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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: NZKate on Tuesday 12 January 16 04:37 GMT (UK)
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I am a direct descendant of John and Edith Burden who emigrated to Tasmania in 1854. My great grandfather is Walter Sydney Burde(o)n one of John and Edith's sons. I would like to find out more about the children of Alfred and Elizabeth Burden - Alfred was one of Reuben's sons-Reuben was another of John and Edith's sons. Alfred - 1873-1921 married Elizabeth (Lydia) Gillie in 1901.
I am interested in finding out any information about their children-Florence May; Sidney?: David Ellis; Robert Osborne; Phyllis Lucy; Effie Edith; Sydney Clyde; Herbert Henry; Arthur Alfred and Clarence Leslie. Lydia died in 1915 aged 33 and Alfred aged 48. I understand some of the children were "Taken into Care" I have a few scraps of information some conflicting, but I will be very grateful if anyone can help. I believe one of the girls married into the Rooney family and the other Effie Edith - into the Browne family. If I can help anyone else, please let me know as I have completed and published family trees for Burden/Livingstone/Unsworth and McAuliffe/McGrail. Thanks
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Can you tell us when and where each of these children were born, and what you already know about them?
Added - I cant see a marriage for Alfred Burden/Elizabeth or Lydia Gillie in 1901 in the England and Wales Index, so presumably this family was from somewhere else ?
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Thanks for your reply. The family was second and third generation living in Tasmania and all the children were born there. I have only three birth dates and I had included the marriage date in my original post and as I said I think most of the children were taken into care. It is the children I am interested in.
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Hi there,
I am confused by your request. I explain : You write that you have completed and published your family trees and you include the BURDEN tree in your list. So, I am wondering why you are now asking about the children of the 1901 BURDEN marriage .....
Anyways, you mention you have three birthdates and you name ten children. Perhaps you could advise us as to what information you are seeking about each of those ten.
Have you used the National Archives of Australia's website to look for any of the Burden siblings, particularly if they served during WWII, or were in the Militia http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/search/index.aspx
Can you confirm that none of the siblings are still living? I have living relatives aged more than 100 years, all alert and very protective of their personal privacy, and none like seeing their names published as they know they have the legal expectation that their names are private.
Have you used Trove? http://trove.nla.gov.au/
Have you checked through all the resources of RChat's various Resource boards here:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/australia-resources-offers/
Cheers, JM
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Thanks for your reply. The family was second and third generation living in Tasmania and all the children were born there. I have only three birth dates and I had included the marriage date in my original post and as I said I think most of the children were taken into care. It is the children I am interested in.
My apologies - I misread your post, and took it that the branch you were interested in had not emigrated with the rest.
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/25947005 27 Nov 1942 Mercury (Hobart)
BURDEN.-On November 26, 1942, at his brother's residence, Post Office, Stormlea, Arthur Alfred, eldest son of the late Alfred and Elizabeth Burden, aged 37 years.
From that information I am assuming that the list of children you have given are not in chronological order.
Alfred BURDEN's 1921 will is digitised and available online at the free to search website : here's the live link https://stors.tas.gov.au/AD960-1-47-14168
So now I am further confused. Alfred names as beneficiaries 'my two sons Arthur Alfred and Clarence Leslie" .... no mention of other siblings for these two.....
ADD Nubeena White Beach Cemetery : Clarence Lesley BURDEN died 2 March 1969, but I cannot tell if he was brother of Arthur Alfred as the Index I am looking at (Genealogical Society of Tasmania TAMIOT 1999 2nd Edition) has parents as Frederick and Lydia BURDEN ..... Elizabeth BURDEN is at same cemetery, DD 3 June 1915, spouse of Alfred. Many others with that surname also on that Index, some at that cemetery.
Cheers, JM
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Alfred was witness at his brother's 1899 marriage
https://stors.tas.gov.au/RGD37-1-62p437j2k
Cheers, JM
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Thanks for your help. I am sorry you are confused. Your assumptions were incorrect. Maybe you should include a little logic in your thinking. I did say I had only three birth dates. Thirteen generations were I thought, sufficient to include in a family tree without including the off spring of a half first cousin twice removed! Once again thanks for your time and for the information you have included. You have made me feel like a beginner.
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Hi there,
You comment about including a little logic in my thinking. I mention that I did write:
I am confused by your request. I explain : You write that you have completed and published your family trees and you include the BURDEN tree in your list. So, I am wondering why you are now asking about the children of the 1901 BURDEN marriage .....
Anyways, .....
So may I gently mention that to me it is quite logical to ask the ‘why’ question as you wrote ‘completed and published’ If a family tree is completed then surely you have finished/concluded/finalised/done that family tree.
I am sorry you think that I have made you feel like a beginner. You have been a member of this forum for years, and you are a published family historian. There is no reason to consider yourself as a beginner, and clearly there’s no intention on my part to cause you to feel that way.
Re several of Alfred & Elizabeth (Lydia)’s children who perhaps were taken into care.
I do not know the restrictions to access that may apply to records held in Tasmania, but I do know that in some of the Australian States the restrictions to access children’s records are strict. In Australia, when a child is taken into care, then the State or Territory has the ‘duty of care’, so if the children were taken into care in Tasmania, then perhaps that is the best place to start your search. Currently the government department is their Department of Health and Human Services. http://www.dhhs.tas.gov.au/home Perhaps you could consider contacting them re their archives and any restricted access conditions http://www.dhhs.tas.gov.au/contact
Please can you answer the question about each of those ten children you named :
Can you confirm that none of the siblings are still living? I have living relatives aged more than 100 years, all alert and very protective of their personal privacy, and none like seeing their names published as they know they have the legal expectation that their names are private.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=368728.0
If you are providing details of someone we are likely to suspect may still be living, but you know is deceased, please state this.
Cheers, JM
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Hi NZKate
These documents would be useful - http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/default.aspx?detail=1&type=I&id=SWD1/1/712
Interestingly, S's WWII enlistment shows his next of kin as a Jack BURDEN.
P.S. S was born in 1914 if NAA is accurate - so was he the youngest (since Lydia died in 1915)?
P.P.S. Going by electoral rolls, it was Phyllis who married ROONEY. As majm states it would be wise to confirm these people are deceased.
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http://www.justice.tas.gov.au/bdm/family_history
Do we have confirmation that the lad born 1914 is no longer living?
Do we have confirmation that his parents were Alfred and Elizabeth (Lydia) ?
If I may, I do have similar questions for the other children identified in the opening post.
Cheers, JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/9577832 18 Jan 1902 The Mercury
BURDEN-GILLIE. - On December 26, 1901, by the Rev. Isaac H. Palfreyman, Alfred Burden, son of Reuben and Mary Burden, of Kellevie, to Lydia Gillie, daughter of William and Jane Gillie, of Kellevie, by license, at the residence of the officiating minister.
(found this while looking for death details for any those ten children)
Cheers, JM
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Effie Edith BROWNE
http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/archivenotice/2963643/view?random=1452648737202
Phyllis Lucy ROONEY
http://www.launceston.tas.gov.au/lcc/?c=30&burial_record=55352
Debra :)
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ADD Nubeena White Beach Cemetery : Clarence Lesley BURDEN died 2 March 1969, but I cannot tell if he was brother of Arthur Alfred as the Index I am looking at (Genealogical Society of Tasmania TAMIOT 1999 2nd Edition) has parents as Frederick and Lydia BURDEN
Cheers, JM
I would guess that the father was known to be 'Fred' and whoever organised the headstone thought it was Frederick rather than Alfred.
Debra :)
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Yes, quite possible Dundee,
I found the newspaper cutting re the 1901 marriage hours after finding the Cemetery details for Clarence. I think our OP may need some certificates, or at least an inspection of the record Mollipops found. If Effie was one of the children of Alfred and Lydia, then she reached a good age, so it is possible that some of the others may be living.
Hi NZKate
These documents would be useful - http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/default.aspx?detail=1&type=I&id=SWD1/1/712
Interestingly, Sydney's WWII enlistment shows his next of kin as a Jack BURDEN.
P.S. Sydney was born in 1914 if NAA is accurate - so was he the youngest (since Lydia died in 1915)?
P.P.S. Going by electoral rolls, it was Phyllis who married ROONEY. As majm states it would be wise to confirm these people are deceased.
Cheers, JM (edit to make better sense of my words)
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Wife of Sydney Clyde at White Beach:
http://www.ozgenonline.com/~riacaroline/White%20Beach/BURDEN,%20Annie%20Gertrude%20%28wb%29.jpg
He is probably somewhere nearby
http://www.tasman.tas.gov.au/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=111&Itemid=584
This young man is the right age for David Ellis BURDEN and would explain why he doesn't appear on any later records:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/153713973
Debra :)
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Wow! So pleased to see all the items here especially those from mollipops1 and Dundee -you have all certainly added to my woeful collection of just three birth dates. I was in Tasmania two years ago and found quite a few graves and former land owned by the Burden family. At that time I was not aware of this family but have since been told by another family member who lives near Hobart, that their story was rather tragic, hence my growing interest. After looking at the information on the Hobart Archives Office website, it appears I may have to go back and view any records on site. It's a long and rather expensive way to go, but it may be worthwhile. It certainly helps to know where to look for records and even though I have previously been involved in a huge amount of research, it was a few years ago and since then we have had quite a lot to deal with in our own lives. Your help is encouraging me to continue finding out more about this family. Thank you.
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Can you please confirm that you know that all ten children are no longer living. It is a no no to name living people at RChat.
Cheers, JM
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majm ......how many times do I have to write that the ONLY information I have is three of the children's birth years. As far as I know the mother died in 1915 so the oldest child could possibly be 101 years old.
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majm ......how many times do I have to write that the ONLY information I have is three of the children's birth years. As far as I know the mother died in 1915 so the oldest child could possibly be 101 years old.
So please modify your opening post and remove the names of the children that you cannot confirm are no longer living.
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Tasmania's BDM does NOT have online indexes, so it is NOT possible to look up online birth registrations to determine when the children were born, or if their parent/s were Alfred and Lydia.
Cheers, JM R2M 1530 AEDST
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...... I would like to find out more about the children of Alfred and Elizabeth Burden........
....... I am interested in finding out any information about their children....... but I will be very grateful if anyone can help...... Thanks
http://eheritage.statelibrary.tas.gov.au/resources/detaile2dd.html?ID=HBFH_30461
Florence May nee BURDEN died 1967. She was the widow of Peter Campbell and his second wife. He was the father of nine children.
Obituary Peter CAMPBELL
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/26406727
MI link
http://www.ozgenonline.com/~riacaroline/Koonya/Campbell,%20Peter%20(koo).txt
In Loving Memory of
Peter loved husband of Florence M CAMPBELL
Died 12TH May 1947. Aged 84 years
AT REST.
Sue
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Effie Edith BROWNE
http://tributes.heraldsun.com.au/archivenotice/2963643/view?random=1452648737202
Debra :)
Effie Edith BURDEN was enrolled to vote in WA from 1931 to 1937 .
She married there in 1939
Burden Effie E
Browne Herbert T G
Reg 5 1939 At Canning
WW2 summary Herbert Thomas Geo BROWNE who enlisted 1942
http://www.ww2roll.gov.au/Veteran.aspx?serviceId=A&veteranId=1224521
The couple were on Victorian Electoral Rolls from 1954 to 1980.
Herbert died in 1987 and Effie as given above.
Both were cremated at Springvale.
Effie seems to have been born in 1901
Sue
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Sparrett - thank you for that information. I was so excited to see Florence May as I've not been able to find much for her BUT this one is her aunty, a daughter of Reuben and sister to her father Alfred. The Florence I am looking for was born maybe 1901-3 and was referred to as May Florence as well. Thanks again.
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http://www.linc.tas.gov.au/get-help/Pages/help-finding.aspx
Perhaps you could consider asking about
These documents would be useful - http://search.archives.tas.gov.au/default.aspx?detail=1&type=I&id=SWD1/1/712
(start date 2 Feb 1916 and end date 17 August 1934)
Cheers, JM
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Agreed, the children's papers would be very informative. Unfortunately this would require a visit to Hobart in person!
I note there was a Frederick BURDEN with wife 'Lizzie' in Nubeena - he died in 1921 aged 48. Any connection?
It seems curious to me why all but two of the children were taken into care after the death of their mother in 1915. Effie who by all accounts would have been 14 or 15, and David born c1904 (if the shooting accident at age 18 was him) are on that records list. But Arthur & Clarence, the two who seem to remain with their father, weren't the youngest (Arthur was born c1905).
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I am amazed that with the number of adult relatives in that district that the children were not raised within that extended family. To me, it is a sticking point for joining the dots to put those children as the children of Alfred (Frederick) and Elizabeth (Lizzie/Lydia). Hopefully there will be birth certificates or similar official documents to give their personal details in those files.
Frederick's death notices read as though Elizabeth is still alive at the time. I think it is unusual not to include "the late Elizabeth" or "the late Lizzie" especially as he signed off as Alfred in his 1916 In Memoriam to her.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/23500157
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/23469837
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/1053285
Cheers, JM
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http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/
Pitiful conditions of father Fred Burden in 1915 at the time of the death of his wife Lizzie.His nine
children and him very unwell.
Sue
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They are the same couple. Elizabeth was called Lydia and Alfred, 'Fred.' I see no cause for amazement at other extended family not including the children in their own families. Circumstances were difficult -several of Reuben's children died young, others never married and some lost husbands or wives at a young age leaving a single parent to raise the children. They were mainly farmers so money was not readily available most of the time. I said earlier that I may have to go back to Hobart to see the records - this may not be possible for a year or two.
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Thanks, Sue. I had seen the extract and should have added that to my previous post. There were two articles in The Mercury dated June 4 and June 23 1915- Nubeena - from a Douglas Free who I took to be a minister. He collected donations and support from local people for the children. The whole situation seemed very desperate.
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GILLIE birth - Mother Elizabeth GILLIE, Father: NOT REQUIRED
Florence May GILLIE b. 25/06/1901 QUEENSTOWN #1901/4641
BURDEN births - Parents: Alfred BURDEN & Lydia GILLIE
Arthur Alfred b. 04/12/1903 TASMAN PENINSULA #1904/4499
David Ellis b. 09/05/1905 NUBEENA #1905/4463
Clarence Leslie b. 26/01/1907 NUBEENA #1907/3267
Robert Osbourne b. 04/08/1908 NUBEENA #1908/4752
Effie Edith b. 07/11/1909 Collins St HOBART #1909/1196
Phillis Lucy b. 11/05/1911 NUBEENA #1911/3511
Hubert Henry b. 21/09/1912 TUNNEL BAY #1912/5866
Sydney Clyde b. 07/11/1914 NUBEENA #1914/4653
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Agh, dots joined now. Thanks Merlin.
Both my parents and their siblings were born in the years from late 1890s to just after WWI ended. One of my parents - one of 17 children, my other parent - one of 15 children. I do know of the depreviations for families in those early days after federation. One of my ancestors who is alive and alert and who reads my posts here at RChat was born in rural NSW in 1910. Several of his Uncles/Aunts were even poorer, and died impoverished in their 30s. Their children were kept in the family, and I am assured this was the way many families worked in that rural NSW locality.
Cheers, JM
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majm...I am finding your attitude towards me rather imperious and unnecessary. Obviously you should not measure other people's families' longevity, numbers of off spring, care and involvement, against your own. Your ancestors sound remarkable in their survival and continuance. All I have asked for is a little help and did not expect or appreciate a lecture with each of your responses. You don't even know me. If I upset you in any way, just ignore me as I will you. Thank you for your help - I must admit that I already had much of what you put up, but I thank you for your time. If you try and get me 'banished' from the website, so be it. I have already thanked the other members for their time, wonderfully helpful results and willingness to help a stranger.
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majm...I am finding your attitude towards me rather imperious and unnecessary. Obviously you should not measure other people's families' longevity, numbers of off spring, care and involvement, against your own. Your ancestors sound remarkable in their survival and continuance. All I have asked for is a little help and did not expect or appreciate a lecture with each of your responses. You don't even know me. If I upset you in any way, just ignore me as I will you. Thank you for your help - I must admit that I already had much of what you put up, but I thank you for your time. If you try and get me 'banished' from the website, so be it. I have already thanked the other members for their time, wonderfully helpful results and willingness to help a stranger.
I do not know of any reason why you would form those views.
I am astounded that you would come to a view about any RChatter to the effect that they would try and get anyone banished from this website.
I wish you well.
Cheers, JM
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It is inevitable on a large forum such as Rchat that many different personalities will take part .
With this diversity of person there will be many different styles of finding and presenting answers. Likewise, from time to time, various participants may perceive answers to be expressed in a style they do not like . This is the limitation of the written word isn’t it.
It is good to hear you have received assistance in your search , even if the replies contained information you already had.-- Perhaps a more detailed description of what you have and what is lacking in your records from the outset would help next time.
Sue
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Moderators comment: I am dismayed by the response towards a new member who posted this topic with a genuine desire to research family born 100 years ago, centenarians notwithstanding.
Please recall the posting guidelines and review messages before sending; Courtesy and good manners are never out of date.
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