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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: jacquelineve on Friday 22 January 16 13:00 GMT (UK)
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After researching for nearly 10 yrs on one particular branch of my tree, I was recently contacted
by a direct descendant.. very happy, but also tinged with sadness..as my father ..who would have been over the moon, passed away a few days later.
The person who was in contact, is
a "trained social historian"and said that my research was
wrong..even though I supplied her with info from birth/marriage.death certs....parish register
records..census ..and newspaper reports.
I have asked for her evidence supporting her claims...and am quite happy to admit that I may
have been on the wrong track, but so far nothing.I suppose in a way I'm bowing to her "superior
knowledge "of the chartist movement", but all my research leans towards illig. children, who made up names for their fathers when marrying. All so simple!! as far as I'm concerned.
What should I do?
Jackie
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Don't know what she means by trained but it does n't necessarily mean she's right. Perhaps she was hoping for Certs from you?
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Hi
My immediate reaction was/is "scam" or trying to illicit £ for "research work".
If the info is free, treat it like all other free info and review it carefully, being prepared to reject it.
If the info is "chargeable", reject it "out of hand".
I feel sure that there are RootsChatters who will check, all or some specific, details from your tree info should you ask.
Even checking this info from another source.
Did I forget to say the word "free".
Ray
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Hello Ray
Thank you for replying.
I know she is a genuine desc. of this family, but just wish she had followed up her research, or at
least passed on what she had found.
Jackie
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Weste
Thank you for replying.
I think I was just too happy to hear from someone desc. from this branch of the family.
Jackie
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I have also had relatives tell me that my research into a particular "family legend" will lead to nothing. It didn't, but along the way I uncovered things that I suspect they would rather have stayed "buried" ( I have the wills, docs etc to prove it)
So it may just be that your research has skirted close to truths that they don't want to know about. You could perhaps try once more to see if she will share her work and show you where you went "wrong"
As Ray said if you post queries on here there are plenty of helpful folk who can help you out.
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Why - Give Up -
you may be right and she may be wrong.
Up to you but I would want to prove myself right
xin
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I would say that in order to prove your research wrong, a "trained" social historian should be able to provide roughly as many words of argument, and refer to roughly the same number of sources, as you took to establish your research argument in the first place.
If they haven't provided that information, then stand by your research until proved otherwise!
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I agree with others on here. Until she can prove beyond doubt that she is right and that you are wrong, I would take what she says with a pinch of salt. It could be that the reason you haven't heard back is, that after receiving details from you, she realises that SHE was wrong and doesn't want to lose face by admitting it.
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Thank you to all for your thoughts.
I think I'll try asking one more time, asking for her "evidence," if nothing comes of this..then..just
have to say thanks + goodbye. So sad + frustrating!
Jack
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Hey jacquelineve,
The Chartists is something else I know nothing about, wiki'd and a little wiser now :D.
How fascinating to have this period and its impassioned people as something to research because of doing family history. 8)
Keep up your interest, be thorough and methodical, verify, verify, verify
and as all before me have said ... share your conundrums here, because a problem aired and shared can be halved, and even better solved by clever RC'ers
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I agree with others on here. Until she can prove beyond doubt that she is right and that you are wrong, I would take what she says with a pinch of salt. It could be that the reason you haven't heard back is, that after receiving details from you, she realises that SHE was wrong and doesn't want to lose face by admitting it.
I totally agree. She could be altering all her tree as we speak with your documented proof!! Some people cannot admit it when they are wrong. ::)
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It took me years to work out possibly why my g.grandad used two different surnames and
fathers when marrying(twice) and to someone else..may all seem a little boring, but to me..I was
like a dog with a bone!! and yes..I'm going to stand by my research.
Jackie
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After researching for nearly 10 yrs on one particular branch of my tree, I was recently contacted
by a direct descendant.. very happy, but also tinged with sadness..as my father ..who would have been over the moon, passed away a few days later.
The person who was in contact, is
a "trained social historian"and said that my research was
wrong..even though I supplied her with info from birth/marriage.death certs....parish register
records..census ..and newspaper reports.
I have asked for her evidence supporting her claims...and am quite happy to admit that I may
have been on the wrong track, but so far nothing.I suppose in a way I'm bowing to her "superior
knowledge "of the chartist movement", but all my research leans towards illig. children, who made up names for their fathers when marrying. All so simple!! as far as I'm concerned.
What should I do?
Jackie
Being trained or being a professional simply mean the person has gone on a course or the person accepts payment, it does not mean they can do research any better than anyone else or that they have greater access, or access to more records than anyone else.
From what you have written you have copies records to support your theories and so far she has nothing to give any weight to hers other than a claim to be trained.
Without anything to support her view her view is worthless.
I know which I would rather have!
Cheers
Guy
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If any one is interested..here is my g.grandfathers birth reg.
John Evan Ellis Sept qtr 1851 Dudley.
Years ago I went to local reg office to apply for this birth cert.I had the correct mothers christian name
but nothing for his father,they were much more helpful then, when I asked if there was no father listed, I was given a nod!so..did'nt purchase cert.
If anyone would like to chase this up through census or whatever..his mother was Catherine Ellis
bapt.1824 St Thomas Dudley - William+ Sarah Ellis..hope you come to the same outcome as me.
Jackie
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Hi
1861 Dudley Worcester RG9 2024 107 13
Catherine says she is Unmarried, Tailoress
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John Evan Ellis 9
Eva Ellis 4
Kate Ellis 1
All b Dudley Worcester
Ray
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Hello Ray
Yes..my findings also.
Jackie
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Hi
1861 Should have also mentioned boarder
Charles Mills 60 b IoW Tailor
1871 She is living with
Charles Mills Head 60 b IoW Tailor
Catherine 47 DAU MARRIED
John E 18
Eva 13
Kate 10
Ada 7
All b Dudley Worcester
Ray
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So who did John Evan E marry?
All details from the Marr cert?
. . . . . and the detail from b certs of Eva/Kate/Ada?
Ray
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Hi
1851 census
Charles Mills 49 Tailor
Sarah Mills 55 Tailoress wife
Catherine Ellis daur 26 Tailoress unm
Address King St Dudley. Was Catherine Charles Mills stepdaughter?
William
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Hello William
That is what I've always presumed..can't find a marriage between Sarah Ellis + Charles
Mills.
Jackie
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Re: "Trained Researcher" - that means absolutely nothing.
Don't assume you are the one who has it wrong.
(Training is not the same as educating, by the way - perhaps she means she's "sat by Nellie" until she knows what Nellie knows - and an open, curious mind is important when seeking the past of most families, isn't it, rather than ploughing along one deep furrow in the same way as always).
People on here will check everything out. You have a bevy of experts at your command, a resource unequalled. Can she have the same? Being an "expert" on Chartism doesn't mean being an expert on each and every Chartist.
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Ray
Bear in mind info from 1871 census eg.John Evan Ellis - occupation and Ch.Mills
1881 cens.Maughan St Dudley RG11/2875 folio 122 page 18
John Evans head unm. 28 tailor Dudley
Sarah Matthews visitor w 27 Dudley
Marriage St James Church Lower Gornal 19 April 1885
John Mills 30 bach Father John Mills tailor dec.
+
Sarah Mathews 29 widow Father Wlm Mason labourer dec.
Witnesses Elizabeth Hartill + Wlm Henry Morton.
Jackie
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Hi
Sarah Ellis would possibly be her married name . . . . .
Ray
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Catharine Ellis bap 14 Mar 1824 Dudley, Worcester
Parents: William and Sarah Ellis
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. . . . . so the marriage Sarah ("Ellis") to Charles Mills may really be in her maiden name NOT married name.
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1841
Charles Mills M 35-39
Sarah Mills F 40-44
Katharine Elliss F 15-19 Worcestershire
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Nice one Vronlady, beat me by a long way . . . . . . :)
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Refer back to 1851 census..mother Sarah Mills(Ellis) born Yorkshire.
Just hoping someone can find the same as me.
Jackie
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Hey Jackie,
I'm not use to Midlands names and places and very few of my Devon farmer lot exist outside of wedlock, so your search is like a soap opera :D
I am not getting an obvious Dudley Chartist connection. Please tell us.
Mills and Mason (widow Matthews maiden name) being the only Dudley surnames within your information that I can see online.
William Ellis m Sarah Littlewood 1821 Kingswinford.
Kingswinford and Dudley very close together. And also Sedgley where these surnames occur and where Mills m Matthews.
When and were did William Ellis die?
When did Sarah?
Lots of Sarah Littlewood in adjacent villages on FreeReg, not good bapt dates for your census and only 2 in Yorkshire, good dates for Sarah Mills.
I can't find Charles Mills bapt Isle of Wight c 1800.
John Mills and Sarah Matthews in the 1885 m cert info are not the same age as the people in the 1881 census. What makes John E E = John Mills son of John Mills?
Have you got them as Mills or Ellis in later census?
You also mention a 2nd marriage for John Evan Ellis. Please tell us when Sarah died and John remarried.
Does Catherine Ellis have siblings? who is the Catherine m James Banks 1854 in Dudley? is Catherine married ever? Who is father to her children? Have you found bastardy papers for any of her children? Was this still done mid 1800's?
What significance is Evans in John E E's name?
And what happens to his sisters? Unmarried Eva and her son John Percy Ellis are with Cath 1901 and 1911.
Salute,
Janelle
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Of COURSE you shouldn't give up.
As others have said ... "trained" means not a lot. Every driver who has ever taken a course of driving lessons and passed their test is a "trained driver" ... some of them are good drivers, some of them are indifferent drivers, and some of them are appalling drivers. But they're all "trained drivers". (Oh yes ... and some of them sometimes crash, too ... )
I'm a trained lawyer. Every time I go to court, there's a trained lawyer on the other side. And sure as eggs is eggs, 50% of the trained lawyers in the room are going to turn out to be wrong. It's the nature of the thing.
History is the study of the written record. Nothing more, nothing less. So what does the written record show, and what deductions can you make from it? You've got your evidence, you've got your reasoning, and you've got your deductions. It someone comes along and says they think your deductions are wrong, then it's fair enough if they are going to explain how they have reached a different conclusion on the same evidence (or, better still, show you the evidence that they are relying on to reach a different conclusion, and it turns out that they've got something which you haven't).
But "I'm a trained historian therefore if we've reached different conclusions I must be right" ... ? What breathtaking arrogance! Even my brother wouldn't claim that ... and HE'S one of the world's leading history professors. So I must know what I'm talking about, mustn't I ...
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I wish there was a like button on here. Or even a thumbs up. I especially like your analogy about "trained" drivers, so true!! :D
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Description of the Century : Trained driver .... :) :) :) :) :) :)
Best explanation ever
I am in NSW Australia, jbml, may I please use your explanation when discussing just about any topic (not just family history) with family and friends and workmates too :)
Cheers, JM (NSW centric)
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I've done a clean search using just John Evan Ellis b 1851 Dudley RD as my starting point.
Dudley 1861 John Evan Ellis, A9, b Dudley, with mother Catherine Ellis, A34, Unm, Tailoress, b Dudley. Also in the household Charles Mills, Boarder, A60, Unm, Tailor, b IOW, and Catherine's 2 daughters, Eva, A4, and Kate, A1.
From FreeBMD, John Evan Ellis b 3Q 1851 Dudley RD, died 3Q 1894 Dudley RD A42.
Going backwards in the censuses:
Dudley 1851 Catherine Ellis, A26, Unm, Tailoress, b Dudley, shown as daughter with Charles Mills, A49, Mar, Tailor, b (Oclerwhite?) and Sarah Mills, A55, Mar, Tailoress, b Yorkshire
Dudley 1841 Katherine Elliss, A15, b Worcs, with Charles Mills, A35, Taylor and Sarah Mills, A40, neither of whom was born Worcs.
Then moving forwards we have:
Dudley 1871 Charles Mills, A60, Widr, Tailor, b Isle of Wight and Catherine Ellis, Dau, A47, with children John E, A18, Eva, A13, Kate, A10, and Ada, A7.
From FreeReg, there is a baptism of Catherine Ellis on 14 Mar 1824, dau of William Ellis, Cordwainer, and Sarah. 3 days later, there is the baptism of Edward, with the same named parents where William is also a Cordwainer. However, there is nothing to say that these are the same parents or if it is just a coincidence of names and occupation.
William Ellis burials from FreeReg are a bit confusing, with one dying in 1825 aged 31, and one in 1828 aged 33. Either or neither of these might be Catherine's father. There is no record online that I can find where a Charles Mills marries a Sarah Ellis.
In Dudley 1881, Catherine is A57, and is recorded as Mar crossed out with Widow overwritten. She still has Eva, Kate, and Ada with her, all Unmarried.
Dudley 1891 Catherine is A60, and a Widow, with Eva, A24, Unm, and Ada, A23, also Unm, both of whom are Tailoresses, and John P A11mths, grandson.
Dudley 1901 she is A76, Wid, Tailoress, with her unmarried daughter Eva, and a grandson Percy A11
[I can see on ACOM 9 Public Trees that have Catherine as the daughter of William Ellis and Sarah Harcourt (not born Yorkshire). There are 4 different trees with one on 4 times, two twice, and one once. All have more or less the same information re William and Sarah, with William dying in 1855 and Sarah in 1842. (One has John and Eva as Catherine's children, and then Kate and Ada twice each.) It looks as though one person has entered the details and the others have just copied them over without checking the information. If this is the sort of information that your "trained" person is quoting, in my opinion you can discount it.]
[I just googled John Evan Ellis and found an entry from you on a forum from 2008 where you include the following info re John's marriages.
1 John Mills(Ellis) +Sarah Matthews St James Lower Gornal 1885
Father John Mills tailor dec.
2 John Ellis +Bridget Durkin St Aug.Dudley 1892
Father Charles Ellis tailor dec.
From that, I found John with his family, and the second wife remarried:
Dudley 1891 John Mills and Sarah, with children including Ada bc1886
Dudley 1901 Bridget Cain with step-children Ada bc 1886 and James bc 1894
You have to think what sort of questions were asked and what answers might have been given.
It appears that John went by the surname Mills for a part of his life. The vicar asks his name, and then the name of his father. If he said "the same as mine" it becomes - John Mills, or it may have been just John or Charles. The occupation speaks for itself as it is consistent. The vicar would then enter appropriately. It may not have been an outright lie.]
The only thing I would say is that you should get all of the certificates you can if you haven't already done so. It is all too easy to get onto the wrong track. However, I've gone from your assertion that the John Evan born in 1851 is the correct one, and everything ties in with what you (and the others on this thread who have looked) have already found.
There is a large gap of 5 years between John Evan and Eva being born. Some time between 1851 and 1861 it appears that Catherine's mother died, so there is a possibility that she had John to one man, and then took over her mother's "duties". It was evidently quite well known for a daughter or step-daughter to have such a thing happen.
Your question was should you give up - I think you know the answer to that, don't you?
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Many Thanks to Janelle-Jbml and Bostin Lil for taking the time and interest, to reply.
My theory...may be a bit too simple..Charles Mills, although not married to Cath's Mother Sarah Ellis
(Mills 1841+51 cens.) was possibly a step-father to Cath. step-grandfather to her children
Bapt.Sarah Littlewood 1797 Sheffield Yorksh. Parents John+Catherine
(Found Sarah's mother + siblings in census at Quarry Bank kingswinford Staffs))
Sarah has an illig son John Littlewood 1820 Dudley Worcs
Correct marriage 1821 Kingswinford Wlm Ellis + Sarah Littlewood
Bapt Dudley Cath + Edward Ellis 1824 parents Wlm + Sarah
Possible burial St Thomas Dudley 1829 Wlm Ellis age 33...age near enough fits with..
Baptism Wlm Ellis 1797 Oldswinford Worcs Parents Wlm + Elizabeth
1841 Charles + Sarah Mills + Cath. Ellis Dudley
1841 John Littlewood (1820) lodging next door but one..to John..Edward Ellis (have Edwards
marriage info. Father Wlm Ellis shoemaker (dec)
1851 Charles + Sarah Mills + Cath Ellis Dudley.
1851 Birth John Evan Ellis (When I applied for cert.mothers name correct but no father..so did'nt
buy)
For anyone who has not been bored out of their brains!! will post more later.
Jackie
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Births of who I believe to be...John Evan Ellis's sisters.....all born Dudley Worcs.
Eva Elliss 1857
Kate ..... 1860
1861 census .Charles Mills-Cath Ellis + children-Dudley
1861 census A possible for Sarah Ellis born Yorksh.1796 at Wolverhampton (nurse + a Dudley link)
Birth Ada Elliss 1863 at Dudley
1871 Ch.Mills +Cath Ellis + children -Himley Rd Dudley (Eve Hill area)
1871 Sarah Ellis (Yorksh.) living with son John Littlewood at West Bromwich Staffs
1873 Death 23 April Charles Mills buried 30 April St. Thomas Dudley-Abode Eve Hill
Will now concentrate on John Evan Ellis(1851)
1881 John Evans + Sarah Mathews(widow-visitor)
1883 Birth Bertie Mills (before marriage?)
1885 Marriage 19th. April St James Ch. Lower Gornal
John Mills 30 bach. Father John Mills tailor dec.
+
Sarah Matthews 29 widow Father Wlm Mason labourer
(I have the details of Sarah Mason's 1st marriage to Dan Matthews ..her Father Wlm Mason lab.)
Children of John Mills + Sarah...all reg Dudley
Bertie Mills 1883
Ada .... 1885
John ..... 1888
Owen ...... 1891-1891
1891 cens Chapel St Dudley John + Sarah Mills + children
1892 Death Sarah Mills 9th Jan Buried 17 Jan St James Dudley age 38 Abode Chapel St.
1892 Marriage 6th Oct.St Augustines Ch Dudley
John Ellis 38 widower tailor Chapel St. Father Charles Ellis tailor dec.
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Bridget Durkin 37 spin. Chapel St Father James Durkin lab. dec.
1893 Birth 16 Nov James Ellis Father John Ellis journeyman tailor Moth.Bridget Ellis formerly Durkin
Chapel St.
1894 Death John Evan Ellis age 42 (died in Dudley Workhouse-buried St James)
1896 Marriage Bridget Ellis + John Cain
1901 Dudley Bridget Cain-Ada Ellis(step-daug,) James Ellis(son)
I sent all this info. to the person who contacted me, she said that as this family were members of
the chartist movement..they had to use different names when marrying..and some even got married
"in the open air"
There is a marriage for a Catherine Ellis to James Banks at dudley 1854..I researched this..and it
appears that this Cath's maiden name was Lowrey..before marrying Ellis.
The witnesses at Sarah Masons 1st marriage to Dan. Matthews were her brother John + his future
wife Clara Bate.
Bertram Mills(Ellis)(1883) was living with them in 1901 at Wath upon Dearne ..his name then was
Bertram Ellis Mason...he married his cousin(from this family) in 1904.
Phew!
Jackie
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I know nothing about the Chartists, but have done a quick search on the old Interweb.
I wonder if your correspondent is getting your Ellis family mixed up with others. There is a page here where William Ellis bc 1810 and Edward Ellis bc 1822 are mentioned in a list of those transported.
http://www.chartists.net/crime-and-punishment/chartists-transported-to-australia/
From newspapers October 1842, the William Ellis referred to above was a Potter from Burslem who was arrested in Glasgow, where he was working under an assumed name.
There are a couple of pages in the Wolverhampton Chronicle and Staffordshire Advertiser 19 October 1842, where numerous people are charged in connection with riots / house demolition / thefts etc - including Edward Ellis.
It might be worthwhile, if this person contacts you again, for you to ask them what evidence they have that your Ellis family were Chartists. There certainly were some Chartists called Ellis - but it isn't an uncommon name and it's a huge leap to connect to your family who are quite well documented, and with no suggestion of any Chartist connection.
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Description of the Century : Trained driver .... :) :) :) :) :) :)
Best explanation ever
I am in NSW Australia, jbml, may I please use your explanation when discussing just about any topic (not just family history) with family and friends and workmates too :)
Cheers, JM (NSW centric)
Of course you may.
(My brother's at UWS ... )
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Many Thanks to Janelle-Jbml and Bostin Lil for taking the time and interest, to reply.
My theory...may be a bit too simple..Charles Mills, although not married to Cath's Mother Sarah Ellis
(Mills 1841+51 cens.) was possibly a step-father to Cath. step-grandfather to her children
Bapt.Sarah Littlewood 1797 Sheffield Yorksh. Parents John+Catherine
(Found Sarah's mother + siblings in census at Quarry Bank kingswinford Staffs))
Sarah has an illig son John Littlewood 1820 Dudley Worcs
Correct marriage 1821 Kingswinford Wlm Ellis + Sarah Littlewood
Bapt Dudley Cath + Edward Ellis 1824 parents Wlm + Sarah
Possible burial St Thomas Dudley 1829 Wlm Ellis age 33...age near enough fits with..
Baptism Wlm Ellis 1797 Oldswinford Worcs Parents Wlm + Elizabeth
1841 Charles + Sarah Mills + Cath. Ellis Dudley
1841 John Littlewood (1820) lodging next door but one..to John..Edward Ellis (have Edwards
marriage info. Father Wlm Ellis shoemaker (dec)
1851 Charles + Sarah Mills + Cath Ellis Dudley.
1851 Birth John Evan Ellis (When I applied for cert.mothers name correct but no father..so did'nt
buy)
>>>
So Jackie,
forget that unhelpful professional, dismiss her from your mind !! :P
Can we please have a smiley doing a thumb-your-nose-action, I think that would be a more appropriate sentiment for what I feel on your behalf than the "mild' sticking-out-of-tongue. ;) :D ;D
You have your Ellis Mills Littlewood people sorted clearly enough. ;)
Being able to peg them every 10 years in census is wonderful. :)
Have you told us when Charles Mills died? do you have his cert? It might be interesting who was the informant, might fill out his place in these women's lives.
Just a shame that the father's name is so often not entered on birth certs of single women's children, as is your John Evan's case.
Me, I would buy all and any certs anyway, especially if the person was my direct line. I would want that piece of paper, especially now that the GRO is all digital and you get a copy of the real original entry, not a contemporary handwritten certified copy. :D
Salute,
Janelle
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Janelle
I'm afraid funds are limited re. certificates....but I do now feel quite happy with my research,
especially after every ones thoughts.
I have tried one last more time asking for ...well even the slightest of evidence supporting this
persons claims....have'nt heard back yet...so, I think I'll be putting an end to this.
Thank you ..and the same to every one else who has taken an interest.
Jackie
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Isn't it just as we all said early on? Best Expert Base in existence for Family History research? Glad it all seems to be working out so well. Keep us posted.
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I think the fact you haven't heard back from her says it all. Normally it is the other way round isn't it, people who are told their trees could be wrong not answering? In your case you are willing to listen and take into account what she says, but she doesn't seem that eager to try and convince you. I get the feeling that faced with the fact you have obviously collected evidence and not just name grabbed, maybe she is starting to doubt her own research.
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When I first heard from this person..I was over the moon..as I'd been trying for ages to make
contact with someone from this branch of the family..all I wanted to do...was pass my info on,but it
was also quite sad..as my Dad had passed away only two weeks before, and knew that branch
quite well ...from when he was a child.
Oh well..that's life!
Jackie
p.s Must add..that I've been well pleased with others that have agreed with my research (I shall
have a head as big as a bucket)
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Looks to me like your research is pretty sound. And without this "trained social historian" providing evidence to compare against yours, you've got no reason to doubt it.
I love the analogy about trained drivers. I guess a lot of us here don't have any official training in family history, but we're pretty good at it. In studying something we're genuinely interested in, we learn as we go, and have put a good number of hours into it. How can a certificate prove someone is a better researcher?
I also think it's a bit rude to jump in and tell someone their research is wrong, even if you're 100% sure they're wrong. But maybe that's just me....
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I agree Claire, and I think that is something that has been discussed many times on here. There are ways of approaching people if you think they may have gone wrong, and the "I'm right you're wrong," isn't one of them.
Lots of us on here are doing the free FutureLearn genealogy course which starts in March, does that mean that after we've completed it we can all claim to be "Trained Historians"?
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Lots of us on here are doing the free FutureLearn genealogy course which starts in March, does that mean that after we've completed it we can all claim to be "Trained Historians"?
Well I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge if we ever disagree over something ;D
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? What does that course involve?
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It's this one TY
https://www.futurelearn.com/courses/genealogy
Here is the thread on here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=737139.0
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Definitely don't give up. I'm wary of trusting someone who happy to tell you that you are wrong but not happy to tell you where you are wrong, why they think you are wrong and what they think the right thing is. Not saying I'm never wrong but but being told you are wrong, rubbish or whatever is pointless other than to hurt because without specifics and/or advice on how to fix/improve them thinking you are wrong is just that their opinion.
There is someone on ancestry who insists that my Dad is still alive and I am an idiot to think otherwise. Is answer to me pointing out I was sitting there holding his hand when he died, was there when doctor pronounced death, was there when his death was registered and watched his coffin at the funeral. Funnily enough he's a trained expert (according to him) ;)
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I agree Claire, and I think that is something that has been discussed many times on here. There are ways of approaching people if you think they may have gone wrong, and the "I'm right you're wrong," isn't one of them.
Lots of us on here are doing the free FutureLearn genealogy course which starts in March, does that mean that after we've completed it we can all claim to be "Trained Historians"?
Well you could claim it but it would not mean much.
Education and training starts the day you were born and ends the day you die, we can never say we are trained or we are educated only we have received training or we have received an education, but we must always be open to learn more as the world develops and new opportunities arise.
I started family history as an infant I learned how to write tracing original parish registers in churches (which is why I love computers as it allows people to read what I have written (my handwriting is atrocious).
I have enrolled in countless genealogy courses and read dozens of books on the subject, often knowing as much if not more than the tutor, but I have always learned something from each course I have been on.
There is always something more to learn a different technique or new approach or even newly released records or datasets that require different procedures.
Anyone who thinks they have been trained and know it all is in for a rude awakening.
Genealogy is one of the most complex subjects to study; it involves almost every other subject of education rolled into one, from geography to mathematics, through history and biology to palaeography. It encompasses social history, local history, population studies, politics, geology, languages and 101 different subjects and specialities.
The family historian must not only learn how to read historic records but understand what that record is recording and indeed why the record was created.
A classic example of this not used as much today as it was in the recent past is the IGI. Many genealogists even some “trained genealogists” used it as an index of parish records not realising that it was never an index of parish records but an index of the ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
As an index of parish records it contained errors and omissions but when used as an index of the ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints it was 100% accurate and complete.
Cheers
Guy
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TBH Guy I've never understood why the IGI indexes are so scant with information. If you have gone to the trouble and expense of copying billions of records and have all these people indexing for you then why not do a complete job and transcribe the whole of the parish record or whatever?
I know the aim of people who are church members of the LDS is to connect to their ancestors as part of their religion but I suppose I never "got it" that they could connect with forebears using just indexes and could most probably be completely barking up the wrong tree without seeing a full record of who they are and where they came from.
Does it not matter to them? Can you please explain it in simple terms? TIA
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Never give up.
I hope to one day find the maiden surname and marriage record of my ancestor Sarah who is on the 1841 London census but died before 1851 and said she was not born in county in 1841. Sarah Unknown, later Coombs then Bradford. I shall never give up trying.
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The IGI started life as the Computer File Index in 1969; a file that recorded the Ordinances of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS). Prior to 1969 the ordinances were recorded in the Temple Records Index Bureau (or TIB).
The above ordinances are Baptisms into the LDS, Endowments and Sealings and were normally performed in a LDS Temple though not always.
In 1981 the Computer File Index was renamed the International Genealogical Index (the IGI).
The names given on the index are the names used in the ordinances which may differ from the names one may expect to see in the parish register.
In other words they are the names of the people who were Baptised, Endowed or Sealed into the LDS (in person or if deceased by proxy).
Think of it like an appearance in court. The name given in court is the name which will appear in the court records. If someone later calls the court as says Jane Doe was not Jane Doe but really Jane Smith and provides proof that that was her name the court records will not be changed to record her as Jane Smith the original record will stand as it records the information given on the day of the court hearing. Anything else would be falsifying the history of the event.
However because the IGI also contains the reference to the source material the research can go back to the original record (which may be a parish register) and see what was recorded in the original record. Not all information on the IGI came from parish registers some information came from Bishop’s Transcripts some information came from 3rd party transcripts (such as the Oxfordshire Marriage Index) and some information came from internal LDS sources such as the old temple record books (separate ledgers of LDS baptisms, endowments and sealings, arranged chronologically).
Hope this helps
Cheers
Guy
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Lots of us on here are doing the free FutureLearn genealogy course which starts in March, does that mean that after we've completed it we can all claim to be "Trained Historians"?
Well I'll have to bow to your superior knowledge if we ever disagree over something ;D
So far as groom is concerned ... I already do :D
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Thank you Guy for your explanation.
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Yes, that seemed to me to be a very good clear explanation. I asked a member of that Church, many years back, when I first started, what the reasoning behind it all was, and the idea was, basically, to "save" their families. Somewhat more complicated than that, but that was the first outline given me.
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It is annoying when you have done research for years and have many documents to prove it all, and still get told "you are wrong and I am right" by a distant relative. Same for those who stick to common belief when common belief is rendered mute. Best not to take notice of blinkered people.