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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Hampshire & Isle of Wight => Topic started by: AdrianB38 on Thursday 28 January 16 22:25 GMT (UK)
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Private Isaac Pickstock of the 2nd Royal Veterans' Battalion died at Hilsea Depot on or about 28 October 1814, having just returned from garrison duty on Madeira. (From TNA document ref. WO 25/2354 - I suspect he may have been on the depot's books as there was a hospital there.)
I can't find any evidence of his burial - I've looked at "Hampshire Burials" on FindMyPast and can't find him on a name search. I've also tried to browse the 1814 burials in that collection for Portsmouth Royal Garrison, Wymering (which looks like the parish for Hilsea) and Portsea St. Mary (I had to ask for Isa* burials for that one).
Anyone know if "Hampshire Burials" on FindMyPast is complete for that area and era? Or have any idea where else Isaac might be buried?
There's a distinct likelihood he's a Methodist - and since he died owing the Army 18s 7d and his daughter went into the Royal Military Asylum (actually a school, primarily for orphans), I think it unlikely his body went any distance.
Thanks
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I checked the Burial Index CD and there's nothing for Isaac , no surname , 1814 plus/minus 2 years in any parish , nor is there anything for Pickstock. Checking for burials in Wymering in 1814 there's nothing possible apart from one "unknown man " 4 Nov 1814 , aged about 45.
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I checked the Burial Index CD ...
Thanks - so at least we know it's not fallen off in the load into FindMyPast.
Do you know if that Burial Index gives a scope for what it covers? I'm wondering if there are chapels not covered in the Burial Index.
PS - thanks for that spot, but he won't be the "unknown man" at Wymering, as he's only in his mid-twenties. (In the Veterans? Yes, I don't understand that either, but I have his nominal birth-date in the Army records).
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Just had a thought... The Hilsea Depot casualty returns for the month in question show 5 deaths at Hilsea and 4 at Portchester. I can't find any of the 5 Hilsea deaths in FindMyPast's "Hampshire Burials", doing a name search, and I only found 2 of the Portchester deaths - both buried in Portchester parish.
I wonder if the Army had an on-site burial ground somewhere, whose records have been lost?
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Do you know if that Burial Index gives a scope for what it covers? I'm wondering if there are chapels not covered in the Burial Index.
Hampshire Genealogical Society state that it's a " complete index to parish register burial entries in mainland Hampshire , excluding the Isle of Wight " - I suppose that might exclude army burials. I see that there is nothing in Armed Forces Deaths either .
( Not sure why my reply is within the quote but never mind . )
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Thanks - if it were just Isaac missing, then one could believe odd things happened. But seeing several in one month makes me suspect we are missing something like a garrison chapel. Or a register kept by a chaplain at Hilsea that's been lost.
Frankly I get lost between the different varieties of ways that vital events could be recorded for the Army, partly because the data seems to have ended up in different places and getting a precise description for what is held by the GRO (rather than TNA) seems oddly difficult.
I've just found that there are registers of burials, for instance, at TNA in WO 156 - couldn't find anything (in the era relevant to Isaac) for Hilsea, Portsmouth, Portchester. I note that burial registers for the "Garrison Chapel, Portsmouth" are at TNA for 1849 onwards - nothing earlier - while "Hampshire Burials" on FindMyPast has burials for "Portsmouth Royal Garrison" up to 1841, so it looks like there's something missing there, for starters.
Thanks for your help - I'm a bit wiser if no better informed....
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I found this rather old thread which touches on the subject :
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/ENG-HAM-PORTSMOUTH-GOSPORT/2002-04/1018996436
I wonder if emails to HGS and Hampshire Archives would come up with anything ?
Good luck
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Can I make a suggestion? On Facebook you will the Pompey Pals dedicated to the First World War regiments. Some of the members are very well informed. If there was a cemetery attached to the church in what is now Gatcombe Park in use at the time you want they will probably know.
There is also a military cemetery at Haslar. But it is a long way round.
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Thanks guys. That starting statement in the Mailing List thread of 2002, "Henry Light's report (1850) on the state of Portsmouth's burial grounds mentions a military cemetery at Gatcombe, Hilsea. Apparently it was closed after the Napoleonic Wars" looks very interesting. I confess I saw Gatcombe mentioned in Google beforehand, but imagined Google to be concatenating bits about the Gatcombe in Gloucestershire to Hilsea, just by coincidence. I didn't realise there was a Gatcombe down there.
I'm getting the impression from other bits in Google that there was a lot at Hilsea in the Napoleonic era, but most of it disappeared. And then, rather later, fortifications came along - and from memory there was a garrison church (St. Barbara?) associated with that lot, constructed of corrugated iron ("Tin Tabernacles" I've heard them called).
I'll see if the appropriate Record Office catalogues show anything then do some more enquiries. Thanks again. Glad someone knows the area!
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Do the military records list the cause of death for Isaac Pickstock
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No cause of death shown, I'm afraid. On arrival of Portsmouth from Madeira, he was one of ten soldiers described as "Sent on Shore Sick" to Hilsea. Three of Isaac's comrades from the 2nd Royal Veterans Battalion are recorded as dying there in that month.
Incidentally, I've seen no evidence anywhere of Sarah's death, other than the evidence (clear to me) that both of Charlotte's parents were dead when she was admitted to the Royal Military Asylum school / children's home in January 1815. This suggests that either Sarah died in England soon after arrival back from Madeira and was buried in the same military cemetery as Isaac, a cemetery whose records seem to be lost. Or she died previously in Madeira - and again, there is no sign of her death there but I don't know if the British Army related records from there survive. They're not obvious if they do....
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Thanks. I guessed that was the case for Isaac. Is the military cemetery still in existence? My daughter lives in Brighton and perhaps she could make a trip to the cemetery and see if she can find any gravestones with the information we are interested in.
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Apparently not. I think I remember reading that the local expert in the cemeteries and graveyards of the area, who started the thread from 2002 that I mentioned above, had never heard of it until he found that reference. When he walked the alleged site, he saw no trace of anything.
I've failed so far to find any trace of a burial register.
The whole area was a major facility during the Napoleonic Wars, but afterwards, most was cleared away until the area was refortified much later on in the 1800s.
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Nearly forgotten I wanted to contact the Archives about this but I have done so now. Hampshire Archives had nothing relevant and referred me to Portsmouth History Centre.
I today received an interesting reply from them - in the negative as far as burial records are concerned, but useful background. So with grateful thanks to Anna Delaney of Portsmouth History Centre, I shall quote or summarise her response.
Firstly PHC don't have any burial records for the military cemetery at Gatcombe, Hilsea. Further: "The National Archives only appears to have baptisms and marriages for the Hilsea Garrison from 1877 and the Church of St Barbara wasn't established until 1888."
The 1850 document by Henry Slight referenced in the linked Mailing List of 2002, is to be found at Portsmouth History Centre and is apparently hand-written with a challenging style! But from what Anna could make out, she transcribed:
"The cemetery of Gatcombe is at the very verge of the Municipal Borough at Hilsea. This had been a burial place for many ages… During the last century and part of the present it served a [like?] purpose for the [illegible] bodies of troops both [illegible] and militia who occupied the Barracks adjoining…After the peace of 1814 it was of an [illegible] and now in 1849 presents to view a large green meadow very much elevated above the turnpike and the adjoining fields. The field is now the property of the [illegible] Board of Ordnance. The funeral rites were performed by the military chaplains and no fees were paid."
This document has no details of individual burials.
End of their response
Again, grateful thanks to Portsmouth History Centre for that. At least we have confirmation that military chaplains were involved. Whether any of the various lists at Kew for Hilsea Depot might contain an elusive burial list in the middle of something else, I have no idea. I do know that WO12/12957 Hilsea etc Muster Lists, had, at the start of the "Q4" list for 1814, a loose sheet with a list of deaths at Porchester General Hospital for 1814 in regimental order. My guy wasn't in that lot, I'm just using it as an illustration that not everything in the box was what it said on the tin (to mix metaphors).
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Adrian, Sincere thanks for contacting the Portsmouth History Centre and posting the details of Anna Delaney's response.