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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: seelig on Sunday 21 February 16 10:06 GMT (UK)
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Many moons ago I was married to a Seelig I have kept the name as I have children and there was no need to change it. I did start a family search but it seems that the family members who have now gone did not approve ...strange isn't it. Anyway here I am again I have found an EMMA SEELIG in the 1901 census at the age of 62 and it gives birthplace as Germany underneath British Subject. I believe she was sent out of the way to England mid nineteenth century and having had the child George Seelig she died a spinster.
I have found a death EMMA ALINA SEELIG Dec Qu 1906 Uttoxeter age 68 birth year 1868 SORRY 1838 correction.... 6B 235 240..............When I did this before I am sure I discovered a will and where she was buried and these are two things I would like to find. Also how could I find her parents and date of birth,,,it would be amazing for my family to know where their roots have come from Thanks for your expert help
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If she was single and born in Germany but a British subject then it's possible that her father was British.
1906 SEELIG Emma Aline of Bromley Hurst Abbots Bromley Staffordshire spinster died 5 October 1906 Probate Lichfield 29 October to George Seelig farmer Effects $1467 10s 7d.
https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate
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http://en.geneanet.org/fonds/individus/?size=10&sourcename=&nom=seelig&ignore_each_patronyme__0__=&prenom=&prenom_operateur=or&ignore_each_prenom__0__=&place__0__=&zonegeo__0__=United+Kingdom&country__0__=®ion__0__=&subregion__0__=&place__1__=&zonegeo__1__=&country__1__=®ion__1__=&subregion__1__=&place__2__=&zonegeo__2__=&country__2__=®ion__2__=&subregion__2__=&place__3__=&zonegeo__3__=&country__3__=®ion__3__=&subregion__3__=&place__4__=&zonegeo__4__=&country__4__=®ion__4__=&subregion__4__=&type_periode=between&from=&to=&go=1
UK Seelig familytrees
over 3,100 familytrees on www.geneanet.org
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one tree has
Emma Seelig b 1839 Abbotts Bromley ,Staffordshire....any connection ??
ADDED ...You have the birth date wrong on your post ...the Abbotts Bromley Emma is the one you are looking for
this death record states born 1838 - died 1906 ....you have born 1868 ....Emma Alina Seelig as follows
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NBZ-ZZ2
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George the Farmer is on 1911, but you will have to carry out the search for yourself (Rootschat/copright rules)
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This post says born Frankfort but no guarantee that's correct-
http://www.genealogy.com/forum/surnames/topics/seelig/44/
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Have you considered getting the son's marriage certificate(s) to see if he claims any Father?
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An online tree claims Emma's parents were Joseph Seelig (born 1810 Dusseldorf) & Franziska Hatry (born 1814 Homborg) married 1838 Dusseldorf which ties in to these records-
marriage (1838) https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JH98-DVQ
daughter Emma born 1841- https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NZK5-WVK
daughter Mathilde- https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5MF-B94
daughter Louise- https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NZYS-G2J
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Ancestry has her as Felig born in 1844, Frankfurt, in 1881, and Selig born 1888 Germany in 1891 censuses.
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Thank you for all these great answers WONDERFUL I am just going to go through them again SO SORRY for the typing error YES birthdate is 1838. I am going to recheck the info very kind of you guys to give me your time
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I have some information copied and will paste here it is from a link the member aghardowey has posted.... This is a glimpse into the life of Emma Aline Seelig.........Emma Aline Seelig born about 1838 Frankfurt, germany.Do not know when she came to England, but had a son george Seelig in Boothhurst Staffordshire, son stayed in and around Abbots Bromley all his life. Emma was ladies maid in london, found in 1881 & 1891 census living with Lionel louis Cohen and family- his wife Esther's Ladies Maid. Does anyone know anything about her background?
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Just remember that the Emma Seelig born 1841 Germany may not be the one you are looking for- it's quite common for people with online trees to attach a person with the same or similar name to their own tree :-\
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garstonite thankyou for the help with the wrong birthdate very kind of you yes she was definitely in ABBOTS BROMLEY
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If George was a farmer this could have been their residence ...Oaklands Farm, Pinfold Lane, Bromley Hurst, Abbots Bromley.....wonderful to find out about their life Thanks I will keep reading your posts to see what else I can discover
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You will need to follow up that 1911 search to put a smile on your face.
::)
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GRRRR EEEEEEK Ray I have to go out ....that is a very tantalising post and I can do nothing about it until I return cant wait TEE HEE
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1931 SEELIG George of Chesterton-terrace Abbots Bromley Staffordshire died 6 March 1931...
You can view Chesterton Terrace, Baggot St., Abbots Bromley here-
https://www.houser.co.uk/chesterton-terrace,-bagot-street,-abbots-bromley,-rugeley-ws15-3db-p3361764
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For your notes pile . . . . .
1881 9 Hyde Park Terrace, Marylebone Paddington
RG11 16 27 page 3
[ in the home of Lionel L Cohen (Stock Exchange Member) ]
Emma Felig (?Selig?) 37 (Unm) Ladies Maid b Germany (Frankfurt - I think it says)
Ray
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Tracing your childrens' paternal line back to here is a simple task of FreeBMD regs [ provided by pm ]
1901 RG13 2634 28 page 5
Oaklands, Abbots Bromley Uttoxeter
George Seelig Head Wid 37 Farmer b Rugeley
George Albert Seelig 3 Abbots Bromley
Amy Seelig 15 b Abbots Bromley
Edith A Charlesworth STEP-dau 19 b Uttoxeter
Emma Seelig MOTHER Wid 62 L.o.o.m. Germany Brit.Subj
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Is George's birth the one in Lichfield Reg. as George SEELEY June Qtr 1863? From Staffs BMD mmn is also SEELEY.
Maureen
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Hi Maureen
(I haven't checked that yet)
Knowing a little of Helen's history . . . . .
This may very well be true (giving the 1901 census mentioned)
Marriage Mar 1920 Blackburn 8e 870 George A Seelig / Gladys A Smith
Births Dec 1897 Uttoxeter 6b 351 George Albert Seelig
Ray
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Giving rise to the interesting Charlesworth involvement
and the re-marriage (?) a little later.
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The 1931 probate record gives George Seelig's address as Chesterton Terrace, Abbots Bromley which is Rugeley according to the property link I posted earlier.
A FreeBMD search for George Seelig shows
marriage (1884 Uttoxeter) to Elizabeth Ann Charlesworth
birth of son George Albert (1897 Uttoxeter)
marriage (1903 Lichfield) to Sarah Ann Sammons
death (1931 Uttoxeter) age 67 so born c1864
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
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I like this (filling in a gap)
Marriage Dec 1903 Lichfield 6b 829 George Seelig / Sarah Ann Sammons
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If George was a farmer this could have been their residence ...Oaklands Farm, Pinfold Lane, Bromley Hurst, Abbots Bromley.....wonderful to find out about their life Thanks I will keep reading your posts to see what else I can discover
Is there any basis for connecting George Seelig to this particular property or is it just theat the farm is in the general area?
http://www.farminguk.com/images/upload/1026201437417AM_fsgrps-MOB130221.pdf
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Reply #19 1901 onwards is Oaklands
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This may explain 1901
Death Mar 1899 Uttoxeter 6b 247 Elizabeth Ann Seelig
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1891 RG12 2194 27 page 2
Bromley Hust, Abbots Bromley
George Seelig 27 Head M Farmer bRugeley
Elizabeth Ann 29 Wife M Yoxall?
Edith Ann dau 9 Uttoxeter
Amy Ellen dau 5 Abbots B
Hannah Elizabeth dau 3 Abbots B
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Very difficult to tell about Emma's birth/parents,etc. since she never married.
Has anyone caught her in 1871? :)
George is with a BENTLEY family (Lewis and Hannah) in 1871 A*try as George SEALEY.
In 1881 he's George BENTLEY (still with Lewis and Hannah) Grange Farm Abbots Bromley.
Hannah BENTLEY dies March 15 1896-(on A*try Probate*) as of the Oaklands Bromley Hurst.
Maureen
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Hi Maureen
The original, not the transcription, says Seelig
1871 RG10 2919 2 page 3
Lewis Bentley 63 Farmer 80 acres Bishton
Hannah Bentley 56 b Armitage
William Bentley 35 Farmer's son Ridware(?)
George Seelig 7 Boarder b Armitage
Ray
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OK I am trying very hard to process all this ...... so I will read and then ask a question first one to Ray two posts back you have listed a census for 1901 is this really 1891 because of the ages and Hannah died 1896 There is a child listed here a Hannah Elizabeth aged 3 she seems to be missing off the 1901 census do we presume she has died bless her...... Maureen thank you for all the information where do the Bentleys come into the equation please ...did George move in with them sorry just trying hard to take it all in OK
I will go back and look at the rest its very intriguing I remember a question about the farm I am on a farm it is wonderful to see they may have lived on a farm Going to reread and absorb Thank you EVERYBODY who has posted you really are the most wonderful bunch of people I am trying hard to grasp it ALL
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Thanks for your last post ray I will write that down and I see your census is 1891 sorry
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;D Caught! ;D
I'd spotted that I had incorrectly copied 2x refs and changed them.
Was gonna go public on the next post.
[ Nice to know that some people actually read what we write ]
R
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Re The Bentleys
I have known a situation where a friend of mine was taken in by a farmer who treated the (unrelated) boy as his own.
Eventually, the old fellow died and left the farm to my pal [ and he is still there ]
If the the farm that the Bentleys are on turns out to be Oakland Farm . . . . .
R
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In passing, there is a tree [ @ncesterry ] noting that Emma's father was a Joseph (b Germany).
I haven't spotted any proof, anyone?
Ray
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I have just found little Hannah she died 1899 and I have just lit a candle for her its very very sad when it is a child just 12 years old.....Seelig Hannah Elizabeth 12 Uttoxeter 6b 226
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I would like to know of any documents that spell out her middle name I have the spelling as EMMA ALINA SEELIG but I have only seen her called this on her death record. I am wondering how her name is spelt in her will as that surely should be a document that she would have been on hand to have given the correct spelling?
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I am going to check the lead of Joseph Seelig Germany on the chance he may prove to be her father Thanks Ray
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In passing, there is a tree [ @ncesterry ] noting that Emma's father was a Joseph (b Germany).
I haven't spotted any proof, anyone?
Ray
I am going to check the lead of Joseph Seelig Germany on the chance he may prove to be her father Thanks Ray
I've already mentioned an online tree which lists parents as well as links to possible family in German records- see reply #7
I would like to know of any documents that spell out her middle name I have the spelling as EMMA ALINA SEELIG but I have only seen her called this on her death record. I am wondering how her name is spelt in her will as that surely should be a document that she would have been on hand to have given the correct spelling?
Spelling has only become standardised in fairly recent years. The German name Aline would be pronounced as Alina which would explain the different versions. Emma may have merely written and signed her Will as Emma Seelig but the probate reference would be more likely to show full name
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Hi aghadowey
Your reply #7 (#8?) "An online tree" . . . . . (your post) I was repeating to remind people that it could be used as a start (no point in wasting your good research). I'd just prompted where I had found it. My habit I'm afraid of pointing to (some) refs to save others re-doing the searches.
The specification of middle names (& birth dates) are always doubtable because there is a high chance of people registering the death not knowing the personal details ( eg Drs/etc/neighbours/boarders/distant rellies).
Yup, Aline/Alina likely to be fairly accurate.
As a Londoner, I'm struggling a little with the geography of "Staffs", even worse Germany.
???
Ray
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Since the Bentley seem to come into this saga...
Lewis Bentley (c1808-1887) married (19 Jan.1835 Mavesyn, Ridware, Staffs) Hannah Hackett (c1815-1896)
1851- 27 acres
1861- 120 acres?
1868- Seedcroft, Abbots Bromley, Rugeley
1871- 80 acres
1881- Grange Farm, 62 acres
1896 BENTLEY Hannah of the Oaklands Bromley Hurst Abbot's Bromley Staffordshire widow died 15 March 1896 Probate Lichfield 28 April to Isaac Kent gentleman and Joseph Barker carpenter Effects £769 14s 4d.
Only 1 son found-
William Bentley (c1836-1880)
1881 BENTLEY 24 March. The Will of William Bentley late of the Grange Farm Bromley Wood in the Parish of Abbot's Bromley in the county of Stafford farmer who died 14 November 1880 at the Grange Farm was proved at Lichfield by Hannah Bentley (Wife of Lewis Bentley) of the Grange Farm the mother one of the Executors. Personal Estate under £300
In 1871 George Seelig (age 7, boarder) is born Armitage (as is Hannah Bentley)
1881 George, age 17, is listed as George Bentley, son
Probably not a co-incidence that George named one of his daughters Hannah
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Padding out . . . . .
1881 RG11 2751 / 40 / page11
Grange Farm, Bromley Park, Abbots Bromley
Lewis Bentley 72 Head Farme 62acres 1 lab Bishton
Hannah Bentley 65 Wife Armitage
George Bently Son 17 Armitage
(x?) Sanders 40 Servant Abbots Bromley
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As a Londoner, I'm struggling a little with the geography of "Staffs", even worse Germany.
The Bentleys were in an area about halfway between Stafford (to the west) and Burton upon Trent (to the east) with Uttoxeter to the north and Lichfield to the south.
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;D I bow to your directions ;D
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. . . . . so much so, that I found Grange Farm on the map
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01h42/
Ashbrook Lane / Pinfold Lane
WS15 3ag
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01h41/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01h41/)
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. . . . . and the beautiful "Oaklands" in Pinfold Lane
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01h40/ (http://www.rootschat.com/links/01h40/)
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Still speculation but there's a family tree for Joseph Seelig- no wife and children listed:
www.geni.com/people/Joseph-Seelig/6000000032021346011
Mathilde Seelig born 27 Mar.1839 (as per index but not on record)-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N5MF-B9W
Added- this is NOT the Mathilde Seelig who married Ferdinand Ahorn and lived in London,
Louisa Seelig born 23 Mar.1848 (as per index but not on record) married (1870 Munster) Isaac Levi Weinberg (born 13 Jan.1840)-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JHW8-DML
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NRKW-KM9
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Thank you all for your posts it is taking me a while to process this all so that I know which way I need to go now. There are a few complications and I am sure once I have it on paper it will all become a lot clearer. Lovely to see the home Ray and know that George would have had a good life with the Bentleys that makes me very happy.
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I would recommending getting hold of the wills of William Bentley (d. 1880, possible father) and Hannah Bentley d. 1897. The people to whom probate was granted are not necessarily the same as the beneficiaries of the wills, and Emma, George, or both may be mentioned.
Sometimes, 'natural' children are made specific reference to in wills. Or he may be listed as 'adopted' - there wasn't government-regulated adoption as we think of it but unofficial adoption was not uncommon, and it seems that the Bentley's cared for him over a long period of time + possibly left him an inheritance.
You can search for wills/probates and order online: https://www.gov.uk/search-will-probate
(note: if an entry says 'administration' granted there was no will and ordering the full record will not provide much info - if it says 'probate' granted there's a will and you can get a copy of it).
It would also be worthwhile getting the birth certificate of George - the "Seeley" entry mentioned upthread seems to be him. Possibly that will give you a better idea to Emma's middle name(s)? It might also confirm if she was living with the Bentley's at the time, or if not where she was resident.
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For your notes pile . . . . .
1881 9 Hyde Park Terrace, Marylebone Paddington
RG11 16 27 page 3
[ in the home of Lionel L Cohen (Stock Exchange Member) ]
Emma Felig (?Selig?) 37 (Unm) Ladies Maid b Germany (Frankfurt - I think it says)
Ray has posted this so just posting to show that this could well have been the EMMA SEELIG and she could have left George in the care of the Bentleys....so this could have been where she was resident
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Questions I am asking myself ....did Emma come to England and live with the Bentleys as a maid...she did seem to have enough money left in her will to say that she wasn't from humble beginnings could she have managed to save that money ....1400 approx..... over her life time or did she in fact inherit it from her family. She stayed in England with George in her later years as she was on the 1901 census this was after the death of Georges wife and Emma was probably a help with the children the youngest being George A who was only 3 in this census.
Edith A Charlesworth is also on this 1901 census shown as a stepdaughter and would have been born to Elizabeth Charlesworth when she was 20 years old. Then at the age of 22 she married George Seelig 1884.
I have wondered why it named the place of birth for both Hannah Bentley and George Bentley as Armitage in the 1871 census was this a slip by whoever was giving the information as in the 1901 census with George the head of the household the place of birth is named as Rugeley Staffs ....so I will be looking at the maps today to see if these are in fact the same or very near places.
The Bentleys own son William died in 1880 and the year after this in the census 1881 George Seelig was named as George Bently.... yes the e was missing.... and described as son......was this a recognition that he had become their son as he had resided with them for most if not all of his life. Did Emma have a relationship with the son of the Bentleys and was he actually a family member so he would have actually been the Bentleys grandson..... I think the ages of Lewis Bentley are perhaps too far out to think that it was his son with Emma .....these are only conjectures as of course I can never find out all the answers .
I have found the families of Amy E Seelig up to present day and this is pleasing to see that one of his daughters married and had children. This Seelig family certainly had its twists and turns I have not found a birth for George Seelig born 1864 approx unless I have missed it in the posts so I will be rechecking that today.
The most interesting piece of information is the addition of the Bentley family which was initially mentioned by Maureen that was such a step forward and it has helped me to understand where George grew up and I thank you dearly for your time and expert searching.
Indeed I thank every poster here that has helped to put the life of George Seelig together and if I ever take a jaunt out there to talk to the locals and get some more information or I speak to a living family member I will post it on here..
One question is in the 1901 census that Ray added which was slightly different in words to the one I found does it state WID for widow after Emmas name and what does the Loom mean has anyone any idea please......Emma Seelig MOTHER Wid 62 L.o.o.m. Germany Brit.Subj. I am almost sure from my sad memory that the word spinster was mentioned in her will and that is where it has come from that she was never married but I will certainly look for any proof that she did marry at some time Thanks
Always searching for the truth
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One question is in the 1901 census that Ray added which was slightly different in words to the one I found does it state WID for widow after Emmas name and what does the Loom mean has anyone any idea please......Emma Seelig MOTHER Wid 62 L.o.o.m. Germany Brit.Subj
The census actually says 'living on own means'- in other words, she had some sort of private income.
One interesting thing (which may link her as a daughter of Joseph Seeling & Franziska Harty) is the employer she's with in 1881.
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aghadowey..... Thanks for the loom ... it will save me trying to find a place in Germany called that.....do you think the WID is just someone thinking she was a widow ...... your suggestion in your post is an interesting one I shall follow up as soon as I get home ...thank you for your time ...
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1901? I see no difference except for the use of an abbreviation.
Confirmed "l.o.o.m." = "Living on own means"
( apologies if the abbreviation is only used amongst "my lot" )
One question is in the 1901 census that Ray added which was slightly different in words to the one I found does it state WID for widow after Emmas name and what does the Loom mean has anyone any idea please......Emma Seelig MOTHER Wid 62 L.o.o.m. Germany Brit.Subj
The census actually says 'living on own means'- in other words, she had some sort of private income.
One interesting things (which may link her as a daughter of Joseph Seeling & Franziska Harty) is the employer she's with in 1881.
Tracing your childrens' paternal line back to here is a simple task of FreeBMD regs [ provided by pm ]
1901 RG13 2634 28 page 5
Oaklands, Abbots Bromley Uttoxeter
George Seelig Head Wid 37 Farmer b Rugeley
George Albert Seelig 3 Abbots Bromley
Amy Seelig 15 b Abbots Bromley
Edith A Charlesworth STEP-dau 19 b Uttoxeter
Emma Seelig MOTHER Wid 62 L.o.o.m. Germany Brit.Subj
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Just in case . . . . .
(Lewis B married Hannah H)
There appear to be a small number of George HACKETT births around 1864 "in the area".
You don't suppose . . . . . ? ( a male Hackett and Emma Seelig ? )
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Just in case . . . . .
(Lewis B married Hannah H)
There appear to be a small number of George HACKETT births around 1864 "in the area".
You don't suppose . . . . . ? ( a male Hackett and Emma Seelig ? )
Ok I am on it Ray I will look at that today ...just in case ....but also William Bentley son of Lewis s was the same age as Emma so who knows. DNA would be an answer if it were around at this time LOL
Checking my notes Hannah Hackett was the daughter of William Hackett and Lydia I will see if there are any more siblings CHEERS This information is INCORRECT I believe she is the daughter of William and Ann as an EMMA HACKET one T had a christening at Armitage 7th May 1815..
Can I say at this point there are many many children born in this area with the name HACKETT
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WHOOP ....is this George the first siting I have seen of a birth ....if it is I will be able to get his birth certificate ... http://www.staffordshirebmd.org.uk/cgi/matchref.cgi?county=staffordshire&date=1863&type=birth&reference=RUG/11/354&prefix=NL
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Was that not the George Seeley birth mentioned earlier?
Is George's birth the one in Lichfield Reg. as George SEELEY June Qtr 1863? From Staffs BMD mmn is also SEELEY.
Maureen
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Was that not the George Seeley birth mentioned earlier?
Is George's birth the one in Lichfield Reg. as George SEELEY June Qtr 1863? From Staffs BMD mmn is also SEELEY.
Maureen
My geography is not good Lichfield had no meaning to me....... coupled with the wrong spelling of the surname ...it only came to ring a bell when in the entry it had the name Rugeley a place name mentioned as the birth place in the 1901 census. Another big thank you to Maureen you really have come up with some unusual information. Thank you aghadowey for pointing it out I am just so stoked to have a definite on his birth Thanks guys
Just checked through my notes and I see I got a negative response for this information from BMD .... just redone this search using Lichfield without the T that I used and I now have his birth at LICHFIELD ...I am going to check this out to see exactly where it is
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Lichfield is the registration district for the area. Here's a list of what it covered-
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/lichfield.html
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Lichfield is the registration district for the area. Here's a list of what it covered-
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/lichfield.html
Oh what an amazing link I have never heard of this Lichfield before ..it covers many of the areas that are talked about in the Seelig documents. I have added it to my favourites as I am sure it will become a much used reference for me in the future. All this information just goes to make the researching easier thank you for your post very kind
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I have had a huge boost in the truth about this families origins from a family member. I am soon to receive copies of photos that were given to her in a wooden box by her late father. I know you will understand that this will be amazing for my children and grandchildren to share. I will keep you updated and I again thank you for all your help on this post it has certainly given me an insight into the families past. Sooooooo excited
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How exciting! Please do keep us updated!
Maureen :)
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There is a single German family with the name HATRY (Levy until 1808).
Homborg = Homburg, Bavarian Palatinate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homburg,_Saarland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homburg,_Saarland)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Hatry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Hatry)
The first man who flew rocket driven, he has told me the story of his family in 1999.
Regards
Rudolf
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How exciting! Please do keep us updated!
Maureen :)
It is the family stood outside one of the farms ...it just doesn't get any better. It may be someones birthday as they are stood there with a bike and I will defo keep you in the loop..
.The birth certificate will also be arriving for Emma Seelig no name Alina but I am going to ask the opinion of the experienced members here. I just wish I had done this years ago apparently her headstone is no longer in the graveyard which is sad but having the other information and matching it against what has been posted has been an amazing journey for me.
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There is a single German family with the name HATRY (Levy until 1808).
Homborg = Homburg, Bavarian Palatinate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homburg,_Saarland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homburg,_Saarland)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Hatry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Hatry)
Thank you Rudolf I am checking to see if Emma Seeligs mothers family were any connection to the family you have written about Thank you for your post
The first man who flew rocket driven, he has told me the story of his family in 1999.
Regards
Rudolf
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OKAY I have two Julius Hatry on the family tree one was born Homburg Pfalz Bavaria 3rd feb 1809 and one was born in 1886 says Mississippi ...I have him married to a Marguerite McCowan so I will be checking for any children born to them ...thank you Rudolf for this information