RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Geraldine Girl on Friday 19 February 16 07:05 GMT (UK)
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Im new to this form of research so please be patient! Im trying to locate my Grandfather whom I cannot for the life of me find him pre 1927 when He married my Grandmother Bertha Isobelle Johnstone in Aug 1927 at Geraldine,Canterbury ,NZ. He died July 1940 at Geraldine. He supposedly came to NZ 1920 from UK where he was born circa 1879 in London area. We are almost positive the name he used Henry Jesse Lovell was " borrowed" .We have a possible scenario pre NZ but I really need to know where and when he came to NZ.I have searched high and low to no avail! Hopefully someone can help.I have his Intention to Marry details,marriage,birth certs for his children,death cert.
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All the details on the various certificates are consistent, or in other words he kept his story straight?
Might it help if we have an occupation?
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If there is an alternative name involved, what did he use for his parents names and occupations on the certificates?
Have you thought about following your grandmother's line/family down to someone living who may be able to collaborate?
If he spent all his time in Geraldine, is there an organisation there that may have more local information or where people may have knew his 'story'?
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His occupations were varied! On marriage certificate he says hes a baker.Hes also been a Cattle Valuer around Fairlie way,hes been a driver and a labourer.He was a judge for phography at local shows,played in a Silver Band. His age fluctuates on most of the certificates.The details he gave on marriage cert, about his parents ,well there is no such combination. He has been thoroughly researched by a UK Genealogist and quite a few on FB sites.Absolutely nothing! So I need to find him in NZ earlier than 1927 to see if it matches the scenario we think may have happened. All my relatives have passed away including my Father who was only 12 at the time he died.He kept his past life to himself apparently.We assume he chose ficticious names of parents to keep his past a secret .He said he was in the Navy but we dont think this was so.Ive been in contact with groups,RSA ,museum,etc in Geraldine area but there is nothing much on this man! No record of a service number even though he had an RSA funeral service that the Geraldine RSA paid for.Its like he appeared out of nowhere!
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WOW!
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Sorry I forgot to say the names of his parents ,Charles Lovell and Kathleen Lovell nee Pritchard.Charles apparently was dead when Henry and Bertha married in 1927.But there is nobody in Britain with that combination and a son called Henry Jesse Lovell.
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Just a couple of thoughts (ok, three).
1. Might he have born in Australia or another Commonwealth country?
2. The RSA would have had followed some kind of process to ensure he warranted an RSA ceremony at his death. I suggest that you contact the relevant RSA branch to see what information they had access to.
3. It might help us if you provided a timeline of his life.
Spades
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I have been in contact with Geraldine RSA and they very kindly went through all the records for me and found zilch .He had a full RSA funeral I have the obituary ,gives the names of the Pall Bearers and who played the bugle.They found nothing about HJL other than he was a British War Vet and a complaint in the minutes how much his funeral cost! When I questioned the fact about a service number for him ,they said they had no record of that and I would have to go through British records to get that. Seems strange they gave him a service without confirmation of him fighting in the war.
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I will do a timeline for HJL's life tomorrow for you the whole 13 years of it! Its not much!!
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There is a message posted on Ancestry message board in 2014 by someone looking for this same person. According to this he was born with the surname Whittal and adopted by relatives of his mother. ( found this through a general Google search for Henry Jesse Lovell).
Isobel
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Hello.
Time line so far.
Born UK c1879 and possibly adopted at an early age. Known by more that one name.
Mid thirties at start of WWI, old enough to have had a UK family.
Assumed arrived NZ after wars end, with claims of having had [UK] war service, and possibly connection to Navy. This also leaves possibility of Merchant Navy service, and passage to NZ as merchant crew.
Appears to have settled in South Island, but not known if that was because of pre-existing connections there.
Married locally at start of the great depression and raised a New Zealand family in his late forties / early fifties.
Dies at start of WWII.
Interesting.
Hopefully those with South island records at their finger tips, will be able to help.
- Alan.
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Just a couple of thoughts (ok, three).
2. The RSA would have had followed some kind of process to ensure he warranted an RSA ceremony at his death. I suggest that you contact the relevant RSA branch to see what information they had access to.
Spades
Not necessarily as the FD would have asked if he was a returned soldier and if the reply was yes they would have made the funeral arrangements on that basis,a bit hard to dig him up later ::),the RSA don't really play a part unless the family request it and Veterans Affairs pay the bill
Cheers Janette
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Have you contacted Veterans Affairs to see if they have a record?
https://rsa.org.nz/Community/SupportServices/VeteranEntitlements.aspx
Cheers Janette
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That thread of searching for HJL with the Whittal name came to nothing in the end ,my UK researcher thought she had him sorted but it wasnt to be.My Sister is probably the one you saw on Ancestry.
So his time frame is..... 1927 he was at Mt Peel in Canterbury,married Bertha on 17 Aug 1927 at Geraldine Registry Office. 1928 My father was born ,also named Henry Jesse.They were living at 16 Macdonald St ,Geraldine then. 1928 on Electoral roll he is living at 32 Winters Rd ,Ashburton as a Driver. 1929 he is a cattle valuer at Skipton Bridge,1934 he is back at Macdonald St Geraldine ,still there in 1939 and July 1940 he passed away. Have contacted Veterans and because hes not a Kiwi they dont have a record of him and RSA in Geraldine dont either.
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I know of a situation where the deceased was a UK War Veteran, he went to the RSA a few times, on meeting the RSA representatives, when we were making the funeral arrangements, they hadn't heard of him, but they did make enquiries, and he had the RSA ceremony at the graveside
Cheers
KHP
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HJL was a member of the RSA in Geraldine .They assured me no record of his WW1 service,the guy I was corresponding with went through all the records they hold and found no record of his service in the war or his service number.Seems odd to me but they obviously took him at his word. But also if he gave the number it would have come up as a different name to what he was using .That would have blown his cover?
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I have been in contact with Geraldine RSA and they very kindly went through all the records for me and found zilch .He had a full RSA funeral I have the obituary ,gives the names of the Pall Bearers and who played the bugle.
Hi Olwyn McKinlay
Are you able to share with us, details of his Obituary, please ?
The apparent link to "a full RSA" funeral does seem a little odd (given what you've told us so far).
Are you aware that (according to Geraldine Cemetery records), Henry Jesse LOVELL, is buried in the plot alongside his wife Bertha ?
[One might expect that had he had a service provided (and paid for) by the RSA, then his burial might have been in the "Services" section of the cemetery ?? ]
~ Lu
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This is it Lu. Scroll down
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP19400712.2.14&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----2henry+jesse+lovell--
Cheers
KHP
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:-[ Many thanks KHP (I should perhaps have gone in search of the Obit ? ).
Cheers ~ (Lazy) Lu
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Just a thought........
A name borrowed??
LOVELL, HENRY JESSE Private 24361 12/03/1917 25 The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) United Kingdom I. C. 13. BULLY-GRENAY COMMUNAL CEMETERY, BRITISH EXTENSION
http://www.cwgc.org/find-war-dead.aspx?cpage=1
Minniehaha.
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We think that's him yes ,from memory this guy died in March 1917 at Somme .
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Date of death shown above as, 12.3.1917.
Minniehaha.
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I wonder if more information can be found about this man, e.g. did he have siblings??
LOVELL, HENRY JESSE
Rank:PrivateService No:24361Date of Death:12/03/1917 Age:25 Regiment/Service:The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) 8th Bn. Grave Reference: I. C. 13. Cemetery:BULLY-GRENAY COMMUNAL CEMETERY, BRITISH EXTENSION
Additional Information:Son of Charlotte Annie Lovell, of 6, Montague Terrace, Collingwood Rd., Sutton, Surrey.
Minniehaha.
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HJL's sister married William Dawson and HJL lived with them until he joined up around 1914/15 he was with them in 1911 census.
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Have answered my own question......
BIRTH 1891
Henry Jesse Lovell was born in Shottermill, Haslemere, Surrey., United Kingdom in 1891 to Charlotte Annie Hellyer and Henry Lovell.
Sister: Ada Florence Lovell was born 11th November 1888
Brother: Allen James Lovell was born 1879
Sister: Emily Witte Lovell was born 1880
Sister: Rose Lovell was born 1884
Brother: William Henry Lovell was born 29th January 1886
Sister: Annie Elizabeth Lovell was born 1882
Sister: Beatrice Frances Lovell was born 1893
From:
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/2708332
Minniehaha.
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Returning to Henry Jesse LOVELL - died NZ (the subject of this thread).
Sorry I forgot to say the names of his parents ,Charles Lovell and Kathleen Lovell nee Pritchard.Charles apparently was dead when Henry and Bertha married in 1927.But there is nobody in Britain with that combination and a son called Henry Jesse Lovell.
Just noting that the NZ Marriage index shows bridegroom 1927 as Henry LOVELL (rather than Henry Jesse LOVELL).
"Charles LOVELL" (father) "apparently dead" ???
* Does it say "deceased" on marriage cert. (or printout)
* Any occupation given to father of groom ?
* Can you clarify also please, was the (supposed) mother of Henry Jesse, "Kathleen" ... or ...
Katherine / Catherine (as mentioned in the post ancestry.com message board.) ???
~ Lu
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Well done ! Let me know when you want the theory of my Genealogist in UK just to throw a spanner in the works!
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Well done ! Let me know when you want the theory of my Genealogist in UK just to throw a spanner in the works!
May as throw that spanner on here, to see what they thought.
Cheers
KHP
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Hi Olwyn,
Have you noticed if Henry followed the English naming patterns for his children?
Cheers Janette
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Dad was named Henry Jesse, his brother was Noel Alfred and daughter was Nina ,so only Dad really.
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Hi Olwyn Mckinlay
Could you please answer some of the earlier questions which have been asked on this thread ?
[e.g. re: his marriage cert. details ]
~ Lu
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With respect Lucy2, [re your reply # 25].
Thinking outside the box...........
The reason I made mention of any possible siblings, is the thought that if the name of Henry Jesse Lovell was pirated, was there a reason why the OP's grandfather picked this particular name? Was it a random choice or had he been associated with him in some way? Who knows, descendants of the real Henry Jesse may have discovered the situation through knowledge handed down.
Minniehaha.
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Dad was named Henry Jesse, his brother was Noel Alfred and daughter was Nina ,so only Dad really.
His obituary says 5 children,was that incorrect?
Cheers Janette
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To make this clearer... the spanner in the works has come to a standstill.I am really hoping that you NZ experts can help me go forward!All that is known of HJL is from certificates and family lore.
Name Henry Jesse Lovell born in London ,died age 60 in 1940 ( DOB 1880)his age fluctuated,but going from his photos he was not younger than 60 at his death.At Marriage in 1927 he claimed to be 38 yrs old making DOB 1889 but his wife ( Nana) said he was 47 when they married.
His Father on Wedding Cet was Charles Henry Lovell,deceased,family lore says he was a naval rating.Mother Kathleen Pritchard,I always associated her with Wales because my Father gave me a Welsh name to accomodate some obscure Welsh connection.
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Next part its too long to put it up all at once! Nana wassai to have sent food parcels to HJL's sister in WW2 but no names or addresse all that is lost.I managed to get a original certificate which he signed,HJ Lovell other documents give Henry Jesse or just Henry. Now the problem," the spanner" Only one Henry Jesse Lovell in whole of UK BDMs this name is unique to that one soldier who died in France.He joined the war in a " Buddy Regiment"East Surrey Reg where many men from Carshalton village also belonged.Only thing is this HJL was too young to br my Grandad,no way was Grandad 52 when he died.He wasnt younger than 60 ,could have been a year or two older.This HJL was not born in London,his father was a painter not a naval man.Wife was Charlotte and no connection to Wales whatsoever.No naval records for a CHarles henry Lovell,no Kathleen, Kathryn or Catherine connection or with a child named henry or Jesse.No records of service or medals.Conclusion... he was telling porkies.How does one pull a name out of a hat that is unique of a dead man?After 1914 Passports were compulsory ,in order to set up shop in Nz he had to have proof he wasnt an alien.so would have to have documentation ( Passport)Any ideas welcome! Any ideas as to how to go forward please!
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Yes Janette 5 children but only 3 were his.Gordon and Phoebe were born before they met.Nana had these two pre marriage.
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Returning to Henry Jesse LOVELL - died NZ (the subject of this thread).
With respect Lucy2, [re your reply # 25].
Minniehaha.
Sorry, but you seem to have misunderstood ...
I simply highlighted the above to show that I was returning to discussion on the man who'd died in New Zealand. ;)
~ Lu
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I wonder if more information can be found about this man, e.g. did he have siblings??
LOVELL, HENRY JESSE
Rank:PrivateService No:24361Date of Death:12/03/1917 Age:25 Regiment/Service:The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) 8th Bn. Grave Reference: I. C. 13. Cemetery:BULLY-GRENAY COMMUNAL CEMETERY, BRITISH EXTENSION
Additional Information:Son of Charlotte Annie Lovell, of 6, Montague Terrace, Collingwood Rd., Sutton, Surrey.
Minniehaha.
Has any one checked out the possibility that this man borrowed the identity of an older family member so that he could sign up. Especially so if the real H. J. Lovell was at sea as a Merchant marine sailor, with little connection to home.
In cases where this happened next of kin were left with a massive legal hurdle, to get official acknowledgement, and Commonwealth records & engravings changed / corrected.
- Alan.
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Thank you for providing the additional information, Olwyn.
[It helps us to be able to help you when questions are answered. ] :)
~ Lu
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Who was the Mr K E LOVELL he was on the Cycling Club Committee with over a number of years.
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=CHP19371001.2.10&srpos=6&e=-------100--1----0Pipe+Band+Lovell--
- Alan.
OOPP's IN ERROR
In my haste to see who the New Zealand Henry Jesse LOVELL was associating with, I evidently did not type the H J initials into my search criteria, and after finding several newspaper clips to do with South Island Bands and Cycling Clubs, did not spot that I was looking at F. H. LOVELL not H J LOVELL and his associates. Sorry Lucy.
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LOVELL, HENRY JESSE
Rank:PrivateService No:24361Date of Death:12/03/1917 Age:25 Regiment/Service:The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) 8th Bn. Grave Reference: I. C. 13. Cemetery:BULLY-GRENAY COMMUNAL CEMETERY, BRITISH EXTENSION
Additional Information:Son of Charlotte Annie Lovell, of 6, Montague Terrace, Collingwood Rd., Sutton, Surrey.
Has any one checked out the possibility that this man borrowed the identity of an older family member so that he could sign up. Especially so if the real H. J. Lovell was at sea as a Merchant marine sailor, with little connection to home.
Alan ... Free BMD (UK) has the following birth registration.
Births - MAR - 1892
LOVELL - Henry Jesse
Reg'd. Farnham (bounds Hampshire,Surrey & Sussex)
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On a completely different tack a Henry Jesse McSporran was born in St George's Hanover Square in 1880. Seems to vanish into thin air thereafter. Only other McSporran link I can see with that area is a Robert McSporran who was working as a butler in London in 1871. He was from Scotland but had a wife and family back home in Ryde, Isle of Wight. His first wife Edith nee Pope died in Ryde in 1871 ( strangely the notice of her death says she was the widow of Robert) and in 1877 he married Elizabeth Whitely in St Georges HS. She was much younger than him and appears to have been a maid in the same household as Robert in 1871. In 1883 Robert's daughter from his first marriage, Amelia Olivia McSporran, married in St George's HS ( giving her father as Robert, occupation Butler). There is no sign of Henry Jesse with either Robert and Elizabeth or Amelia in later census and no evidence that he died young. I wonder if he was born to Amelia before marriage and Robert used his upper class contacts to have him placed with another family. Just something to add to the mix!
Re. Taking the name of the deceased Henry Jesse Lovell - if he was going to choose a name to adopt wouldn't he look for someone closer in age who had served in the same service ie Royal Navy?
Isobel
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Very well thought out interesting theory Isabelw.You could be right.
Have found this sailing record.
Southampton to Wellington 20 Feb 1920.
Ship Corinthic.
Mr H.T.Lovell the fmpast image could well be a J. [ instead of T.]
Ist Class.
Alone, age 47.
Last residence column British Possessions is ticked,so may have been living in another part of
Commonwealth,or returning to NZ.
Brionne.
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I wonder if this christening is related to the birth of Henry Jesse McSporran. I can't see a birth for a Henry Jesse Sporran??
Henry Jesse Sporran Christening 7 Nov 1880 at Chevening, Kent Parents Henry and Amy Sporran
Kay
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That looks like a good find Kay99. Can't see any sign of them in 1881 though. Interestingly Robert McS had a son called Henry who doesn't seem to have married and was also in service. Can't find him after 1901.
Isobel
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Have found this sailing record.
Southampton to Wellington 20 Feb 1920.
Ship Corinthic.
Mr H.T.Lovell the fmpast image could well be a J. [ instead of T.]
Ist Class.
Alone, age 47.
Hi Brionne
An additional record (NZ Immigration passenger lists @ familysearch) shows this Mr LOVELL (travelling 1st class cabin, per "Corinthic"), as
Harold LOVELL - 47 years - Commercial Agent - English
~ Lu
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Mr H.T.Lovell the fmpast image could well be a J. [ instead of T.]
Quickly looking at one of my resources, I would say the middle name is a "T". Henry Jesse Lovell was 47 when he married, in 1927, so this chappie was in his 50's then.
Cheers
KHP
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Mr H.T.Lovell the fmpast image could well be a J. [ instead of T.]
Quickly looking at one of my resources, I would say the middle name is a "T". ** There is the letter "J" written 3 lines ups from the LOVELL listing , with which to compare handwriting. ~ Added by Lucy2 [/color]
Henry Jesse Lovell was 47 when he married, in 1927, so this chappie was in his 50's then.
Cheers
KHP
I agree KHP. ;)
[I believe this H.T. LOVELL was one "Harold Thomas LOVELL" bc. 1872 London - s/o John Cary & Eliza Jane LOVELL. Shipping records show HTL made numerous trips between UK and NZ (- and he is probably the man who represented a firm known as Christmas and Lovell). Buried Manutahi Cemetery, Taranaki (with wife) - died 1959.]
~ Lu
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Thanks Lu ;D
Just thinking outside the box and under the stone, and it has sometimes been suggested on other threads when we can't find a shipping record, for a poster, that it is possible that a person worked their passage across as crew. Not saying that is the case here, but most of us know in our searches, the one record we want is the one that is not available.
Cheers
KHP
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I also found a H Lovell arriving on Maheno in July 1920 to Auckland he was born circa 1888 and entry was Immigration.From UK. A bit young for mine I guess .
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You said that he gave the age 38 when he married which equates to 1889 birth. That matches the details for the 1920 shipping record. Could he gave lied on both?
Isobel
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He was a good liar/porkie teller so who knows? I tried to find this man in Auckland but no luck he may have travelled on.Its the only one Ive seen that " fits" with the lie of age! Ive tried Sailors Home in Auckland and Anglican Services records but neither have him. This s why we call him Illusive Grandad! Nowhere to be found!
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On his marriage cert his occupation is Baker,maybe another lie as Ive never seen him use that for his occupation,its usually Driver or Labourer unless of course he worked his passage as a baker on a ship? Ive phoned the Farm Staions near MT Peel and none of them have him in their Diaries or records of workers.There wasnt a Bakery at Mt Peel according to residents there.
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I think to be a cattle valuer, you would need some background knowledge. You have your valuers who can get you the best price in cattle from another seller (that is going privately, and not through the cattle sales) or you have the valuers who work on behalf of the meat works. In saying that, I am not sure how it worked back then, but these days non-farming background people, usually have training.
Cheers
KHP
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Yes I was very surprised to see him as a Cattle Valuer,quite a different occupation for him. Maybe he lied at his experience in that field,But also from Papers Past he was a judge in Photography section at A@ P show at Orari .Dont think he was a professional photographer ,he did colour photos as did my Dad. So he was a Jack of Trades and Master of none really. He is an Enigma!
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I also found a H Lovell arriving on Maheno in July 1920 to Auckland he was born circa 1888 and entry was Immigration.From UK. A bit young for mine I guess .
Please be aware that the "Maheno" (arrived Auckland - 20 July 1920) sailed from Sydney, That would mean that the person H. LOVELL on this voyage, had been in Australia.
[The "Maheno" appears to be the (Union Steam Ship Co. ? ) vessel which made regular trans-Tasman voyages for many years.
It probably wasn't a ship which brought immigrants from the UK in those years. ]
~ Lu
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Yes I was very surprised to see him as a Cattle Valuer,quite a different occupation for him. Maybe he lied at his experience in that field,But also from Papers Past he was a judge in Photography section at A@ P show at Orari .
Hi ... are you able to give us some dates (or links) relating to these newspaper (and other) finds, please ?
~ Lu
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1939 was the Photography one and at Skipton Bridge as a cattle valuer in 1929 Lu.
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Archives suggested I look at Wises Directory but I dont have access to that.I cant imagine he would pay a massive fare to NZ so perhaps he had assisted passage or paid his way.My Grandparents dont appear to be wealthy,presuming thats why RSA paid for his entire funeral?
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I think to be a cattle valuer, you would need some background knowledge. You have your valuers who can get you the best price in cattle from another seller (that is going privately, and not through the cattle sales) or you have the valuers who work on behalf of the meat works. In saying that, I am not sure how it worked back then, but these days non-farming background people, usually have training.
Cheers
KHP
KHP as you are aware for 45 years my business has been buying in cattle in store condition and finishing them off for market. In that time I've rub shoulders with hundreds of livestock agents and valuers'. While most had formal, or on the job training, and coming to that industry with a rural background helped, many did not. Anyone could set themselves up as a middle man livestock agent as an independent or seek employment as a staff member of either a Stock & Station Agency, or one of the meat slaughtering and or exporting companies. Seasonal lamb drafting for the UK Christmas market was always an issue getting enough drafters on the road.
All they needed was self confidence and an eye for livestock. Gift of the gab helps in the first instance.
Staying in the industry was the trick, and to do that they had to get results for their client. They were only as good as their last successful hand shake. Many were/are full of promises and don't deliver consistent results therefore there can be a high turnover.
Why I always made myself responsible for the yearly purchasing of replacement livestock.
- Alan.
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Hi,
In regards to the Henry MCSPORRAN b.1854 son of Robert and Edith, I think that this could be his death,
Henry MCSPORRAN Mar Q 1910 Isle of Wight 2b 441
Age: 55
I can see him in all the censuses as unmarried but I wonder if it's possible that he is the Henry in the christening of Henry Jesse SPORRAN b.1880 in Kent? I can't see any Henry SPORRAN - Amy ?? marriage.
Daisy
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For Merchant Seamen, if he served after 1918, there is an index to the record cards which are at Southampton Archives:
https://www.southampton.gov.uk/libraries-museums/local-family-history/southampton-archives/index-merchant-seamen.aspx
You can also search an index of Merchant seamen here, but it won't give as much information as the original cards would.
https://familysearch.org/search/collection/1762440
Presuming that the 'Pritchard' name he didn't pull out of thin air, this man might be of interest.
Henry Pritchard, b. 15 Dec 1881, Poplar, signed up to the Royal Navy 1897:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D6702726
There is no Henry Pritchard birth registration that matches up with that birthdate, as far as I can see (should be registered Dec 1881 or Mar 1882 quarters) - possible he changed his birthdate or didn't know his true birthplace or birthname - often young boys who went into the Navy did so from industrial schools and the like.
Also possibly of interest, this boy in 1891, Harry Pritchard aged 10 living with grandparents:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:4QTR-7T2
He is not the "Henry James Pritchard" born 1880 in that area - that's the son of James Pritchard b. 1847 and is with his family in the same census.
Following the family back in time shows they had many children including a 'Kate Pritchard'
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKX9-418Z
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VFDB-VL7
James Pritchard married Elizabeth Blake in 1863. He was married before, so some of the children seen 1871 onwards are his with his first wife:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7C3-44Z
But "Kate" isn't - possibly she was born Blake and was the mother of "Kate Blake" listed as a granddaughter in 1891?
I think "Kate", the younger in 1891 may have been born "Florence Kate S Blake" in 1880. She's not the "Florence K S Pritchard" who married in the area in 1921 - that's a woman born 1895.
It's possible that "Harry Pritchard" in 1891 is the Harry Edward Pritchard born March 1881 Whitechapel district - he appears in the Eling area in 1901:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XSXN-G1Y
He is listed as 'boarder' here but "Amelia Abbott" is nee Pritchard so is his aunt if he's from the same family. He seems to disappear after 1901, or at least I can't find him. Neither can I spot possible sister/cousin Kate/Florence Kate.
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Interesting theory! Thankyou all so much for participating in this hunt of mine! Thinking outside the square is the way to go for sure. HJL went to great lengths to keep his past a secret it seems so must have been hiding something? Maybe his real first name is Henry and has borrowed the rest? The Pritchard name is Welsh isnt it? Because Dad always said we had Welsh blood we just accepted the fact our Grandad was Welsh.He named me Olwyn for that reason so maybe there is a Welsh connection somewhere???
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He might have borrowed the name "Henry Jesse Lovell" but have been a Henry/Harry - more common for people to change the last name or add middle names.
In addition, it seems more unlikely he completely made up all his details, so a 'Kathleen Pritchard' or variants married to a 'Charles' might be who we're looking for. Pritchard might not be her maiden name, though - could be a stepfather's name, etc, and 'Charles' could be a stepfather or other male relative not his birth father.
Do you have anything from NZ which might give his birthdate? Very unusual for that to change even if years shift around.
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No birth dates at all Im afraid.We dont even know his birthday . Maybe Charles Henry or Henry Charles could be the Dad,s name.Like you say he hopefully didnt make all the names up! In the obituary it says went to sea at age 12 ,well the real HJL didnt. Im sure thats the reason my father joined the Navy for WW2 as his Father said he was in the Navy. All we know is family lore, born in London,had a connection to Wales,born around 1880 or earlier and his Father was in the Merchant Navy. If a person changes his identity there has to be a reason for that.Maybe he went AWOL during the War ? The penalty for running away was death,so maybe?? Cousins over 30 years ago went to Catherine House to find his records so they could work in UK but after spending days there looking we realised then he wasnt who he said he was.
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Family likeness and old photos ???
Was there a strong family likeness in any photos you have through the generations.? Any in any sort of uniform? Would it be possible to pick him out in band photos? What instrument/s did he play? Presumably was trained some where to play.
Registry wedding so presume was not a Salvation Army Church member and member of a Salvation Army Silver Band of Hope. Sally's normally keep good records.
Art & photography, any of his works survive ? What were the subjects ? Or was he just on an organizing committee and his lot fell to being a guest judge of some classes?
Clutching at straws.
- Alan.
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The family likeness between HJL and my Father and Uncle was very strong indeed.One of my brothers also has the look.Also you can see it it in 2 of my sons. We have a picture of HJL in Band Uniform that has been professionally coloured.Not sure if he coloured it or someone else. It is thought he coloured photos as a hobby ,my Father did also. Think Photography was the same. I saw a photo of Geraldine Silver Band this morning in the 1930s and hes not named in it,there is an older man in a suit in the front row that sort of looks like him but hes named someone else.I have a piece from a programme of the Geraldine Band Contest in 1934 and hes named as a bandsman and on the committee. In the town HJL came from ( the real HJL ) they had a band ,workers played in it . Apparently the instruments are easy enough to learn and play as only a few notes unlike piano ,violin etc. I see in Papers Past he was on a committee for Geraldine Boy Scouts.Dabbled in so many things!!!! The photo I have of him in Band Uniform ,he has coloured ribbons like war ones so I emailed a Local Band with the photo to ask if this was a band or war set.
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Hello again.
That being the case you will find the photo restore, and date forum within this site, very obliging and extremely knowledgeable. They have gone out of their way to assist me, and give new life to some old photos I came by.
Admittedly those photos were probably over 100 years, and some of the ones that may assist your quest could involve the living, but there is still the ability to Private Message some of the active forum members on that forum.
A quick look through the threads there will show you the range of assistance that can be had.
Old school photos in the period of your quest, and supposed localities, could also be another straw to follow up for ideas. Are there any of the "real" HJL and who were his class mates ?
Regards,
Alan.
PS. If there is a very strong identifying family likeness trait perhaps you could "innocently" publish an unnamed copy of a photo of your Grand Dad, asking if anyone recognised the person, and publish it on Rootschat or on a local web page, in the areas of your research. Could also ask for an estimate of the date of the photograph.
For the age you believe he was when he arrived in NZ, he could well have left progeny behind in his home area, or as a sailor, at his ports of call.
PSS Later. Excuse my naivety, from what I can find online tonight, we in NZ were better primary schooled for all comers, and with a good supply of school class photos surviving, though I have to admit a lot of our surviving 1890's class photos do not name the pupils there in. For named subjects one has to seek out school milestone anniversary books and booklets.
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Thanks Allan, Im not sure what you mean by the photos,could you clarify please? Did you mean for me to post a photo of Dad suggesting it was HJL? I dont have any pics of Dad as a child.I hadnt thought of school pics actually,he went to Geraldine School so maybe I can access those? The earliest pic of HJL I have is of him with his baby daughter.He would be in his 50s then. HJL's sister Annie went to Moreland St School it seems .Photos are rare in London back then . Are you thinking I should post on the UK Rootschat forum ???? Or the town HJL lived in may have a site ???
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Will PM you - Alan.
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Who was Annie?
Isobel
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HJL had a sister Annie Isobell
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Sorry - just a bit confused! Are we talking about the real HJL here and not your grandad?
Isobel
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Sorry isobelle! yes the real HJL! Sorry ,its confusing isnt it! I do so wish he hadnt "borrowed: a name!
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I dont seem to be having any luck finding Henry Jesse Lovell Isobelle pre 1927,he was meant to arrive in NZ around 1920 but havent found him anywhere. I wonder if Timaru Seaport was a destination if he was at Mt Peel in 1927.Any ideas would be welcomed!
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Thanks Alan re photos and training for the sea info. I have phoned Geraldine Museum re school photos for my father so I can post them up and hopefully someone may think they recognise family likeness to HJL,wishfull thinking maybe but worth a try like you say.Unfortunately I cant get them for a couple of weeks as the person who scans them is ill.Can you think of where I should look in NZ for this illusive man please? Ive searched so many avenues Im running out of options! Im wondering if he used a different christian name and kept the Lovell surname.He cant just appear out of thin air ,he must have begun his new life somewhere? Ive messaged several UK groups today for photos in the army ,so crossing fingers there!
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Hello again.
The only advise I can give from 36 years of research is nothing ventured, nothing gained. Plant your seed where ever you think it may get you a result, and wait for a harvest. Search engines like Google bring together people, in a way that was impossible when I started.
In about 2000, when I wanted to take some research into Siberia I obtained a separate email address because of spam,[ before the days of emphasis on personal computers having 3rd party spam protection]. Good thing I did, because some very objectionable spam was soon coming my way, but also a 17 page scientific paper [in Russian] I was looking for. Translating proved to be out of my budget, so an English / Russian dictionary was obtained, and I achieved some time later, a translation of sorts, only to learn that an Incorporated Society I belonged to, had the ability to handle the 5 or so differing keyboard translations. Then last year on a NZ beach I got talking to a foreigner only to discover that his best mate, through his TOMSK University years, was married to the Universities Librarian who went out of her way to help me find the Russian paper. Had I known the guy at the beach, he could have translated for me.
I placed possibly 20 or more toll calls throughout NZ trying to locate the five farms a man on a tour of discovery took photos of in 1954, before going blind. He told me the regions he visited, but for the life of me, I could not place the farms with the photos, until I learnt, in casual conversation, that a social colleague had worked as a youth, in one area of interest. He put me in contact with a farmer who was able to solve my problem. Plus fill me in with the background history.
Do not panic, nor loose heart, just give it time and hopefully some day someone will hand you a key to help unravel your mysteries.
- Alan.
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Thanks Alan,its easy to lose heart when you cannot find someone! He was my Grandfather and I should know about him,I wont rest easy until I have found him! Its very frustrating not to have found him in NZ other than Geraldine area and Mt Peel. Ill put his photo up in his band uniform once I know how! Thanks for trying .
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Simple as.
For this forum I believe the size limit is about 400 or 500 Kb in a number of pictorial formats. jpg being one of the common ones. Therefore you may have to crop the outer edges of your photo to reduce it's size, or crop even further to a portrait image if very high resolution. And save as with a new title. You can also crop to just capture any COLOURS he may be wearing etc on a uniform and save as with a new title. I usually just add RC to the title so I know I'm getting the image I want to attach.
When ready to post just click on the ATTACHMENTS BROSE icon left bottom below your forum reply text box, and then brose to the file you have your saved image in. Click on that and it will be uplifted and attached to your thread reply.
The images do not have to be attached to this thread if you want the photo and uniform specialists to comment [therefore start a new thread on that forum] or be posted on a forum of an other country or region on RC.
- Alan.
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Hello.
As Olwyn experienced trouble trying to load to large a photo file, I have undertaken to do it for her.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=742665.new#new
-Alan
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Hi Olwyn,
I've just read through your very interesting thread. Wow what a mystery!
I just wanted to comment that the middle name Jesse is, in my opinion, unusual. It seems to me that your Grandfather didn't pick these names at random.
I notice that the real Henry Jesse Lovell had 2 older brothers - as posted by Minniehaha.
Is there any chance one of them used their deceased brother's name to vanish?? The eldest has a year of birth that would tally with the year of birth your grandfather went with 1880 .
I only ask because I have a similar scenario with an ancestor who 'disappeared' from Scotland and later turned up enlisted in AIF 1915 using his brother's middle names as his name.
Long shot I know . *undecided face (icons not working since Windows 10 upgrade !)
Good luck,
Looby
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Thanks looby! Its a total nightmare ! Been searching so long now,Im making this my last ditch effort while I still have all my faculties lol! Your suggestion could be possible too.We have always pondered the Jesse too as its not a common name ,one of my Grandkids has the name as a middle name to honour my Father and Grandfather.It worries me that it may not be a " true" name!! I literally cannot find him pre 1927 when he married which is odd as he obviously came from somewhere other than MT Peel in Canterbury! He has covered his tracks well thats for sure! He appears to be a good person and was involved in many things which is a comfort.
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I don't think the name Jesse was all that unusual back then,my father in law had Jesse as a first christian name and was given his mother's maiden name for a second christian name...................yep you guessed it it was James ::) ::) ::) ::) ::)
Cheers Janette
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I suppose in Scotland - Jesse - or Jessie has always been more a female name. But I suppose you are right Janette , looking at CWGC there are actually quite a few Jesses which surprised me.
Anyway Olwyn - rule out Allen James Lovell elder brother of the real Henry Jesse Lovell - he died in Surrey in 1935 according to this site https://livesofthefirstworldwar.org/lifestory/2707770
Looby
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Thanks Looby and Janette! Puzzles are made to be solved arent they? Just hope this one can be!
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Hi,
A google search throws up the following, possibly you have seen this already:
http://boards.ancestry.com/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=1196&p=surnames.lovell
Leanne
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Hi,
A google search throws up the following, possibly you have seen this already:
http://boards.ancestry.com/thread.aspx?mv=flat&m=1196&p=surnames.lovell
Leanne
Already mentioned in Reply # 9 & 13
Cheers
KHP
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Hi,
Thanks, it's along thread and missed that.
Leanne