RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: DavidG02 on Sunday 24 January 16 08:27 GMT (UK)
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Saw a quote by 3SillyDogs in another thread which meshed with some recent news and other random thoughts.
Record keeping may be better now, but as said with marriage on the decline and donors and surrogates and adoptions across cultures genealogy has the possibility to be even more entertaining/challenging for future generations
Then there is Simon Watson
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-35262535
From 2012 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertold_Wiesner
In other recent threads and topics we have talked about Distinctive First and Middle names and how , while they seemingly should be easier to search, they are still difficult to find , due to at times mistranscribing names and a genuine belief that ''it should be spelt differently''
But what about '' bogan/chav/redneck names'' or the African-American distinctive naming styles. How will future transcribers interpret DayShawna or Tiffernee or Bow?
While the offspring of Simon Watson and Bertold Weisner can be found through DNA it may not be easily recognized until a test is taken and a cuckoo event is spotted.
Then , as has been in the past, if the father isn't added to a BC what means do we have?
What other barriers can you see to genealogists in our families in 2215?
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Will genealogy programs accept same sex marriages/partnerships?
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RootsMagic quite happily accepts a spouse of the same sex ;D
And, whether you add a marriage or not is your choice.
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That's good to know. I feel this will become a more commonplace thing in our research in the future.
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How will future family historians trace our "professional" welfare recipients, with multiple children from multiple fathers? Names on birth certificates may not be the same as those used in life.
This is not intended as a jibe or judgement, simply an observation. :)
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oh yes 5 children from 3 fathers etc?
As long as the documentation is correct then it should be ok
Another I have thought of , in line with this , are cuckoo events in Maintenance Orders. What do people think of compulsory DNA testing for ALL newborns?
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In the future children will get an implant at birth (like dogs have) that can be scanned at any time,saying who their ancestors were back to 1700.They will also hold info such as blood group,allergies etc etc ;D ;D ;D
If only they did that back in the 1800's,we'd all have our family histories done and dusted by now!
Carol (with her tongue firmly in her cheek) 8)
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It is all a bit of a dilemma isn't it! I'm thinking something I'm finding difficult to put into words here, but I'll, try, and see if you get my drift! Pure fictional scenario but the way, but I think a distinct possibility.
A married woman, married for 3 years, gives birth to a child. Her husband is named as father, but this woman knows that there is a possibility that the father could also be one of two other men that she had a relationship with (unknown to her husband). So we have your "cuckoo in the nest".
Then we have other single mothers who may genuinely not know who the father is! Certainly not unusual! And you might get a woman who just creates a fictional father!
Maybe a simple DNA test to prove or disprove parenthood if a father is named, if it became compulsory, before registration, it may make people be a little more careful - but then the pill was supposed to take care of that one 😄
Surrogacy and donor, if not done openly and legally, could certainly prove to be a whole can of worms!
Don't know if I've actually been able to put my thoughts on it all into words, but as I said, you might get my drift! 😄
Five more replies while I was typing this, I'm not going to try and change it now" ;D
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Glad to see I'm not the only one who gets replies in while they're still typing..... :)
I have joked for years that our kids will need to see DNA tests from their prospective partners, just to make sure there is no close family connection ( not inferring that I have any extras out there of course).
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Glad to see I'm not the only one who gets replies in while they're still typing..... :)
I have joked for years that our kids will need to see DNA tests from their prospective partners, just to make sure there is no close family connection ( not inferring that I have any extras out there of course).
I think you have really hit on something worrying there - specially if there are others about like that 'egotist' Simon Watson . . . . while he might delight in have 1000 offspring, it could make it difficult for people to make sure they are not marrying/having children with someone who is not closely related to them.
I forsee shoals ahead.
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With the so called "liberation" of society a lot of the norms that we knew and lived by are starting to become dinosaurs. People having children without the sanctity of marriage, same sex partners, and these partners adopting or having surrogate produced children either with or without their own genetic contributions, cross culture adoptions etc.
I can hear our ancestors turning in their graves........ ;D ;D ;D
(I always thought I was the only one who got a warning about a message being posted ;D ;D)
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That makes 3 in the club now, 3SD. You, Jaybelnz and myself.
Any other prospective members?
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I think it depends on what you see as Family History?
Is it blood-lines, or nurture lines? ;D
It must have happened many, many times in the past, where a husband was assumed to be the father, but the actual father may have been somebody else!
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I have a scenario where father of child had 2 children in a previous marriage.
Oldest child having a child of their own prior to half sibling's birth.
So father's 3rd child is younger than his grandchild ::)
I can see future generations scratching their heads ;D
At least we can forewarn them to be in the same household on census night giving their relationships just to "clarify" ;D ;D
Annie
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I can see future generations scratching their heads ;D
At least we can forewarn them to be in the same household on census night giving their relationships just to "clarify" ;D ;D
It is our genealogy gift to them ;D ;D
Census doesn't help in South Africa, they are destroyed as soon as the data is extracted. It makes me want to weep at all the valuable information that has been lost for generations. ??? :'( :'(
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This sounds suspiciously like folk from my past - Janet MacKenzie died age 34 in the Brechin poorhouse in 1884 she left behind four young children. None of the children's birth certificates indicate a father. Given the middle names of the children there could be three man involved. It's a very similar story with Janet's paternal grandmother.
Jen
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It must have happened many, many times in the past, where a husband was assumed to be the father, but the actual father may have been somebody else!
That's why I smile when people say that they are only interested in tracing a paternal line! At least with tracing the maternal as well there is a good chance that you are looking at the correct family.
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Census doesn't help in South Africa, they are destroyed as soon as the data is extracted. It makes me want to weep at all the valuable information that has been lost for generations. ??? :'( :'(
Similar here in Oz. Its use is statistical not genealogical
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How will future family historians trace our "professional" welfare recipients, with multiple children from multiple fathers? Names on birth certificates may not be the same as those used in life.
This is not intended as a jibe or judgement, simply an observation. :)
Many years ago when I was working in the medical sphere, we had a young lady who had multiple children by multiple fathers. When she was first pregnant, the reputed father ditched her; she took up with next guy who consented to have his name as father of the child when born. Then he ditched her after she got pregnant with his child, and so on it went, down the line. So all these children had fathers named on their birth certificates, who are not their father at all! I often wonder if their mother ever told them the truth ??? ??? ???
Dawn M
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As has been said, society has been 'liberated' progessively since WW2, with a steady dwindling of deference to 'authority'. I can't help wondering how complete our census is, and whether there are a few million more people in UK than we imagine. As so many people only register their partnerships (of whatever kind) if and when they feel inclined, what about births? (I guess most deaths will get dealt with somehow) :P
But I don't believe it didn't happen in the 19th century. There is no record of the birth of one of my gt-gt-aunts in Devon in 1845. At that time, if a family just didn't get round to registering a birth, what difference did it make to anything important? They probably considered baptism of more value.
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At that time, if a family just didn't get round to registering a birth, what difference did it make to anything important? They probably considered baptism of more value.
I agree that the issues of the past are similar. I cant find a birth record for my grandmother. Not an official one. It may well be in a Catholic Church record somewhere.
What about the American Survivalists or those who disagree with Government Regulation? Its an interesting future
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Another I have thought of , in line with this , are cuckoo events in Maintenance Orders. What do people think of compulsory DNA testing for ALL newborns?
why not a triangle as well?? ::)
Kind regards
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Thank you for your valued response
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I can see future generations scratching their heads ;D
At least we can forewarn them to be in the same household on census night giving their relationships just to "clarify" ;D ;D
It is our genealogy gift to them ;D ;D
Census doesn't help in South Africa, they are destroyed as soon as the data is extracted. It makes me want to weep at all the valuable information that has been lost for generations. ??? :'( :'(
Same in NZ, destroyed after statistics are done!. We have to rely on Electoral Rolls!
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(Being long-winded, I've several time got warnings that a new post is "in" whilst I'm still typing - even though I type quickly)
I suspect that 100 years hence there simply will not be genealogy as we know it. After all, when we've documented all trees to date (accurately, of course), then between uncertainty of parentage, and the trick so perfected with the "Doomsday" project, of making sure that the machines-to-read-the-computerised-information become obsolete/unavailable, then there simply will BE no genealogy research - and no "Rootschat", either.
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Welcome to the "posts while you were typing" club, ThrelfallYorky. ;D
And I think I agree with you; who knows where society and technology will go? The only thing that keeps me thinking we will still have records and data in the future is the Big Brother concept. Governments and companies (think Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple) already want to know everything about us. I can't see this changing in the future.
And regarding documentation in the past, what about imagined fathers on marriage certificates, to hide illegitimacy? Or a husband who had died or deserted still named on a birth certificate, for the sake of propriety?
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You're quite right TY! And for those of us who have already done the hard yards, all our own descendants will need to do is add to it as they go along!
I think we should try to ensure that the message, and hard copies as well as tech ones, are handed down through our present and future generations, that someone in each family volunteers, or is nominated, to take responsibility for and be the faithful recorder and keeper of the treasure! 😄😄
Will that work in my family?? I truly don't know! ;D ;D ;D
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Or at least keep everything in a box clearly labelled Family history so that whoever decides to be interested when they have time to pursue this hobby knows where to find it all - providing they can access it that is.
But just think of the fun we are doing them out of! ;D
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..... The only thing that keeps me thinking we will still have records and data in the future is the Big Brother concept. Governments and companies (think Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Apple) already want to know everything about us. I can't see this changing in the future.....
They want get into our heads and sell us stuff. ;D They don't care about our dear departed especially from centuries ago.
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And because of that they want to know as much about us as they can. ;)
Call me suspicious, but this big push by Ancestry to send in your DNA sounds suspect too, in this context.
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Just remember that the internet is only as good as the data on it!
If Ancestry's Trees are anything to go by, future generations will have one heck of a data-cleaning job!! ;D
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A bit naughty, but wouldn't it be fun to create an absolutely fictitious tree on a certain public platform! A tree with a huge diversity of people, unusual happenings, good and bad, and loads of photos and misinformation! Then sit back and wait for the comments and enquiries, and keep up the fiction unreservedly!
Oh wait a minute, that sounds a bit like mine ??? (Not really)
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A bit naughty, but wouldn't it be fun to create an absolutely fictitious tree on a certain public platform! A tree with a huge diversity of people, unusual happenings, good and bad, and loads of photos and misinformation! Then sit back and wait for the comments and enquiries, and keep up the fiction unreservedly!
Oh wait a minute, that sounds a bit like mine ??? (Not really)
It's already been done to death by a few hundred (thousand?) public trees you-know-where. ;)
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;D ;D ;D
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You're quite right TY! And for those of us who have already done the hard yards, all our own descendants will need to do is add to it as they go along!
Like a family bible?
I think we should try to ensure that the message, and hard copies as well as tech ones, are handed down through our present and future generations, that someone in each family volunteers, or is nominated, to take responsibility for and be the faithful recorder and keeper of the treasure! 😄😄
Will that work in my family?? I truly don't know! ;D ;D ;D
We have already been told - or noticed- that others don't share our enthusiasm for FH so to find that person to do this can be a difficult job- and how long will they do it for?
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Our youngest son shows a passing interest in his family history so perhaps when my time is done I will leave it all to him, with a copy to the local historical society as well. Maybe I might relent and give a copy to SAGHS. ::)
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A bit naughty, but wouldn't it be fun to create an absolutely fictitious tree on a certain public platform! A tree with a huge diversity of people, unusual happenings, good and bad, and loads of photos and misinformation! Then sit back and wait for the comments and enquiries, and keep up the fiction unreservedly!
;D ;D Yes Jaybel,
It could be fun but...........the reason all these trees are like "monkey trees" is because there is no real interaction/communication/comparing notes etc. & that's the problem.
So, your fictitious tree would soon appear elsewhere by those people who take the info. & run.
I doubt you would get any enquiries as these people don't make/want to make time to check things out as it's all there on the plate & no need for a knife & fork to cut the truth from the untruth as it all looks well presented & inviting for the taking ::)
I think you know what I mean ???
Annie
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I have to say that would be even more fun (in a devilish sort of way), to see a deliberately fictitious tree copied and adopted.
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My thoughts too! I'd even create myself a different user name, and abuse them for stealing stuff from my tree without checking, then give them more false nonsense info! 😄 Serve them right!
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The family Bible has been, I am sure, a source of valuable information that we would not have about our early settler forefathers. It was possibly the only way they had to record BMD's until formal methods were introduced as towns grew, and when they decided to move on to regions unkown across the plains for what ever reasons they had, it was the only way to keep records. These books were often beautifully bound in leather. I have seen some wonderful examples donated to museums.
These days we merely trot along to the local registry office, register what we have to and it's done.
Perhaps we will all end up with micro chips inserted at birth (like the pet identi chips we have now)
I for one thank those forefathers or I might still be looking for some of mine and hubby's ancestors ;D
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How will future family historians trace our "professional" welfare recipients, with multiple children from multiple fathers? Names on birth certificates may not be the same as those used in life.
This is not intended as a jibe or judgement, simply an observation. :)
What does this mean, please?
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The biggest barriers to genealogy in the future are people including genealogists who think basic facts like names, dates of birth or dates of marriage are private.
Even on forums we have people who hide behind pseudonyms rather that use their real name, few have a good reason for not using their real name, but that is their choice.
Illegitimacy was never a problem before the Victorian hypocrisy made it so, the problem before was not children being illegitimate but the parents or rather the father not providing for his children.
Countries like Australia are so paranoid about their ex-convict population that they destroy all information gathered as soon as they have gleaned numerical statistics from the information. The irony is their indigenous population have an oral heritage that goes back centuries and even that is being destroyed by the immigrants’ privacy ideals.
Many countries claim to be free but in reality they can never be free until people see the futility in privacy, secrecy destroys life and destroys history, whether that is the history of the country, the family or the individual.
Cheers
Guy
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Well said, Guy.
ScouseBoy, I was trying to be as polite and PC as I could. Single mothers having children with different fathers, and names used in life not matching their birth certificates; eg the father's surname used on the birth certificate, but the child then goes to school using either the mother's surname, or her current boyfriend's. Trust me, this happens.
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Countries like Australia are so paranoid about their ex-convict population that they destroy all information gathered as soon as they have gleaned numerical statistics from the information. The irony is their indigenous population have an oral heritage that goes back centuries and even that is being destroyed by the immigrants’ privacy ideals.
Cheers
Guy
Rubbish, the Privacy/Data Protection laws in Australia generally only relate to the living and generally mean that if you are required to give information to an entity such as a Government Dept, a business large or small. or an organisation then that entity cannot pass your information to a third party without your permission.
If I fill in a form which states it is Confidential or Private then I expect that to be the case. I don't expect the information to be released to some distant relative or Genealogist just because they need it for their research.
The first Australian census was in 1911, prior to that there were a number of State censuses a few of which have survived and are publicly available. Australian census forms were destroyed up until 1996 but since then people have been asked about retention of information for release after 99 years. For those that said yes their forms were filmed. In 2001 some 54% said yes, it was a bit higher in 2006 and I haven't seen a figure for 2011. As far as I'm aware Australia is the only country that actually asks people if it is okay to release there census information in the future.
As far as the past is concerned you will find that there is a lot of information publicly available, the National and various State Achives are full of publicly available records, in fact many Australians are proud of their convict ancestors and have researched them in detail.
Andy
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Rubbish, the Privacy/Data Protection laws in Australia generally only relate to the living and generally mean that if you are required to give information to an entity such as a Government Dept, a business large or small. or an organisation then that entity cannot pass your information to a third party without your permission.
If I fill in a form which states it is Confidential or Private then I expect that to be the case. I don't expect the information to be released to some distant relative or Genealogist just because they need it for their research.
The first Australian census was in 1911, prior to that there were a number of State censuses a few of which have survived and are publicly available. Australian census forms were destroyed up until 1996 but since then people have been asked about retention of information for release after 99 years. For those that said yes their forms were filmed. In 2001 some 54% said yes, it was a bit higher in 2006 and I haven't seen a figure for 2011. As far as I'm aware Australia is the only country that actually asks people if it is okay to release there census information in the future.
As far as the past is concerned you will find that there is a lot of information publicly available, the National and various State Achives are full of publicly available records, in fact many Australians are proud of their convict ancestors and have researched them in detail.
Andy
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Yes I should have said were rather than are.
However if you look at the history of acknowledgement of convict ancestors in Australia you will find it was not until the mid to late 1980s that people started ackowledging or coming to terms with their convict ancestors.
That in terms of legislation is virtually yesterday.
If the Australian people and government had been so at ease with it in the past none of the census would have been destroyed.
Have you ever asked yourself why was the LDS forbidden to sell their Australian Vital Records Index (released in 1997) in Australia if the attitude was so liberal?
Cheers
Guy
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After reading some of the suggestions on this thread my imagination is now running riot. Several years ago my uni son was stranded on the continent after somebody stole his passport. Is this person now living a parallel life using our family name and in a few generations time will one of his descendants trace his lineage back to me and then attach his family to my ancestry?
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So are you saying Guy, that the reason the Australian censuses were destroyed was because the government/people could not accept their convict past? :-\
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I have to agree with Andycand, if I fill in a form that says it is private and confidential I expect that information to stay that way and not be passed on to a third party. I am also wary of where I post personal information on the internet and for that reason I use a psuedonym on forums etc. I use the same one everwhere so I am easily identifiable by those who frequent the same forums etc that I do. There many cases of identity theft and so it does not hurt to be cautious.
South Africa also routinely destroys the census documents once the data has been extracted so they are not available to genealogists. I think it is a shame, because if the 99 year were applied as in other coutries it would be a valuable resource.
Identity theft is a problem world wide and the scenario put forward by Rena is entirely possible.......
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Guy
You always bring a reasoned response and I enjoy your input. :)
You are correct as to the recent re-evaluation of our convict heritage. So much so an apocryphal story goes that a husband contacted a Family Historian complaining that she told the wife she had 2 convicts in her family. When the FH said that she wouldn't hide the facts the husband responded
'' no I'm not worried about that I want you to find me more than her'' :D
The irony is their indigenous population have an oral heritage that goes back centuries and even that is being destroyed by the immigrants’ privacy ideals.
I will question the accuracy and the need to highlight the oral tradition of the aboriginals while trying to link it to privacy laws. Certainly the oral tradition is dying but that is more to do with trying to westernize the population rather than any issues to do with privacy
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Even on forums we have people who hide behind pseudonyms rather that use their real name, few have a good reason for not using their real name, but that is their choice.
I really can't see what harm there is in that. It is far too easy to find out every detail about people on line, so I dont see why I should make it even easier by using my real name. Once anyone does that, it doesn't take those of us who are used to searching records to find details of their immediate family through using the clues they give, either through general chat or through their posts asking for look ups.
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The Irish 61 and 71 censuses were destroyed too. :-\
...... Countries like Australia are so paranoid about their ex-convict population that they destroy all information gathered as soon as they have gleaned numerical statistics from the information. The irony is their indigenous population have an oral heritage that goes back centuries and even that is being destroyed by the immigrants’ privacy ideals.///
Please explain?
I thought that censuses were to obtain statistical information about the population rather than being a tool for genealogists ... and once the information was gathered it was deemed unnecessary to retain the census forms.
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If the Australian people and government had been so at ease with it in the past none of the census would have been destroyed.
Cheers
Guy
There were a lot of reasons ( according to wiki) why the Australian Gov destroyed census records. Not sure ''feelings'' would be a very high priority.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Census_in_Australia
Destruction of census forms
From 1971 to 1996 the ABS had a policy of destruction of the original census forms and their electronic representations, as well as field records. Prior to that it appears there was no explicit policy of destruction, but most material had been destroyed because of lack of storage facilities. However the 2001 census offered, for the first time, an option to have personal data archived by the National Archives of Australia and released to the public 99 years later, and in 2001 54% of Australians agreed to do so.
The reason for the destruction from 1971 to 1996 is also discussed in the same article
In the 1970s there was public debate about privacy and the census. In 1979 the Law Reform Commission reported on Privacy and the Census.[11] One of the key elements under question was the inclusion of names. It was found that excluding names reduced the accuracy of the data; individuals were more likely to leave questions blank and post-enumeration surveys would not be possible.
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Even on forums we have people who hide behind pseudonyms rather that use their real name, few have a good reason for not using their real name, but that is their choice.
I really can't see what harm there is in that. It is far too easy to find out every detail about people on line, so I dont see why I should make it even easier by using my real name. Once anyone does that, it doesn't take those of us who are used to searching records to find details of their immediate family through using the clues they give, either through general chat or through their posts asking for look ups.
I agree with Groom, I really don't see what the harm is. For the record there are only three births in the whole of England & Wales with my first name and surname (different middle names) and we were all born within 6 years of each other. Sorry Guy but I'm not going to use my true name when it isn't going take even the newest of researchers very long to work out who I am.
If people choose to use their real name online that's up to them, but for one I'm not going to be stupid enough to make it even easier for the spammers and con artists to identify me by using mine. Everyone using their real names isn't going to reduce the problem, just make it considerably worse.
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Can't say it bother me, almost using my full name!
There are 4 births with my exact forename (in fact I keep getting Gmail for one of the others!), and 14 male births with my initial, plenty of female births, and I suspect a few more married women.
But each to their own.
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But each to their own.
Yes each to their own. That's your choice, as will be Guy's in using his full name. If people wish to use their real name I don't have any issue, I just choose not to. However, those of us who don't shouldn't be criticised for not doing so but Guy seems to have a bee in his bonnet about this as its not the first time he's raised the subject on Rootschat. ::)
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When I first posted here I used my full name. I changed it more because of a preference to be known by a first name rather than last. A fairly good guess by looking at my surname interests would give my name.
I have had this discussion with another poster. It was pointed out that using the SA BDM facility run by SAGHS that my sons name and my ex wifes name are available if you know where to look. I have myself used this facility to find information on side branches - more to complete a line than any desire to know ''all about them''
I do recognize the ease with which someone can use my info to create an identity for themselves. My only comment would be caveat emptor ;) I am comfortable enough that the risk/reward of playing on this wonderful thing called the internet can be managed
Haha like smudwhisk I am more annoyed by spam than identity theft :D
One thing I can say is that sites like Facebook wont be barriers to the future as everything is on there and I mean everything. And how grandma is going to explain those booty shots to her great grandchildren one can only guess
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But each to their own.
Yes each to their own. That's your choice, as will be Guy's in using his full name. If people wish to use their real name I don't have any issue, I just choose not to. However, those of us who don't shouldn't be criticised for not doing so but Guy seems to have a bee in his bonnet about this as its not the first time he's raised the subject on Rootschat. ::)
To be fair to Guy he is consistent. He has a position and he has used it to benefit us as amateur genealogists , so I give him a tick
Also Guys name is his business - in a business sense- if his name is out there people will contact him because of past associations- and good luck to him for that.
Should he be less strident? Possibly , but I tend to let it go at times :)
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I agree Guy is consistent. I just wish he would be quite so forceful with his opinions on certain things.
Even if people legally had to use their real names online, I can guarantee that the scammers and fraudsters would find a way to avoid this (no system is absolutely fullproof), and therefore that removes the alleged reasoning behind people always using their real names - namely you could guarantee you knew who you were dealing with.
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In England & Wales you have the right to call yourself anything you like, as long as there is no intention to deceive or defraud.
So, why should online use of names be any different? :D
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Exacly, which is why I can't quite undertand why Guy has such a bee in his bonnet on the subject.
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If one has a job or profession that is somewhat in the Public Eye, as well as an unusual name,I see it as perfectly acceptable to use a pseudonym. Or simply use one if one prefers to do so. Why on earth should perfectly polite, well-mannered users of sites have to use their accurate name?
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But each to their own.
Yes each to their own. That's your choice, as will be Guy's in using his full name. If people wish to use their real name I don't have any issue, I just choose not to. However, those of us who don't shouldn't be criticised for not doing so but Guy seems to have a bee in his bonnet about this as its not the first time he's raised the subject on Rootschat. ::)
To be fair to Guy he is consistent. He has a position and he has used it to benefit us as amateur genealogists , so I give him a tick
Also Guys name is his business - in a business sense- if his name is out there people will contact him because of past associations- and good luck to him for that.
Should he be less strident? Possibly , but I tend to let it go at times :)
No my name is not my business, my business has its own name and only carries my name on it's website to comply with UK business law.
Cheers
Guy
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I agree Guy is consistent. I just wish he would be quite so forceful with his opinions on certain things.
Even if people legally had to use their real names online, I can guarantee that the scammers and fraudsters would find a way to avoid this (no system is absolutely fullproof), and therefore that removes the alleged reasoning behind people always using their real names - namely you could guarantee you knew who you were dealing with.
I don't doubt scammers and fraudsters would find there way round such a requirement.
However that is not the point.
First, as a child I was always taught that it was polite to introduce myself to people on meeting them. If I cannot even trust people to know my name why should they put their trust in me?
Second, If someone offers their name to me and I respond by giving them a false name I insult them, as I am saying they cannot be trusted with my name.
Third, in situations where secrecy and cover ups is the norm. People are not alarmed to discover secrecy or cover ups. That allows those who are less than honest to thrive as people do not find secrecy and deception out of the ordinary.
Fourth, if I use my real name on forums and in correspondence people can hold me to account. If I libel someone they can take action against me.
Fifth, I cannot take one view on one forum and the opposite view on another forum as people would quickly point out the discrepancies.
There are five reasons why I use my real name online the main one being I trust each and every member of this forum with my name, by doing so I make myself accountable for my words. I cannot write something then disclaim it somewhere else, as it has my name on it. To some people that does not matter to me it does.
If I write something embarrassing I have to live with the knowledge that everyone can see what I have written and therefore take me to task over it, today or in the future.
Cheers
Guy
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Can't believe what I'm reading.
A fun topic turned on it's head into a full blown debate on something which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic in question.
But what I will say is this.....
I don't think my future descendants would be interested that I use pseudonyms from time to time on forums as it is no different to people being known by/using nicknames, petnames or acting names etc.
Some people it seems, have a need to take things to extremes & out of context quite frequently, show no sense of humour & continually look for flaws!!!
Annie/Rosinish/Ammack :P
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Guy,
You do have a point in your last post about using one's real name. However, in today's world it gets a bit more complicated when spammers, fraudsters and identity thieves trawl the internet for names and information. That is why I use a screen name. I do however use the same screen name on any online forum, so if anyone happens to go to various reptile forums, you may come across "Pinefamily" there; and yes, that's me too. ;D
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Getting back to the topic, the growing demise of baptisms, and church records in general, will take away one avenue of research for future family historians.
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There won't be the need for Baptisms as everything is statutory now.
The Telephone Directory is also going to flounder with the use of mobiles & no tracking of numbers ;D
However, there will be plenty to be had with newspapers.
Annie
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Yes and no. People will still be reported in newspaper articles, but even BDM events are a diminishing thing in the papers.
And in our lifetime, newspapers and magazines will become electronic.
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Have you ever asked yourself why was the LDS forbidden to sell their Australian Vital Records Index (released in 1997) in Australia if the attitude was so liberal?
Cheers
Guy
I would suggest that the reason is more likely commercial, historical BMD Indexes for most States have been available on CD for many years. No doubt the company that produced the CDs would have entered into a contract with the relevant State whereas the LDS would not have. Now most States have historical indexes online, and free.
Andy
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I don't think BMD events are diminishing at all!
There will still be a legal obligation to register a Birth, and a Death (no death cert; no burial!).
I'm even hopeful about Marriages - as the world accepts all kinds of partnerships, a legal document will still be required to show the legality of such partnerships.
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I think what Pinefamily meant is that Births, Marriages and Deaths aren't announced in newspapers as much as they used to be. In future years people will be able to find them on Facebook! ;D
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Not sure if its been raised already or not, but one barrier to future researchers will be when couples choose to have their marriage ceremony overseas. I know a few couples who have opted for this, often because its cheaper than a wedding at home. As far as I'm aware there is no requirement for the marriage to be registered with the home authorities, so it obviously won't be so easy for future researchers to track down.
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That had crossed my mind as well. I have a friend who married in America, but not only that, she opted to continue to use her maiden name as she didn't like his surname. So there is probably no chance of any one in the future finding that she was ever married.
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A 3rd cousin of mine kept her maiden name when she married and her husband took her surname. Their children are registered with the mother's maiden name the same as their surname so to all intents and purpose they look likely to be illegitimate. :-X Its not even like her surname was that unusual, although admittedly as his was Williams, I suppose something not quite so common was perhaps prefered. It may have been better if they'd double-barrelled it instead. In that case, at least the fact that part of the surname was also the maiden name may have given a future researcher a clue as to what was going on. ;D
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On a similar note, a uni friend of mine shortened her surname while at university removing the "bottom" off the surname. Her shorter surname is less unusual than her birth surname. Some poor researcher in the future has little chance of probably tracking her forward or her children backwards on their mother's line because of the change unless they were aware of it. :-\ Even if change of name by deed poll records become publically available in the future, she married in a different part of the country so it's less likely a researcher would make the connection anyway.
Mind you, lets face it our ancestors were quite good at doing similar things in the past anyway. ;D One of my ancestors appears to have taken the surname of his half siblings' father even though none of the siblings was born in wedlock and were all baptised with their mother's surname. We only solved the mystery when we came across his half siblings mass baptism which mentioned their reputed father's name. Then everything fell into place because one of my ancestor's daughters was visiting her father's half sibling on a later census which gave away a family connection. As my ancestor was 8 years older than the oldest of his half siblings, its unlikely that their father's was also his, although not impossible because his half sibling's father was the husband of their mother's aunt, albeit the aunt was deceased when the younger siblings were born. It's not impossible he was mucking around with the neice before his wife's death. :-X
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My thoughts too! I'd even create myself a different user name, and abuse them for stealing stuff from my tree without checking, then give them more false nonsense info! 😄 Serve them right!
LOL, that's too funny!
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one barrier to future researchers will be when couples choose to have their marriage ceremony overseas. As far as I'm aware there is no requirement for the marriage to be registered with the home authorities, so it obviously won't be so easy for future researchers to track down.
I was married overseas but still had to post Banns with local Registry Office. Not sure if something will be recorded but I shall give them a call next week to find out. I am Scottish which may be different from England/Wales/N Ireland?
Annie
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Not sure if its been raised already or not, but one barrier to future researchers will be when couples choose to have their marriage ceremony overseas. I know a few couples who have opted for this, often because its cheaper than a wedding at home. As far as I'm aware there is no requirement for the marriage to be registered with the home authorities, so it obviously won't be so easy for future researchers to track down.
That had crossed my mind as well. I have a friend who married in America, but not only that, she opted to continue to use her maiden name as she didn't like his surname. So there is probably no chance of any one in the future finding that she was ever married.
I was married overseas but still had to post Banns with local Registry Office. Not sure if something will be recorded but I shall give them a call next week to find out
Bali/Indonesian info
http://bali.indonesia.embassy.gov.au/blli/marriage.html
In order for an Australian citizen (or a permanent resident who is domiciled in Australia) to marry in Bali or NTB, it is necessary to make an application at the Consulate for a Certificate of No Impediment to Marriage. Persons who wish to marry in other provinces of Indonesia are advised to contact the Australian Embassy, Jakarta. Nationals of other countries should check the requirements for their nationality with their nearest Embassy or Consulate.
Australian citizens (and permanent residents who are domiciled in Australia) should apply to the Consulate in person during public office hours. In most cases the certificate can be processed on the same day. The Australian applicant is required to sign a declaration in front of a Consular Official and produce their original passport as proof of identity, along with original proof of dissolution of marriage if applicable (ie, a decree absolute if divorced, or death certificate if widowed).
Part VA of the Act contains the rules for recognition of marriages entered into outside Australia under foreign laws. The basic rule adopted is that, if the marriage was recognised as valid under the law of the country in which it was entered into, at the time when it was entered into, the marriage will be recognised in Australia as a valid marriage, unless one of the exceptions mentioned below is applicable.
I think future generations will skip marriages as a Primary Source and use Births and Deaths. Statutory requirements will always be required for those 2. I don't place much importance on marriages apart from the obvious ability to link 2 people . Many customs arose from ''stepping over the broomstick'' to '' Common Law'' - it is the notating by Church/State officials which we place emphasis on.
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On a similar note, a uni friend of mine shortened her surname while at university removing the "bottom" off the surname. Her shorter surname is less unusual than her birth surname. Some poor researcher in the future has little chance of probably tracking her forward or her children backwards on their mother's line because of the change unless they were aware of it. :-\ Even if change of name by deed poll records become publically available in the future, she married in a different part of the country so it's less likely a researcher would make the connection anyway.
Oh I think our descendants will be clued into this. With the rise in immigration and the lack of English by those who sail in and the lack of Patience shown by officials ;we have already had an indication that a persons name may not be what it was
I think the vast number of names in America are corrupted through this process.
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I think what Pinefamily meant is that Births, Marriages and Deaths aren't announced in newspapers as much as they used to be. In future years people will be able to find them on Facebook! ;D
Thanks Groom. Yes, that's exactly what I meant. Sorry, KGarrad, for not being clearer. Sometimes I know what I'm thinking but don't always translate it well into the written word.
David, the same thing happens here in Australia. Over the years, immigrants from different cultures have had their names altered by English speaking officials. Maybe not so much these days when forms are required to be filled out by the person.
The best example I can think of are the two football players, Paul Porplicia and Jason Porplizia. Apparently their grandfathers were brothers, and when they came out to Australia, that was how their names were spelt on official forms, and that was how they stayed.
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On a similar note, a uni friend of mine shortened her surname while at university removing the "bottom" off the surname. Her shorter surname is less unusual than her birth surname. Some poor researcher in the future has little chance of probably tracking her forward or her children backwards on their mother's line because of the change unless they were aware of it. :-\ Even if change of name by deed poll records become publically available in the future, she married in a different part of the country so it's less likely a researcher would make the connection anyway.
Oh I think our descendants will be clued into this. With the rise in immigration and the lack of English by those who sail in and the lack of Patience shown by officials ;we have already had an indication that a persons name may not be what it was
I think the vast number of names in America are corrupted through this process.
Possibly but that doesn't mean they may have much success trying to find the original name. Really depends I suspect on how much its been changed and how publically available the records are. ;D
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one barrier to future researchers will be when couples choose to have their marriage ceremony overseas. As far as I'm aware there is no requirement for the marriage to be registered with the home authorities, so it obviously won't be so easy for future researchers to track down.
I was married overseas but still had to post Banns with local Registry Office. Not sure if something will be recorded but I shall give them a call next week to find out. I am Scottish which may be different from England/Wales/N Ireland?
Annie
Gov.uk website says as long as you follow local rules, it doesn't generally have to be registered in the UK, although I think their are different rules for some countries.
https://www.gov.uk/marriage-abroad
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Countries like Australia are so paranoid about their ex-convict population that they destroy all information gathered as soon as they have gleaned numerical statistics from the information. The irony is their indigenous population have an oral heritage that goes back centuries and even that is being destroyed by the immigrants’ privacy ideals.
Cheers
Guy
With respect, one does wonder where some people get their information
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I think a lot of immigrants names were phoenetically written because it was probably not possible to write down the original name either due to pressure on officials to process the sheer numbers arriving at times or illiteracy amongst the immigrants and the officials just writing on the forms what they heard, especially with regard to Eastern European names, many of which were anglicized at ports of entry.
I know with one branch of my lot I have them suddenly appearing on the 1891 census with one spelling of the name only to have them appear on the next one and other certificates with another spelling. I only found them there because I managed to back track with information that I knew was correct. When they arrived in the UK and exactly from where I have no idea only that they were born in Russia.............. ::)
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Spoke to my nephew who was married in Bali Indonesia
He said he had to register in both places SA and Indo. 2 ceremonies - 1 traditional Balinese and 1 here in Oz to make it legal. He has 2 certificates as well.
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Not sure we can be confident or comfortable that the internet will keep all of our records safe. From server issues to space and corruption of our own laptops/PCs there are many ways we can lose information.
Can we be confident resources will be available? If places like FindMyPast and Ancestry go bust will someone else step in? Highly likely but at what cost or how much damage to personal records etc
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Never mind - our descendants won't be done out of a lot of fun if all our lookings are lost! ;D ;D They can have the enjoyment of doing it all again! - as I have for my family - finding out mistakes others have made along the way and probably making some of my own as well.
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Very good Wiggy! How could we possibly take all that ;D ;D ;D pleasure and fun away from our descendants!
That just wouldn't be fair now, would it!
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Pleasure?????
Where's my still looking for list...... ::)
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Can we be confident resources will be available? If places like FindMyPast and Ancestry go bust will someone else step in? Highly likely but at what cost or how much damage to personal records etc
I have a feeling that the current genealogy thing may turn out to be a generational fad. It's popular now because of the steady growth of new info on the relatively new internet. Twenty years on that will all have changed, with ever more ridiculous electronic gizmos becoming trendy. Perhaps we can click an icon and the 'net will do a two-minute search going back 6 generations. :D Will there be any hard copy? :(
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Illegitimacy was never a problem before the Victorian hypocrisy made it so, the problem before was not children being illegitimate but the parents or rather the father not providing for his children.
Countries like Australia are so paranoid about their ex-convict population that they destroy all information gathered as soon as they have gleaned numerical statistics from the information. The irony is their indigenous population have an oral heritage that goes back centuries and even that is being destroyed by the immigrants’ privacy ideals.
Many countries claim to be free but in reality they can never be free until people see the futility in privacy, secrecy destroys life and destroys history, whether that is the history of the country, the family or the individual.
Cheers
Guy
Is there any evidence to support your theory about Australia? I doubt it.
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That's right Andrew! A "Have you ever thought of tracking your family tree" pop up, which is followed by a "sign up here and subscribe to wherever", will change to a pop up that simply says "Your Family - Free - click here" - and Presto!
On the other hand, the technology may be such by then, that our descendants will have had a microchip installed in their brain, at birth, and have all that information available to them simply by thinking about it!
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Can we be confident resources will be available? If places like FindMyPast and Ancestry go bust will someone else step in? Highly likely but at what cost or how much damage to personal records etc
I have a feeling that the current genealogy thing may turn out to be a generational fad. It's popular now because of the steady growth of new info on the relatively new internet. Twenty years on that will all have changed, with ever more ridiculous electronic gizmos becoming trendy. Perhaps we can click an icon and the 'net will do a two-minute search going back 6 generations. :D Will there be any hard copy? :(
Hard copy?! What a quaint old-fashioned idea! ;D
In 100 years nobody will be doing hard copy of anything! :D
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Perhaps we can click an icon and the 'net will do a two-minute search going back 6 generations. :D
You mean something like a Leaf ??? ::) :D
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;D ;D ;D ;D "something like a leaf" David! Luv It..
(I see you have the surname of Jacka in your list! Pretty unusual - one of our Prime Ministers was Sir Keith JACKA Holyoake).
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Is there any evidence to support your theory about Australia? I doubt it.
Yes there is plenty of evidence to support my views.
Any one who knows me knows I do not make statements unless I am sure of my facts.
I could easily give you references but in this case due to certain reactions with regards to some of my postings I will let you do your own research into the history of Australian repression of convict ancestors.
There might even be a clue to find some thoughts on the subject in this posting.
Cheers
Guy
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Not sure we can be confident or comfortable that the internet will keep all of our records safe. From server issues to space and corruption of our own laptops/PCs there are many ways we can lose information.
Can we be confident resources will be available? If places like FindMyPast and Ancestry go bust will someone else step in? Highly likely but at what cost or how much damage to personal records etc
Ancestry is already up for sale.
Cheers
Guy
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Is there any evidence to support your theory about Australia? I doubt it.
Yes there is plenty of evidence to support my views.
Any one who knows me knows I do not make statements unless I am sure of my facts.
I could easily give you references but in this case due to certain reactions with regards to some of my postings I will let you do your own research into the history of Australian repression of convict ancestors.
There might even be a clue to find some thoughts on the subject in this posting.
Cheers
Guy
It is true that some time ago Aussies were very ready to supress their convict ancestry (I doubt if my grandmother was aware that her great grandfather and was a convict - and some other members of her family as well)
- however that has long gone out the window and now we are very ready to find convicts in our families, and in fact almost rejoice to do so - it means we've been here a long time!! ;)
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I suggest the biggest obstacle people will face is the "we don't mention that" culture. I speak from experience.
My maternal family tree is very traditional, people were/are married and they have children. Birth certificates are right and proper. Most take an interest. My paternal line is very, very different. Single mothers who won't tell, don't know the 5 fathers of 5 children. Not many marriages. Step children whose surnames change with the wind.
I quickly go from the family genealogist with interesting things to speak about on my mothers side... to the nosey b****** cousin who is 'up to something' on my fathers. For many it will be a much easier option now and in the future to just not ask.
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In 100 years nobody will be doing hard copy of anything! :D
Hmmm, not so sure. Remember all that talk about the Paperless Office? yeah ...
But I was wondering where our beloved Ancestry and FindMyPast will be when the flow of new records has died down, and with it the prospect of staying solvent. We'll have to depend on the volunteer websites - which are pretty reliable as a rule, of course.
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I suggest the biggest obstacle people will face is the "we don't mention that" culture. I speak from experience.
My maternal family tree is very traditional, people were/are married and they have children. Birth certificates are right and proper. Most take an interest.
That resonates strongly. My mother's mother came from a family of five girls and four boys. Only two girls married and had one child each; the other three were respectable spinster schoolmarms in Liverpool. Questions about the four boys were quietly sidestepped. My partially successful researches have shown that one died very young; one emigrated to Canada; one remained single with a respectable insurance job before vanishing in his thirties (allegedly having committed suicide); and the fourth can be found in a succession of ordinary jobs (never the same) including twice signing up for the army and twice being rejected as 'inefficient'. I suspect he may have been a feckless practical joker: one of his census records said he was born in Jamaica - certainly untrue.
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In 100 years nobody will be doing hard copy of anything! :D
Hmmm, not so sure. Remember all that talk about the Paperless Office? yeah ...
But I was wondering where our beloved Ancestry and FindMyPast will be when the flow of new records has died down, and with it the prospect of staying solvent. We'll have to depend on the volunteer websites - which are pretty reliable as a rule, of course.
Do you know many youngsters who even read a book?
Everything has to be an "app", capable of being run on smartphones, tablets, and the like.
The changes I have seen in my 60+ years will pale into insignificance compared to what will/might happen in the next 100 years! ;D
P.S. I have worked in IT since I left school, so I am tech-savvy! ;)
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P.S. I have worked in IT since I left school, so I am tech-savvy! ;)
What do you think of archiving old sites , or even a site like Rootschat? Will server space allow this?
Old = a site today in 5 years time etc
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When I started in IT, mainframe disc storage was very expensive, and not very big!
I remember moving to Imperial Group, where they updated 8k disc packs to 100k, and said "We'll never fill one of those"!!.
Suffice to say that my phone has more storage than the first mainframe site I worked on ;D
I still have some 4k USB sticks somewhere!
A 32Gb USB stick costs just £3 these days
And PC World currently sells 8 TB storage for only £210.
Memory & storage sizes are growing exponentially, and the cost is reducing at an alarming rate!
You will probably be able to hold a complete library on a USB stick! ;D
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I suggest the biggest obstacle people will face is the "we don't mention that" culture. I speak from experience.
Two of my brickwalls are as a result of "we don't mention that". My dear old granny could have solved them if she hadn't seen fit to take the secrets to her grave with her.....
Who is the father of the child given up for adoption???
And
Were you the mother not the sister of the other one????
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On the subject of storage devices etc, while I am not tech savvie I am not completely neanderthal and the rate at which storage devices shrink never ceases to amaze me.
My 1gigs external hard drive that I have used for the past 5 years to store files and downloaded docs was the be all and end all for me, but it was pushed into dinosaurship when techie son came home from one of those Microsoft seminar type things with a flash drive smaller than my thumbnail with a storage capacity of 16gigs!!!
And now on top of that I have learned how to use the "cloud" so chuffed with myself, will be starting to retire the external slowly..... ;D
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P.S. I have worked in IT since I left school, so I am tech-savvy! ;)
What do you think of archiving old sites , or even a site like Rootschat? Will server space allow this?
Old = a site today in 5 years time etc
Having worked in IT since leaving school, you will recall the millennium project (I forget who did it) which was carefully turned into an electronic time-capsule; only the technology needed to read it is now obsolete. So we need to be careful how we 'archive' stuff for the long (or even medium) term. There is still something to be said for hard copy ....
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P.S. I have worked in IT since I left school, so I am tech-savvy! ;)
What do you think of archiving old sites , or even a site like Rootschat? Will server space allow this?
Old = a site today in 5 years time etc
What you mean like the Internet Archive (Wayback machine) no it will never happen ;)
http://web.archive.org/web/20050328015619/http://www.rootschat.com/
Cheers
Guy
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P.S. I have worked in IT since I left school, so I am tech-savvy! ;)
What do you think of archiving old sites , or even a site like Rootschat? Will server space allow this?
Old = a site today in 5 years time etc
Having worked in IT since leaving school, you will recall the millennium project (I forget who did it) which was carefully turned into an electronic time-capsule; only the technology needed to read it is now obsolete. So we need to be careful how we 'archive' stuff for the long (or even medium) term. There is still something to be said for hard copy ....
Sorry, never heard of it! ;D
But then, I've been working since 1971, and in 1999 I was too busy fixing commercial systems!!
(I assume that by "Millennium" you were referring to 1999/2000? Rather than the true Millennium in 2000/2001? ;D)
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Sorry, never heard of it! ;D
But then, I've been working since 1971, and in 1999 I was too busy fixing commercial systems!!
(I assume that by "Millennium" you were referring to 1999/2000? Rather than the true Millennium in 2000/2001? ;D)
I think it was a biggish school somewhere in UK, and IIRC they stashed everything on some kind of big disk drive. That's what became obsolete.
My little systems weren't troubled by the infamous 'bug'. Were yours? ;D
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I'm hearing you, KGarrad! We refused to acknowledge any so-called millenium celebrations 1999/2000. The folly of it was even more obvious when our local newspaper, as part of their "millenium" celebration, published the front page from their 1900 edition. On it was an editorial talking about the change of century in 1901!
Regarding the change of technology, perhaps we may continue to have hard copy storage, but we will end up a digital society. In our lifetime, I expect we will see the demise of newspapers, magazines, CD's, and DVD's/Blu-Rays. All of these will become totally digital.
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.... I expect we will see the demise of newspapers, magazines, CD's, and DVD's/Blu-Rays. All of these will become totally digital.
CDs and DVDs have always been totally digital .. ;D
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P.S. I have worked in IT since I left school, so I am tech-savvy! ;)
What do you think of archiving old sites , or even a site like Rootschat? Will server space allow this?
Old = a site today in 5 years time etc
What you mean like the Internet Archive (Wayback machine) no it will never happen ;)
http://web.archive.org/web/20050328015619/http://www.rootschat.com/
Cheers
Guy
I do know of the Wayback Machine :)
And that goes to my point. A dedicated website set up to store information BECAUSE of the lack of storage , dead links and other reasons why search sites hate going back more than 5 years.
I also recognize Andrews point about obsoletion. Guy , you yourself have talked of destruction of paper records and what it could mean for future genealogists/historians. I did agree with your point on that thread and I understand the concerns about readable storage.
3SD - for some reason I am not a fan of cloud storage. I must be a Neanderthal :P
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Can we be confident resources will be available? If places like FindMyPast and Ancestry go bust will someone else step in? Highly likely but at what cost or how much damage to personal records etc
I have a feeling that the current genealogy thing may turn out to be a generational fad. It's popular now because of the steady growth of new info on the relatively new internet. Twenty years on that will all have changed, with ever more ridiculous electronic gizmos becoming trendy. Perhaps we can click an icon and the 'net will do a two-minute search going back 6 generations. :D Will there be any hard copy? :(
Hard copy?! What a quaint old-fashioned idea! ;D
In 100 years nobody will be doing hard copy of anything! :D
How do you arrive at that prediction, I wonder?
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I'm hearing you, KGarrad! We refused to acknowledge any so-called millenium celebrations 1999/2000.
We arrived in Perth on Dec 31 1999 - so we had an extra 2 1/2 hrs to live if anything went wrong :D
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Hard copy?! What a quaint old-fashioned idea! ;D
In 100 years nobody will be doing hard copy of anything! :D
How do you arrive at that prediction, I wonder?
Simply extrapolating from observations of the youth of today! ;D
They don't read books or newspapers.
They do everything online.
Do you not see them walking down the street glued to their smartphones?! ::)
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Simply extrapolating from observations of the youth of today! ;D
They don't read books or newspapers.
They do everything online.
Yes, they do. But as a rule those aren't the ones doing genealogy. Maybe when they develop an interest their habits may have evolved a bit.
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Yes DVDs/CDs/Blu-rays/etc are digital, but they are still a hard copy version. I was referring to digital downloads.
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Hard copy?! What a quaint old-fashioned idea! ;D
In 100 years nobody will be doing hard copy of anything! :D
How do you arrive at that prediction, I wonder?
Simply extrapolating from observations of the youth of today! ;D
They don't read books or newspapers.
They do everything online.
Do you not see them walking down the street glued to their smartphones?! ::)
The Government and the Legal System and HMRC and TNA would surely need Hard Copy documents and files, I imagine.
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I do know of the Wayback Machine :)
And that goes to my point. A dedicated website set up to store information BECAUSE of the lack of storage , dead links and other reasons why search sites hate going back more than 5 years.
I also recognize Andrews point about obsoletion. Guy , you yourself have talked of destruction of paper records and what it could mean for future genealogists/historians. I did agree with your point on that thread and I understand the concerns about readable storage.
3SD - for some reason I am not a fan of cloud storage. I must be a Neanderthal :P
The main problem with archiving websites is many webmasters make use of the no robots tag to prevent spiders and robots accessing their websites.
The use of such tags prevents sites like the Internet Archive archiving their site which means when the webmaster loses interest, stops paying their subscription or dies, etc. his/her site is removed from the server and lost forever.
If the robots and spiders are allowed access the site is recorded on archive sites and saved for posterity.
Cheers
Guy
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DavidG02 the only reason I use the "cloud" is because I don't always use the same pc I switch between the desktop and the laptop and that way I can access my docs from whichever one I am using at the time.................
I still print out all my genealogy documents and they are in a pair of very large box files. ;D ;D
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I'm not sure if it has come up on this thread or another one, but I am wary of "cloud" type virtual backups. Too much like Big Brother for my liking.
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The Government and the Legal System and HMRC and TNA would surely need Hard Copy documents and files, I imagine.
So what about online Tax Returns?
TNA is putting more and more of their holdings online.
Just think of the "progress" made in putting all sorts of things online in the last 10 years.
Then multiply that by 10 to get a picture of 100 years time! ;D
The rise of ebooks vis-a-vis paper books is a classic example of what I mean.
As for genealogy - those new to FH appear to only want to view things online, and rarely visit an archive, library or Records Office ::)
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I have to do most of my research online, as my research is mainly in the UK, I'd be lost without that facility, as would so many others, not just FH history researchers!
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Don't forget the LDS microfilm system, Jeanne. A great way for us on the other side of the world to look at records.
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As for genealogy - those new to FH appear to only want to view things online, and rarely visit an archive, library or Records Office ::) **
I will echo jaybelnz comments. Most Southern Hemisphere SOBEs (sons of British Emigrants) and ADOBEs ( Also Daughters of British Emigrants ) :D would LOVE to visit archive offices in the UK. Its why I argue for online records. ( I note and congratulate the work done by Guy and others in moving this forward)
Its why after much huffing and puffing I subscribe to Scotlands People. Scanned Originals delivered to my desktop. I did a lot of Library searching and found it gave me a sense of what I needed to do to get it right.
I was initially sucked in by the web and family trees ( not Leaf City) I found on the web. Now I use them as guides until proven. Catch 22 is to prove or disprove them will take a visit to a Parish Office or Local Authority in the UK.
** I appreciate you don't mean most of us - I hope you don't anyway ;)
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Don't forget the LDS microfilm system, Jeanne. A great way for us on the other side of the world to look at records.
Thanks Pinefamily, I have in the past used our local FHS, actually found my first two marriages there when I first started, I'd picked them up online from the old IGI. They were a great help too. Actually I am going again shortly to find some more Irish References I found on Family Search!
Unfortunately, they are now only open on a Saturday Morning, and I've been down 3 times so far and the place has been chokka! During the week was much better, there were not so many people there. Maybe that's why it changed to one morning only, and but can't make appointments! Might try going really early, and be there when they open up, get a close park - might get in that way! I'm not sure how many readers they have, last time I was there, there were only 4.
I've never been called an ADOBE before David.😄😄
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My point was that as more and more information gets put online, we become less and less reliant on paper documents.
Ergo: paper is on the way out, and may become obsolete in a 100 years or so?!
Online research applies to me, too!
Living on the Isle of Man requires some expense, and time, and usually an overnight stay, just to visit an archive/RO and the like!
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I long for the day that an Orac type computer (a supercomputer from the TV series Blake's 7) which has access to the sum total of all knowledge is available to replace physical libraries as access points to knowledge.
But even if that point is ever reached there would still be a need for archives that hold the original artefact whether it is paper, stone or other medium in a stable form where any change would be noticeable.
Without the safety net of the original any digital record could be amended without such amendments being discovered and history could be changed irrevocably.
The more recent improvements in online family history include the addition of digital copies of original records being made available in addition to the transcripts.
The 1911 census and the 1939 Register are good examples of this where the researcher can look at the original document a make decisions about the value of later additions.
I do think however that such a situation is far off and, before this is standard policy, there will need to be new forms of memory and storage to enable it to become a reality.
Cheers
Guy
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I have family from the Isle of Man KG - family Kneen!
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I think another barrier will be the decline in the use of family naming patterns which have been clues in finding people in my tree.
As well as people marrying abroad, just marrying miles from where they live and where the children were born. For example I was married 300 miles from where we live, work and where my daughter was born. Only the fact that my marriage details are on my daughter's birth cert would be a clue. Any descendant of my siblings in law however may find our marriage but could easily conclude we had no children because of the children being born in a different part of the UK.
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Sorry Rosinsh, meant to ask about your Campbells. I have Campbells in Invernesshire. Well not exactly my direct line because mt 3x Grt Gran had children to 2 fathers ;).
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Is there any evidence to support your theory about Australia? I doubt it.
Yes there is plenty of evidence to support my views.
Any one who knows me knows I do not make statements unless I am sure of my facts.
I could easily give you references but in this case due to certain reactions with regards to some of my postings I will let you do your own research into the history of Australian repression of convict ancestors.
There might even be a clue to find some thoughts on the subject in this posting.
Cheers
Guy
May I mention that the locations of great deal of the official records for New South Wales from the Penal era are caught up in factoids. "Australia" commences with the federation of the six British colonies (New South Wales, Tasmania, Western Australia, South Australia, Victoria and Queensland) into one British Colony effective 1 January 1901. The Convict era effectively ended in NSW in 1840. At that time NSW included a fairly large geographical realm, and from the English perspective, this included NSW as the governing administrative body for New Zealand, all of what is now Queensland, Victoria, Tasmania, and much of what is now the Northern Territory and parts of what is now South Australia. The official records for much of that administration was of course sent to England on a regular basis, and copies held by the Public service in Sydney, NSW. There was therefore, over time, an increasingly pressing issue regarding the storing of those records, and much letter writing between the Admin in Sydney and the Admin at White Hall etc... Some of the Sydney records were lost in a fire. Some were pulped. But much of the records from the convict era are still available TODAY.
https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/research-topics/convicts/convicts
I am happy to type up information from the hardcopy of Guide No. 4 The Guide to NSW State Archives relating to Convicts and Convict Administration (the Convict Guide) provides an entry into an unique collection of records, created by both the British Government and the Colonial administration, covering the period 1788-1842, including the 'convict exiles' of the 1840s and 1850s.
I have access to private family papers for family members from as early as the late 1790s in NSW right through to current times. Many of these papers are already with the Mitchell library, Sydney NSW. They have been used as resources by many PhD students, for many years. I recall being taken to the Mitchell Library as a child back in the 1950s, when some of these papers were being lodged at that time, and were being added to previously lodged papers. I am sure many other families have continued to support The Mitchell Library, Sydney NSW. I am currently cataloguing more papers from family members for lodging at The Mitchell Library.
Add
link re Australian Joint Copy Project and some of the State Library holdings
http://www.sl.nsw.gov.au/about/collections/microform.html
Add
https://www.nla.gov.au/microform-australian-joint-copying-project commenced 1945 :)
Cheers, JM
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One of the main reasons for Australia having concerns about privacy can be seen in the tragedy that befell an ordinary family in Sydney when they won the Lottery. The tragedy occurred when I was still a school girl, living hundreds and hundreds of miles from Sydney. I am aware that families across the nation basically went from allowing their children to play and roam freely, unsupervised for hours and hours on weekends, school holidays to putting us all behind closed doors, inside, in front of the television, where we could be in eyesight of a responsible adult :-X :-X :-X or at least 'Big Brother' ....
All my cousins (many living thousands of kilometres away in rural Qld, and the NT), my siblings, our school friends, and over the years since, in conversations with people my husband and I have met, .... if they are our age, or older, they remember "Graeme Thorne". He was eight years old. He was kidnapped on his way to school, and a ransom demand was made, but he was killed before anyone could save him. The kidnapper had found the details of his parents lottery win. School children across the nation learnt not to give out names, addresses.... these became private information.
My parents and their siblings included many senior NSW public servants , and several clergy. May I assure you that they all date the privacy concerns that continue to exist throughout Australian states and territories to that one incident, in the 1960s. Until that time, very little concern for what we could now call privacy or private, or sensitive information about the person.
The massive explosion in population numbers in the 1850s and 1860s far outweighed the numbers of persons transported under sentence of a court of law. The population of the 1850s and 1860s was suffering 'gold fever'.... :)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper?q=
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/137118246
Canberra Times 12 July 1960
and
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=lL5f5cZgq8MC&dat=19600602&printsec=frontpage&hl=en (Page 5, of the Sydney Morning Herald, 2 June 1960)
Cheers, JM
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Sorry Rosinsh, meant to ask about your Campbells. I have Campbells in Invernesshire. Well not exactly my direct line because mt 3x Grt Gran had children to 2 fathers ;).
Pharma,
My Campbells are South Uist.........any help?
Annie
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Majm,
There were two similar incidents here in South Australia in the 1960's; the disappearance of the Beaumont children in 1966, and the disappearance of two girls from the Adelaide Oval in 1973.
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Yes Pinefamily, I remember the newscoverage in NSW for those too. But the Thorne case involved the Army out searching, searching, searching, and probably because our family had recently got an HMV TV and it was daily on the news, it was drummed into us kids "do not talk to strangers" .... We even learnt which adults in our parents' lives were not as reliable as perhaps we thought they were "Don't talk to Mr ...... " "Don't go to Mr ...... shop without ME" "Don't take the washing off the line at Mrs .............." (on way home from school if it starts to rain) etc etc.... and then even after the discovery of the lad's body ...."Don't accept any lifts" "Don't talk to the milkman" etc etc "DONT" was the operative word.
Cheers, JM
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Yes, I had it drummed into me as a young boy to not talk to strangers, not accept lifts from strangers, not talk to men in public toilets, the list goes on. I don't recall the Beaumonts, but I can recall the outcry in 1973 when Joanne Radcliffe and Kirsty Gordon disappeared from Adelaide Oval.
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The sad part now about teaching our children about stranger danger is the abuse that happens frequently from within the child's own family and friends! Very sad, and the rate of child abuse from within the wider family, and frequently child death as a result, has escalated here in recent years!
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I have often wondered if the seemingly horrible upswing in cases of child and spousal abuse is merely because folk are not remaining silent and are speaking out instead of "keeping it behind closed doors"
I think we all had it drummed into us as kids, we also had a spate of highly publicized disappearances of young girls here in the 80's, they were never found and the suspects committed suicide when the police closed in on them after one of their victims managed to escape and alert them.
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I think you're right about people not speaking out and keeping things behind closed doors 3SG! But having had to refer some of my students, reading court proceedings and watching the trial details etc on the news, it's becoming obvious from the evidence in a lot of cases that sadly, a good number of families are still covering thing up!
A lot of cases that should have been reported are not referred to the appropriate agencies while the abuse is happening, it is only usually when the child( sadly usually a baby) is taken to hospital because it's unconscious or for another serious injury, that the previous abuse comes to light!
Nowadays, day care centres and schools have suspected child abuse policies, and are picking up a lot that way, and referrals are mandatory. But very sad to say in some cases, the abuse has actually happened at Day Care and School, and by the very people that are supposed to be protecting the children from this sort of thing. It's becoming a sad world when you don't know who to trust with your children!
When I was teaching, I had to make a number of referrals to my Principal, who would check it out and pass it on to the authorities - it's an awful thing to have to do - giving evidence etc., but even worse to later know that others in the family, and friends-were aware of it!
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Which all runs back to openess.
Secrets harm.
We cannot protect our children by keeping them within sight and under our control children have to be allowed the freedom to understand danger.
By shutting them away we simply transfer the time they face the dangers we do not remove the danger.
Children learn by experience a fall from a swing teaches them if they climb high and fall it will hurt even more than falling from the swing so they take precautions.
In a similar manner children learn from their interaction with other children that people may appear to be friendly but in reality are out to hurt them.
Teach your children to be open and speak about things the more confidence they have to speak about anyhting good or bad the less chance of problems for them in the future.
Children like all young animals learn by example, if the parents are secretive the children become secretive as a result they will get hurt in the long run.
Cheers
Guy
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Very good points Guy!
Another thing that also comes up frequently is the the impression that all children who are abused and neglected are from families in distress or suffering poverty! That word poverty is used an awful lot in an attempt to justify bad habits and bad behavioural morals!
That's just nonsense! Abuse is abuse and neglect is abuse. No matter if it's a white collar, blue collar, or a diamond collar, the fact remains - any form of abuse towards a child, or an adult, is just plain wrong!
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I agree Guy and JB, we can only do our best to protect our children but have to learn from interaction with others.
Is it not abuse because the family is well off and the parents drop the child/children off with money/credit card so that they can follow their own interests at the nearest mall and come back many hours later??? They have no idea what the kids have been up to in the hours they have been on their own, all they know is they have had a good time...............
It is also now mandatory here to report suspected child abuse, but sadly it also too often goes unnoticed/unreported until it is too late to save the child
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That's a very good point too 3SD!
But now with a lot of younger kids, adolescents, teenagers etc., computer savvy, getting themselves onto Facebook and Instagram, they are subject to a lot of quite personal influences, and trying to "keep up with the play", are making themselves very vulnerable to possible predator grooming!
Without some sort of parental monitoring and control over the Internet sites they visit and participate in, chances are they may travel the wrong road when making new virtual "friends".
I guess it's even harder now that children in schools having to have their own "tablets" for school makes it even harder to monitor! Even if a parent manages to block some inappropriate sites, some kids are so computer savvy, they'll just find a way to get around it, or find a new avenue to be "included" with their current online peers!
I didn't have a clue why my parents didn't really approve of a couple of my primary school friends (they were twin sisters) when I was a child! I was allowed to invite them to our place to play, but I wasn't allowed to go to their house. I wasn't given an explanation why at the time, but accepted it, but I did notice later, in the summer, when swimming, that these two girls had bruises and welts on their arms and legs and some other marks which I now realise must have been cigarette burns!
I told my Mum, and then she told me that their Dad was not a nice kind man like my Dad, and that he would drink too much beer all day, didn't go to work, and then he would get very angry and hurt his children and their mother, and that was why I wasn't allowed to go to their house, because he might be there and may hurt me too, and it was safer if I didn't go there. (Apparently their mum would get on the turps as well). Poor kids!
Pleased I'm not bringing up children anymore. LOL!!
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Pleased I'm not bringing up children anymore. LOL!!
Me too, it's a minefield for parents today. ::) ;D
While each of my kids had a cell phone while still at school they were a far cry from the Smart Phones that the kids have today................Thank goodness ;D ;D
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That's a very good point too 3SD!
But now with a lot of younger kids, adolescents, teenagers etc., computer savvy, getting themselves onto Facebook and Instagram, they are subject to a lot of quite personal influences, and trying to "keep up with the play", are making themselves very vulnerable to possible predator grooming!
Without some sort of parental monitoring and control over the Internet sites they visit and participate in, chances are they may travel the wrong road when making new virtual "friends".
I guess it's even harder now that children in schools having to have their own "tablets" for school makes it even harder to monitor! Even if a parent manages to block some inappropriate sites, some kids are so computer savvy, they'll just find a way to get around it, or find a new avenue to be "included" with their current online peers!
Yes good parents monitor lazy parents block.
As you say many children will be able to by pass blocking with little difficulty. Many will resent the block and look at it as a challenge to be overcome.
It is better and relatively easy to monitor what sites your child has been using and incidentally whether they have deleted their “history”, if the history has been deleted that should ring alarm bells for parents and call for closer supervision of the children’s internet use.
Parents should never forget they are their children's parents not their children's friends.
Cheers
Guy
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Well said both of you, 3SD and Guy! I even delete my own history every night, in case I croak, and my kids discover what I've been up to!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well said both of you, 3SD and Guy! I even delete my own history every night, in case I croak, and my kids discover what I've been up to!! ;D ;D ;D ;D
;D ;D ;D ;D
visiting sites you shouldn't be JB ;) ;D
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Guy. JayBelnz, And 3SD,
I got up this morning (my time), and reading this last part of the thread, I couldn't agree more. Our three grew up just at the start of boom in computers, and online issues for teenagers, and we experienced a lot of what you have touched on, especially with our daughter.
And Guy, reading your posts, it was almost as if I'd written them myself. :)
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Children like all young animals learn by example, if the parents are secretive the children become secretive as a result they will get hurt in the long run.
Up to a point everyone, not just children, learns by example, but many don't accept everything they are 'told', and only learn by experience and making painful mistakes (as you pointed out Guy) and sometimes not even then ....
The obvious example in the context of Family History is the number of girls who get 'up the spout' despite being instructed how to avoid it ?
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Children like all young animals learn by example, if the parents are secretive the children become secretive as a result they will get hurt in the long run.
Up to a point everyone, not just children, learns by example, but many don't accept everything they are 'told', and only learn by experience and making painful mistakes (as you pointed out Guy) and sometimes not even then ....
The obvious example in the context of Family History is the number of girls who get 'up the spout' despite being instructed how to avoid it ?
I think that is a rather derogatory remark Andrew.
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... but many don't accept everything they are 'told', and only learn by experience and making painful mistakes (as you pointed out Guy) and sometimes not even then ....
I don't know what you mean Andrew I always "accept what I am told", it's just that things such as fruit pies straight out of the oven, roasted chestnuts, pans on the hob, are uncharacteristically hot when I pick them up.
They also seem to be hot the second & third time I attempt it as well, very strange.
Cheers
Guy
PS I still don't understand why the filling of an apple pie is hot when it comes out of the oven but when my mum made artic rolls the filling (ice cream) was cold when it came out of the oven, it must be magic
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The obvious example in the context of Family History is the number of girls who get 'up the spout' despite being instructed how to avoid it ?
I think that is a rather derogatory remark Andrew.
I agree with you majm - I find that rather offensive, not only the phrase used but also the idea. I was under the impression that it took two to make a baby, so why place the blame on the female? Surely the male could also have taken steps to avoid it!
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Yes, 3sd, it is offensive.
French letters have been around for centuries, both as a method of birth control for males, and as a barrier to sexually transmitted diseases.
Cheers, JM
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I agree. I find that remark very offensive as well Andrew, and not at all acceptable!
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Yes, 3sd, it is offensive.
French letters have been around for centuries, both as a method of birth control for males, and as a barrier to sexually transmitted diseases.
Cheers, JM
Sorry but one could claim that to use the slang term French letters could be construed as derogatory as it insults the publication company French Letters (Les Lettres Françaises) which was formed in 1941 or the song French Letters recorded in 1982 by the New Zealand band Herbs.
The term up the spout (and similar) has been used certainly since 1918 as slang for pregnant.
Perhaps we should not be too sensitive or judgemental when we read what others write.
Cheers
Guy
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The term up the spout (and similar) has been used certainly since 1918 as slang for pregnant.
Perhaps we should not be too sensitive or judgemental when we read what others write.
Cheers
As I said previously, although I don't like the phrase, it is also the idea that it is the woman's fault that I also object to. Did the man play no part in it?
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Why do us poor girls always get the blame, is it cos we can't hide the evidence if it all goes wrong, chap walks away and can even deny his responsibility if he so chooses, not really fair................. >:(
.........and pie fillings are hot when they come out of the oven Guy so that naughtly boys like you will hopefully learn not to pinch them until they're ready ::) ;D
.....but unfortunately I fear it is a lesson never learned, my son still pinches the hot biccies right off the tray...............and he's grown,............... :-\ ;D ;D
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I have the right to be offended and will always choose to be so if and when I read a misogynistic remark in a forum such as this, where I certainly would not expect to see such a thing!
Modified to add
"Perhaps we should not be too sensitive or judgemental when we read what others write."
Cheers
Guy
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I have the right to be offended and will always choose to be so if and when I read a misogynistic remark in a forum such as this, where I certainly would not expect to see such a thing!
How is it misogynistic?
There was no hatred or mistrust of women in the remark.
Misogynist - Greek from the prefix miso- "hatred" plus gynḗ "a woman."
The phrase was simply slang phrase used daily up and down the country with no ill intentions.
Cheers
Guy
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Laying the blame for pregnancy on either party, when you have no idea as to what really happened, is bad thinking!
I should explain that I got my first wife pregnant, before marriage, when she was just 17 years old!
I have never blamed anyone else but myself.
Well I was 24 at the time!! :o
On the plus side - we had 20 years of marriage, and 2 beautiful daughters! ;D
But please don't make comments about such things, unless you know the whole story!
The poor girl may have been raped, for all you know!
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Thank you KG - nice to hear that from a male.
We can't know the whole story about why our ancestors had children before marriage, so to state that, "The obvious example in the context of Family History is the number of girls who get 'up the spout' despite being instructed how to avoid it ?"
in my opionion is in very bad taste. We also need to remember that in those days sex education in schools, or even at home, wasn't the norm and probably wasn't even spoken about until just before marriage.
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Why do us poor girls always get the blame, is it cos we can't hide the evidence if it all goes wrong, chap walks away and can even deny his responsibility if he so chooses, not really fair................. >:(
A friend of mine's wife got the last life on the father of her son. When she found she was unmarried and pregnant, he claimed he wasn't the father and she had been sleeping around. When their son was born, it was so very obvious he was the father that he had a consideable amount of egg on his face so to speak.
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But please don't make comments about such things, unless you know the whole story!
The poor girl may have been raped, for all you know!
Or like someone I knew.........Incest :o
Annie
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Getting back to the original post...
In some ways research in the future is going to be easier, as more older paper records get digitised, and newly created records that are digital from the start. It will also probably a lot easier to build a picture of an our daily lives, as so much more of it is recorded in many different formats now.
And just think, a lot of it will be more legible and no need for somebody to take a crack at deciphering somebodies chronic bad handwriting!
But there will be other sources within families, stocks of pictures and video's that will depict daily lives, not just the odd snap shot that we often have now..
As to using your name in forums....
After experiencing cyber bullying, I used to be a moderator on a very large forum bigger than this one, which led to the need of police involvement, and I wasn't using my name either...
Just shows what can happen, when things go wrong... On this forum, yes I do use the name I'm known by but only my first name...
Guy, don't agree with what you say, is good manners, Yes face to face with somebody it's good manners go give your correct name, or in my case the name I'm normally known by.. But not on the internet, as you're not face to face with somebody, you can't see or hear the person you are interacting with, so have no clue what's so ever whether they are a possible friend or foul...
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People "opting out" of being on the electoral roll is going to be a handicap & choosing to be "ex - directory" on telephone listings.
ADDED.....Who can blame them with all the "cold" calls at all hours when your working shifts/new baby/caring for an elder/ill etc. which is such a nuisance.
Annie
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But there will be other sources within families, stocks of pictures and video's that will depict daily lives, not just the odd snap shot that we often have now..
I often worry about that. I have lots of video tapes, but no video player now to play them on. I need to get round to transfering them to DVD, but then who is to say how long they will be around? Same with photos, will the technology to show them still be available in 50 or so years time, or will things have moved on?
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Apologies to all those who felt offended by my earlier remark. It was not intended to offend - offence is a two-sided thing - and some take offence easily and perhaps assume that it was intended. I originally wrote 'pregnant' but thought that sounded a bit clinical.
However, like it or not, the biological fact remains that the girls get 'up the spout' and the boys responsible often get away scot-free. It's nothing to do with gender discrimination, and the boys should take the consequences. I was alluding to all the stories so many contributors here enjoy (?) digging up from their own family histories. No need for offence - it's a plain fact of life. Are we back to discussing 'openness' and not using the carpet as a cover?
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I have the right to be offended and will always choose to be so if and when I read a misogynistic remark in a forum such as this, where I certainly would not expect to see such a thing!
Everyone can claim that right if they so wish, and if they think it serves a purpose. But as I just said, offence is two-sided, and there is a big difference if the remark was intended to offend or not. Serious quarrels can develop from offence being taken when none was intended. Misogyny is a deliberate attitude, and one I can assure you I am not guilty of. You may call me politically incorrect if you like.
I am reminded of the ongoing dispute at Oriel College Oxford about the Rhodes statue. A big artificially stimulated argument because a small number of students found it offensive, and chose to make a big issue of it.
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I am reminded of the ongoing dispute at Oriel College Oxford about the Rhodes statue. A big artificially stimulated argument because a small number of students found it offensive, and chose to make a big issue of it.
That is a spin off from students here at Cape Town University about Rhodes' statue on the campus, the got it right to have it removed. The student behind the protest in Oxford is on a Rhodes Scholarship, doesn't seem to bother him that his studies are being funded by the very man that he is protesting against...................
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That is a spin off from students here at Cape Town University about Rhodes' statue on the campus, the got it right to have it removed. The student behind the protest in Oxford is on a Rhodes Scholarship, doesn't seem to bother him that his studies are being funded by the very man that he is protesting against...................
Yes. I suspect the student in question is mainly trying to make a name for himself. There have always been agitators, names like Tariq Ali and even Jack Straw come to mind .... Blatant contradictions like the one you mention don't seem to bother them, nor the well-known idiocy of the Bolsheviks trying to make history disappear with an airbrush.
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Getting back to the original post...
In some ways research in the future is going to be easier, as more older paper records get digitised, and newly created records that are digital from the start. It will also probably a lot easier to build a picture of an our daily lives, as so much more of it is recorded in many different formats now.
And just think, a lot of it will be more legible and no need for somebody to take a crack at deciphering somebodies chronic bad handwriting!
But there will be other sources within families, stocks of pictures and video's that will depict daily lives, not just the odd snap shot that we often have now..
Good to see a post that has a positive vibe about the future. I hope you are right. :)
On the pictures, todays youth are reliant on sites such as Facebook and whatever the *** they are staying around. Before people say '' Facebook is too big to disappear'' may I mention Myspace :D
My concern with sites like FB et al is that the server space is finite and 'cloud storage' you are dependent on
1. Remembering passwords
2. The cloud supplier staying viable
3. The issue of inheritance - ie passwords of people who pass on.
While not advocating a return to files and files of paper and names , I will caution that technology leaps ahead of where we are now and continuing to update , as groom pointed out, needs to be done and at times at expense.
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Before people say '' Facebook is too big to disappear'' may I mention Myspace :D
My concern with sites like FB et al is that the server space is finite and 'cloud storage' you are dependent on
1. Remembering passwords
2. The cloud supplier staying viable
3. The issue of inheritance - ie passwords of people who pass on.
While not advocating a return to files and files of paper and names , I will caution that technology leaps ahead of where we are now and continuing to update , as groom pointed out, needs to be done and at times at expense.
Some good points there for sure.
I have already had to move things from Floppy Disc, onto CD & USB Pen.
Not enough ports on laptops & have just put a new USB port into home comp as the previous ones were not enough.
Passwords for important things I've had to change so have different passwords for different sites, some secure & others just straight forward but I wouldn't use the same password for everything.
Everything eventually becomes obsolete.
Sites/Servers break down, info. is lost, nothing is 100% reliable in my view.
Genealogy is expensive enough without having to pay to store it elsewhere.
Annie
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On a similar note to what David has said above, not only can changing technologies have an effect on future family history, but I have concerns about records being kept, and being accessible. Even now, archives and records depositories periodically clean out, or downsize their collections. What will happen with digital records? Once they are deemed no longer required by the government/other authority, will they be continue to be stored on their systems? Or will they be transferred to an archival network for posterity? Or will they be deleted, destroyed at the touch of a button? If they continue to be held by whoever requires these records, how are they to be accessible for research?
As Spike Milligan said, "Questions, quistions, quostions."
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I have spoken with various family members, my age and older, and with my younger set. They agree that French Letters is the expression that was taught in secondary school classes in New South Wales, Australia when Sex Education classes commenced. It was not considered slang at that time. It was the expression that boys could use in open discussions with their Dad, Uncles, or male cousins who had served in the AIF and had therefore been issued with French Letters to avoid STDs. (I have various living family members who served in WWII, Korea, Malaya, Vietnam and more recently Timor,) I also asked when the word “Condom” became the usual word…. It seems to gain currency after the Grip Reaper advertisements of the 1990s focusing on AIDS and HIV.
I think it is important to remember that RootsChat is not publishing these threads just within Britain. RootsChat, as an internet based organisation is published to the world. The Common Room is not the exclusive domain of the English.
I am half a world away, in Australia, and while I read English as my first language, it is becoming obvious that my Australian dictionary has differences in meaning from the English used by English born posters. To me Andrews comment is suggestive of lack of morals by the female, but not the male yet both are actively involved in intercourse. That to me is derogatory, and offensive and sexist. Australian laws provide for redress. Whereas, to me, French Letters is standard language throughout my generation, it was (and in many instances still is) used by educators, the military , family members in front of young children, clergy, counsellors, medical practitioners, and even in newspapers as staid as the Canberra Times.
Cheers, JM.
Apologies to all those who felt offended by my earlier remark. It was not intended to offend - offence is a two-sided thing - and some take offence easily and perhaps assume that it was intended. I originally wrote 'pregnant' but thought that sounded a bit clinical.
However, like it or not, the biological fact remains that the girls get 'up the spout' and the boys responsible often get away scot-free. It's nothing to do with gender discrimination, and the boys should take the consequences. I was alluding to all the stories so many contributors here enjoy (?) digging up from their own family histories. No need for offence - it's a plain fact of life. Are we back to discussing 'openness' and not using the carpet as a cover?
Yes, 3sd, it is offensive.
French letters have been around for centuries, both as a method of birth control for males, and as a barrier to sexually transmitted diseases.
Cheers, JM
Sorry but one could claim that to use the slang term French letters could be construed as derogatory as it insults the publication company French Letters (Les Lettres Françaises) which was formed in 1941 or the song French Letters recorded in 1982 by the New Zealand band Herbs.
The term up the spout (and similar) has been used certainly since 1918 as slang for pregnant.
Perhaps we should not be too sensitive or judgemental when we read what others write.
Cheers
Guy
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There are many slang terms for being pregnant, just as there are many slang terms for condoms!
They are not all offensive! IMO the term "up the spout" is right up there with the worst!
The word condom was used in his Sex Education Classes when my son started at Secondary School in the early 1980's.
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Going back to the original question.......
Never mind destroying censuses, how about not taking any more!
Unless the govt has had a change of heart 2011 will be the last UK census. They said that all the information will be held by credit agencies, tax offices etc. How will genealogists be able to access that?
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On a similar note to what David has said above, not only can changing technologies have an effect on future family history, but I have concerns about records being kept, and being accessible. Even now, archives and records depositories periodically clean out, or downsize their collections. What will happen with digital records? Once they are deemed no longer required by the government/other authority, will they be continue to be stored on their systems? Or will they be transferred to an archival network for posterity? Or will they be deleted, destroyed at the touch of a button? If they continue to be held by whoever requires these records, how are they to be accessible for research?
As Spike Milligan said, "Questions, quistions, quostions."
Nothing matters but the writing. There has been nothing else worthwhile... a stain upon the silence.
Beckett.
The Archives of NSW has rules for the public records ! There's Acts of Parliament :) :)
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/recordkeeping/recordkeeping
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/recordkeeping/advice/designing-implementing-and-managing-systems/managing-cad-files
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/recordkeeping/advice/designing-implementing-and-managing-systems/Using%20cloud%20computing%20services
http://futureproof.records.nsw.gov.au/decommissioning-and-digital-archives-different-models/ (as recent as January 2016. .... less than a month ago. :)
Cheers, JM
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Unless the govt has had a change of heart 2011 will be the last UK census. They said that all the information will be held by credit agencies, tax offices etc. How will genealogists be able to access that?
Playing Devil's Advocate, a census isn't taken for the benefit of future genealogists and I suppose the arguement would be that it costs too much to commission a census that is only producing statistics that can be found elsewhere.
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It costs too much these days for elections and by-elections, but that's another story. ;)
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:)
http://www.adri.gov.au/
The Australasian Digital Recordkeeping Initiative (ADRI) is a collaboration between all ten national, state and territory government record institutions in Australia and New Zealand. ADRI is a working group of CAARA.
and
http://www.caara.org.au/
Council of Australasian Archives and Records Authorities
and
https://www.archivists.org.au/
and conservators
http://www.slideshare.net/natlibraryofaustralia/protecting-and-preserving-collections-by-prue-mckay
https://aiccm.org.au/conservation-and-restoration-bowman-flag
Cheers, JM
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It costs too much these days for elections and by-elections, but that's another story. ;)
Another story here too, our 2 postal referendums re changing our flag - estimated cost to be just under 26 million dollars!
The first one, which has been held already, had a question "Do you wish to see our flag changed"
Also had a question to pick one of 4 suggested new flags if you were happy to change. (Loads of them had been submitted previously in a competition)
Very low number of responses to this first referendum!
Next one hasn't come out yet, but 26 million dollars, when we have so many other things that money could be used for!
If the end vote comes out for non change, even more of a waste!
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Playing Devil's Advocate, a census isn't taken for the benefit of future genealogists and I suppose the arguement would be that it costs too much to commission a census that is only producing statistics that can be found elsewhere.
But where?
Telephone books are thinner than Kate Moss or Twiggy. Newspaper Births are slim pickings and the Deaths are heading that way as well. You don't get the social notes in the paper anymore and people are more transient than ever before.
''On the net'' doesn't cut it as we continually find dead links . My concern is this information about us will be spread around many sites and the cost to recover will be off-putting for some.
I agree the BDM system will still be in place and maybe the one place the records, genealogists want, will be.
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The census just collects population statistics - you don't find that type of information in phone books or newspaper births! ;D
And it's the Government Bureaucrats that want the information - which can be just as easily collated from other Government Departments computer databases.
As Groom said - censuses were never designed for the use of Family Historians.
Even the BMD records were never put in place for the use of Family Historians ???
We, as Family Historians, simply try to utilise any information we can. n the future (and we were originally talking of 100 years in the future) almost EVERYTHING will be available online!
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But will it become accessible, or stored away forever on some government/authority system?
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We don't have census info available here anyway, they're destroyed after the stats are done! Have to rely on Electoral Roll! That's not so bad, at least that's every 4 years!
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I feel quite sad at the thought of no 2021 census, that means we won't all be together on a census return. In 2001 my husband I hadn't met yet and in 2011 he was working away so appeared at another address and then my younger daughter wasn't born yet.
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I am half a world away, in Australia, and while I read English as my first language, it is becoming obvious that my Australian dictionary has differences in meaning from the English used by English born posters. To me Andrew's comment is suggestive of lack of morals by the female, but not the male yet both are actively involved in intercourse. That to me is derogatory, and offensive and sexist. Australian laws provide for redress.
I am reluctant to extend this topic in view of the offence it causes, but I must express dismay at a law which might encourage anyone to take (or even feign) offence, in order to exploit it to their possible advantage. Maybe the lawyers are the ones who get the main benefit, as usual ?
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The census just collects population statistics - you don't find that type of information in phone books or newspaper births! ;D
And that's the point I was making. The UK and US census are recognized as a Prime Source because it brings the phone book/bdm type of records in one place. It notates relationships between householders. It gives approximate ages and it gives residence. It - for me- gives life to people more than an entry in a phonebook can give.
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Amen to that! I've seen old census records in the US where they ask for number of years married, number of children and how many still living and so on. That type of info is crucial when you're trying to prove you have the right 'John Smith'.
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For years citizens, and groups, both men and women, and Human Rights activists have worked incredibly hard, and there are now very good inclusive Human Rights for everyone, laid down in law, regardless of Race, colour, creed, gender orientation, station in life, whatever!
So Andrew, dismissing your other controversial post, are you now saying that people should just have to put up and shut up, when verbally insulted, harassed in the workplace etc etc. or otherwise offended by others?
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For years citizens, and groups, both men and women, and Human Rights activists have worked incredibly hard, and there are now very good inclusive Human Rights for everyone, laid down in law, regardless of Race, colour, creed, gender orientation, station in life, whatever!
So Andrew, dismissing your other controversial post, are you now saying that people should just have to put up and shut up, when verbally insulted, harassed in the workplace etc etc. or otherwise offended by others?
Sadly the attitude you describe is very common. :(
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We don't have census info available here anyway, they're destroyed after the stats are done! Have to rely on Electoral Roll! That's not so bad, at least that's every 4 years!
No census info here either, also destroyed after stats extracted. Voters rolls as well for us ;D ;D
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So, the safest thing is also the simplest: Go back to enormous sheets of paper, archive-quality ink in your rapidograph pen, and invest in a large cardboard tube to keep it in, with a BIG box for all the backup papers, and then a large, locked, bomb-proof, fireproof, termite-proof shelter to keep it in - er, what do we do to to keep the key safe?
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So Andrew, dismissing your other controversial post, are you now saying that people should just have to put up and shut up, when verbally insulted, harassed in the workplace etc etc. or otherwise offended by others?
Not necessarily. I would prefer to say (trying to put it delicately) that some people may feel offended too easily, often by trivial things. I don't suppose I am much more or much less offended than other people, and I don't go out of my way to be offensive. But at my time of life I take a few minutes to cool down and usually decide that it's healthier to do that than make waves. So many issues are often not that important in the grand scheme of things.
This whole tiff began when I used a fairly common phrase to which a few Chatters took exception. From my angle that amounts to their telling me what language I should use - which in this particular instance was not directed personally at anyone. I don't find that 'offensive', just a bit patronising. Sorry.
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As to using your name in forums....
After experiencing cyber bullying, I used to be a moderator on a very large forum bigger than this one, which led to the need of police involvement, and I wasn't using my name either...
Just shows what can happen, when things go wrong... On this forum, yes I do use the name I'm known by but only my first name...
Guy, don't agree with what you say, is good manners, Yes face to face with somebody it's good manners go give your correct name, or in my case the name I'm normally known by.. But not on the internet, as you're not face to face with somebody, you can't see or hear the person you are interacting with, so have no clue what's so ever whether they are a possible friend or foul...
Your mention of cyber bullying exemplifies why we need to use our real names on forums, bullies feel protected when they can hide behind pseudonyms.
This feeling of protection allows the cowards to carry on their bullying.
When they have to use their real names if the police have to get involved it is far easier for them to take action they it is if they have to trace the culprits first.
As to your second point it has always been good manners to identify oneself even in correspondence which does not involve talking or not face to face interaction.
Do we not, for instance, put our full address at the top of letters and sign them at the end.
Cheers
Guy
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The word condom was used in his Sex Education Classes when my son started at Secondary School in the early 1980's.
It may surprise some that the word condom (spelled condon) was used in a 1666 birth rate report and by the early 18th century was in common use, but it is not certain if the primary use of condoms in those days was for prophylaxis or for contraception.
Even today however many people seem to be too timid to use the word and avoid using the name in favour of one of the many slang terms for it.
Cheers
Guy
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So Andrew, dismissing your other controversial post, are you now saying that people should just have to put up and shut up, when verbally insulted, harassed in the workplace etc etc. or otherwise offended by others?
Not necessarily. I would prefer to say (trying to put it delicately) that some people may feel offended too easily, often by trivial things. I don't suppose I am much more or much less offended than other people, and I don't go out of my way to be offensive. But at my time of life I take a few minutes to cool down and usually decide that it's healthier to do that than make waves. So many issues are often not that important in the grand scheme of things.
This whole tiff began when I used a fairly common phrase to which a few Chatters took exception. From my angle that amounts to their telling me what language I should use - which in this particular instance was not directed personally at anyone. I don't find that 'offensive', just a bit patronising. Sorry.
Andrew, may I mention that "up the spout" is not a phrase that is commonly used within my circle of friends. The word 'pregnant' is not too 'clinical' for any RootsChat thread. I chose to use the word 'derogatory' in my first response. To me that can include such actions as denigrading, belittling, slighting, and of course, to me those actions are offensive.
Guy, may I mention that my use of the expression 'French Letters" was not using slang, but as standard words as my later post noted.
The word condom was used in his Sex Education Classes when my son started at Secondary School in the early 1980's.
It may surprise some that the word condom (spelled condon) was used in a 1666 birth rate report and by the early 18th century was in common use, but it is not certain if the primary use of condoms in those days was for prophylaxis or for contraception.
Even today however many people seem to be too timid to use the word and avoid using the name in favour of one of the many slang terms for it.
Cheers
Guy
To many of my generation, living all our lives in Australia, the word Condom is simply another standard word for French Letters.
Children like all young animals learn by example, if the parents are secretive the children become secretive as a result they will get hurt in the long run.
Up to a point everyone, not just children, learns by example, but many don't accept everything they are 'told', and only learn by experience and making painful mistakes (as you pointed out Guy) and sometimes not even then ....
The obvious example in the context of Family History is the number of girls who get 'up the spout' despite being instructed how to avoid it ?
I think that is a rather derogatory remark Andrew.
Andrew,
I simply do not see it as a trivial thing for a female to be pregnant and to carry the baby for nine months and to then be the primary care giver for say eighteen more years or more. The obvious example in the context of Family History is the number of girls who get 'up the spout' despite being instructed how to avoid it ?
Perhaps the differences between Britain and her former colonies are continuing to increase, even to the meanings of the words used.
Cheers, JM
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duplicated post, sorry.
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I simply do not see it as a trivial thing for a female to be pregnant and to carry the baby for nine months and to then be the primary care giver for say eighteen more years or more.
Cheers, JM
Of course that is not a trivial thing - I'm not sure how you assume that my remark sought to trivialise it. I used a fairly harmless phrase (it's in my Longmans dictionary as 'slang') which someone on the other side of the globe disliked. My next post started 'Apologies ...', but that was not enough, I had to be a misogynist.
I joined Rootschat to discuss Family History, not to go way off topic. The mods will tell me if I overstep the mark. Correspondence closed. Andrew
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I can't remember the last time I heard the phrase "French Letters" used in conversation?!
Probably when I was a pre-teen!
Such a quaint old-fashioned phrase?
In my experience we always used the word condom, or the brand-name Durex.
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Durex was the popular name for a brand of sticky tape in Oz :D
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01h01/
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Durex ;D
Yes, ;D in broad daylight, Monday to Friday, everyone knew how to apply it to just about everything. I recall it well. :) It was perhaps one of the more expensive brands. Then it became BEAR TAPE
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/199224210 25 July 1952
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/48655176 20 Sept 1951 .... Durex, endorsed by the POST OFFICE .... excellent for parcels except for registered parcels ;D ;D
There's also the Durex factory that made fireplaces.... in Queensland.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/50561703 Courier Mail 30 March 1953
And Durex as Wall panelling back in the 1930s
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/22015147 9 Sept 1932
So another barrier to genealogy in the future will be the differences in meaning to the words used.
So back to NSW Australia and the 1810s, 1820s.... land for sale at UPSET prices. Land title searches are a significant part of family history researching in NSW. civil parish maps can provide details of title holders, mortgages, neighbours, and in 19th century it is a grand way to seek out females, as they were entitled to own land in their own name from first settlement days. (Today we would write land for sale at SETUP prices.... )
Cheers, JM
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Will language itself become a barrier to family history in the future? We can't assume that English will always be the dominant tongue in the UK, USA, or even Australia.
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Interesting question. My initial thought would be no. We would adapt - or be forced to adapt- to the new language and records would continue in that language.
Maybe those from an eastern Bloc country can comment. I know the Russification of languages AND History really upset those ''satellite countries''
I agree with mam that the differences in English will be a barrier.
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I can't remember the last time I heard the phrase "French Letters" used in conversation?!
Probably when I was a pre-teen! Such a quaint old-fashioned phrase?
As this thread has drifted into the terminology of contraception, may I just add that in my earlier ill-fated post that topic was not uppermost in my mind. I was thinking of a time when such methods were not available to the majority, who had to rely on abstinence or guesswork. As a result girls did indeed get 'up the spout' for simply not doing what their mothers (probably) told them - 'don't let him get his hands on yer'. And of course there was much more stigma to live with.
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.....'don't let him get his hands on yer'.
That's probably about all they were told Andrew! And a lot of them probably didn't have a clue what it meant anyway!
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Surprisingly, Andrew, the "stigma" was really only an issue from the Victorian times through to the 1960's or 70's.
@DavidG, do you mean things like fritz/devon, etc? ;D
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And in many families in rural NSW there was very little 'stigma' during the early Victorian era as there were few clergy and long distances between small settlements. So what may have been 'stigma' in the English counties, may not have been so significant, beyond the seas, in the English colonies. At no stage in NSW colonial times was there ever a law/regulation/general order making the Church of England the Established Church. There was no Establish Church in NSW.
As NSW included a huge geographic area (from at least 1788 to say 1859 when Qld was hived off) it can actually be helpful to check the online indexes for NSW BDM to find BDM events recorded there for ceremonies held throughout the South Sea Islands, New Zealand, Victoria, Tasmania, Queensland, as well as what is now the much smaller land mass of NSW.
There are of course BDM for NSW events (NSW being that larger territory noted above) held by the (C of E) Bishop of Calcutta, yes, the sub-continent :) for several decades commencing from the first settlement and for much of the penal era (so from 1788 forward into the 1800s) .
Even in the 21st century the tyranny of distance between localities throughout the continent of Australia has significant impact on the time it takes for a person to get to their local doctor, dentist, hospital (measure this in several hours in the car in each direction). In the larger states and in the Northern Territory, the tyranny of distance has a greater impact on those who live and work in remote locations.
I am sure there will be other unique conditions existing in other jurisdictions throughout the world, and so to me, one significant barrier to genealogy in the future will be to what degree the family history buff even knows to seek out the administrative rules and regulations that governed the actual creation of the official document they are looking at, at that future time.
Cheers, JM
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Surprisingly, Andrew, the "stigma" was really only an issue from the Victorian times through to the 1960's or 70's.
@DavidG, do you mean things like fritz/devon, etc? ;D
And, Pine, the name changes made to towns throughout Australia .... I immediately think of Holbrook in NSW (the town with the submarine parked in the park in the main street) ....
Official records : Ten Mile Post Office, then Germanton, then Holbrook :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holbrook,_New_South_Wales
http://www.historyaustralia.org.au/ifhaa/towns/holbrook.htm
Cheers, JM
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I sometime wonder if handfasting marriages were officially recorded, if the couple didn't later marry later. Or if the woman was later discarded because of whatever! I've been googling that, quite interesting!
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:) yes !
And then there's burials at sea .....
And then there's names on Memorials, especially confusing to some, if the death occurred in say NSW but they are memorialised on a tombstone in Scotland.
And then there's civil birth registrations at NSW BDM for babies born up to eighteen months before arriving in NSW (this in the colonial era), so a baby born in England in say from mid 1854 until about 1870s with a GRO reference and a family search baptism found etc can also have a civil birth registration in NSW... if the baby arrived in NSW within the first eighteen months of being born (of course, this was in the 1850s and 1860s after civil registration commenced in NSW 1 March 1856).
ADD, and the births registered in NSW can show variations in spelling, and even in surnames ..... can be fun tracking down and sorting out 'fact' from 'factoid' :) :) usually the actual date of birth, together with the stated location of the place of birth as per NSW BDM cert will resolve any confusions. :)
Cheers, JM
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Relationship register :) 21st century style for NSW BDM :)
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/marriages/relationship-register.aspx
Cheers, JM
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Good one majm. And below some interesting twists in Language usage.
Modified to add, sorry looks like I've put up the wrong link, will keep looking!
And Now I've lost the darned link! Specsavers time!
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"Provided at least one partner lives in NSW, you can apply to register a relationship in NSW"
"A couple does not have to live together to be eligible to register their relationship."
That's a direct quote or two :) from that link re NSW Relationships register
Yes, Jaybelnz, that's some interesting twists there too in your links :D :D.
So I wonder if there are other jurisdictions with registers like the NSW one, .... you don't have to be living together to be a couple. ;D ;D ::) ::)
Of course, being NSW BDM, the register itself is likely to be restricted access, and perhaps have the same restrictions as the marriage register ... 50 years before index entry is displayed online, and 50 years before members of the general public can gain access to the register.....
Cheers, JM
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http://www.abs.gov.au/websitedbs/censushome.nsf/home/2016
2016 Australian Census (9 August 2016) .....
Completing the Census online will be fast, easy, secure, environmentally friendly, and help to reduce the cost of the Census to the community.
Paper forms can be requested where needed and must be completed and returned in the Reply Paid envelope provided without delay.
Cheers, JM
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last updated 5 February 2016 (that's today of course)
http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/ViewContent?readform&view=ProductsbyCatalogue&Action=Expand&Num=2.2
Australian Bureau of Statistics
21. Historical Censuses (Pre 1996)
2101.0 Census of Population and Housing, 1991
2102.0 Census of Population and Housing, 1986
2103.0 Census of Population and Housing, 1981
2104.0 Census of Population and Housing, 1976
2105.0 Census of Population and Housing, 1971
2106.0 Census of Population and Housing, 1966
2107.0 Census of the Commonwealth of Australia, 1961
2108.0 Census of the Commonwealth of Australia, 1954
2109.0 Census of the Commonwealth of Australia, 1947
2110.0 Census of the Commonwealth of Australia, 1933
2111.0 Census of the Commonwealth of Australia, 1921
2112.0 Census of the Commonwealth of Australia, 1911
2113.0 National Register, 1939
2114.0 Supplementary Civilian Register, 1943
2115.0 City of Canberra: Population distribution, district by age at each census, population count or special count, 1943
This page last updated 5 February 2016
Also this link has info for NSW from earlier years.
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-12/short-guide-12
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/short-guide-7/short-guide-7#background
Cheers, JM
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Surprisingly, Andrew, the "stigma" was really only an issue from the Victorian times through to the 1960's or 70's.
No, I'm not surprised. That's just the period we are often looking at, and talking about. Though you won't ignore the existence of all those bastardy orders which were issued to ensure which parish paid for upkeep. I would guess those must have caused a bit of stigma somewhere.
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Even in the 21st century the tyranny of distance between localities throughout the continent of Australia has significant impact on the time it takes for a person to get to their local doctor, dentist, hospital (measure this in several hours in the car in each direction). In the larger states and in the Northern Territory, the tyranny of distance has a greater impact on those who live and work in remote locations.
Do you have Flying Vicars out there too, majm? :)
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Even in the 21st century the tyranny of distance between localities throughout the continent of Australia has significant impact on the time it takes for a person to get to their local doctor, dentist, hospital (measure this in several hours in the car in each direction). In the larger states and in the Northern Territory, the tyranny of distance has a greater impact on those who live and work in remote locations.
Do you have Flying Vicars out there too, majm? :)
There is at least one flying padre out of Broken Hill (I think he is still flying) and there may be others. Also Fly In, Fly Out ministers visit various mines in Western Australia. Politicians in outback electorates often fly around their electorate as they can be huge. One West Australian Federal Electorate is more than 7 times the area of Great Britain.
Andy
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Yes, Andrew, as Andy said, Flying Vicars ..... one of the early ones just happens to be one of my living relatives who is not an RChatter, but who reads my posts, and who has read this thread several times. The people mentioned in the following link are known to my extended family, but are not members of my extended family. http://www.apwb.net/missions/bush-church-aid-bca
May I mention of course that perhaps one of the reasons in the English colonies, particularly the ones here in Australia. that there has been less 'stigma' around babies born outside of a formal marriage can be attributed to the lack of any process re bastardy orders. You will likely find that the clergy were not the originators of that 'stigma' afterall a baptism is not about the person's parentage, but about the person herself or himself. The condition of their parents is of no significance to the sacrament.
May I mention at times it can be important when posting on the Common Room Board to remember that there can be questions posed, topics raised, that are not limited to providing information about the English Home Counties, and perhaps it would be sensible to mention at least the relevant jurisdiction when providing some of the remarks. It would be helpful in the readers coming to a better understanding of some of the remarks.
....... That's just the period we are often looking at, and talking about. Though you won't ignore the existence of all those bastardy orders which were issued to ensure which parish paid for upkeep. I would guess those must have caused a bit of stigma somewhere.
Cheers, JM
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May I mention at times it can be important when posting on the Common Room Board to remember that there can be questions posed, topics raised, that are not limited to providing information about the English Home Counties,
When refering to the need to ensure posters are aware what jurisdiction a comment refers to, its worth bearing in mind that the English "Home Counties" only refers to the counties that surround London and not all counties in England. ;D While I, and probably many others in the UK, appreciate you may be intending to refer to the whole of England, use of the phrase relating to the whole of England is not actually accurate. ;)
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For some light reading ;D
Here's a particular general order (newspaper cutting in link below) issued by the NSW Governor Lachlan Macquarie, a Scotsman. You can see it was issued in 1810. So historically, NSW was a penal colony. Some of those transported beyond the seas under sentence of a civil court had been emancipated. Some were still serving sentences, some were en route to NSW. Macquarie changed many of the former penal practices, and he established order out of dis-order. For there had been a revolt, a coup d'etat so to write.... and so there was a Military Dictatorship/Republic to be ousted, and a former Governor to be despatched back to England along with those who had overthrown him.
Within just weeks of Macquarie taking up his NSW accommodations, and commencing his active duties as governor, he issued a number of General Orders (remember there was no Parliament here in NSW at that time).
So here's one of the General Orders for you to contemplate : (enjoy the words as much as the construct and the possible outcomes for these G.O.s to be obeyed to their fullest extent.)
And then please remember that Macquarie gave NSW the G.O.s that resulted in our initial Early Church Records for Baptisms (of all denominations), Burials, and Weddings.... as G.O.s also issued in 1810 ;D
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/627938 Sydney Gazette 3 March 1810.
So, there has been many differences between English admin and Australian admin for centuries. It took a Scot to sort it out here. :P :P :P
Cheers, JM
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May I mention at times it can be important when posting on the Common Room Board to remember that there can be questions posed, topics raised, that are not limited to providing information about the English Home Counties,
When refering to the need to ensure posters are aware what jurisdiction a comment refers to, its worth bearing in mind that the English "Home Counties" only refers to the counties that surround London and not all counties in England. ;D While I, and probably many others in the UK, appreciate you may be intending to refer to the whole of England, use of the phrase relating to the whole of England is not actually accurate. ;)
Fair enough, I won't edit my post, but I was perhaps referring to the "Home Counties" as being England .... definitely not including Wales, or Scotland or any part of Ireland. :)
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JM I guessed you were refering to the counties of England as a whole, but obviously many people on RC live in the UK and will most likely know that "Home Counties" actually refers to a small part of England and not the whole of the country which would make the use of the phrase relating to the country in its entirely a little confusing. ;D
Its also worth remembering that the Welsh parishes would also most likely have followed the same rules as the Church of England, although obvously in the case of the Welsh non-conformist chapels the rules would have been different.
That said, its a fair point that in the Common Room we all need to remember to ensure we qualify posts refering to a specific area in these circumstances as rules and regulations vary from country to country.
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So, perhaps there's hope that in 2116 that Genealogists will continue to enjoy finding out the various admin processes that prevailed at the time their 2016 ancestors were alive. I have living relatives (first cousins, all born in NSW) around the globe working in (at last count) 17 different jurisdictions. Some have settled there, some are FIFO workers, and some are considering settling in those 'foreign' lands. Some have children born 'overseas'.
To me, it is up to the family history buffs of that era to determine how they interpret the records they find, just as it is up to each one of us to determine how we interpret what records we find and to always strive to enjoy the hobby.
Cheers, JM.
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Yes, well put smudwhisk, and in Australia the rules and regulations vary across at least eight different jurisdictions. ;D
Cheers, JM
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Yes, well put smudwhisk, and in Australia the rules and regulations vary across at least eight different jurisdictions. ;D
As, I believe, do the railway gauges? That must make for some inconvenience - or have things changed?
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That said, its a fair point that in the Common Room we all need to remember to ensure we qualify posts refering to a specific area in these circumstances as rules and regulations vary from country to country.
As a 'new boy' I learnt quite quickly that there is a wide range of viewpoints among RCs, and a fairly large contingent from the southern hemisphere. But having learnt that, I think it could become tedious if every post had to have caveats inserted. It's more useful to know easily which patch contributors belong to. It's often clear, but not always.
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To me, it is up to the family history buffs of that era to determine how they interpret the records they find, just as it is up to each one of us to determine how we interpret what records we find and to always strive to enjoy the hobby.
Cheers, JM.
Yes, quite so that I would imagine will always be a basic requirement.
Cheers
Guy
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That said, its a fair point that in the Common Room we all need to remember to ensure we qualify posts refering to a specific area in these circumstances as rules and regulations vary from country to country.
As a 'new boy' I learnt quite quickly that there is a wide range of viewpoints among RCs, and a fairly large contingent from the southern hemisphere. But having learnt that, I think it could become tedious if every post had to have caveats inserted. It's more useful to know easily which patch contributors belong to. It's often clear, but not always.
Probably not clear from my post, but I would suggest that it really depends on the discussion subject matter and not really necessary all the time. In any case, as many of us have surname interests at the bottom of the posts with places, its often easy to work out where many are located.
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Yes, well put smudwhisk, and in Australia the rules and regulations vary across at least eight different jurisdictions. ;D
As, I believe, do the railway gauges? That must make for some inconvenience - or have things changed?
There is now a standard gauge across Australia for goods trains, and interstate trains. Regarding each state's rail network, I can't say. Nothing like the Lynton and Barnstaple Railway of course. ;)
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Andrew, most people have their location on their profile, as you do!
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Andrew, most people have their location on their profile, as you do!
As I said - it's often clear, but not always ... :)
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Andrew, most people have their location on their profile, as you do!
Unfortunately I believe it is the opposite. I have noticed that people don't have their location on their profile, and I believe they should. Just country is adequate - there is no need for specifics, but it can often help when replying to know where a rootschatter is living. I agree that it is often/sometimes evident. :)
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I agree that it is often/sometimes evident. :)
So the flag gives it away? :D
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I agree that it is often/sometimes evident. :)
So the flag gives it away? :D
Yep.
And Fluttering flags do too
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I agree that it is often/sometimes evident. :)
So the flag gives it away? :D
Ha ha, no David. I have avatars turned off. ;D
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I have noticed that people don't have their location on their profile, and I believe they should. Just country is adequate - there is no need for specifics, but it can often help when replying to know where a rootschatter is living. I agree that it is often/sometimes evident. :)
Thanks Ruskie,
Just checked my profile & after all those years I didn't realise my location wasn't filled in so I've now done that & added a wee bit extra ;D
Annie
ADDED......My avatar shows a map of my specialist interest/knowledge though :P
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If NZ flag changes as a result of a current referendum, then I will try that one for a change from my G Grandparents.
The chances are our flag will either stay as it is now, or a new one altogether (chosen from 4 designs from previous referendum! Very low numbers voting!
Cost to taxpayers - much better things for the Govt to be spending money on than 2 postal referendums!
This next and final vote will be current flag vs new flag!