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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Northumberland => England => Northumberland Lookup Requests => Topic started by: WRAG on Sunday 17 January 16 04:38 GMT (UK)
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Is there anyone with access to the parish registers for All Saints who could check a burial for me?
According to the National Burial Index Joseph Henzil was buried at All Saints on 19 Nov 1728.
This date fits with his will (Joseph Henzell of the Bill House signed his will on 12 April 1727 & it was proved on 18 November 1730). However, other evidence suggest he was still alive in 1729. In that year he (or a completely different Joseph Henzell of Bill House) was a partner in the deed establishing the Newcastle Company of Broad and Crown Glass Owners.
Could some kind soul check the Burial Register and confirm whether the burial happened in 1728 or 1729?
Thank you
William Good
Sydney, Australia
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The Bishops transcripts for All Saints 1729 ,
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Prior to the change of the calendar in 1752
http://www.adsb.co.uk/date_and_time/calendar_reform_1752/
the new year use to start on 25 March, so 24 March 1728 would be followed by 25 March 1729. As a consequence many years move a year when people "correct" them but do not say so.
As far as I can see the records are not online. I could look when I go to the library but that may not be for a while.
Out of interest where is it that the alternative date of 1729 is given ?
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The Bishops transcripts for All Saints 1729 ,
The Bishops Transcripts available online don't appear to start until 1762 :-\
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My transcript has the year changing between 23 Mar 1727 and 25 Mar being 1728 [the 25th being the next entry after 23rd] The entry for Joseph Henzil was 19 Nov 1728 and he was a glasier.
Janis
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Thank you David & Janis
The date that made me wonder about the burial date comes from the 1729 deed establishing The Newcastle Company of Broad and Crown Glass Owners as quoted in "The Development of the Glass Industry on the Rivers Tyne and Wear, 1700 - 1900." by Catherine Ross (Doctoral thesis 1982). Joseph Henzell of Bill House, glassmaker, owned 4 shares in the Company. I cannot identify any other Joseph Henzell of Bill House. Joseph did have a son of that name, but he would have been only 14.
The baptisms of Joseph's children occurred at All Saints (1708) Eglingham (1711 - 1715) and Long Benton (1716) so it is quite possible that Joseph of Bill House was buried at Eglingham or Long Benton and that the 1728 burial at All Saints is that of a different Joseph Henzell.
Thank you again
William
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Thank you David & Janis
The date that made me wonder about the burial date comes from the 1729 deed establishing The Newcastle Company of Broad and Crown Glass Owners as quoted in "The Development of the Glass Industry on the Rivers Tyne and Wear, 1700 - 1900." by Catherine Ross (Doctoral thesis 1982). Joseph Henzell of Bill House, glassmaker, owned 4 shares in the Company. I cannot identify any other Joseph Henzell of Bill House. Joseph did have a son of that name, but he would have been only 14.
The baptisms of Joseph's children occurred at All Saints (1708) Eglingham (1711 - 1715) and Long Benton (1716) so it is quite possible that Joseph of Bill House was buried at Eglingham or Long Benton and that the 1728 burial at All Saints is that of a different Joseph Henzell.
I think the answer to that is possibly that as Joseph's will had not yet been proved (not done until 18 Nov 1730) then at this point the shares were still his even though he was dead. Someone with a bit more legal understanding may be able to help with that point a bit more
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Further to my previous comment. I have just found that the signature of Joseph on his will from 1727 is an older and shaky version of the signature from his Marriage Allegation of 1707, which matches exactly the signature from the administration of the estate of his father, Peregrine, in 1712.
Joseph, son of Peregrine, was mentioned in his uncle Cuthbert Chesman's will, dated 11 July, 1729, which means that the burial of 1728 cannot be that of Joseph of the Bill House.
William
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Joseph, son of Peregrine, was mentioned in his uncle Cuthbert Chesman's will, dated 11 July, 1729, which means that the burial of 1728 cannot be that of Joseph of the Bill House.
I had wondered how you knew that death was yours, (and now it seems it is not)
The reason I wondered is that there are two (?) baptisms of a Joseph Henzell in Newcastle on 3 February 1728 or 1729. As there is another baptism on 17 Aug 1730 I would suggest the 1728 one dies and that is who was buried in Newcastle in Nov 1728 (although for a child they usually state it is a child) - Edit I see the 1728 and 1730 Joseph's have different fathers
However the fact that Joseph was mentioned in a will on 11 July 1729 does not preclude him already being dead. You need to know when the will was drawn up, and whether there is any mention to him being dead in the 1729 will
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I had thought the death might be the one I was looking for as it fitted nicely between will date and probate. While suggestive that is not proof that it is the same man as the name Joseph is, as you have noticed, quite common.
The will that mentions Joseph and his son John was that of Cuthbert Chesman of Longhautonm gent. It was signed on 11 July 1729 and proved 14 October 1729. (DPR/I/1/1729/C6)
There are two relevant bequests in the will.
First: "unto my nephews Joseph Henzell Pergrin Henzell & John More five shillings a peice"
Second: regarding the descent of a family estate, which, after the death of the testator's brother, was to pass to "John Henzell eldest son of my nephew Joseph Henzell."
I think this means that this Joseph was alive in July 1729.
I have foud four Josephs who could have been buried in 1728. One (Joseph of the Bill House) had married Isabel Davison at All Saints in 1707 and died between 1727 and 1730. Another married Margaret Henzell at All Saints in January 1712/13. A third married Sarah Hall at Bedlington in 1718. As Margaret, wife of the second Joseph, had died in 1715 the third Joseph could be the same person as the second Joseph. There was also a fourth Joseph who had children baptised from 1690 to 1712, with all from 1702 on being baptised at All Saints.
William
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Yes it gets complicated when there are several Joseph's around.
I don't know what wills you have looked at but one site that may help you if you are not aware of it it the north east inheritance database
http://familyrecords.dur.ac.uk/nei/data/download.php (full list by alphabetical index)
http://familyrecords.dur.ac.uk/nei/data/simple.php (search for a name and get a link)
it lists the pre 1858 wills it has and then gives a link to familysearch where you can see and read the will (and other documents). eg Joseph Henzell 1730 has three links
will, 12 April 1727 (DPR/I/1/1730/H15/1-2)
registered copy of will, 12 April 1727 (DPR/I/2/13 p274)
will bond, penal sum £300, 18 November 1730 (DPR/I/3/1730/B330/1-2)
Worth a try if you have not seen it before
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Thank you David. That is the site that got me working on the Henzells/Henzeys, Tytterys & Tyzacks again.
William
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I am wondering about Cuthbert's will - why would he leave the family estate to his nephew's oldest son if his nephew was still alive to inherit?
I will be at Northumberland archives on Wednesday if there is anything you want to confirm though there is very little detail in burials at that time.
Christine
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Thanks for the offer Christine. If I knew what parish Bill House was in I would take up your offer.
I think Cuthbert bypassed Joseph because Joseph's health was bad. Joseph had written his will two years earlier and died soon after Cuthbert. Perhaps Cuthbert assumed his brother would outlive Joseph so he looked beyond his nephew to his grand nephew as the inheritor of the property.
William