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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Nikita1985 on Monday 15 February 16 21:35 GMT (UK)
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Hi Everyone!
Hoping someone might be able to give me a little advice as to my next direction with an elusive ancestor!
What I have so far:
Source: 1911 Census
Henry Holland: Born circa 1866/1867 Manchester - (Source confirmed correct 'Henry' in various ways - although suspicious about place of birth) Living in Derby. (Wright St, - Boarder, apparently married for 13 years)
Source: Birth certificates of his children:
Had four children - but his name wasn't on any of the four birth cert's, just the Mother - Mary Ann Holland and her occupation, (a Hawker) thus no maiden name. All 4 children born during 'marriage'
Source: Baptisms of his children
Mentioned on two of his four children's baptism records, these were the two youngest of the four. (unable to locate any baptism record for other two older children - possibly not baptised)
Source: Marriage of his children
Mentioned on his first child's marriage cert as the Father of the Groom - 1922
Currently waiting for marriage certificate for second child -1921
Not mentioned on the third child's marriage cert (just a line through the box - although he was on this child's baptism) - 1925
Mentioned on forth child's marriage cert as 'diseased' - 1928 (He was also on this child's baptism)
So! That's what I have. I just don't know where to turn next! I cannot locate a marriage cert as I don't have his 'Wife's' maiden name. And I cannot locate him on any previous census either. All I know is that he died possibly between 1922 - 1928. What would be the best way to use the information I have?
So there is so much detail!
Thank you!
Nikita
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Where are Mary Ann and the children in the 1911 and 1901 census?
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That is a mixed bag to not be named on any of the birth certificates yet be on two of the baptisms.
Mary Ann would only have been about 17 at the time of alleged marriage - was the oldest child born before 1901 - can he/she be traced?
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All I know is that he died possibly between 1922 - 1928.
Not necessarily because it wasn't always noted fathers were deceased - even if they were - so he could have died before 1922.
I can't see a death that fits age wise :-\
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I think I might have found them in 1901 in Mammoth Street, Coalville, Derbyshire in the household of Moses Holland. They are listed as:-
Harry Allwood son in law age 32 born Manchester
Mary Allwood daughter age 28 born Ingleby Yorks
Frederick Allwood grandson age 2 born Derby
There is a much later marriage in Dec quarter of 1918 in Derby between a Henry Allwood and a Mary Ann Holland. So it looks as if they weren't married when the children were born and the children all have their mother's maiden name. For some reason they have chosen to call themselves Mr and Mrs Holland in 1911.
Isobel
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Hmm this is all very helpful thank you everyone.
To answer some questions on the 1911 census they are in Derby, Henry, Mary Ann and children. The eldest is 11 born 1899. He is my great grandfather. (Frederick)
Monmouth Street Coalville rings right because the second child - Mary Jane was born there. As for Allwood... That's intriguing as Frederick served in the war and when I was sent his papers I also received papers (in the same evelope) for a Harold Allwood... also born 1899... so there's something very strange gouge on here!!!!
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How interesting!
The certificate for the marriage Isobel found in 1918 could provide some clues.
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Mary Allwood daughter age 28 born Ingleby Yorks
Do you think this is the same lady as Mary Ann because I thought she had a different birthplace and was only 30 in 1911
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It looks as if Moses Holland came to a rather sad end. There are reports in various papers eg Dundee Courier 1st Oct 1910 of a Moses Holland age 65, a scissor grinder, drowning in the River Trent while running away from police. The age doesn't tally with the 1901 census but His age varies from census to census (1847 in 1891 and 1852 in 1881) and he is described as a Scissor Grinder in 1881. The family are living in moveable accommodation/tents in both 1881 and 1891 and in 1891 are described as gypsies.
There is a possible for Henry/ Harry Allwood in 1891 (place of birth given as Lanchester but obviously Manchester on the original). He is residing at 29 Park Street Derby and is a Street Lamplighter. Described as married but no wife present - maybe reason he didn't marry Mary Ann right away.
Isobel
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There is a death of a Henry Allwood born 1865 in Dec quarter of 1927 in Derby.
Isobel
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The plot thickens. Nottingham Evening Post 27th Feb 1892 has a report of proceedings from Derby Borough Court. A Prudence Allwood summoned her husband Henry Allwood for desertion. She said they had been married nearly three years but had already been separated previously for a period of One year ten months. There is a marriage June quarter 1889 in Derby between Henry Allwood and Prudence Blurton Shardlow. A Prudence Allwood married in Derby in June 1908.
Isobel
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Wow! Thank you Isobel for all the information you have provided - I will spend some time over the next week or so looking into all of this - you have definetly helped me think about what direction to go in!!
I have also emailed the MOD to ask of there is a reason they 'randomly' sent me Service Records for 'Harold Allwood' when i only requesting 'Frederick Holland'. Hopefully they might have a reason!
Thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read, look into and reply to my post - it is very much appreciated!
I'll be sure to post again either with an update or for further help!
Fingers crossed :)
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A Prudence Allwood married in Derby in June 1908.
According to the record on ancestry, this Prudence's father is given as William Allwood, so perhaps not the one who was married to Henry Allwood :-\
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That said, I think there may be some jiggery pokery with young Prudence! Prudence Blurton Shardlow is born in Derby in 1872. On the 1881 census, there is a Prudence Blurton, bn 1872, with parents William and Sarah Blurton and three siblings (William, Job James and Mary A).
I can't find Prudence yet on the 1891 census, but on the 1901 census she is living at 3 Borough Walk with 'husband' Frances Barker and son Frances Barker. I wonder if when she gets married to Frances in 1908, if there was an error in the naming of her father as William Allwood (surname to match the name she married as?) or whether there has been an error in transcription?
ETA: There is a death for Prudence Barker in Dec qtr 1908. Looking at the 1911 census, Francis Barker and another son Albert Barker are living with their grandmother Sarah Blurton. I wonder if Prudence died in childbirth?
ETA #2: Just found a baptism for a Prudence Barker in 1899, parents are Francis and Prudence Barker. There is a corresponding birth and, sadly, death for Prudence in 1899. In which case, I wonder if Francis Barker was the young man that Henry Allwood accused her of carrying on with in the newspaper reports?
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Thank you SpiderMonkey.... I am starting to wonder if Henry Holland ever existed or whether he lived under various names.... maybe I am not a 'true' Holland afterall!
My head is exploding with all this information but somehow I will try and piece it together! I have looked at the 1901 census for Mammoth St, Coalville, and I can see that the Holland and Allwood Family were living together in the same 'house'. - Strange that there is a 'Frederick Allwood' born the same year as my 'Frederick Holland' AND in Derby (I have my Frederick's birth certificate - he was Derby too) ......and also that his sister 'Mary Jane Holland' was born here in 1902. (I have her birth certificate and it states 'Mary Jane Holland' Mammoth Street, born 1902 - Mother Mary Ann Holland) However the two younger siblings 'William Henry Holland' (1905) and 'Alfred Holland' (1909) were born in Derby and although no father on birth cert, their corrosponding baptisms had the father as 'Henry Holland'.
AARGGHHH! and Thank you :)
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Certainly looks as if she was with Francis in 1901 when Henry is shown as married but living alone. This would explain why there is no sign of a Prudence Allwood in the 1901 census.
Isobel
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Possible for Henry Allwood in 1881 - as a page to the vicar of Little Eaton, Derbyshire RG11; Piece: 3393; Folio: 100; Page: 37
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Thank you SpiderMonkey.... I am starting to wonder if Henry Holland ever existed or whether he lived under various names.... maybe I am not a 'true' Holland afterall!
I think he only existed under 2 names - Henry Allwood from birth up to the ending of his first marriage. Then, perhaps to disguise the fact he wasn't legally free to marry, or perhaps to avoid being caught and made to pay maintenance for Prudence, he chose to go by the surname of his new partner and so became a Holland.
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There is a tree on Ancestry for a Henry Allwood son of Henry Allwood and Sarah Taylor born 1865 in Manchester. In 1871 he is living in Manchester with his father (shown as married) and three siblings - all the children shown as born Salford ( there is a matching birth for a Henry Allwood in Salford on FreeBMD). By 1881 Henry ( age 16) is working as a Page in the vicarage in Little Eaton, Derbyshire.
I am fairly confident that Henry Holland and Henry Allwood are one and the same person.
Isobel
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Thanks again everyone.... The MOD have now confirmed that my Gt Grandfather Frederick Holland served in WW2 as 'Frederick Holland' and the reason I received documents for a 'Harold Allwood' also is because they have evidence that he served during WW1 under an alias. (Harold Allwood) They are posting me what they have to support this. This all ties in with the information from Isobel and I have my detective hat back on to continue the search!
I'll close this post out now but I dare say I will be back!
Thanks again,
Nikita
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Hi my great grandfather was William Henry Holland who was bother to Frederick Holland William's mother was Mary Ann Holland that lived in derby town centre working as a hawker who live at a now demolished George yard which I walked down and where my family and great grandmother walked making money for her family it ft amazing :)
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Nikita: if the information that he had been married 13 years in 1911 is accurate, and he was living with his family in Derby, then I think I'd take a punt on the following marriage which surely merits further investigation:
George Henry Holland married Mary Ann King or Gertrude Helen Taylor: Registered Derbyshire, Belper 1897 Q1 volume 7B page 750
We can rule out Gertrude Helen Taylor because:
George Henry Holland married Mary Ann King in Ironville in 1897: Derbyshire Registrars Marriage Index ICC/02/044, Register Office 392
(references taken from FindMyPast and not validated in any way)
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I have the marriage certificate of Mary Ann holland and Henry allwood but not sure how to pop it on here for you to see ???
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Gysyroselee13 - Wow! What a connection! So we must be distant cousins?? I have William Henry living in Shardlow as a 'Cleaning Dept Labourer' in 1939... are you still local? Wow! This is exciting!
As for attaching the cert, when typing a message, there is a blue link 'attachments and other options', just select that and upload from your computer :)
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It's not letting me send it :-\ it's saying it to big how else can I send you a picture of the birth certificate ???
I do live in derby but more towards the town centre now, but my dream would be to live in the country side I love open space and nature who knows one day I might :)
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You will need to reduce the size of the file to 500KB or less. This is usually done by reducing the quality of the image. You can read stuff pretty well on screen which is a lot fuzzier than you would put up with in print.
There are many picture editing programs which will do this. I use the one shipped with Microsoft Office.
Always work on a COPY of your image. Don't mess up the original!
There's a tutorial at:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
Remember that if you don't want the world and his wife to see the picture, send it in a Personal Message.
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Here is one part sorry I'm having to do it this way have no idea how else to do it
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Hope you can understand them :-\