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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: ellvera on Thursday 10 March 16 21:23 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I would be grateful if someone could help identify which regiment this soldier belongs to - if indeed it is a uniform?
Thankyou
Barbara
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Any idea of the year it was taken?
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Hope you don't mind, Barbara - but with such a good scan . . hard to resist.
Sorry I can't help with the uniform - (Ooops - didn't notice this isn't the photo board! Sorry)
Wiggy
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Tartan has some similarities to Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders ...
Can you get a close up of the cap badge? I think this looks OK to fit with that theory.
Most jackets are cut away (to fit around a sporran). Someone will be able to tell you more about this I hope as my knowledge on the subject is non-existent. :)
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I stand to be corrected, but the badge looks like The King's Own Scottish Borderers to me.
Jebber
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Or what are the initials on the shoulder board, please?
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A word of caution.
Photographic studios in Edinburgh would have a wardrobe of Scots soldier uniforms, and visitors could get their photo taken to impress people with.
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Thanks Ruskie , Scouseboy and Jebber.
That's very interesting Scouseboy re: the studio uniform.I did wonder that myself.
Sorry I don't know the year -as far as I know we have no Scottish rellies!
Hawick would be on the Scottish border wouldn't it?
A couple of English family members were in service in Hawick,late 1890's, early 1900's but they had no children and the postcards sent don't indicate time out for military service.We were assuming WW1.Will do my best to get a clear image of the cap badge and shoulder.
Wiggy
That is awesome thankyou :) I don't care what board it is on.
Much appreciated
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Looking at the staff(?) he is holding implies his role relates to horses.
BTW, I can see no indication that this is not a genuine soldier in uniform. :(
This man may have been a friend or more distant relative so don't necessarily dismiss him as an imposter. :)
Barbara, is there a photographer's stamp on the photo? If you want this photo dated there are some who can help you if you provide a scan of the entire photo front and back including all edges.
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I wondered if the lack of any insignia of any description, or medals would suggest studio dress-up?
Isn't that just a swagger stick Ruskie? Not necessarily to do with horses?
Wiggy
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The scan I was sent is not much bigger than this photo and doesn't blow up clearly.
My cousin in England has the original,so I will get him to scan at a higher resolution,but there may be a 13 hour delay.
Not much more than that, because he is checking emails from me while eating his cornflakes!
An enthusiastic new recruit ;D
I will also get him to double check the back of the photo for anything,but I doubt it.I have got him fairly well trained by now and if there is,he usually sends a scan of the back ;)
Both people worked at the same place,Bonchester Bridge,I think.
Thanks
Barbara
Just seen your posts Ruskie and Wiggy,but have pretty much answered them already, thanks.Will bear that in mind.
One was a butler and the other a footman,so probably wouldn't have anything to do with horses?
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My dad was posted to Edinburgh in December 1939.
He was in RASC/EFI but he went into a photographic studio and got photos of himself in the uniform of the Black Watch.
It did happen.
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I have trawlled pictures trying to match the tartan with cap badges, without success.
I get the feeling he is genuine, not in studio costume. I don't think dressing up they would have bothered with Puttees.
Jebber
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Good evening,
Argyle & Sutherland Highlanders cap badge and tartan. They wear the Black Watch or government tartan.
Some of the scots regts did get issued with the normal jackets instead of the cut away jacket. Presumably during the war when supplies may have been short. 4th row down on the left is an almost identical picture. http://www.rootschat.com/links/01h8n/
There are a couple of other pictures on there as well showing the same jacket.
John915
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Tartan has some similarities to Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders ...
Can you get a close up of the cap badge? I think this looks OK to fit with that theory.
That looks to be a good call.
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/db/1e/b2/db1eb2a0c648af61d9481b986be30390.jpg
Frank.
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That image is a good fit John. I note that the cap does not have the band though. The soldier in your image also has a wound stripe so maybe that explains any slight differences in uniform.
I also believe that there are various combinations of dress (formal, battle etc) so that is why I think it can be sometimes be difficult to match up exactly Jebber.
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Thankyou again everyone
That is all very interesting.
I did have a similar thought as you Jebber regarding the puttees.
Many thanks John,I will check the link.
I will still get the close -ups of the badge and shoulder initials.
Barbara
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Good evening,
That image is a good fit John. I note that the cap does not have the band though. The soldier in your image also has a wound stripe so maybe that explains any slight differences in uniform.
I also believe that there are various combinations of dress (formal, battle etc) so that is why I think it can be sometimes be difficult to match up exactly Jebber.
I didn't actually look at the hat, I was just looking for that type of jacket on a Scottish soldier. The wound stripe wouldn't make any difference to what type of jacket.
On my link, I notice the pics are all changed around now, the same photo appears again further down but says he is 8th batt. Don't know if that makes any difference to the uniform and cap style.
John915
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No I just meant that if the soldier in the online image had seen action there may have been variations to his uniform - possibly due to serving earlier than the chap in Barbara's picture (who may not have already served - he has no stripes). Something along the lines of how the pockets of the early WW2 army uniforms being different from the later uniforms ... :-\
Variations may also come down to the picture quality and what is not picked up in some as it is in others.
I noticed while browsing that the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders often wore plaid topped socks (not official terminology sorry) ... whereas these don't .... variation of the uniform?
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Why on earth would anybody pay good money to be photographed as a soldier in a uniform to which he had no entitlement? and the bizarre assertion that studios had wardrobes stuffed full of kit, presumably in a whole range of sizes & regiments, for the use of imposters implies that this was common practice and requires some explanation!
Whose relatives would be impressed/conned by any of this nonsense. If the guy is photographed in soldiers uniform he's almost certainly a soldier/sodjer.
Skoosh.
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A real soldier would prefer to be photographed in a more realistic setting, surely?
Next to his or her vehicle, lorry, AFV or awaiting embarkation at Liverpool or Glasgow.
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Good morning,
A real soldier would prefer to be photographed in a more realistic setting, surely?
Next to his or her vehicle, lorry, AFV or awaiting embarkation at Liverpool or Glasgow.
Thousands of soldiers had their photo's taken in studios. Usually close to home, the photo's we see are most likely just part of a series taken alone and with family members. These would then be given to family members who wanted them.
Why on earth would anybody pay good money to be photographed as a soldier in a uniform to which he had no entitlement? and the bizarre assertion that studios had wardrobes stuffed full of kit, presumably in a whole range of sizes & regiments, for the use of imposters implies that this was common practice and requires some explanation!
Whose relatives would be impressed/conned by any of this nonsense. If the guy is photographed in soldiers uniform he's almost certainly a soldier/sodjer.
Skoosh.
I doubt that studios would have all regt's and ranks etc but may have had a few. The photo here is my grandmother but the uniform is not granddads as he was a private for the whole of his service. It had to come from somewhere. Serving soldiers would not i'm thinking risk wearing a uniform and/or rank they are not entitled to. They would be risking punishment to do so.
John915
Added; Neither was he wounded 4 times, none at all in fact.
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Hi, I'm still inclined to go with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, I've tried to enlarge the cap badge.
Frank.
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Why on earth would anybody pay good money to be photographed as a soldier in a uniform to which he had no entitlement? and the bizarre assertion that studios had wardrobes stuffed full of kit, presumably in a whole range of sizes & regiments, for the use of imposters implies that this was common practice and requires some explanation!
Whose relatives would be impressed/conned by any of this nonsense. If the guy is photographed in soldiers uniform he's almost certainly a soldier/sodjer.
Skoosh.
This also crossed my mind. I know they were different times, but especially in WW1 where all able bodied men were expected to join up and do their bit and those who didn't were punished or ridiculed, taking a studio photograph of an "imposter" in a uniform he was not entitled to wear, you would not think would be looked favourably upon.
A real soldier would prefer to be photographed in a more realistic setting, surely?
Next to his or her vehicle, lorry, AFV or awaiting embarkation at Liverpool or Glasgow.
No I don't think so. A formal studio photograph was very common especially as few would have owned a camera to take their own snaps. As John said, formal photos were given to loved ones. This occurred in both WW1 and WW2.
John, do you know the identity of your soldier?
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Why on earth would anybody pay good money to be photographed as a soldier in a uniform to which he had no entitlement? and the bizarre assertion that studios had wardrobes stuffed full of kit, presumably in a whole range of sizes & regiments, for the use of imposters implies that this was common practice and requires some explanation!
Skoosh.
Try to imagine a 24 year old man from Liverpool, England, who found himself in Edinburgh, Scotland in December 1939. He walked past a photographers studio and saw an advert to have your photograph taken in the full regalia of a Black Watch soldier.
All for 2 shillings and sixpence.
Normal tourist activity, surely?
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Hi, I'm still inclined to go with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, I've tried to enlarge the cap badge.
Frank.
It does look that way. It is quite a 'solid' circular shaped badge and it has that little point at the top ....
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Why on earth would anybody pay good money to be photographed as a soldier in a uniform to which he had no entitlement? and the bizarre assertion that studios had wardrobes stuffed full of kit, presumably in a whole range of sizes & regiments, for the use of imposters implies that this was common practice and requires some explanation!
Skoosh.
Try to imagine a 24 year old man from Liverpool, England, who found himself in Edinburgh, Scotland in December 1939. He walked past a photographers studio and saw an advert to have your photograph taken in the full regalia of a Black Watch soldier.
All for 2 shillings and sixpence.
Normal tourist activity, surely?
Possibly a one off specialty (rather than the norm) to persuade Englishmen who saw the uniform as a novelty to part with their hard earned pounds and pence. ;)
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Good afternoon,
Tut tut Ruskie, you didn't read my reply fully, The photo is my grandmother.
She is my maternal grandmother and is with one of her sisters.
I can see the allure of having a photo taken in a kilted uniform. But I think people like that would have gone for the full dress uniform with kilt, sporran, cutaway dress tunic with all it's braid and any other accoutrements and of course the skean dhu.
OHs grandfather had in pride of place on his wall a picture of himself in full dress Seaforths uniform complete with medals. Sussex born and bred but he served with the Seaforths during WW1.
John915
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No I did read your reply John.
You did not say that both were women. I thought your grandmother was the one seated.
I was trying to confirm before suggesting that the "soldier" looked effeminate because they both looked like females. :)
I understand that the uniform did not belong to your grandfather.
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Back again,
That's OK Ruskie, I see where you are with this. My grandfather was profoundly deaf from birth. He joined up with Lowthers Lambs but when they discovered that made him a regt'l cook. He remained a private for the whole war only seeing front line trenches if food had to be taken up to the troops.
Granny's two brothers never got to Sgt either so the uniform she is wearing has to belong to the photographer but I don't believe this was a common or accepted practice.
John915
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Obviously two of these lads were not issued with a cut away jacket so improvised for this picture.
http://uotw.heavenforum.org/t701-scots-of-ww1-with-a-difference
Jen
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Obviously two of these lads were not issued with a cut away jacket so improvised for this picture.
http://uotw.heavenforum.org/t701-scots-of-ww1-with-a-difference
Jen
I like that :)
Frank.
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The soldier in the photograph is in the uniform of Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. The badge in the Glengarry is the badge of that Regiment. It was once known by the nick name the Mess tin as it was once the biggest badge in the Scottish Division. This info comes from an old Argyll and Sutherland Highlander, my Grandfather on my mothers side.
Kind Regards,
Tomscot. :D
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Obviously two of these lads were not issued with a cut away jacket so improvised for this picture.
http://uotw.heavenforum.org/t701-scots-of-ww1-with-a-difference
Jen
I'm not sure Jen. I've seen lots of jackets which do look like that - as though they have been hemmed up.
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Ruskie,
I had no idea such a thing to took place except the man who posted up the photo said that's what had happened. I had a close look and couldn't see any stitching so thought perhaps he was correct.
Jen
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Thank you everyone for your efforts in my absence and apologies for delay in replying.
I received an email from my cousin this morning with the title 'grovelling apology',so I expect you can guess the content of said email.
I now have scans of the entire front and back of the photograph and a higher resolution of the badge,but he has forgotten the shoulder detail.
It did occur to me last night that this soldier could have served in the Boer war rather than WW1 -We haven't been able to find him on the 1901 census of England and Scotland.But I found nothing conclusive.
However,the back of the photo is not blank (despite my lecture on a previous occasion of the importance of copying back and front).It gives not only the photographer's name,but what looks like a negative number.
A quick look on the internet indicates that this photographer had a studio in Edinburgh from 1912,so that discounts Boer War.
Perhaps it was,after all, a dress-up photo.
I will still post his scan of the badge,because I would really like to know if it is Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders.
If this is Great Great Uncle Fred, and it really couldn't be anyone else,he was born in 1874 and would have been 40 in 1914 -would that be too old to enlist?
As far as I know he was in service with the same employer all his working life,near Hawick,so I would have thought Scottish Borderers would have been more obvious.
Where would he have gone to enlist for the Argyll and Southerland?
just to confirm it is him and not a friend,we have another unknown photograph taken in Cambridge,where he was born taken in about 1894 and to me,he does look like a younger version of the soldier.
Not sure how many photos I am allowed to post on one thread,but I will try.
Somehow I don't think he would have taken the trouble to send a photo of a friend back to the family in Kent with no explanation.
He died childless in Scotland and I would assume his wife kept his personal items.The photo was in the collection of a spinster aunt,also the recipient of the postcards.
The puzzle with this is that there are some postcards from 1907 onward,but there doesn't seem to be a significant gap to indicate he was anywhere else in WW1.
Sorry to have wasted a lot of your time,though it is useful for me because if I hadn't relayed the information you gave me,we (or rather,I) would still be looking for a needle in a haystack.
Thankyou
Barbara
PS Thankyou Tomscot -I didn't see your reply until after I posted this.
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Oh dear, I hope they aren't too big!
Here is the badge
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And a photo of the younger man.
I will delete them and try again with smaller versions if too big.
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/the badge certainly seems to match this one doesn't it.
This is described - Cast White Metal cap badge, Argyll and Sugherland Highlanders.
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It does, Wiggy
Now have to work out why he chose that regiment ???
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Wanted to get away from the family?
Wanted some regiment who would take him?
Liked the uniform?
Liked the sound of the regiment's name? (It does have a certain ring to it you have to admit!!)
Was working in the area at the time of enlisting?
Could have been any number of reasons. Maybe :-\
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He was working in Scotland for a Mr T R B Elliot of Harwood,Bonchester, Roxburgh from 1907 at least.So may have been sightseeing in his free time.
There are probably 300 (yes 300) postcards and only half have been scanned.But some are from family members from Kent who went to visit him - I will have to make a timeline to see if he was missing during WW1.
Most are from local family members and of the Dear Mother,arrived safely ,lovely weather type.
He was still working for Mr Elliot when he retired and living on the Estate when he died in 1950.
But there is a gap from 1894 to 1911 and we can't find him on the 1901 census.He married in Norfolk in 1903. I think that was because his wife's family were there,though.
Ah well,we have a story to tell ;D
Thanks
Barbara
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I am pretty sure that your soldier is wearing the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders badge.
I also agree that the young lad and the soldier are one and the same. The eyes are the same pale colour, the face, ears and nose are the same shape ...
I notice the soldier has a cleft chin but this is not clear on the photo of the boy. Are you able to see his chin a little better on the original photo ellvera? Even if it is not evident I still think they are the same person - Great great Uncle Fred. :)
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Stirling Castle was the Argyll's depot but they might have recruited anywhere? the badge has the Campbell boars head & a cat for Sutherland & the monogram for princes Louise.
Skoosh.
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I think they are both the same chap, maybe just a hint of a cleft chin :-\
Frank.
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Thankyou very much everyone
I haven't got the original, Ruskie,but a cleft chin is a family trait,so it's good to know I have the right person and a regiment to follow up
Next step: find him in 1901
Many thanks
Barbara :)