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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Jaychris on Sunday 10 January 16 13:57 GMT (UK)
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I am searching for details of Christopher Welch (c1811, Ireland) who moved to Liverpool where he married Mary Ann Clement(s) aka Clementson/Clemitson.
Although Christopher and Mary Ann were married in the Anglican Church (C of E) in Liverpool, their children were all baptized as Roman Catholics.
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You've posted in How to Use RootsChat (it does say Please don't post requests here) instead of IRELAND board so a moderator will be moving this to the correct place.
What sort of details are you looking for? when did the Liverpool marriage take place? have you followed Christoper in all possible census records to see if a more exact place than Ireland is given?
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Hi Jaycris
I can move your post to either Ireland or Lancashire if you can let me know which ;)
Regards
Sarah
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Thank you for letting me know I had posted wrongly. I am happy for my query regarding Christopher Welch to be posted to Liverpool or Lancashire boards - but not Manchester.
Christopher Welsh and Mary Anne Clement were married in October 1930 at St Peter's, Liverpool. They are shown together in Liverpool in 1841.
I have no reason to believe he ever lived in Manchester - although I know there were three Christopher Welches around at the same time and one was in Manchester.
Nowhere can I find a district/town in Ireland mentioned for his birthplace and I have even looked for connections through two other Welch family members who were godparents to Christopher's children.
So - Liverpool or Lancashire it is, thanks.
Jaychris
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Hi,
When you look at the 1830 marriage it seems possible that Christopher's surname could be Walsh.
If this is so, it is possible Mary Ann died 18 Jan 1836 age 24 and Christopher re-married on 21 Feb 1841 to Margaret McDermot.
If these facts prove correct Christopher was born in Drogheda, Ireland and his father was Thomas Walsh (shown on the 1841 marriage).
Back later but in the meantime, perhaps a thought for you to consider?
Alan
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Ancestry have transcribed the 1830 marriage as Welsh, Lancs OPC have it as Walsh. I think it looks like Walsh. Back in 1830 if you were RC you got married in the C of E church because RC church marriages were just ceremonies with no legal status. Even after RC churches were allowed to have a registrar present at marriages many Catholics continued to marry in C of E churches because it was convenient for them.
I agree that it looks like Mary Ann was buried at St Mary's CE Cemetery on 18 Jan 1836, aged 24 years, of Eldon Street and Christopher married Margaret McDermot(t) formerly Loghlin (perhaps McLoughlin?) on 21 Feb 1841 at St Mary's RC in Edmond Street Liverpool (not yet moved to Highfield Street). They are on the 1841 Census at Brokers Alley in Stanley Street Liverpool.
The 1871 Census shows that Christopher was born in Drogheda:-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VBFZ-P4R
Blue
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are any of the witnesses family in any way ? married by banns
Marriage: 18 Oct 1830 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Christopher Walsh - (X), Iron Founder, This Parish
Mary Anne Clement - (X), Spinster, This Parish
Witness: Elizabeth Qualtrough, (X); John Grey
Married by Banns by: William Goddard Off. Curate
http://www.liverpoolhistoryprojects.co.uk/liverpoolrcmarriages/marriages.php
has the 1841 marriage to Margaret McDermot ( one t on that record ) if you click on Request Form - you can get a copy of that marriage fror £3 ....
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Original images of both these marriages are on Ancestry so I don't think the Liverpool History Projects transcript is needed. The 1830 marriage under Welsh, 1841 marriage under Walsh.
Blue
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Yes, the 1830 marriage does give Christopher's surname as Welsh.
Mary Ann (nee Clement) was not dead when some of you have quoted so I think some of you have found the other Christopher (Walsh/Welsh). There was another one around in Liverpool at the same time but I think he moved from there.
Mary Ann is very much alive and kicking in 1841 and 1851 where the family lived at Hurst Street, Liverpool.
By 1861 and 1871 the name Elizabeth is quoted as Head of Family. There seems to be an anomaly and I wondered whether the census-taker had written down wrong information because Elizabeth's age is more like her mother's, Mary Ann's and nothing like the daughter Elizabeth's age. I thought that, perhaps, the census-taker had not written Mary Ann's name down and had managed to give Elizabeth's name as head of family in error. Perhaps Elizabeth was there or not - I can not be sure whether she has died or married.
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I see them now. They're under the surname Welch in 1841 at Hurst Street Liverpool and Mary Ann is recorded as Mary. Looking at the RC baptism of the youngest child there, Mary, the mother's maiden name is recorded as Clement so the 1830 marriage is right but the other details we got wrong because we were looking at the wrong man. So here they are minus Christopher in 1851:-
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QKVX-9NXR
Do we know what happened to Christopher? I can't find a burial record for him. He only appears on the 1841 Census. Perhaps he returned to Ireland? I see what you mean about the 1861 and 1871 Census records it looks like Mary has become Elizabeth for some reason.
Blue
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the baptisms of Elizabeth &Mary from lan-opc
Baptism: 13 Aug 1837 St Patrick, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Welshe - Daughter of Christopher Welshe & Mary (formerly Clemison)
Born: 4 Aug 1837
Godparents: Richard Welshe; Elizabeth Burnes
Baptised by: G.Gibson
Register: Baptisms 1837, Page 35, Entry 4
Source: LDS Film 396375
Baptism: 8 Dec 1839 St Patrick, Toxteth, Lancashire, England
Mary Welsh - [Child] of Christopher Welsh & Mary (formerly Clement)
Born: 6 Dec 1839
Godparents: Hugh Higgins; Margaret Deamird
Baptised by: W.Parker
Register: Baptisms 1839 - 1840, Page 59, Entry 5
Source: LDS Film 396375
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Jaychris mentioned all the children being baptised RC so I think all the original baptism record images for the children of Christopher and Mary have been collected from Ancestry's Liverpool collection.
Blue
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I wondered if you had checked the death for a Christopher Welsh in June Qtr 1843 (Liverpool reference 20/218)?
It is at odds with the 1851 census for Mary Ann which shows her as "married" rather than widowed but is it worth exploring?
There is another Christopher Welsh death in 1858 (plus a Catholic burial about the same time for a Christophus Welsh from Wellington Road, age shown as 85) - can't see him on any censuses - however as Wellington Road is a distance from Hurst Street, I tend to think this one is likely not connected.
Alan
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Oops - silly mistake - just realised there are children born after 1843 so the 1843 death can't be your Christopher -sorry about that idea - just finding it frustrating not to be able to find the answer for you and starting to clutch at straws!!
Alan
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You say Christopher & Mary were RC. They married in the CofE church of St Peter. I wonder if they also married in an RC church, on either the same day or just before or after. I have in my tree someone who married at St Peters liverpool in 1864 and also in the RC church so that they complied with both civic & church law. I have a copy of both the certificates somewhere (they were printed in a family history mag) but I can't find them or remember which the RC church was.
Sometimes RC records give a little more info so it may be worth investigating.
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You say Christopher & Mary were RC. They married in the CofE church of St Peter. I wonder if they also married in an RC church, on either the same day or just before or after. I have in my tree someone who married at St Peters liverpool in 1864 and also in the RC church so that they complied with both civic & church law. I have a copy of both the certificates somewhere (they were printed in a family history mag) but I can't find them or remember which the RC church was.
Sometimes RC records give a little more info so it may be worth investigating.
Good suggestion. I can't see an RC marriage though on Ancestry.
Blue
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The records are probably not on line but may be held at Liverpool Records Office. Only marriage records on line for St Patrick's appear to be from 1872
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The records are probably not on line but may be held at Liverpool Records Office. Only marriage records on line for St Patrick's appear to be from 1872
Ancestry has the original marriage register images for 1830 for the following RC churches:-
-St Peter's Seel Street
-St Nicholas Copperas Hill
-St Patrick's Toxteth
They don't have marriage register images for 1830 for:-
St Mary's (then Edmund Street, later Highfield Street)
St Anthony's Scotland Road
The marriage registers from 1830 usually include names of witnesses but not parents' names so it may not be worthwhile pursuing this avenue of research.
Blue
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I just suggested it as I have sometimes seen extra information written at the side of some records.
How do you find what churches are on line at ancestry please?
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I just suggested it as I have sometimes seen extra information written at the side of some records.
How do you find what churches are on line at ancestry please?
This link is for the Liverpool RC marriage search page on Ancestry you can browse the records and see what years they have:-
http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=2182
Notes:-
St Mary's= St Mary's Edmund Street/Highfield Street Liverpool
St Mary= St Mary Woolton
St Peter's Priory= St Peter's Seel Street Liverpool
Blue
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got it. Thanks Blue
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Christopher and Mary Ann were married in St Peter’s C of E and my very first post on here made clear that they were married in the Anglican Church.
Christopher died on 29 July 1865 at 4 Hurst Street, Liverpool.
Mary Ann died on 4 December 1872 at 4 Hurst Street.
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Christopher and Mary Ann were married in St Peter’s C of E and my very first post on here made clear that they were married in the Anglican Church.
Christopher died on 29 July 1865 at 4 Hurst Street, Liverpool.
Mary Ann died on 4 December 1872 at 4 Hurst Street.
But I think (see page 2) we have also suggested that they may have been married again in an RC church. As far as I am aware as the children were baptised with the parents obviously considered married, the RC church would not have considered they had been married in the eyes of god without that second ceremony. The CofE marriage would have been to satisfy the legal requirements
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That suggestion about an RC marriage was for the wrong Christopher.
I can find no second marriage in the RC church for Christopher Welch and Mary Ann Clement. They may have had a RC blessing but we can never know as they are not recorded. Although their children were baptised in the RC church, the children’s marriages that I have found were all in the C of E. (My family is an excellent mix - we have Quakers and Methodists too.)
Christopher and Mary Ann were both interred at St James Churchyard, now gardens surrounding the Anglican Cathedral in Liverpool.
(For those who asked, the Lancashire Parishes Online site is excellent.)