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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Cornwall => England => Cornwall Lookup Requests => Topic started by: juliaanna1701 on Thursday 11 February 16 23:11 GMT (UK)
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Hello everyone,
I am hoping someone can help me navigate the brick wall I have come up upon in my family research. My ancestor, Richard Henry Edwards, was born abt 1834-1836 in Redruth, Cornwall according to his marriage certificate - he states his parents as RICHARD + ELIZABETH EDWARDS.
I have been searching the records (in particular the Cornwall OPC) but unfortunately the gaps in the parish records are for the thirty years I really need - ie 1800-1830ish. I have found on the IGI an EDWARDS family who resided in Redruth who seem to match:
Elizabeth Edwards
19 March 1820
REDRUTH, CORNWALL, ENGLAND
father:
Richard Edwards
mother:
Elizabeth
Richard Edwards
25 December 1821
REDRUTH, CORNWALL, ENGLAND
father:
Richard Edwards
mother:
Elizabeth
Patience Edwards
23 November 1830
REDRUTH, CORNWALL, ENGLAND
father:
Richard Edwards
mother:
Elizabeth
Jane Edwards
25 February 1824
REDRUTH, CORNWALL, ENGLAND
father:
Richard Edwards
mother:
Elizabeth
Richard Edwards christening:
23 March 1827
REDRUTH, CORNWALL, ENGLAND
father:
Richard Edwards
mother:
Elizabeth
Richard Henry Edwards
11 June 1829
REDRUTH, CORNWALL, ENGLAND
death:
12 November 1829
father:
Richard Edwards
mother:
Elizabeth
Richard Henry Edwards
16 February 1836
REDRUTH, CORNWALL, ENGLAND
father:
Richard Edwards
mother:
Elizabeth
There seems to be four sons born in the family all named Richard, but the first three have corresponding death records for soon after birth. My ancestor is hopefully the last Richard Henry Edwards, born in 1836, which would match with his marriage record here in australia.
Unfortunately, that is where my search has stopped, as there are quite a few RICHARD + ELIZABETH EDWARDS options to continue my line further.
I have found a marriage for a RICHARD EDWARDS + ELIZABETH JOHNS in 1819 in Redruth, which sounds very promising, but on looking it seems that this Richard edwards when he married Jane was apparently on his third marriage (according to other researchers on ancestry) but the marriage transcript on the OPC does list him as a bachelor. Have I made the right connections with the children and this marriage?
The second question is then when was RICHARD EDWARDS and ELIZABETH (POSS JOHNS) born and to whom. They both state OTP on the marriage transcript, but there are only births that I can find quite a lot earlier on, making them older parents - not immpossible, but uncommon in that time. I have found a birth record for RICHARD in 1788 to HENRY + PATIENCE EDWARDS (which fits nicely with the children's names) and one for ELIZABETH JOHNS (if the mother is elizabeth johns) for 1790, parents RICHARD + JANE (again, fits nicely). Their ages then at marriage and births for the children make them a lot older, which would be okay for RICHARD if he was indeed on his third marriage, but the statement of bachelor and spinster leaves some doubts.
I know RICHARD HENRY EDWARDS immigrated in 1847 to SA, AUSTRALIA along with a JANE EDWARDS + ELIZABETH EDWARDS (his sister, not mother) aboard the BRITISH SOVEREIGN.
Can someone have a look and see if there is anything I have missed or any other theories as to whether the RICHARD + ELIZABETH EDWARDS stated on RICHARD HENRY EDWARDS's marriage cert is the one I have found? And are those births the right ones, even though it does make them a lot older?
Please any help would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi again Juliaana
What makes you think your Richard EDWARDS came to SA on the British Sovereign?
Here is the 1847 passenger list
http://www.slsa.sa.gov.au/fh/passengerlists/1847BritishSovereign.gif
I can't see a Jane or Elizabeth EDWARDS. There is a Richard but he could be attached to another family, and, according to your query he would be 11 (maybe 13 based on his marriage cert). One would have to ask what is an 11/13 year old going to do when he gets to SA?
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Hi again Spike,
For starters, I had trouble finding any other information on an immigration for a Richard Edwards who came to australia prior to marriage in 1853 in Reedy Creek. I found a long ago post on the ancestry board by another researching asking the same question about the identities of the Richard Edwards, who was travelling on the British Sovereign with (I forgot in original post) Patience Edwards; and this is the original post:
Hello listers,
Have we any descendents of the following people?
William Glasson m. Jane Edwards
Edwin Johns m. Elizabeth Edwards
Richard Henry Edwards, who later m. Eizabeth Davey
I believe that Jane, Elizabeth and Richard may have been siblings and arrived together on the British Sovereign 1847with [perhaps] more extended family, from Redruth in Cornwall.
It would be wonderful if others were interested in this family too.
That was what spike my interest Spike (sorry for the pun) as the siblings are all possible matching siblings for my Richard Henry Edwards, plus the time he needs to get to australia isn't great. I have found a census record for 1841 that fits as well for the family:
1841 Census - Redruth District • Redruth, Cornwall, England
Aged 7. Born in county. Residing at Hoskings Row 1 Elizabeth Edwards, 45, BAKER, In county. Jane Edwards, 15, In county. Richard Edwards, 7, In county. Book 14 Folio 8 Page 9
Thoughts?
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Didn't Richard and Elizabeth DAVEY marry in Victoria? Maybe he immigrated there rather than SA.
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OK, this becomes more possible now that we know the "sisters" were married before they came out here.
Have you been able to find the marriages in Cornwall?
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Hello everyone,
I am hoping someone can help me navigate the brick wall I have come up upon in my family research. My ancestor, Richard Henry Edwards, was born abt 1834-1836 in Redruth, Cornwall according to his marriage certificate
Does his marriage certificate give an age?
Richard Henry Edwards and Elizabeth Davey married in Victoria Australia in 1853 Reg 811
So would he be 17? I accept the 19 - at a stretch- for me a pre 1834 birth is more likely.
I like the 1827 at Redruth-St Uny : birth was March 1827. A death in FEB 1829 of a Richard is indeed listed in Redruth-St Uny BUT I have a concern as the stated age is given as 3 and not 23 months or 2 years. I would get a thicker pencil if this was my search. It fits a voyage at age 20 it fits a marriage at age 26.
All findings at FindMyPast as Cornwall OPC is unreachable on my settings right now.
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He says he's 19 on the 1853 marriage certificate.
He's 7 on the 1841 census (if that is him).
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Thanks Spike
Hello listers,
Have we any descendents of the following people?
William Glasson m. Jane Edwards
Edwin Johns m. Elizabeth Edwards
Richard Henry Edwards, who later m. Eizabeth Davey
I believe that Jane, Elizabeth and Richard may have been siblings and arrived together on the British Sovereign 1847with [perhaps] more extended family, from Redruth in Cornwall.
It would be wonderful if others were interested in this family too.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article48543217
This shipping intelligence list will be of interest then
For the British Sovereign.
John Edwards wife and four children, Wm. Edwards, Mary Ann Edwards,
<snip>
Patience Edwards, Peter Eddy, Wm. Glasson and wife, Richard Edwards,
<snip>
These are the only Edwards on the BS
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David,
I'm not sure that John Edwards is related. His wife is Ann Pearson (from memory).
The possibly relevant (or not) passengers are Mrs William Glasson, nee Jane EDWARDS and Mrs Edwin/Edward Johns, nee Elizabeth EDWARDS.
http://www.familyhistorysa.info/shipping/passengerlists.html (surname Edwards)
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David,
I'm not sure that John Edwards is related. His wife is Ann Pearson (from memory).
The possibly relevant (or not) passengers are Mrs William Glasson, nee Jane EDWARDS and Mrs Edwin/Edward Johns, nee Elizabeth EDWARDS.
http://www.familyhistorysa.info/shipping/passengerlists.html (surname Edwards)
Hi everyone, thank you all for your input so far,
Also don't forget Patience Edwards; she is listed as travelling also on the British Sovereign along with the others, and also is one of the possible 'siblings' who came to SA. Yes, the marriage cert does have RICHARD HENRY EDWARDS stating his age as 19; his wife (ELIZABETH DAVEY) was, according to her, 16 at marriage. And I do have a copy of the cert, so I can confirm, which means that RICHARD HENRY EDWARDS does fit in with the 7-year-old on the census, if my thinking is correct.
I haven't had much luck finding the marriages so far of the siblings, as it seems that the years missing in the REDRUTH OPC are the years that I need - I have had to find all the baptisms to RICHARD EDWARDS + JANE on familysearch (IGI) as they are not listed on the CORNWALL OPC unfortunately. I cannot find RICHARD EDWARDS (SNR) on any census records that match, so I am assuming that he must have died before 1841.
Have I made the right connections so far?
Again thank you all for your input and help; it is much appreciated.
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Thank you for the extra Spike :)
I posted the Edwards names knowing it was possible - and indeed the separated listing would indicate this- that there was no connection.
JuliaAnna , certainly the link between Patience and Richard is there. As you point out there is no definitive.
Just a query , the FS records are they from a reader submission or an archived submission?
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Archived submission David, unfortunately. Here is the link:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/AUS-SAGEN/2001-05/0989415377
It is from 2001 - I tried to contact the asker, but to no avail. I am honestly just after trying to figure out who the parents of RICHARD HENRY EDWARDS were, as they are only listed as RICHARD + ELIZABETH on his marriage certificate. As it is quite a common name, I am struggling with so many possibilites; which is why this link and the possibility that these siblings are the same siblings that are listed as having the same parents when baptised got me a bit excited.
But I have made mistakes before and was not 100% confident with my conclusion, and in particular having the gaps in the REDRUTH OPC, so I needed some help and advice :)
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My apologies JuliaAnna , I meant the IGI submissions.
( I use FamilySearch as the term :) )
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My apologies JuliaAnna , I meant the IGI submissions.
( I use FamilySearch as the term :) )
[/quote
No worries - it is a friday night here :) My fault for misreading!
I can only find the baptisms I originally listed on the IGI at the moment - and yes they are archived submissions the state (from records; not uploaded genealogies)
Is that what you were after David? :)
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Thank you
I see a marriage (Cornwall OPC) in 23.10.1819 Redruth of a Richard Edwards to an Elizabeth Johns
Witnesses Remfry and Lemin
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Yes that is what I have found also. But the problem is (as I said in the original post) is that the only birth I can find for RICHARD EDWARDS in Redruth is in 1788; for ELIZABETH JOHNS it is 1790. This makes them old parents even in today's standards. The marriage record lists them both as a bachelor and spinster, but on ancestry user submitted trees there are a lot of people who are stating that RICHARD EDWARDS born 1788 in Redruth had three marriages with ELIZABETH JOHNS being his third; though none of them list any children. This confused me a lot and made me wonder whether I had made the right connection afterall. Should I be looking in a different parish for the births of these two, if indeed they are the parents of my RICHARD HENRY EDWARDS? they would be almost fifty when they had him (though he is the last son, and fourth and only surviving son named RICHARD)
Thank you all again for your help it really is appreciated :)
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the baptism for Richard Henry Edwards 16 Feb 1836 in Redruth is on the Cornwall Family History Soc Index so taken from the register. It is the same date as the burial of Richard Edwards aged 46.
Copy of the marriage register for the 1819 entry
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01h1p/
Baptisms 1813-1837 are not on the filmed records available from FamilySearch.
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Two for the price of one. Ooops, did I say that out loud.
Thanks osprey, having the father dec'd before the 1841 census is helpful.
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the baptism would have free whenever it took place. I've come across babies being baptised on the same day as their mother was buried, but it may be the first time for the same day as the father being buried.
;)
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Thankyou Osprey I really appreciate you finding that record - it is always nice to see the actual record, rather than just the words on a screen!
Do you all think then that I am right in concluding that RICHARD EDWARDS + ELIZABETH JOHNS are the parents of RICHARD HENRY EDWARDS born 1836 in Redruth, Cornwall? And that the RICHARD EDWARDS B. 1788 + ELIZABETH JOHNS b. 1790 are these said parents baptisms?
Thanks again for all of your help.
:) :)
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Thankyou Osprey I really appreciate you finding that record - it is always nice to see the actual record, rather than just the words on a screen!
Do you all think then that I am right in concluding that RICHARD EDWARDS + ELIZABETH JOHNS are the parents of RICHARD HENRY EDWARDS born 1836 in Redruth, Cornwall?
I would be happy to lick the pencil and make a darker entry on this fact. Given all the coincidental grouping of names on shipping lists and baptisms. 17 at marriage still gives me pause. But we see females as young/younger as that so why not!!
And that the RICHARD EDWARDS B. 1788 + ELIZABETH JOHNS b. 1790 are these said parents baptisms?
Thanks again for all of your help.
:) :)
I would still hesitate on this until I found further confirmation. I too have slight concerns about her childbearing age. Though 44/46 is within the limits :)
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I was concerned about the 16/17 age for marriage, but I think we've established that three of the daughters were 16, incl the one married in Adelaide.
The 1788 bpt for Richard ticks a lot of boxes age-wise incl his age at death. The naming patterns for the children help. One thing that worries me is the gap between the last child bpt in 1836 and the previous in 1829!
I'm happy to accept 48 as the cut off age for childbearing, particularly if they are coming along regularly, although this is not the case here.
The 1790 baptism is an issue. The census says Elizabeth was 45 in 1841 so date of birth is abt 1792 -1796. So it is possible that the bpt and census are not the same Elizabeth.
As David says we need further confirmation. A death prior to 1847 when all her children leave would be handy.
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Thank you David;
Yes that was my thinking also. I just can't find any other records of a RICHARD EDWARDS + ELIZABETH JOHNS baptisms around that time, in that area. Other researchers doing other trees (not following my line) have stated that the marriage between RICHARD + ELIZABETH was the third for richard - which could be very possible, given his age - but he does list BACHELOR on the marriage cert, and the other supposed marriages also occured in the same parish (redruth) so I would assume he wouldn't be able to claim he was a bachelor in the same parish as his other two marriages (but again, I could be completely wrong). As my RICHARD HENRY EDWARDS was the last child and fourth attempt at a surviving RICHARD, it does seem to fit in hesitantly as the parents of RICHARD EDWARDS were HENRY + MARTHA if I remember correctly.
Thoughts everyone? Have a missed a baptism around that time that could be possible for both RICHARD EDWARDS + ELIZABETH JOHNS at all?
I'm used to researching GERMAN records; UK ones are no were near as detailed!
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Thank you David;
Yes that was my thinking also. I just can't find any other records of a RICHARD EDWARDS + ELIZABETH JOHNS baptisms around that time, in that area. Other researchers doing other trees (not following my line) have stated that the marriage between RICHARD + ELIZABETH was the third for richard - which could be very possible, given his age - but he does list BACHELOR on the marriage cert, and the other supposed marriages also occured in the same parish (redruth) so I would assume he wouldn't be able to claim he was a bachelor in the same parish as his other two marriages (but again, I could be completely wrong). As my RICHARD HENRY EDWARDS was the last child and fourth attempt at a surviving RICHARD, it does seem to fit in hesitantly as the parents of RICHARD EDWARDS were HENRY + MARTHA if I remember correctly.
Thoughts everyone? Have a missed a baptism around that time that could be possible for both RICHARD EDWARDS + ELIZABETH JOHNS at all?
I'm used to researching GERMAN records; UK ones are no were near as detailed!
Sorry didn't mean to have GERMAN in capitals; that looks really snooty! The germans are just so particular with any record keeping it is amazing! some of the records I found even had birth weight and mother's lying in period duration listed...
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As my RICHARD HENRY EDWARDS was the last child and fourth attempt at a surviving RICHARD, it does seem to fit in hesitantly as the parents of RICHARD EDWARDS were HENRY + MARTHA if I remember correctly.
I'm used to researching GERMAN records; UK ones are no were near as detailed!
Henry and Patience?
Btw, you can use the modify button to change a post after you have posted it (eg to change German back to lower case.)
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Yes sorry HENRY + PATIENCE :) And thanks i didn't know i could modify :)
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Found Elizabeth and Patience EDWARDS in the 1841 Census living with Andrew and Mary CHAPEL.
Piece: HO107/143/17 Place: Penwith -Cornwall, Redruth, E D: 10
Folio: 10 Page: 13 Address: West End
Elizabeth is listed as a dressmaker. Their ages are 20 and 10. These ages fit the bpt dates on page 1 of this thread.
So we have accounted for the entire family.
Also at this address is Mary JOHNS, dressmaker aged 20. She becomes Elizabeth's sister in law.
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Found Elizabeth and Patience EDWARDS in the 1841 Census living with Andrew and Mary CHAPEL.
Piece: HO107/143/17 Place: Penwith -Cornwall, Redruth, E D: 10
Folio: 10 Page: 13 Address: West End
Elizabeth is listed as a dressmaker. Their ages are 20 and 10. These ages fit the bpt dates on page 1 of this thread.
So we have accounted for the entire family.
Also at this address is Mary JOHNS, dressmaker aged 20. She becomes Elizabeth's sister in law.
Oh - and the mother of the siblings, including RICHARD HENRY EDWARDS is ELIZABETH JOHNS - connection?
Great find Spike!
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Now the question is - is the birth records I have found for RICHARD EDWARDS + ELIZABETH JOHNS the rights ones, even with their age, or did I miss some others? It would be fantastic to go back as far as I could with this line, as my last name is EDWARDS and my father would be thrilled!
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Elizabeth EDWARDS married Edwin JOHNS on 30th August 1846. There is a copy of the marriage certificate attached to a tree on Ancestry. The marriage is on FreeBDM as Sept 1846.
The certificate gives her age as 26 (Edwin is 27) or 1820 so that fits again. Her father is Richard EDWARDS, miner.
His is Bennett JOHNS, miner.
Edwin dies 4th Jul 1855, aged 36.
District: Adelaide Book/Page: 3/152
Elizabeth JOHNS remarries 6th Feb 1862 to Bennat JOHNS at her residence Kapunda.
No age or marital status details given.
His father is William JOHNS, hers is Richard EDWARDS
District: Kapunda Book/Page: 49/65
Elizabeth JOHNS dies 17 Dec 1870
Age: 50y, approx. Birth Year: 1820
Husband Bennett JOHNS
Residence & death place: Moonta
District: Daly
Book/Page: 40/405
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There were a lot of JOHNS in Cornwall. I have different lines in my tree.
I think had there been any other living children they would have turned up by now.
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Great finds thanks Spike!
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Just to tidy up, Jane's death
Jane GLASSON
Death Date: 05 May 1883
Age: 59y (b approx 1824)
Husband William GLASSON
Residence and death place: Near Kapunda
District: Kapunda Book/Page: 128/293
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Thank you so much everyone for all of your help - it has been fantastic :)
Now back to the HENRY DAVEY + MARY ANN SMITH saga...