RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: coombs on Sunday 13 March 16 12:36 GMT (UK)
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It is great when you visit ancestor villages and towns and even city streets and churches, rather than just hearing about them on Ancestry or Google etc. Even Streetview of the villages is nothing like being there yourself.
My ancestor John Titshall was born in 1823 in Suffolk. He wed in 1845 in Hacheston and 4 years earlier was living a few doors away from his future wife Sarah Archer. I have bene to Hacheston a number of times including the church he wed at. And you get a clearer picture of their life. You even examine 1841 and 1851 census returns to try and nail the location in the village residence they lived at as a lot of village houses were not numbered, but some named or near a pub or shop or something.
In 2015 I went to Bletchingdon in Oxon where my 3xgreat gran was born. I think judging by census returns she was born on the main road in one of the houses behidn the Old Red Lion which overlooked the green.
I have been to London many times and visited where my ancestors lived.
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Visiting places where our ancestors lived does give you that extra connection with them.
In October we had a holiday in St Monance, Fife, Scotland (a small former fishing village) where most of my late mother's family came from. It was a wonderful experience. I visited the Church, walked many of the streets trying to imagine them walking there too.
I even found a number of family graves in the Churchyard including that of my 3 x great grandparents and their children who had died in infancy. It was very moving and I was able to pay my respects. Also at the war memorial where some distant cousins are remembered for their sacrifice in WW1.
Its a beautiful spot. The Church and Churchyard are right on the Firth of Forth and some of the ancient gravestones are practically falling into the sea.
Many more places on my list still to visit.
Dorrie
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I visited a few places from my mum's side of the family, a few years back, in Norfolk and Suffolk. Discovered a few lovely places off the beaten track. I would have loved to have found my ancestor's farm, but the address "West of River Ouse, Southery" wasn't enough to pin it down! Luckily another ancestor's pub is still in use today.
Still haven't visited anywhere on my dad's side though. Long overdue a trip to Essex.
It's so easy to research from home now, a lot of us neglect visiting the places themselves, which is sad. My mum and grandad went on family history holidays together, because local record offices and graveyards were the only way of finding some of the information we have at our fingertips today.
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I couldn't agree more. I found my ancestors' croft on the west coast of Scotland intact and was able to look inside the house as the builders were restoring it. Also we located the later generations of that family's tenement houses in Greenock.
A family history bonus happened when I spotted my gt gt gt grandparents' house from the Magical Mystery Tour bus in Woolton near Liverpool.
London was a disappointment, since Selfridges swallowed up my gt grandfather's chemists shop and the house they subsequently inhabited had been replaced by a block of flats. In the case of London though, so many street views survive that it is easier to imagine what life was like there in the late 19th century.
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I have been to Oxford, Suffolk, Essex, Sussex, London and Durham, all ancestral places. I hope to visit Dorset one day where my Coombs family originated. And I hope to visit the township in Pennsylvania where my 3xgreat grandad lived once his wife died and he joined a daughter who emigrated there. I hope to visit Selkirk where my Stewart line originated and the ancestral Huguenot villages.
Where my great gran was born in Oxford is now the Westgate Shopping Centre. Since I went though, I have a much clearer pic of their lives.
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Much to my husband's embarrassment I get very excited when I walk past I building that is old enough to have been there when my ancestors lived in the area. I just can't help thinking oooo so and so would have walked past this building.
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My 3 X Gt Grandfather was rector in Cold Overton, Leicestershire.
On the day of his 50th wedding anniversary to my 3 X Gt Grandmother his youngest son married in his church.
A newspaper article of the day tells how the whole village celebrated with them and the bells rang out.
I have visited the village and church a couple of times, which makes it easy for me to imagine this special family day.
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On trips to the UK, I have visited many places where my ancestors and families had lived, worked died and were buried - through addresses on census, certificates etc. Also churches where they were baptised, or married. Camera always vital!
I visited St. Peter's Church in Sheffield (now Sheffield Cathedral) where my great grandparents were married in 1865 (that's the bride on my avatar). When I was sitting in the church, the Vicar came and sat beside me, as I was writing things down, welcomed me and asked what my interest was.
I told him my great grandparents had married there - he thought a little minute then said "come with me"! I followed him into a little side chapel and he stopped in front of a small alter. Then he said, " you are now standing in the exact same place where your great grandparents would have stood to be married".
I had visions of them all standing there. An emotional moment!
Then he showed me round more, he was lovely! What I didn't know at that time, was that my g grandmother had left home to marry my great grandfather, "to the great distress of her parents"!
This was later found in a letter to another relative, which had been published in a book about her (an artist).
I also Google the addresses, and in the majority of cases, if these houses are still standing, have found them on real estate sites. Lots of super indoor and outdoor photos in today's time of course, but some very lovely old buildings.
My best find online for real estate was to find the house where my g grandparents, their parents and their children were living in the Lambeth London 1861 census. It's now a listed house in the Conservation Village of Stockwell.
But the visits I have made and the photos I have of the Miner's Rows of Ayrshire and the tenements of Glasgow are equally treasured by me.
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Here is the house which had been built by my 5 x great grandfather in 1768 (NI = Nicolaus Jacob),
and where my 4 x great grandfather has built the barn in 1788 (AI = Adam Jacob).
With the help of a ladder I would be able to touch the oak girders, which had been touched by my 4 x great grandfather ...
An other story, Palatinate had been French from 1797 to 1813, and when the Bavarian took over my ancestors had to pay the Bavarian chimney tax plus the French window tax, so there had been plans to close several windows. - The Bavarian kings needed a lot of money to built there palaces.
Here is the house and the graves Adam (r), his wife (m), and an other pair of 4 x great grandparents (l) - there is a lot of interesting text on the stones:
Rudolf
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Super photos Rudolph! Very special too knowing that your Ancestors actually built them as well.
Lovely!
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Thank you jaybelnz,
they are listed as cultural heritage monuments and I have made the photos for the Wikimedia Loves Monuments competition (no trophy for me :'( :) :) )
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Great photos Rudolph! I'll bet your 5 x and 4 x great grandfathers would have been delighted to know their buildings would have stood this long, and would be appreciated by a descendant of theirs :)
sami
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It is my dearest wish to visit all the places in central Europe to which my known ancestors have a connection. So far I have managed to visit Berlin and Budapest. To be standing where they had stood stirred up a wealth of emotions. Aachen and Vienna remain high on my "to see" list.
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Yes Mowsehowse, it's certainly a powerful and emotional moment! My research and then following their footsteps - being in places where they had been married, seeing their homes where they had lived and raised their families and their final resting places, made me feel really connected to those people of mine whom I never knew but whose blood flows deep in my veins, and I truly feel I knew them!
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I haven't had the opportunity to travel overseas to any ancestral homes (yet). I have visited places around South Australia where more immediate ancestors lived and worked. And I have found photos and pictures on the net of various ancestral houses. The best one was the farm where my paternal ancestors lived in the 16th century; the farmhouse has been updated but the stables and barn date back to that time, and have now been converted into a B&B.
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It is great to stand at ancestors graves if they have a headstone in sleepy rural villages. Two of my ancestors John and Sarah Titshall are buried in Bredfield, Suffolk, a rural Suffolk village in the nice quiet churchyard. John was a miller.
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It's always worth visiting your ancestors' resting places... I knew my 5xgreat-grandparents were buried in Assington churchyard in Suffolk, but I wasn't expecting to find a huge gravestone, the biggest in the churchyard, listing several family members including children I wasn't aware of who had died in infancy.
The size and ornate-ness of the grave made me think that they were wealthier than I'd previously thought.
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It's always worth visiting your ancestors' resting places... I knew my 5xgreat-grandparents were buried in Assington churchyard in Suffolk, but I wasn't expecting to find a huge gravestone, the biggest in the churchyard, listimg several family members including children I wasn't aware of who had died in infancy.
So true Claire, but to wander the streets knowing that the buildings were there at the same time as your ancestor is a marvellous thing to do.
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One of my great grandfathers wrote a short poem his wife my great grandmother when she died; it is on the headstone. Very moving.
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Picking a year at random, say 1847, for an ancestor, at random. William Coombs who would have been 19 that year. He was a litho printer. He was probably still living with his mother in Carburton Street, Marylebone (She went into the workhouse in 1848). In 1847 we had cameras, and maybe street lamps but I would think the tenement they lived in Carburton Street was dingy, had a fireplace, wooden flooring and echoey stairs, no electric, no running water, no heating. Washing yourself and clothes in a bowl and using a communal tap I think and a outside loo. And the risk of spread of diseases.
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The following description is of the Miner's Row Cottage that my maternal great grandfather Whitefield Watson was living in c.1881 at 10 Connel Park, New Cumnock, with his parents Joseph & Elizabeth, sisters Susannah & Catherine, and brother John, all named in the 1881 census. This description was kindly given to me by R. of Cumnock, Scotland. R. himself lived in this very same house during his early childhood, from 1950 until 1956. This is his recollection of the house. (Probably about 20 sq feet or so, but can't find the measurement right now).
"The house consisted of two rooms, one a living area and one a kitchen. The living room had two built-in beds in the wall, there would be curtains drawn across these through the day when not in use. There was a coal fired range where all the cooking was done and kettle boiled.
There was a door to the kitchen where you had to step down two steps to get to the floor level. It was just a plain cement floor with a drain at the wall. There was only a very small window on the back wall, with a big white sink in front of it, with one cold water tap only. In the corner was a large round boiler built into a brick surround, with an opening under it at the front for a fire, so as to heat the water. There was a big wooden cover fitted over it, so no weans would fall in and get scalded.
There was always a large tin bath hung on the wall near the back door. The water was boiled by the wife, who then paled it out into the bath, which was placed in the middle of the kitchen floor for her man to wash in when he came home from his shift at the pit. When he finished his bath, the water was poured out onto the floor to clean it, and then brushed down the drain.
I have always mind of, in the spring, you would go through into the kitchen in the morning, and there would be nothing but frogs jumping all over the floor, for they would have come up through the drain at night.
The wife would boil more water and wash the pit clothes in the large sink, using a scrubbing board and bars of soap. Then they would be dried in front of the fire, in winter, for her husband to wear for his next shift at the pit. That happened six days a week, only a Sunday off, what a life!
There was no inside toilet, you had to go to the communal toilets at the back of the rows. There was a small garden at the front, facing onto the main road.
The Clauchan was next door. This was a large room, where the men would play dominoes, cards, darts and carpet bowls - this was a place where the day's work would be talked about. I bet there was more coal shovelled there than was ever done at the pit".
Just slightly different from my paternal great grandparents, who lived in what is now a listed property
in the Conservation area of Stockwell Park in Lambeth, London
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Thank you for posting jaybelnz.
Whilst I've not been fortunate enough to get specific descriptions like this of the places and circumstances of my own ancestors, I do know their backgrounds and have been able to imagine at least some of how they must have lived.
I wonder if you know what I mean when I say it's always at the back of me now I know a little about it, not a burden, but just a history stretching behind me, which I am often reminded of when I step into a hot shower or turn up the central heating, or conversely open a window on to the garden. This research has certainly made me much more aware of my own very lucky circumstances.
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It certainly does make us more aware of how things were for our ancestors, and the progress that had been made by them, right down to emigration for a better life in other countries.
Certainly brings us closer to them, as we can also learn more about their lives and times from all the different websites that are available, and of course, Rootschat - while sitting comfortably in bed, as I am right now, and now it's time I was getting some sleep!
Jeanne 😄
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My Suffolk ancestors seemed to live to good ages, such as 88 in 1865, 86 in 1910, 79 in 1868. I think living in the rural, pretty isolated villages such as Easton, Hacheston and Letheringham must have helped, in the fresh countryside well away from the diseases that was more rife in towns and cities.
Many of my London ancestors died of bronchitis, erysipelas, or phthisis. In April 1884 an ancestor who lived in Whitfield Street, St Pancras, died aged 48 of chronic bronchitis. Her husband died in January 1885 aged 56, of the same thing, a day after going into St Pancras Workhouse.
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My Suffolk ancestors seemed to live to good ages, such as 88 in 1865, 86 in 1910, 79 in 1868. I think living in the rural, pretty isolated villages such as Easton, Hacheston and Letheringham must have helped, in the fresh countryside well away from the diseases that was more rife in towns and cities.
Many of my London ancestors died of bronchitis, erysipelas, or phthisis. In April 1884 an ancestor who lived in Whitfield Street, St Pancras, died aged 48 of chronic bronchitis. Her husband died in January 1885 aged 56, of the same thing, a day after going into St Pancras Workhouse.
Definitely that, but also before penicillin of course!
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My Suffolk ancestors seemed to live to good ages, such as 88 in 1865, 86 in 1910, 79 in 1868. I think living in the rural, pretty isolated villages such as Easton, Hacheston and Letheringham must have helped, in the fresh countryside well away from the diseases that was more rife in towns and cities.
Many of my London ancestors died of bronchitis, erysipelas, or phthisis. In April 1884 an ancestor who lived in Whitfield Street, St Pancras, died aged 48 of chronic bronchitis. Her husband died in January 1885 aged 56, of the same thing, a day after going into St Pancras Workhouse.
Definitely that, but also before penicillin of course!
Sadly TB continued well into the 20th Century. My grandfather died in 1925 at the age of 48, after years in and out of TB hospitals (I have some very sad letters from him to my grandmother), and my uncle died in 1943 of TB - I found him in a sanitorium in Woodford Green in London in the 1939 Register. My mother used to say of this uncle, her brother, that having been an adult in the slump of the 1930's, he had never worked. Added - perhaps I should clarify, what I mean is that he had never been able to get a job.
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My grandfather had been exposed to gas during WW I, and as a consequence had weakened lungs. He died of TB in 1935.
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I think that "trying to picture their lives" is what it iss all about, ultimately.
Visiting the places they would have been, walking the streets they would have walked, standing before the altar where they were married and the font where their children were baptised.
Sometimes you get a lot out of a site visit, sometimes little or nothing. But until you actually visit the locus in quo, you'll never know.
And sometimes, having seen it, you'll be able to make sense of details or throwaway coments which otherwise would mean nothing to you.
Then there are the unexpected finds ... the plaque on the wall of the church in Great Staughton, for instance, recording the deaths of three men in the tower in a lightning strike. Wewre these men known to my ancestors? Were they their freiends, drinking companions, childhood playmates? Or were they their sworn and bitter enemies?
It all adds to our picture of their lives ...
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Yes I agree...I went to St. John's, Newfoundland where my Father was born and met cousins and also visited many places where my ancestors had lived and found this lovely hand made picture with all the names of the Families associated with the church where my Grandpa was baptised and my Great Grandparents were married. I also took this photo of the house in Springdale Street where my Father was born.
Carol
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Then there are the unexpected finds ... the plaque on the wall of the church in Great Staughton, for instance, recording the deaths of three men in the tower in a lightning strike. Wewre these men known to my ancestors? Were they their freiends, drinking companions, childhood playmates? Or were they their sworn and bitter enemies?
Visiting the places where our ancestors lived often throws up as many questions as it does answers!
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From my 2 New Cumnock Ayrshire grandparents lines, I have a lot of Coal Miners dying from pulmonary diseases, or died in Coal Mining accidents. The women however, pretty much lived well into their 80's or longer? Such strong women, huge families, living in small miners row cottages, and knowing the the coal mining would likely get their husband, their relatives and friends, or their own children - one day and one way or another! Yet the women seem to have weathered the storms, and most lived to a ripe old age.
The saddest death I have is a child who died at just 5 months old, from an overdose of medication - the death cert said he had measles.
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I have a death certificate for a child that says exhaustion due to whooping cough :(. Poor little thing.
My family seem to have died really young e.g. my 2xgrt gran fell down a well and another 2x grt grand had TB or lived to a good age, I don't seem to have many with medium length life spans for some reason.
Last year I visited the Fort where my 3x grt grandfather was the surgeon, it felt strange standing in what had been the old infirmary thinking that he had worked there.
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I stood in the front bar of a hotel that my great grandmother had the licence for back in 1912. That's my excuse anyway. ::)
Seriously though, the manager was really good when I showed him the photos of it back then. He worked out which window was which, even though it had been extensively remodelled.
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I stood in the front bar of a hotel that my great grandmother had the licence for back in 1912. That's my excuse anyway. ::)
;D
It's always good to see a family pub appear in previous generations..... the excuse to pay it a visit, of course, and you're more likely to find an exact location for it, unlike a lot of village ancestors whose address is "Cottage, Street".
I was pleased to find the Shoulder Of Mutton pub in Assington, Suffolk (belonging to my ancestor Charles Godden) was still open. Though no longer doubling as a butcher's shop and slaughterhouse, as it did in Charles's day!
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Family lore has it that after closing time, they served drinks in the stables, while someone stood look out for the constable on his horse. It was rather remote back then.
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Many of my ancestors were mill workers from Yorkshire and Lancashire and coal miners from Lancashire and Wales, also some metal workers from Birmingham. Most of the housing they lived in was pulled down in the slum clearances after the war but you can still find some old photos online on local history sites.
Some Birmingham streets where my ancestors lived
(https://municipaldreams.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/cromwell-street-duddeston-1905.jpg)
(http://i1.birminghammail.co.uk/incoming/article5074834.ece/ALTERNATES/s1023/Wednesday.jpg)
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Brilliant pics Sally. Many of my husband's family lived in houses like these in Birmingham.
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My great grandmother was a soldier's wife - they met in Halifax NS. When I visited the citadel I saw the casements where the soldiers lived; married ones who had their wives with them would have had a tiny area at the back screened by a curtain where the family would live - children as well - the wife doing cooking & laundry for the single soldiers as well to earn a little money.
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I often find myself transported by a description of a place where my lot used to live. Those with London connections will find it very interesting to read the descriptions of places in the Charles Booth poverty survey - http://booth.lse.ac.uk/
I am particularly lucky that many of my ancestors used St. Mary's church in Eccleston to the west of Chorley.
Considering that the village is named for the presence of the church, the building is not, as you would expect, in the village centre, but to its north, and is still surrounded by fields.
This means that the church looks very much like it did when Henry VIII decided that parish registers had to be kept. The main difference is a parapet added to the top of the tower in 1733.
It's easy to get some idea of those ancestors walking around there, and of course some reside there still.
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My 3xgreat gran was born in a quiet rural Sussex village in 1839 and died in 1886 in a tenement block in Holborn. What a change.
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Brilliant pics Sally. Many of my husband's family lived in houses like these in Birmingham.
This topic on the birminghamhistory site has a lot of great old photos of Birmingham.
Courtyards and Yards of Brum
http://birminghamhistory.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?40378-Courtyards-and-yards-of-brum
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When I went to UK last year, I visited the Mansfield Library/Museum, as I had earlier purchased a book from there, through an article I had found online re " Mansfield's Victorian Lady Artist" Ann Paulson. I had learned a lot about her Art, her life in England and in Australia, where she died. I found some references in the book that referred to some of her original paintings still being held at Mansfield Library/museum, got back in touch with the Curator, and she arranged to have the paintings out for me to view when I visited. And I was able to photograph them.
It was amazing to see some of her original works, some of which had been exhibited in the Great Exhibition of London, and some others in Paris. Later in Australia, when she went there to live with her son after she was widowed.
The frames were pretty old and tatty, but I had some wonderful cleanups done by our great Rootschat restorers, earlier when I had received photos by email from the library.
Another lovely thing in the book, along with a lot of other family information, was a note from her Australian diary, stating that in a letter from home, that her Aunt Jane had run away from home to marry that Henry, to the great distress of her parents. This was in 1865, and that little lady Jane on my avatar, is my great grandmother, I call her my runaway bride. I think I may have put that in an earlier post on this thread, they're the ones that married in St. Peter's Church, now the Sheffield Cathedral, which I visited in 2013, of course I didn't know about the artist at that time, nor that my great grandmother had eloped!
I'm currently trying to track down some paintings of another family artist, the son of one of Henry and Jane's daughters, whose second marriage took him to Cornwall.
These artists are from my paternal family, but my Mum dabbled a bit as well, and I have a couple of hers, and my brothers have a couple, but I am totally non artistic! I can sew, do some simple knitting, but I cannot even draw a decent stick man, so this artistic talent that should be flowing through my blood, has definitely not been inherited by me or my brothers! 😄😄
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Nice to see the Birmingham street photos. A few ancestor siblings ended up in Birmingham.
This is Bletchingdon, Oxfordshire, taken by me as a car passenger. My 3xgreat gran was born in one of the cottages on the right. Sarah Brain, she was born in 1842. Her mum died in 1848 and her dad in 1854 of phthisis. Sarah was one of many children, only her and 3 others survived. Sarah was 12, her brother 14, her older sister 15 and younger sister 8 in 1854. I looked at Oxford RO for poor relief records but there is a gap from 1847 to 1869. Sarah and her sisters went into service and the brother into the army. Sarah later moved to London, wed in Lambeth and ended up in Foulness, Essex.
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/benny1982/DSCN0129_zpsxgtlznyr.jpg) (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/benny1982/media/DSCN0129_zpsxgtlznyr.jpg.html)
My 3xgreat gran was born in 1835 in Shoreditch. I took this pic near Holywell Lane, where she was born, I took this in January 2005 and cannot remember the exact location but near Holywell Lane. Clara Emma Auber. An example of the streets our London rellies lived in.
(http://i401.photobucket.com/albums/pp92/benny1982/CNXT0020.jpg) (http://s401.photobucket.com/user/benny1982/media/CNXT0020.jpg.html)
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unlike a lot of village ancestors whose address is "Cottage, Street".
Oh to have such an accurate address as that! At least there is some possibility of finding a cottage still standing which, though you cannot be sure, might be it.
How about "In a camp in the lane"?
The enumerator didn't even record WHICH lane it was!!!
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In some birth certs, especially in rural parishes, the address is given as just "Hacheston" or "Bletchingdon". Ditto for marriage and death certs, in towns and cities it tends to be more specific, although some marriage certs say just "West Hackney".
I often study census enumeration schedules of ancestral villages to try and nail where in the village the residence was, sometimes it is as clear as mud. I have to note down a nearby pub or blacksmiths to try and nail it, and the enumerator may have done a row of cottages, then across the road then back.
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My Gt Gt Gt Grandfather was married twice. He had fifteen children. Five with his first wife, ten by his second.
Of the fifteen children four were daughters and eleven sons. All his daughters and two sons died before the age of four. Nine sons reached adulthood.
I think of the sad picture, the tiny coffins and tears that must have been shed with these common happenings our ancestors had.
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I often envisage what it was like when my 3xgreat grandfather set sail from Liverpool to Philadelphia in 1886 to join a daughter in Penna. The 2 week voyage, he returned to England for about a year then set sail again in April 1892 to America, this time for good, never to return to England. Ironically his 2nd crossing was 20 years to the month before the Titanic disaster. Also my 3xgreat gran's first cousin worked on The Olympic as a steward for many years.
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I too had 2 x grandparents who sailed to New York, America in 1876 on the SS Denmark
I have imaged their voyage....
They sailed with five children. The oldest about nine, the youngest only a few weeks old.
Hardly any facilities, no disposable nappies, etc etc.....
After about two years my gt gt grandfather died, and my gt gt grandmother brought her children back to the UK.
This time alone.
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Coincidentally that ancestors grandfather was in Ireland in the army from c1771 to 1775. They sailed from there to America in 1775. 63rd Foot. I can picture the 2 months he spent at sea.
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My 3xgreat-grandparents and their children crossed the country from Wiltshire to Essex in the 1850s. I have no idea how they travelled or how long the journey took. Then in the 1870s the two eldest sons and their families sailed to New Zealand.
It's not just their journey that I can't relate to today, but the thought of setting off into the complete unknown, and leaving family, probably knowing you'll never see them again.
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So far I haven't found any ancestors who were transported to Australia! But a slight and remote possibilty with one who may have been, and who may have come to NZ after getting his Ticket of Leave, I believe there were quite a number after that.
I shudder to think what it must have been like in "The Hulks" while waiting for their transportation, possibly for as little as stealing a load of bread to help feed their families! Their life aboard ship when they finally got on their way, and the life they had ahead of them, must have been pretty awful!
However, I would actually be quite happy to know that any ancestor of mine had been transported, after all, those men and women that survived it all helped to form the huge backbone of Australia, and also NZ to a lesser extent! They're part of the history of the country we call Home, and we need to be proud of them and all that they achieved!
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My great, great grandfather was born in Colville Place in St Pancras, just a few hundred yards from Oxford Street. Now what is modern day Fitzrovia. He was born in February 1860. I must have walked down Colville Place several times. And in 2007 the Aussie TV show Neighbours filmed a scene just round the corner on a rare London filming shoot. (I met Jason Donovan in 2014, talking of that show).
That ancestor had a father born in Soho and a mother born in Shoreditch, cannot get more London than that, West End and East End. William Thomas Coombs and Clara Emma Auber. They wed in 1856 but knew each other for over 10 years as his brother and her sister wed in 1845 in Paddington. Maybe in 1854 or 1855, William and Clara were both single, step siblings and decided to date.
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I have looked for years for my 'travelling in work' greatx3 grandfather Richard Cork (1812, Stone, Kent) with his family in the 1851 Census.
I know that he was in Pyrford, Surrey, on 23rd February 1851 for the baptism of his son, Stephen, who was born just before close by in Wisley. He would have had his family with him, wife Jane, daughters Sarah (14), Jane (9), sons Richard (10), Daniel (6), James (3) and babe in arms Stephen.
However, they cannot be found in the 1851, despite a great deal of searching. The family were in Seal, in Kent, for the baptism of their next child in 1853, and I know lived there for some years.
So, in the 1851 it's likely they were living/travelling in a tent or a caravan or a wagon, somewhere on the edge of habitation, between Surrey and Kent, with mother, father, 5 children and a baby.
Can't tell at this distance what the weather might have been like - but I can imagine what March/April in Kent is likely to have been....camp fires, cold, wet, windy - a horse to look after, too?
Even worse than the hovels in London for the rest of my family?
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Blimey I have found another ancestor sibling who was a convict. Thomas Tanner born 1802 to Thos and Susan, have his baptism. Sent to Australia in 1827, shoemaker. I can picture his life as years ago I went to Wollongong and that is where he ended up. What a coincidence, going to a town in 2007 to do a skydive over a town an ancestor sibling lived in.
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I sometimes look at the Booths 1889 Poverty map of London. My great gran was born that year and the street she was born at was "Comfortable, good ordinary earnings". Her grandfather's tenement block was listed as "Lowest class, vicious, semi criminal". He was an ex soldier and over 10 years before had run a beer house but went bust and applied for poor relief. He must have fell on hard times and never recovered.
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I sometimes look at the Booths 1889 Poverty map of London. My great gran was born that year and the street she was born at was "Comfortable, good ordinary earnings". Her grandfather's tenement block was listed as "Lowest class, vicious, semi criminal". He was an ex soldier and over 10 years before had run a beer house but went bust and applied for poor relief. He must have fell on hard times and never recovered.
That sounds like a brilliant resource, thanks for alerting me to it :)
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I sometimes look at the Booths 1889 Poverty map of London. My great gran was born that year and the street she was born at was "Comfortable, good ordinary earnings". Her grandfather's tenement block was listed as "Lowest class, vicious, semi criminal". He was an ex soldier and over 10 years before had run a beer house but went bust and applied for poor relief. He must have fell on hard times and never recovered.
That sounds like a brilliant resource, thanks for alerting me to it :)
Here it is http://www.umich.edu/~risotto/imagemap.html
My great gran was born in south Islington, near the Clerkenwell border. Her fathers birthplace near Oxford Street was in the "Good ordinary earnings" category.
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Here it is http://www.umich.edu/~risotto/imagemap.html
My great gran was born in south Islington, near the Clerkenwell border. Her fathers birthplace near Oxford Street was in the "Good ordinary earnings" category.
I've got a fair few relatives in the London area, this could keep me busy for a long, long time ;D
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I have 3 generations of 1 family living in Lambeth on 1871 census, in Burnley Street which is now a listed building in the conservation Village of Stockwell. My great grandfather was listed as HOH, and his parents were also living there, as well as his wife and brother.
After that in Northumberland Ave. Paddington, (Balham), where my great grandparents lived after that but I can't find either of them on the little map.
Nothing in London for 1881, as the older generation had both died by then, and my great grand parents had emigrated to Boston USA!
Although I have been and visited both, and have photo's of each of the buildings. Northumberland Ave seems to be now part of Notting hill.
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Where does Balham fit in with respect to Paddington JB?
Much closer to Stockwell
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Simple answer?? I don't know! I think it was on an old certificate I have! Somewhere! I'll have to dig it out of my file. Will check it out!
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To Londoners, BalHAM (pronounced with a stagey emphasis on the last syllable), is most famous for
'BalHAM, Gateway to the South' said in a film announcer's voice, from Tony Hancock years ago.....
Definitely Sarf London, miles away from Paddington across The River. But there will be an explanation somewhere, doubtless, in the certificates..... ;)
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While not a Londoner by birth, my great, great gran was born in Sussex but her parents moved to London when she was a few months old in 1864. Her paternal grandparents came from Bermondsey anyway. They lived in Stoke Newington, then moved to Bow in 1865, then to Lambeth in 1876, then to Walworth in 1877 and then to Holborn in late 1878. All this is tracked from the 1871 census, siblings birth certs, school records and a poor relief application in December 1878. So that said gggran grew up in various parts of the capital. She lived in Bow from about mid 1865 to 1876. And I have been to all the locations where the streets were where she grew up.
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While not a Londoner by birth, my great, great gran was born in Sussex but her parents moved to London when she was a few months old in 1864. Her paternal grandparents came from Bermondsey anyway. They lived in Stoke Newington, then moved to Bow in 1865, then to Lambeth in 1876, then to Walworth in 1877 and then to Holborn in late 1878. All this is tracked from the 1871 census, siblings birth certs, school records and a poor relief application in December 1878. So that said gggran grew up in various parts of the capital. She lived in Bow from about mid 1865 to 1876. And I have been to all the locations where the streets were where she grew up.
That's fascinating, Coombs - were they moving about for work, do you think? Because Stoke Newington, Bow, Holborn are all North of the River and Lambeth, Walworth and Bermondsey are South. I come from London, and the two sides of the River are distinctly different populations.
My ancestors came from Kent into Bexley, Greenwich, Woolwich and then my grandfather broke with convention and moved (with his job in the police)across The River to Walthamstow and thence to Leyton/Leytonstone. My father, born in Walthamstow, was definitely a North Londoner (as, I fear, am I).
I also have ancestors who came from the Essex coast to Walworth in South London, also ending up in Greenwich, as well as what seems to be a very London based line who lived in the very very worst bits of East London.
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While not a Londoner by birth, my great, great gran was born in Sussex but her parents moved to London when she was a few months old in 1864. Her paternal grandparents came from Bermondsey anyway. They lived in Stoke Newington, then moved to Bow in 1865, then to Lambeth in 1876, then to Walworth in 1877 and then to Holborn in late 1878. All this is tracked from the 1871 census, siblings birth certs, school records and a poor relief application in December 1878. So that said gggran grew up in various parts of the capital. She lived in Bow from about mid 1865 to 1876. And I have been to all the locations where the streets were where she grew up.
That's fascinating, Coombs - were they moving about for work, do you think? Because Stoke Newington, Bow, Holborn are all North of the River and Lambeth, Walworth and Bermondsey are South. I come from London, and the two sides of the River are distinctly different populations.
My ancestors came from Kent into Bexley, Greenwich, Woolwich and then my grandfather broke with convention and moved (with his job in the police)across The River to Walthamstow and thence to Leyton/Leytonstone. My father, born in Walthamstow, was definitely a North Londoner (as, I fear, am I).
I also have ancestors who came from the Essex coast to Walworth in South London, also ending up in Greenwich, as well as what seems to be a very London based line who lived in the very very worst bits of East London.
Well the father Thomas Roberts was a servant in 1865, then a soap factory labourer in 1868, his father in law died in 1876 and he was a wheelwright. Thomas' wife got her share of her dads will money and they moved to Oakley Street, Lambeth, ran a coffee shop, then to 20 Steedman Street, Walworth, then to Alvey Street to run a beer house. They gave up that license in September 1878 and moved to Holborn where they applied for poor relief. They must have lost all their investments on the beer house. His daughters became tailoresses and he was a soap boiler and night watchman then shoeblack. Thomas had a sister in Bermondsey, where his parents were born, he was born in Kent. They probably did move around for work.
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Excuse my Australian ignorance, but is there really such a difference between north and south of the river?
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Yes
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Excuse my Australian ignorance, but is there really such a difference between north and south of the river?
And notice it's not referred to as The Thames, either.
Nowt so queer as folk. That applies to Londoners also.
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Excuse my Australian ignorance, but is there really such a difference between north and south of the river?
Excuse my English ignorance, but aren't Australians and New Zealanders all the same, really?
It's a bit like that, only more extreme.
Bear in mind that South of the River isn't really London at all ... it's Surrey, and Kent, and Berkshire ...
(There is also an important historical point here, to do with ecclesiastical jurisdiction. London always had its bishop close at hand, and ecclesiastical oversight was tight. Southwark, on the other hand, just across the Bridge (in the days when there was only one bridge) was in the diocese of Winchester. The bishop was very remote, and ecclesiastical oversight comparatively laxer. Therefore the "stews" (or brothels) which served the needs of the citizens of London were all established in Southwark, not London ... where the chances of being cited to answer for sexual immorality in the ecclesiastical courts were very much lower. The ladies of the stews were referred to as "Winchester Geese", because they were not within the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of hte Bishop of London.
Thus Southwark, to the South of the River, was a very much seedier place in the 16th, 17th and 18th centuries than London on the North bank.
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Probably why one of my collateral ancestors was a tanner in Southwark; no-one likely to complain. ::)
And don't compare the Aussies with the Kiwis, they still haven't forgiven the underarm incident!
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;D ;D ;D ;D
And they're two different countries with an ocean between them, not just a river!!
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One day, Jeanne, one day........ ;D
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Before the Ocean between us evaporates, maybe you'll get washed down south a bit, we'll get washed upwards and then our lands will be joined up again, be one country, one nation and then we will rule the world in Rugby, Cricket, Netball, etc etc - and share all the glory! 👍👍👍
Kangaroos will mate with Kiwis, and we will have Kangiwis and Kiwiroos - what a force we would be!
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Of course London was a lot smaller 150 years ago to now, places like Bow and Hackney were on the edges of London, and Bethnal Green was not far from the countryside. But my 2xgreat grandfather was born in south St pancras, near Oxford Street and just below Goodge Street, a good 3 or so miles from the countryside back then, now it is about 12 miles.
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Coombs, that point about the countryside was made clear to me a few months ago when I re-read some of the Sherlock Holmes stories. There was mention about travelling through rural hamlets with names that I know are now part of London.
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My father made this point to me in the late 1980s, by pointing to the names of the inner London railway stations as you travel out of Liverpool street:
Bethnal Green
London Fields
Hackney Downs
I came across a fascinating legal case, not so long ago, from the 1860s, which was all about the commoners' rights of grazing on the Lammas lands in Hackney ...
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Also Lamb-eth, after lambs.
Soho was apparently an old hunting cry.
St Martin in The Fields.
Poplar after the poplar tree.
In 1856 my Soho and Shoreditch born 3xgreat grandparents married in St John Hackney, which was still a semi rural area, many of the nearby areas were brick fields or market gardens with streets springing up round them.
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Same with Birmingham Yardley Fields, Glebe Farm, Acocks Green, kits Green etc.
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Talking of Birmingham, my great grandad was at the Dudley Road hospital for 6 weeks in 1916 after shell shock from service in France. I can easily picture him there during those 6 weeks. A few ancestors siblings ended up in Birmingham.