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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: PrueM on Monday 18 July 05 09:22 BST (UK)
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Hello everyone,
I hope you clever folk can give me some ideas about what profession my 4x-g-grandfather, [Sidney] George INGRAM might have followed? (We're not sure on the "Sidney" yet)
This is the only picture we have of him, and is obviously a photographic reproduction of an engraving in a book - you can see that it's a line engraving and that there is a seam down the middle where I assume the pages met (if you have any other ideas as to what this mark might be, I'd love to hear from you!)
His accoutrements suggest that he is a learned man, but we can't get further than that. Two of his sons became schoolteachers, at least one with a University education, so could he have been one too? What about the clergy? We have checked the CofE database but as far as we know, his sons were Catholic - assume he wasn't a priest!
Any clues from anyone?
Would love to hear from you!!
Thanks for having a look
Prue
Sorry, should have said, we think he would have been alive from about 1780 onwards. Sons born 1811 and 1819.
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Don't think the book is particularly significant. Many photographers used props to give an impression to the viewer.
The line could be seen as a cane of some sort, so maybe he was a schoolmaster.
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Hi Nessie,
I don't think the line is a cane, because where it passes through the book, the two bits of book are out of alignment. That's why I thought the picture itself was out of a book.
You're right about the book as a prop though, I reckon. Thanks for taking an interest!
Prue
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Been thinking about the photo whilst I was walking the dog. I had noticed the white piece that was away from the book. But coming back and relooking, there doesn't seem to be any of the book missing. That looks like a finger on the top of the white piece and it seems in proportion to the rest of the hand. Looking at the left hand there is what looks like a ring on the second finger, although it is well towards the hand if it is a ring and not a mark on the photo. My best guess is that he is a professional man, a teacher or a lawyer.
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Is something missing do you think? Looking at where the line is, there is only a small piece of the photo on the other page. Maybe there was someone else on the photo when it was in a book. Any idea what book it was in? there must have been a reason for his presence in the book.
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Hi Nessie,
Thanks for thinking while walking, that's more than I can manage when I'm out with my dogs !! ::)
We have no idea what the book was that this picture came from - if it came from a book at all. The picture as we have it now is on photographic paper so it's obviously a copy of a print. I've posted a copy that I photoshopped to join the two pieces together - as you can see now there is just a book and the guy's finger.
Hmmm....still doesn't really help though does it!
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My vote would be that he's an industrialist, something like a mill owner. Biopic's of local companies would contain pictures of the mill and the principals and were often engravings. he would have been able to afford an education for his sons.
Have you tried looking for the baptism of the sons? Almost certainly the occupation of the father of a child would be recorded.
Have you found his death. If post 1837 certificate would say something like <Mill Owner-Retired>. Might also record his occupation on the church Burial Register. regards. Keith
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Prue,
where do you think he lived? He was clearly well off from what you have said, so the chances are that there are other records that will refer to him. He may be in one of Piggotts Directories of the 1830s or a Poll Book for example. Once you have a bit more background, then it will be easier to follow up on what he was.
Rod
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Thank you everyone for your help and suggestions so far. I'm sorry I didn't say where Sidney/George INGRAM was from etc...but really we don't know yet. Here's what I have:
We have a suspicion that he is the George INGRAM who married Ann ANDREWS in Horton-with-Woodlands, Dorset in 1808.
We know from the 1841/51 census that his son Joseph Henry INGRAM was born in Woodlands, Dorset in 1811, but haven't come up with any concrete evidence of baptism for Joseph yet. In all the other census returns, Joseph gives place of birth as Bath, Somerset. This is where his brother Samuel Frederick was born in 1819. We have no baptism information for Samuel, either.
Joseph Henry INGRAM's marriage has not yet been found. We suspect he married in France where his first few children were born. Thus no parent names in that regard as of yet.
Samuel Frederick INGRAM's marriage certificate in 1850 states that his father George INGRAM was a clerk. There's no "deceased" after George's name, so I assume he was still alive at that date.
And that, folks, is that. :(
Keith, I was interested particularly in your idea that the picture might be from an industrialist's magazine or yearbook - I had not even entertained the idea of him being involved in industry, but of course it is definitely a consideration. I will have to ask on the relevant county boards for some directory lookups - although what the relevant boards would be I have no idea. I guess Dorset and Somerset would be good places to start.
If anyone has any more ideas, please hit me with them - I need all the help I can get!!
Many, many thanks to all of you :-*
Prue
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More thoughts....do you think the fact that he has a ring on his little finger and one on his ring finger on the left hand has any significance?
Prue
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Could be someone else is researching your family http://www.bakery.co.uk/sandd/sdname12.htm#sni
Brought it to your attention because it seems the names of Francis Ingrams children include a Samuel George and William.
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GenesReunited have quite a few entries for George Ingram from 1785 to the early 1800s, saying Dorset, Somerset and Bath. Have you checked them? may be a clue there for you.
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Great Nessie, thanks! I will definitely follow that up, could be a connection there - who knows? The names are familiar, for sure.
Prue
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Thanks also for the GenesReunited alert - I haven't been on that site for a while now, and in looking at the George Ingrams I see there are a couple there that I haven't check out, so thank you again! :)
Prue
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Dog walk time again, will see if any more ideas come to mind ;D
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Hi Prue
Fascinating thread!
don't know that there would be much heavy industry in Dorset at the time, but you could try this site for his occupation:
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/
kind regards, Arranroots ;)
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Hi Prue,
I have just come across this thread.
Looking at your picture, it seems to me EITHER, that it cannot be of the man you think it is OR, that your 1780's date is not correct.
Assuming the man in the picture to be between 40 and 50 years of age, then, judging by his costume, hair, clean-shaven upper lip, and beard ---- my guess is that the earliest he was born was about 1815 to 1820.
He does give the impression of being a clergyman. Too emaciated to have been an industrialist or businessman of the period : and too other-worldly looking to be a lawyer.
Early photographs almost as a rule feature one or more books -- intended to show that the subject was literate. HOWEVER ! Engravings , particularly portrait engravings mounted in books, did not do so for the obvious reason that the subject invariably was literate.
In your instance, I think the inclusion of the book indicates a connection between the man and the book --- or books in general. An Author, Poet, or Clergyman perhaps ?
PERCY
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Hi Prue
Where did he live? When did he die?
Jane
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Perhaps he could have been a M. P. [politician)looks like one from that era.very smartly dressed inteligent looking pos with money.
Jim
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Perhaps he could have been a M. P. [politician)looks like one from that era.very smartly dressed inteligent looking pos with money.
Jim
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Thanks all for taking an interest in this thread, I'm loving all the suggestions, the more the merrier!!
Unfortunately we know very little about this fellow. All we have is this photo of an engraving, and his name on his son's marriage certificate. We believe he would have been born probably 1780-1790. One son was born in 1811 in Woodlands, Dorset, and another in 1819 in Bath, Somerset. We don't know why they moved around like this.
Prue
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Thought I would mention that CLERK as
a profession can mean a member of the CLERGY
I wonder if the book is a bible.
Jinks
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Prue
Believe this might be first time you have mentioned you got his name from his son's marriage certificate. Surely that would have had fathers occupation on it?
Keith
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The marriage certificate had the occupation of Clerk as Prue has already daid. But she has also stated that both the sons were of the catholic religion which wouldn't tie in with their father being a clergyman.
How do you know the photo is of their father Prue?
Maybe he was a member of some society such as the Forresters, Masons etc and that is why his photo was in a book of some sort.
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Widower's tend to move their wedding rings in such away, to show they where once married, yet still faithfull to the memory of a late wife.
He could have been an industrialist?, or lay preacher, but it was common for for self-employed men to dress such a way, Inn Keepers, Bailiffs,etc
Regards
eribus
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Hello Prue,
Its PERCY again. I'm going to be dogmatic about this subject.
(1) Your engraving was done Circa 1860-1865 --- compare the portrait of President Lincoln of the same period. That means, as I said before, this chap cannot have been born before 1815-1820.
(2) He is not 'just any old person'. Even poor quality engravings of the kind seen in publications of the time were expensive. Your engraving is an excellent, high quality, COSTLY, portrait of a well dressed man with a gold (?) watch and chain, wedding(?) ring, and (possibly) a signet(?) ring. A man decidedly of the relatively leisured, learned, and relatively affluent classes.
(3) Unlike photographs, when objects (eg.the book) were shown in engraved or oil portraits, they were put there to indicate the occupation, interest, or 'claim to fame' of the individual concerned : NOT mere literacy.
(4) Your man, therefore, CANNOT be the man you thought he was, but MAY be one of the two sons ? He is the right age for that.
Whoever he is, he was probably a scholar, an author or a poet. Extremely unlikely to have been a
lawyer -- because they were invariably shown as such ---- nor likely to have been engaged in industry.
He could, just possibly have been engaged in some way in politics --- possibly in one of the reform
movements of the time.
PERCY
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Hi Percy,
YOu can be as dogmatic and pedantic as you like!!! It all helps! ;D
In answer to your questions:
1) I believe your date MAY be possible, but until I see a better scan of the photograph I'm not willing to say. It looks like a combination print to me, with line engraving for the majority but some kind of aquatint or mezzotint for the face. I'm also trying to date his clothes and hairstyle but being a bit older it's going to be difficult...he may not have been up with the latest fashions but at least I can probably find a date that he can't be BEFORE.
2) I had always thought that having an engraving of oneself was not usual, and particularly one that seems to have come out of a book. Perhaps there was money in the family back then (where is it now?? :-\ )
3) V interested to read this, I hadn't considered it before but I think you are right
4) It is certainly possible that this is NOT the father of Joseph and Samuel, but a brother. There is the anomaly of the name - we have "George" on Samuel's wedding cert, but "Sidney George" on the back of this photo.
There is a striking similarity between this fellow and the photo I have of Joseph Henry INGRAM (his son or brother) taken in about 1865. They have very similar faces. The fact that this photo of Joseph, plus one of his wife and daughter taken the same day, is correctly identified on the back, makes me hopeful that the identification of the mystery occupation photo is also spot on. I've attached both photos again so you can see the similarity. One thing that strikes me when comparing the two though, is the different styles of the coats they are wearing - the collars are very different, aren't they?
Thank you so much for your input and ideas. It is all food for thought!
Prue :D
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This may be a bit wide of the mark, but here is another thought.
In the 1840s a James Ingram DD (Doctor of Divinity) was President of Trinity College Oxford. If this was a reasonable well to do family, could this Ingram be a relative? Is it possible that the picture is of a respected Uncle for example? The picture is the kind of thing that would not be thrown away and the identity of the original could become clouded over the years ("that's grandad's brother" a generation away is recalled as "that's grandad")
Just a thought, but it opens up more options and issues!
Good luck
Rod
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Thanks all of you for your wonderful help and great suggestions. :-*
I think the conclusions I can now draw are:
1. This is unlikely to be the father of my 3xg-grandfather, but more likely a brother. This is based on the fact that I believe (thanks to Roger Vaughan's great website!! http://www.rogerco.freeserve.co.uk/) the engraving (which this is a photographic copy of) was in turn done as a copy of a photograph - if this was my 4xg-grandfather, he would have to have been at least 70 when the photo was taken (considering when photography became widely available) and the fellow in the picture is not that old.
2. The person in the picture was most probably a man of learning, and/or a member of the clergy or a minister of religion such as Methodism.
3. The person was important enough to have an engraved portrait done, probably for inclusion in a book or pamphlet of some kind (explaining the seam which runs through the book in the picture).
Other than that...no definitive conclusions! But I have come a long way to understanding this picture, and it's all thanks to my Rootschat friends, so consider yourselves well and truly thanked!
Prue ;D
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The only engraving of my ancestors I have come
across was Thomas Mercer of Lee house(I will have to say whether the portrait is actually him is in dispute)
Though Thomas was Catholic he was a religious
man the founder of a Catholic Church. i.e. He granted land for the church to be built.
Jinks.
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Just a couple of thoughts;
If it is an engraving from a book it would not have a binder's mark on it in the photograph bit. They were bound as a page, not folded, unless they were too big (maps or panoramas etc).
Have you not found his will? This could well give you the information you require.
It is very unlikely that the photograph from which the engraving was taken from was taken before 1860, so the subject ought to be 70 if he is who you think.
Have you compared the handwriting on the back of this one with the others you have mentioned? Is it the same hand?
Finally, why not start again, putting down all you know about the man in question and researching him first. Putting more flesh on him may well help in finding more about the photo as an aside. Dont waste time with ifs buts and maybes. Research is the key!
Best wishes.
Teddybear
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I can't remember what entry it was but a post to you mentioned the possibility of two rings on the left hand (my vote goes for that)..the wedding and pinkie fingers respectively. I'm just a farm boy so I'm afraid I'm not too up to date with fashion :-[ although we do turn a pretty ankle in mid calf length wellies.
When did the fashion for the pinkie ring come in? Did it have any particular significance as opposed to today, and was there a section of society's sub-culture that wore it?
I personally believe it was a BIG statement to be making at the time.
Just a thought while walking the hogs.
Rog ;D ;D
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Thanks Rog, you might be onto something there...maybe walking in all that fertile mud is making your brain grow!! ;D
I will do some research into the fashion of ring-wearing for gents, and see what I can fathom.
Prue
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Hi,
The book is probably his personal pocket book of the "Daily Light", which was a devotional text book, each page gave a chapter of the bible, e.g. "The Spirit Helpeth Our Infirmities".. the Lord is my shepherd ROM.8.26. His being able to read shows his parents must have had money to be able to send him to school after the age of 10 or 12 yrs old. The ring on the little finger should be a signet ring given by parents when a son reaches his majority. which nowadays would be 18th birthday but used to be 21 in the 20th century and 25 in the 19th century. The jacket is of far better quality than any of my family wore in photographs.
Rena
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Wow, thanks Rena! I had no idea about the signet ring, and our man is definitely over 21 ;D so that would make sense. Can I ask what made you think of that particular book, and whether you think it would be of significance to his profession, or just a prop for the photo?
Thank you! :)
Prue
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Hi Prue,
I'm looking at a similar pocket book which was passed down through my husband's line. Generally, it's not significant to his profession, but shows that he (and probably his family) were deeply religious people. I don't think a photographic prop would be as 'thumbed through'. The other portrait told a story through the very fashionable clothes the man was wearing - "look at me - I'm a successful man". By the way - the 'stitches' going up through the portrait look like a walking cane to me. My grandfather had 6 canes of varying thicknesses & designs for all seasons and reasons.
If you think this man studied theology/divinity at a university (such as Edinburgh Uni) have you thought the ring might be a college ring?
Cheers,
Rena
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Wow, thanks Rena! I had no idea about the signet ring, and our man is definitely over 21 ;D so that would make sense. Can I ask what made you think of that particular book, and whether you think it would be of significance to his profession, or just a prop for the photo?
Thank you! :)
Prue
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Hi Rena,
I originally thought the line through his hand was a cane too, but then I realised that the book was out of whack, and once I'd straightened it out in photoshop (see pics) I thought about why this would have been the case. The only thing I could think of was that this was a photograph of an engraving out of a book or pamphlet, and was in two parts which were joined at the binding. I haven't been able to come up with any other explanation for it.
Cheers
Prue
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I don't know what county your Ingram family is from - but have you searched this catalogue? There's plent to choose - from priests to clerk to the guardians.
http://www.a2a.org.uk/
Rena
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Hi Rena and folks,
Just seen the website you suggested....very good!!
Sorry for jumping in.
Rog
Glasgow Scotland.