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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: cp on Sunday 13 March 16 10:03 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help with my brick wall please?
Mary Ellen Stanley was born circa 1881 in Barrow-in-Furness.
1891 - Living with her parents, Clara & George Stanley, Fenton Street, Barrow-in-Furness
Feb 1901 - I have her son's birth cert - Richard Stanley, with no father listed.
They were living at 20 Philip St, Bolton
March 1901- I have found her living with her mother (Clara) and her son Richard Stanley (although he was listed as Clara's son), 20 Philip St, Bolton
1911 - Richard Stanley is living with his grandmother, Clara Stanley in Ainsworth, Bolton.
However Mary Ellen seems to disappear.
We assume that she married a William Owen as her son becomes Richard Stanley Owen and on marrying Sarah Jane Hannah in 1928, whilst both living at 16 Cecilia St, Great Lever, Bolton, he lists his father as William Owen.
I cannot find a marriage for her or a death for her.
Thanks
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I can't find a marriage either to an Owen - but
this is a long shot
Girls could marry at 14 in 1890's and quite a few did
Mary Ellen Stanley - father George - married Thomas Gibbons - father Michael
4th April 1896 St Phillip ,Manchester
so - if that is your mary ellen - SHE WOULD ONLY BE 15 ...
I don't think it is your Mary Ellen - but there is a chance she could be ?
so
is there A MARRIAGE OF
Mary Ellen Gibbons to an Owen ??....maybe at 15 she was too young and Thomas Gibbons left her - she went back to mum and dad - went back to being a Stanley - then gave birth by 1901 census ??
a longshot - but at least if you research this marriage and a possible Gibbons / Owen marriage you can rule it out ....good luck
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Thanks for looking at this for me.
I will do a search for Mary Ellen Gibbons. As you say, probably to rule it out.
I went down the same route with a marriage to Charles Percy Edwards in Oct 1912 in Gorton, Manchester and could not find a further Edwards / Owen marriage.
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have you looked at the marriage in Salford, June quarter of 1904, Mary Ellen Stanley to Robert Owen or Richard Walker ?
Although Richard lists his father as William Owen he may have used a combination of his 'known' father's forename and his step-father's surname, I've certainly seen that before.
Added: On checking Lancashire BMD the groom was definitely Robert Owen & it was Register Office or Registrar attended.
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Thanks for that. It is starting to make sense if you ignore the William Owen bit and assume he was Robert William or something.
I have found 4 children baptised between 1917 & 1926 at the same church as Richard Stanley Owen had his son baptised - St Bartholomew, Great Lever, Bolton, Lancashire - who were all children of a Robert Owen & May Ellen.
They also lived 28 Cecilia Street, Bolton - the same street that Richard Stanley Owen lived on at the time of his marriage in 1928.
I think I will risk ordering that certificate. Thanks
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Robert & Mary Ellen are really elusive :-)
I can't find them on the 1911 census on Ancestry!
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Mary Ellen's birth
Cumbria Birth indexes for the years: 1881
Surname Forename(s) Sub-District Registers At Mother's Maiden Name
STANLEY Mary Ellen Barrow Cumbria Certificate Services HANEY
and parent's marriage
Cumbria Marriage indexes for the years: 1881
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
STANLEY George HANEY Clara St Mark, Barrow in Furness
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lancsann - thank you so much for taking time to help me.
You have in fact stopped me from going down the wrong road. I had found a marriage between a George Stanley and Clara Lewis in Warwickshire (so not far from Clara's birthplace of Dudley) however you have brought me back on track - thanks :-)
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Jomot
Just realised that I already have that certificate and it looks very unlikely as Robert & Mary Ellen live in Pendleton and Mary Ellen's father George (deceased) was a gun fitter, none of which matches anything I have now :-(
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Jomot
Just realised that I already have that certificate and it looks very unlikely as Robert & Mary Ellen live in Pendleton and Mary Ellen's father George (deceased) was a gun fitter, none of which matches anything I have now :-(
So George isn't the George Stanley who died in Barrow in Furness in 1903? If he was working at the Barrow Shipyard he may well have been involved in fitting guns as the company built naval ships there.
Are the witnesses to that marriage of any help?
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I guess if this cert is correct then the George Stanley death in 1903 could be correct. I
Very interesting information about the Naval Ships.
The witnesses don't help sadly, J H Hall and J Chorley
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I have just found George Stanley in 1901 with his parents in Barrow.
This makes sense because he was not with his wife Clara in 1901, she was in Bolton.
I have attached the occupation section of it, which I can't quite read but def' says shipyard
And I can't find him on any 1911 census returns. His wife is shown as a widow on 1911 census return
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Re the baptisms in Bolton, there is a 1910 marriage of Robert Browning Owen and Mary Ellen Makinson - they could be their children.
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The witnesses don't help sadly, J H Hall and J Chorley
There is a James Chorley in Pendleton in 1901 & he's the deputy assistant registrar.
If you can post all of the details from the certificate it might help narrow things down
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Thanks for your help,
I have attached the cert but unfortunately I have to go to bed now.
Chat soon
CP
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Re the baptisms in Bolton, there is a 1910 marriage of Robert Browning Owen and Mary Ellen Makinson - they could be their children.
I don't think its this couple as the baptisms have Robert as being a Driller / Gas Worker / Engineer whereas Robert Browning Owen was an assistant teacher (1939 also has him as a teacher).
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Re the baptisms in Bolton, there is a 1910 marriage of Robert Browning Owen and Mary Ellen Makinson - they could be their children.
I don't think its this couple as the baptisms have Robert as being a Driller / Gas Worker / Engineer whereas Robert Browning Owen was an assistant teacher (1939 also has him as a teacher).
Yes, I posted to show that it wasn't Mary Ellen Stanley
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Well Robert being a professional vocalist certainly threw me, but he turns up with first wife Lizzie & 6-month old son William in 1891.
From there I think I've found his first marriage:
10 Jan 1885. St Jude's, Ancoats, Manchester
Robert Owen, 19, Bachelor, Driller, of 10 Marsh Street. Father: William Owen, Shoemaker
Elizabeth Ann Longworth, 21, Spinster, of 6 Marsh Street. Father: John Longworth, Packer
Witnesses: Thomas & Mary Jane Hammersley
The occupation of Driller certainly fits with the baptisms of the children of William & Mary Ellen Owen, and the name & occupation of his father fit too. But (there's always a but!) .... Ive cross-checked the baptisms against the GRO index and all except one are the children of Robert Owen & Mary Ellen Ward who married in 1914. The only one born to Robert Owen & Mary Ellen Stanley is Marguarite:
Marguarite Owen [Child] of Robert Owen & Mary Ellen [Stanley]
Born: 11 Jul 1917, 22 Jul 1917
Abode: 55 McKean Street
Occupation: Gas Worker
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That's interesting, Jomot.
Where are the family in 1891?
Where is McKean Street ? Is it Bolton?
It is unusual that there is such a gap between marriage and the birth of Marguarita. Perhaps he/they were travelling.
I can see a likely 1901 census for Elizabeth Owen with 4 young sons but can't see anything likely in 1911 indexes. No Robert.
The baptism if the youngest child, Charles, has father as 'Professional'.
There is a death 1902 - Elizabeth Ann Owen.
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Hi Heywood, thanks for joining in on this search, I really appreciate everyone's help on this, you are all very kind.
Jomot, very useful to cross reference the baptisms which I had not thought to do. That just left Marguarite Owen as their child and McKean Street is just a few streets from Cecilia Street, where Richard Stanley Owen (Mary Ellen's first son) was living when he married.
Unfortunately I still think I have the wrong marriage cert for Mary Ellen Stanley as I have just found another Mary Ellen Stanley who was born in Ancoats, Manchester which was to location of Robert Owen's first marriage.
Manchester, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1915
Birth, Baptism & Christening
Name: Mary Ellen Stanley
Mother: Sophia Stanley
Father: George Stanley
Baptism: 6 Feb 1876 - Ancoats, St Andrew, Lancashire
Added - although the age does not quite fit?
Heywood - Mary Ellen Stanley was in Barrow-in-Furness in 1891
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Hi cp,
My question was to Jomot, who found Robert, Lizzie and a six month old William in 1891.
Heywood
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going back to first principles here to try to think outside the box
How did you connect Richard Stanley Owen who married Sarah Hannah with Mary Ellen Stanley please?
Do you know when Richard died?
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His daughter had a copy of his short birth certificate that had been issued in 1955, from that I ordered his full birth cert and it had his mothers name on it - Mary Ellen Stanley.
At his birth he was just Richard Stanley and interestingly someone had written by hand on the short birth cert - Adopted
In 1911 he was living with his grandmother and was still called Richard Stanley.
By the time he married in 1928 he had become Richard Stanley Owen.
He died in Sept 1971 in Bolton
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thank you. It just helps to fill in the background.
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Hi cp,
My question was to Jomot, who found Robert, Lizzie and a six month old William in 1891.
Heywood
Hi Heywood
In 1891 they are at Cotton St, Ashton Under Lyne: 3279/39/18. Looks like a group of 6 professional singers - 3 couples, each with a young child.
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Thanks Jomot :)
That fits with Elizabeth in 1901, one child was born Ashton.
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Manchester, England, Church of England Births and Baptisms, 1813-1915
Birth, Baptism & Christening
Name: Mary Ellen Stanley
Mother: Sophia Stanley
Father: George Stanley
Baptism: 6 Feb 1876 - Ancoats, St Andrew, Lancashire
She may well be the Mary Ellen Stanley aged 20, daughter of George, a labourer, who married Thomas Gibbons in 1896 St Philip, Manchester. They are still in Manchester in 1901 & 1911 with two small children named Thomas & Mary Ellen.
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Just a thought on Marguarite, Roberts mother was Margaret, so possibly named after her but with a 'theatrical flourish' ?
1 Apr 1866 Cathedral & Parish Church, Manchester
Robert s/o William (Shoemaker) & Margaret Owen of Manchester. Born 7 Jan 1866
1871 2 Campbells Court, Elizabeth Street, Manchester
William Owen 29 Head Manchester Shoe Maker
Margaret Owen 27 Wife Manchester, Cotton Operative
Robert Owen 5 1866 Son Manchester Scholar
1881 61 Pott Street, Manchester
Margaret Owen 39 Head Wid Manchester Factory Operative
Robert Owen 15 Son Manchester Glass House (Glass Blower?)
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That does look very likely indeed. I am fairly happy now that this is Robert's family. Thanks for all your research there.
I am not really sure how to go about working out if the Mary Ellen Stanley he married is the one I am looking for?
I just wish I could find them in 1911 to see if it holds any clues. :-( and I still have this niggling concern that Richard Stanley Owen said his father was William Owen on his marriage cert.
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It does look to be the right marriage for Mary Ellen.
My niggle is the 1917 birth so long after the marriage.
There seems to be no trace of Marguarite after her birth.
I think it would be worth checking her birth certificate to verify parental details.
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There is a Marguerite Owen marrying a Herbert Williams in June Qtr 1939 Bolton which looks likely. Not that it helps much.
Mo
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There is a Marguerite Owen marrying a Herbert Williams in June Qtr 1939 Bolton which looks likely. Not that it helps much.
Mo
No, but it could help a bit ;)
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I am tempted to get a copy of Marguerite's birth cert Heywood, but as I am still don't have any real evidence that her mother is the Mary Ellen Stanley I am chasing I am a bit reticent to spend £10 on it yet. We already know her parents names and the address her parents were at when she was born so I am not sure I would gain much from it - or am I missing something?
Hi Mosiefish, thanks for that, I may try and go down that line as there is a slim chance that it would take me to living descendants who may know their family history, I can dream :-)
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I know what you mean! I had forgotten you have birth details.
I have looked on 1939 register where she should be Mrs Williams if it is her but she doesn't seem to be jumping out.
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I wondered about purchasing George's death certificate to see if it mentioned gun fitter or something similar, rather than iron turner. I cant find any newspaper reports of his death unfortunately.
If this is the wrong Mary Ellen then that's two women of the same maiden name, approx. birth year & general location entirely missing from the 1911, but stranger things have happened ::)
Can anyone find Roberts children in 1911?
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:)
Percy Owen birth 4th January 1896 was admitted to Sunning Hill (Rumworth) Board School in 1907.
Parent Robert Owen, 16, German Street.
There is a possible death for Charles- 4 yrs old 1903, Bolton ???
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I have looked on 1939 register where she should be Mrs Williams if it is her but she doesn't seem to be jumping out.
I looked too, then realized that she was born 1917 so has probably been blanked out. ::)
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That looks interesting. Could I ask where you found this?
I have possibly got him on the 1911 census return with his brother Robert? Just to add to the confusion he is a boarder and birth place not known!
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A possible death for Robert in Bolton Mar quarter 1933 aged 66 & Mary Ellen Dec quarter 1948 aged 67 - would be wonderfully helpful if she was described as widow of Robert & the informant was her son Richard ::)
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The schools admission registers on FindMyPast have the info re Percy.
I can't see Mary Ellen in 1939 but the other Robert and Mary E are there. He is a school teacher.
Obviously he is not the Robert who died 1933 but I suppose the Mary Ellen death could be this one :-\
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Thanks for all this. I have just taken out a months subscription for findmypast so will have a look at that heywood.
And I think I am going to risk ordering the death cert for Mary Ellen and fingers crossed it turns out just as you described Jomot ;-)
And thanks for your time mosiefish.
I will report back. I can't thank you all enough for helping me so much!
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Where is Percy living in 1911?
Ignore that. They are mistranscribed in one index but have them in another ::)
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Sorry I am on my tablet and not my computer and I can'tell find the census on this, but I found him in Bolton.
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No, I found them afterwards- amended my post.
No help though!
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No help at all, that is the way this search goes ;-)
I have just ordered the death cert online. I am going away next week so it will be a couple of weeks before we are all put out of our misery.
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I was just going to post!
1948 death is Mary Ellen, wife of Robert Browning Owen, retired schoolmaster - from Will indexes.
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I was just going to post!
1948 death is Mary Ellen, wife of Robert Browning Owen, retired schoolmaster - from Will indexes.
Oh no, I feel terrible now, I should have checked!!
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Oh well, never mind, it will give us further information about her ....and I won't mention it to my husband ;-)
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:)
Percy Owen birth 4th January 1896 was admitted to Sunning Hill (Rumworth) Board School in 1907.
Parent Robert Owen, 16, German Street.
Same school Robert Owen born 18 April 1892, admitted 31 July 05.
Parent William Owen of 16, German Street. ???
Added: just checked baptisms and this DoB matches with the Robert born to Robert & his first wife, Elizabeth ::)
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That's odd, isn't it. cp says Richard gave his father as William on his marriage.
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I was just going to mention that too ..curious indeed
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Am I correct in thinking that it is possible to do an address search on the census through find my past?
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Yes, you can.
I checked earlier though and they were not at that address in 1901 nor 1911. It's worth checking again though - I didn't look for a William.
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Ive checked, not there in 1901 and no return for 1911 unless Ive missed it.
In fact just checked again & I cant find anyone there in 1901 either. Maybe its time for bed....
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Oh well, I am sure they will turn up somewhere, thanks again