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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: snowball on Saturday 02 January 16 00:33 GMT (UK)
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Hi - I'd be interested to hear views on this baptismal record from 1814 - it's from the Durham Bishop's Transcripts (St Hilda, South Shields) and features Elizabeth Williams, who I'm fairly confident is my 3x g-grandmother. But why is the mother missing? I'm inclined to think that it's down to incomplete record-keeping rather than a single-parent situation. I've included a couple of adjoining entries, for comparison.
I think the mother would be Cecilia Williams (nee March) who has been christening children with Joseph Williams, mariner, at the same church for the previous 14 years. There's a burial for a 39-year-old Cecilia Williams in May 1814 ie three months after Elizabeth's baptism.
Separate question: Elizabeth Calvert (nee Williams) married Thomas Snowball in 1843 (her father Joseph Williams, mariner). I can find her in 1851 census and later, but not in 1841, when she would have been a Calvert (she m George Calvert in Feb 1837). Can anyone spot her in 1841?
1851: HO107/2393/422
Hetton le Hole
Thomas Snowball 38 S Shields
Elizabeth Snowball 38 S Shields
George Calvert 14 b S Shields
Thomas Snowball 10 S Shields
Mary Snowball 7 S Shields
Joseph V Snowball 5 Easington Lane
William Snowball 11 months Easington Lane
Many thanks
Rob
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Odd that a mother would be absent, its usually the father in the case of illegitimacy or otherwise. Perhaps the mother did not want to be recorded, I am not sure, this is the first time I have seen such an occasion.
Sorry I couldn't be more help
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Do you have access to the transcripts, or do you just have that page? Are there any other entries with just a father? The reason I ask, BT's are notorious for lacking the same data as PR's. Bad record keeping as you say, and the onerous task for the minister or clerk to write out a second copy (sometimes in a hurry), are just two possible reasons the mother's name is missing. Have you checked the PR?
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https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NJWB-D2Z
and
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NLC1-GQB
both have Joseph as her father, but no mention of her mother. FHL film 1894143
Anything written (in pencil or otherwise) outside the margin? ..... in NSW Australia in that era, the Reverend sometimes recorded additional details in the white space in the margin to the left of the entry in the parish register.
Cheers, JM
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Maybe the vicar couldn't remember the name of Joseph's wife when he wrote the register entry, and never got round to updating it...
I've hardly ever seen entries since the early 1800s with just the father entered. Earlier records often neglected to mention the mother.
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I agree with Claire, mislaid the name, intended to complete the entry later, but forgot.
It is a clerical error, we are all human, even clerics.
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I've seen a number of registers where a space was left by the clerk to enter the mother's name and he obviously didn't get round to doing it in a number of cases. These were earlier than yours before preprinted forms were used. Where the mother was included, in may cases it was obviously later because the pen was different or ink darker or lighter and often the space left did not match the name - "Catherine" or "Elizabeth" squeezed in and "Ann" and "Mary" spread out to fit. I have wondered if the baby was baptised very soon after birth and taken to church by the father, and the mother was still recovering from childbirth and not able to attend.
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I have wondered if the baby was baptised very soon after birth and taken to church by the father, and the mother was still recovering from childbirth and not able to attend.
That's a good point, I hadn't thought of that.
Earlier records (1700s) sometimes say "John the son of John Smith and his wife", I got the impression the wife's name was of little importance! Even though by 1814 she was usually mentioned by name, maybe her name wasn't common knowledge to the vicar.
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Durham Records Online has the South Shields St Hilda baptisms for this year, and according to their Parish Records page http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/Parish_Record_Info.php their record is taken from the original rather than the BT's.
You could buy a few credits to see if a mother's name is mentioned on there - but a search of the index cross-referenced with the mother's name Cecilia gives a negative result.
If there's no mother's name on the original I'd tend to go along with what others have said assume that the omission was an administrative error.
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Hi Snowball
Baptisms, South Shields District - Record Number: 512244.0
Location: South Shields
Church: St. Hilda
Denomination: Anglican
16 Feb 1814 Elizabeth Williams of South Shields, daughter of Joseph Williams (mariner)
This taken from 'durhamrecordsonline' but there is no Mothers name.
leka
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Thanks all for such useful input!
I haven't seen the original PR yet but it would appear from your replies that it contains the same information. There are no other clues on the BTs page - and I can't find other examples of just the father being recorded among the records.
Yes, I think it might be something to do with the mother being too ill to attend the baptism. I can't tell if birth date and baptism were close to each other as only the latter is recorded.
This couple do appear to keep the clergy on their toes - they baptised their first child in Jarrow on the same day (in August 1799) as they wed down the road in South Shields!
Thanks again
Rob
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Yes, I think it might be something to do with the mother being too ill to attend the baptism. I can't tell if birth date and baptism were close to each other as only the latter is recorded.
Is this a likely explanation? Isn't the register a record of parentage, rather than of who attended the ceremony? My guess would be that the transcriber absent-mindedly moved on to the next 'field'- or possibly wasn't sure what he was copying?
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Not when the original documents fail to name the mother. Not a transcriber's omission, but rather the minister or clerk at the time. For whatever reason, the mother was not there, they didn't get her name at the time so couldn't fill in the register later, or something else.
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The image posted is from a transmitted record. I do think our OP should follow the advice given by JenB and seek out the original register.
There's several possibilities for that July 1814 baptism:
a) Elizabeth is an adult, and the clergy has only asked for her father's name as a way of registering her details in the parish register, anticipating that few people would need to consult the register
b) Elizabeth is a child aged seven or more (I stand corrected on 'age of seven' relying on grey cells), who has gone to the clergyman directly and asked to be baptised and the clergy have agreed that she understands this sacrament (one of only two sacraments in the C of E) and the clergy has only asked for her father's name as a way of registering her details in the parish register (as few needed to consult the register)
c) the scribe transferring the information into the Bishop's transcripts has not been able to decipher the name of the mother from the transmitted record sent through.
d) the scribe has not re-check, nor has the scribe had anyone re-check the transcripts sent through
e) the transcription sent through from the original register did not record mum's name due to an oversight
f) the transcription sent through from the original register did not record mum's name because mum's name was not known to the clergy
g) and h) and probably many others as well ......
So please consider getting to the original register :)
Durham Records Online has the South Shields St Hilda baptisms for this year, and according to their Parish Records page http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/Parish_Record_Info.php their record is taken from the original rather than the BT's.
You could buy a few credits to see if a mother's name is mentioned on there - but a search of the index cross-referenced with the mother's name Cecilia gives a negative result.
If there's no mother's name on the original I'd tend to go along with what others have said assume that the omission was an administrative error.
PS ADD
we need to remember that it was not until the 1960s or there abouts that baptisms and/or civil registrations commenced to record a surname for the person being 'registered'.... It is logical to assume that Elizabeth's surname was WILLIAMS, but the baptismal record does NOT actually NOTE that, particularly as her mum's name is not on it. Many of us overlook that a baby's surname comes from their mum's then surname, particularly in the 19th Century .... If mum is a married woman, then likely she would be using her husband's surname as her own.
ADD
....... This taken from 'durhamrecordsonline' but there is no Mothers name.
Cheers, JM (edit to sort out some grammar)
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OR, putting aside JM's excellent scenarios and thinking it is an infant:
Mother may have died in childbirth.
Plus, I've seen lots of early baptisms - even into the 1800s - where the child is described as son or daughter of (male person) and no mention of his wife as if she had nothing to do with it!
Dawn M
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I can find her in 1851 census and later, but not in 1841, when she would have been a Calvert (she m George Calvert in Feb 1837). Can anyone spot her in 1841?
When did George die & what was his occupation? If he was alive & a mariner, Elizabeth may be on her own. Had they had children before George died? Do you have her parents or George's parents in 1841?
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Thanks Josey.
Elizabeth Williams, spinster, m George Calvert, bachelor, in Tynemouth on Feb 11, 1837 - after banns. Witnesses were Mary Williams and James Calvert. I haven't got a birth for their apparent son, George Calvert, although he is listed as 14 in 1851 census.
There's a death for a George Calvert in September quarter 1839, South Shields. Elizabeth remarries (my line) in 1843.
So I haven't got a profession for George senior. And no parents on the 1841 I've seen.
Rob
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So please consider getting to the original register :)
The baptism entry kindly provided in reply #9 by leka (who will have had to use pre-paid credits to view it :) ) is from Durham Records Online, and is therefore taken from the original register.
Durham Records Online has the South Shields St Hilda baptisms for this year, and according to their Parish Records page http://www.durhamrecordsonline.com/Parish_Record_Info.php their record is taken from the original rather than the BT's.
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Probably George jnr's birth
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NHK-HPN
HO107; Piece: 299; Folio: 23; Page: 42
has a JANE Calvert 25, George Calvert 3 both born in county, in Church Street, Monkwearmouth. I can only see 1 George born around this time. EDIT forget that, 1861 RG 9; Piece: 3784; Folio: 34; Page: 1 this Jane & George aged 23 are with father William.
Where was Elizabeth living when she married in 1843?
I kn ow he is not your line but I thnk George died in 1906
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NYG-Z17.
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Probably George jnr's birth
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2NHK-HPN
Not too sure about that :-\ That birth might well tie up with this baptism http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gsb/ - in which case the parents names are William and Jane :-\
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I haven't got a birth for their apparent son, George Calvert, although he is listed as 14 in 1851 census.
The free index to Durham Records Online is showing the baptism of a George Calvert in 1837 in South Shields district, parents George and Elizabeth :)
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Yes, sorry JenB - I should have scored through that baptism when I did the census record :-[
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Possible baptism of George junior, Holy Trinity South Shields, 27 August 1837, parents George and Elizabeth. The record I've got doesn't state the father's occupation, but if you want you could get this from Durham Records Online (if you are willing to buy a few credits - it's pay per view ;D )
The Holy Trinity BT's don't start until 1840, so nothing to be gleaned for free there I'm afraid ::)
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OK - thanks for all assistance so far. Have purchased. George Calvert snr was a miner.
Location: South Shields
Church: Holy Trinity
Denomination: Anglican
27 Aug 1837 George Calvert of Temple Town, son of George (pitman) & Elizabeth Calvert
I will look at 1843 marriage address later - cert at home.
Rob
Rob
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There's a death for a George Calvert in September quarter 1839, South Shields.
That ties up with a burial which shows on the free index of Durham Records Online - 1839, South Shields District, George Calvert aged 28 abode Temple Town.
Another site shows the date of burial as 30th June 1839.
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Looks like George Calvert was killed in a major accident at St Hilda's Colliery South Shields.
There are lots of newspaper articles about it.
Also see here http://www.dmm.org.uk/individ0/i01152.htm . Scroll down for links to several other newspaper reports.
One newspaper article states he was married with one child.
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How interesting! Many thanks JenB. Sounds particularly grim - although I suppose if it hadn't happened I wouldn't be here!
Rob
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Looks like they were living in Templetown in late 1841 when Thomas Snowball was born
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01gse/ (some time before they were married)
Can't find Elizabeth and young George anywhere in the 1841 census though >:(
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That's a good spot. Thanks.
Thomas Snowball (widower) married Elizabeth Calvert(widow) at St Hilda, South Shields. He's a Pitman, father William Snowball, Blacksmith. Residence for both given as simply South Shields.
Feb 21, 1843.
Rob