to the RCE and that’s where you find the extra information).
It might not be the same in Northern Ireland. I don’t know. If you really want to find out, ring GRONI in Belfast who keep the records and they’ll tell you.
But the other thing that occurs to me is that it would undoubtedly involve the father going specially to Belfast to see the Registrar to get the matter attended to. So a bit of time and effort required there. He might just have let it go. People didn’t use birth certificates very often in 1900. There were no passports and you rarely had to produce the document. Getting his son’s birth certificate amended may not have been very high up his list of priorities.
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What was John's occupation on Emma's birth cert?
Could he have been absent through work i.e. unable to attend the registry office when Alexander was born?
What was John's father's name as this may be a clue as to John being the father if Alexander was John's father's name?
Annie
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Thanks to everyone for your efforts.
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Rosinish,on John and Emma's marriage certificate he is a miner in Airdrie,both Emma and johns fathers were called Alexander so no clue there.it just seems odd to me that if John was Alexander's father in 1886 why would he be called Kerr and not Mcroberts,would they wait three and a half years to have another child in 1889 and claim to be married on this birth certificate when they didn't claim to be married on johns.
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Registered births do not take into account any stillbirths or miscarriages that would have occured. In addition, it could be that the father was working away from home for a while, in gaol, etc.
It wasn't uncommon for illegitimate children to list a stepfather or mother's long-term partner as their father on a marriage certificate.
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I've taken everything in and I think my only hope is to find a side note or comment on the birth or baptism cert.thanks again all.
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If Alexander died in Scotland, what does that say his father's name is? Though not as reliable as other certificates, it would still be interesting to know.
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on alexanders marriage and death certificates he gives his father as john mcroberts but its possible that he just adopted john as his father.
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My grandmother was illegitimate and I found out her father's name on her baptism record in Aghalee C of I church records. It just had an I against it, but gave the father's name. Good old C of I!!! Do you think he might have been baptised and where??
RosemaryJoan
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had a friend check out 1st Presbyterian dromore but no baptism there so probably it was 1st Presbyterian dromara but I have no idea how to check out church records myself.
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Would this be your Emma's baptism?
1st Dromara Presbyterian
Address 1 KINALLEN
Address 3 Banbridge
Date of Birth 22:11:1857
Date of Baptism/Registration 11:03:1859
Father's First Name ALEXANDER
Father's Surname KERR
Mother's First Name MARY
Mother's Surname KELSO
Comment 2 Minister/Priest: CRAIG WILLIAM.
Rosemary Joan
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Thanks for your effort Rosemary Joan it is indeed Emma's baptism but I am looking for her son Alexander Kerr born 04/04/1886 and I think that it may have been at 1st dromara Presbyterian also.
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Yes, I realise that. Still looking, but this is probably John McRoberts info (?)
Alexander McROBERTS . Killinchy married Martha McVea 4 Jun 1842 at Killinchy Presbyterian Church; father of child b. 18 Mar 1847 & John b. 21 Feb 1850 & David b. 4 Sep 1852 & James b. 12 Dec 1854 & Martha & Alexander b. 5 Sep 1857 & Ringland Fisher McRoberts b. 8 Feb 1860 & Martha b. 30 May 1862 & Andrew b. 18 Jan 1865 & bpt. Raffrey Presbyterian Church
RosemaryJoan
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Unfortunately the baptism records of Dromara Presbyterian only go up to 1881 online, so no luck there. You would have to get in touch with the church I think, unless someone else has any ideas.
RosemaryJoan
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There's a copy of 1st Dromara's baptisms in PRONI. They go from 1762 to 1959, so should cover the year you are interested in.
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This search is getting very strange. John McRoberts and Emma Kerr had a daughter Violet born 17 Sep 1889.
John McRoberts and Sarah Jane Kerr had a son, John born 19 Mar 1886 in Drumillar
John McRoberts and Sarah Jane Kerr had a daughter Sarah Jane born 26 Apr 1888 and here is a marriage for John McRoberts and Sarah Jane Kerr
Civil Marriages
Date of Marriage 21/07/1882
Husband's Name JOHN MCROBERTS
Husband's Address TULLINDONEY
Husband's Occupation LABOURER
Husband's Age FA
Husband's Denomination Presbyterian
Husband's Marital Status Bachelor (Previously unmarried)
Husband's Father's Name JAMES MCROBERTS
Husband's Father's Occupation LABOURER
Husband's Witness SAMUEL KERR
Wife's Name SARAH JANE KERR
Wife's Address DRUMMILLEN
Wife's Age FA
Wife's Denomination Presbyterian
Wife's Marital Status Spinster (Previously unmarried)
Wife's Father's Name JAMES KERR
Wife's Father's Occupation FARMER
Wife's Witness ELIZABETH ANN MORELAND
Comment BY LICENCE REV J RENTOUL.
Address 1 DROMORE 1ST Presbyterian
Address 2 BANBRIDGE
Address 3 DROMORE
How many of these children were on the 1891 census?
Rosemary Joan (puzzled)
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The John Mcroberts and Emma Kerr who had violet in 1889 is not the same John Mcroberts who married Sarah Jane Kerr.
I have already contacted the church but no response from them.
Alexander Mcroberts who married Martha mcvea are a different family.
Just to make things even more puzzling is that my John Mcroberts was born illegitimate in 1866 to a Rebecca Findlay but he then gives his father as Alexander Mcroberts on his marriage certificate.
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To everyone who offered advice on this subject thanks and to draw a line under it can I ask one last thing.You guys have more knowledge than me on Ireland in 1880/1890 so what are your final thoughts about who Alexanders Kerrs father could be.He was born on 04/04/1886 and his mother was Emma Kerr,there is no father named on his birth certificate only Emma Kerr.Emma Kerr had a daughter Violet in 1889 and the father is named as John Mcroberts,they come over to Airdrie and get married in 1890 with Alexander and he then calls himself Mcroberts.What are the chances or not that John is his real father from 1886 when his next child with Emma was born nearly four years later.I have tried to obtain his baptism certificate from the local churches in Dromore and Dromara without success.
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It seems that I may never know who Alexander's real father was as I have written to the churches local to Kinallen where he was born but no clues there.Would it be to much to ask someone to list me the Presbyterian churches within a five mile radius of Dromara just in case he was baptised further from home.Regards
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Hi Tomy,
Just read through your post, this is a great website to check for births, deaths and marriage around Ireland, if you put in Alexander Kerrs name and year he was born it will bring up his birth certificate information, it doesn't list his fathers name.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/agreement.jsp.
Elaine
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Hi Tomy,
Just read through your post, this is a great website to check for births, deaths and marriage around Ireland, if you put in Alexander Kerrs name and year he was born it will bring up his birth certificate information, it doesn't list his fathers name.
https://civilrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/agreement.jsp.
Elaine
OP stated in first post in this thread that "i have just managed to get my grandfathers birth certificate."
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Aghadowey, thanks for taking an interest.I have tried to find Alexanders father by getting in touch with the local churches for a baptism but no luck there,don't know what I can do now.