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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Ley on Monday 18 January 16 12:26 GMT (UK)
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I'm trying to locate a publication called "Soldiers Died in the Great War, 1914-19: The King's (Liverpool Regiment) Pt. 13". I know Matthew was killed on 31 July 1917 but would like to see if I can find any other information eg the battle he was fighting in, was he wounded? Currently he is not listed on the memorial in Liverpool and I'm trying to gather as much information as I can. I believe his records were probably amongst those destroyed.
Lesley
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http://www.cwgc.org/
Rifleman Mathew Baker
Service No: 241645
Date of Death: 31/07/1917
Regiment: 1st/6th Btn The King's (Liverpool Regiment)
Ypres Menin Gate Memorial
Panel 4 and 6.
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31July was the first day of the Battle of Pilkem Ridge. The 1st/6th KLR was part of 55th Division which had over 30% casualties in the three day offensive. It was part of 'Third Ypres'. As there is no grave his body was not recovered.
Rev Coop wrote a history of the Division available from c£70 for original hardback to c£12 for 2009 softback reprint. The war diary should also be available for download from the National Archives for £3.30 in series WO95.
The Territorials were given six digit numbers in March 1917 with the 6th KLR's block starting 240001. So he was the 1645th longest serving man in the 6th KLR then. It is likely he was a conscript. If you have Ancestry you could (with patience) find the records of a man with a nearby number to discover when he was conscripted.
Ken
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He also had a previous no. 3836 which indicates he was either a Territorial or on reserve.
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The only additional info in Soldiers Died is that he is listed as Killed in Action (ie killed in action on the day listed rather than died of wounds at later date)
It also gives birth place, residence and enlistment all as Liverpool.. although how accurate that is is hard to tell.
Milly
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Thank you everyone for the information.
Lesley
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You can download a copy of the War Diary for the battalion at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354885. Cost £3.30. It won't name him but you may get a flavour of what his war was like.
maxD
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Will do just that. Thanks again
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Hold fire I'm looking at the diary now.
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1/6th. position 30/7/1917
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I'm going to show you 2 maps.
The 1st. is a German map showing the trenches the 1/6th. were tasked with taking.
The 2nd. is the British positions 30/7/1917 & the Oxford trench position based on a present day map.
30/7/1917 the !/6th. moved from Potyze into their trench positions. Oxford trench dugouts were made the Batt. HQ.Casualties 6OR's killed & 9 wouded including 1 gassed. This was due to heavy German shelling.
A & D Coys. to capture German support line & as moppers up of German front line.
B & C Coys. to capture German reserve line consolidate on the Bde's. final objective ( blue line ).
Transcript:
31/7/1917 3rd. battle of Ypres commenced. Zero hour 3.50 am, when the attack commenced. The Batt. attacked in 4 waves as above. The German front & support trenches were carried with little trouble. Some sniper opposition being encountered. This however caused no delay & platoons from B & C Coys. pushed on to the Blue line & immediately commenced to dig in with strong points being dug out on the left flank & one in front of Jasper farm between Jasper farm & the Blue line. The Blue line runs approximately from (map ref.) this being the Batt. frontage. At 5. 05 am. the 9th. KLR passed through the Blue line to attack the Stutzpunkt line & Pommeron Redoubt. This was successfully accomplished & at 10.10 am. the 164th. Bde. started from the Black line ( Stutzpunkt ) to attack the Green line ( Gheluvelt-Langemark line ). This was also reached but the attacking troops had to fall back to a position about 200yds. in front of the Black line. At about 10am. the Batt. HQ moved from Oxford trench & established HQ in German reserve line at a point ( map ref. ) & shortly after arrival b & C Coys. were moved up to reinforce the 9th. Batt. KLR at the Black line. These 2 companies digging in & consolidating on the left flank to join up with the 1/10th. Batt. KLR on their left. A & C Coys. were simultaneously moved up to garrison the Blue line & strong points. These dispositions remained the same until relief. Throughout the day shelling on both sided was intense. The estimate of prisoners captured by the Batt. is approximately 100 while 80 enemy dead were counted on the Blue line. Amongst trophies taken by the Batt. were 2 trench mortars & 2 machine guns.
Caualties:
Officers:
3 killed
2 missing
3 wounded
Other Ranks:
29 killed
145 wounded
40 missing
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I can't thank you enough for all the information you've given me. This is fantastic. Can't wait to share this with the rest of my family. I hadn't realised that all this was available. I visited Ypres last year but wish I had know this then.
Thanks again
Lesley
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I don't want to blind you with maps but I've managed to find the map ie. the one used by the Batt. CO.
Using the map refs. from the diary I have been able to pinpoint the Battalions progress.
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Jim1
I have no connection but have watched on with awe, my contribution a poor effort compared. Brilliant.
maxD
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Thank Max
All contributions are valuable you know that.
today.
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The Deveraux Database for The Liverpool Kings Regt Display Section on the first floor on The Museum of Liverpool Life, may show a photo or more of his service life, but you have to personally enter a search on the touch screen computer there to see the information, no photos allowed per copyright.
This external link however, shows that he is listed on it under Mathew with one T - Baker
same Rgt No.
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/visit/galleries/soldiers/research/kingsreg/index.aspx
Liverpool Central Library on the Third floor Archive Dept has 3 volumes in Reference Section, on the History of the Liverpool Kings Regt actions
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Liverpool John Moores University set up a site in 2014 for relatives to submit stories and photos of their relatives. :- www.merseyside-at-war.org They are all worth a read and viewing of photos. (Have mine under Samuel Chapman and Abraham Kirkham )
The Diary of Fred Paterson covers 28th July 1917 at the front waiting for the German Shells to cease before their assault over the top on 1st August 1917 perhaps was killed by shell shrapnel on 31st July 1917 before the assault.
http://www.merseyside-at-war.org/memorabilia/diary-of-lance-corporal-fred-paterson/
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Have found Mathew Baker entry in Vol 3 of Kings History re 31st July action etc send me your email via PM for me to forward info.
Alan
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I am overwhelmed with all the help people have given me in response to my enquiry. I'll be visiting later in the year from Oz and will definitely be visiting all the places mentioned.
Many thanks again
Lesley
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You may ( or not ) want to visit these Cemeteries:
Potijze Burial Ground Cemetery.
Potijze Chateau Cemetery.
Potijze Chateau Lawn Cemetery.
Potijze Chateau Wood Cemetery.
There are a number of KLR who fell on & around 31/7/1917 in these.
He may be interred in one of the " Known unto God " graves.
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I managed to get to the Wieltje area last Saturday but the weather was that bad we couldn't even get out of the car. In fact we almost got stuck in the mud in the lane.
So I'm afraid we had to mount a tactical retreat to the Anzac pub where we spent a pleasant couple of hours before withdrawing to Ypres defeated.
However there is a map correction. The "black line" on the last map I gave is in the wrong location.
Based on the 9th's. diary it's here.
The lines did extend in both directions but I've just indicated the part of them of interest.
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The Deveraux Database for The Liverpool Kings Regt Display Section on the first floor on The Museum of Liverpool Life, may show a photo or more of his service life, but you have to personally enter a search on the touch screen computer there to see the information, no photos allowed per copyright.
This external link however, shows that he is listed on it under Mathew with one T - Baker
same Rgt No.
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/visit/galleries/soldiers/research/kingsreg/index.aspx
Liverpool Central Library on the Third floor Archive Dept has 3 volumes in Reference Section, on the History of the Liverpool Kings Regt actions
I was in this museum just last week and didn't see this Deveraux database. :'(
I have gone to that link you provided but it doesn't show my name of interest, does that mean not all soldiers of the KLR are on there?
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Thanks again for all the information. I will search in Liverpool when I'm over there later in the year. Pity about the weather when you were there Jim. Makes you wonder what it was like when they fought there all those years ago!
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Oddly enough, the 1/6th King's are the subject of my next 'battalion biography' and I will be spending much of the next two months in various archives. I'll be going through all the original combat reports from July 1917 in Jeudwine's papers and once I've found his platoon from the 'Casualty Book' (nothing to do with casualties actually, it's a record of who's in which platoon) I'll drop you a PM and I can e-mail the relevant report to you.
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Hi
I wanted to write to let you know that my great uncle Matthew Baker's name was finally added to the role of honour at Liverpool Town Hall.
Thank you to everyone to messaged me and gave me all the information I needed to ensure the sacrifice he made for his country was acknowledged finally.
Lesley
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Great news, Lesley
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The Deveraux Database for The Liverpool Kings Regt Display Section on the first floor on The Museum of Liverpool Life, may show a photo or more of his service life, but you have to personally enter a search on the touch screen computer there to see the information, no photos allowed per copyright.
This external link however, shows that he is listed on it under Mathew with one T - Baker
same Rgt No
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/visit/galleries/soldiers/research/kingsreg/index.aspx
Liverpool Central Library on the Third floor Archive Dept has 3 volumes in Reference Section, on the History of the Liverpool Kings Regt actions
I was in this museum just last week and didn't see this Deveraux database. :'(
I have gone to that link you provided but it doesn't show my name of interest, does that mean not all soldiers of the KLR are on there?
Hi Beeonthebay ' Just noticed your post re failure to find Database at the Museum of Liverpool Life it's the one at The Pier Head - not the one next to Liverpool Library in William Brown Street
The Kings Regt Display is on the First Floor Far right at the base of the Medals Tower is the Touch Screen Database.
I have noticed putting too much information in when searching for a soldier- usually fails to find them even though they all seem to be there.
Just searching for a surname only and going through all those of that surname usually finds them better.
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Great news Lesley. A proud day.
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Hi
I wanted to write to let you know that my great uncle Matthew Baker's name was finally added to the role of honour at Liverpool Town Hall.
Thank you to everyone to messaged me and gave me all the information I needed to ensure the sacrifice he made for his country was acknowledged finally.
Lesley
Hi Lesley, Great news, well done.
Be sure to add his details to the Kings Devereaux Database - send me PM if you want Email address of the Administrator .
Also be sure to add your relatives details onto the John Moores University Website
"Merseyside-at-war"
Here is Link :- http://www.merseyside-at-war.org/
I have added my Granddad Samuel Chapman MM
and just recently discovered his Sister's Husband Robert Henry Palmer MM
who was killed after only eleven weeks marriage to my Auntie Edith.
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The Diary of Fred Paterson covers 28th July 1917 at the front waiting for the German Shells to cease before their assault over the top on 1st August 1917 perhaps was killed by shell shrapnel on 31st July 1917 before the assault.
Alamo
I find this statement rather confusing,please correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation of this comment, but the battle for Pilckem ridge (The first assault ?) took place on 31st July 1917 and kicked off at 03:50 A.M, I thought that all the 'Kingsmen'Btns as part of the 55th were in it from the git go, or certainly by 07:30.
I lost (without trace) a number of relatives from the 1/9th KLR on that day and am desperately trying my best to determine an accurate timeline of their movements so that I might retrace their steps one day soon. All help towards that achievement would be very much appreciated.
I am already aware of K.Lees very valuable contributions through his 9th KLR website Thanks.
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The 1/9th. left their trenches at 4.20 am. on the 31st. July 1917. but had been heavily shelled from just after the first assault at 3.50 am. by the 5th. & 6th.
Their objective was the black line shown on the previous map after the 5th. & 6th. had consolidated their positions in the enemy trenches.
timeline:
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Very many thanks Jim, Pretty much as I had perceived it from the War Diaries and E H G Roberts accounts of the event.Your Diagram makes it a lot clearer and well defined. Much appreciated. :)