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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: andarah1 on Wednesday 30 December 15 00:32 GMT (UK)
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I'm hoping someone can point me in a new direction. I have `May Dorothy Collins', born 17 Aug 1900 (according to her birth certificate). Her parents were listed as Lizzie Collins and Francis Yvon Eccles. She was born at Laurel Bank, Manor Road, Wallington.
Her marriage certificate lists Albert Collins as the father.
I found Francis Yvon Eccles living at that address in the voter registrations in 1899, 1900, 1901 and 1902. So, she was born in her father's home. In 1901 he was at his residence, Buckingham Palace Mansions. I think that means he must have had 2 residences.
The family story is that Albert Collins was married to Lizzie and he returned from the Boer War to find her either pregnant or with a child. It wasn't his child. Within a few years the child was placed in a foundling home and was financially supported (we think by Francis Yvon Eccles). In the 1911 census, I found a `May Steer or Collins', age 10 at the North Surrey District School about 10 km from where she was born. I think this is her. I think Steer must be the mother's maiden name???
Francis Yvon Eccles married a `Lisa Collins' in 1902 and he's listed as married in 1911, but there is no wife living with him.
I can't find the marriage of Albert Collins and Lizzie.
I can't find Albert Collins in the Boer War.
I can't find Albert or Lizzie Collins in any census.
I can't find May Dorothy Collins in 1901.
I can't find the birth of May Dorothy Collins (or possibly Steer/Eccles, but Collins is on the birth certificate).
I do have May Dorothy's marriage in the 1920s.
I have been able to trace Francis Yvon Eccles. I can't find any trace of the mother. Any ideas for me to find the mother?
Thank you!
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Hi
I can't find the birth of May Dorothy Collins (or possibly Steer/Eccles, but Collins is on the birth certificate).
I have `May Dorothy Collins', born 17 Aug 1900 (according to her birth certificate).
What date was the birth registered and by whom?
How did you obtain the birth cert?
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I think you need to check out a Lisa Eccles aged 35 born USA in 1911 census in Prittlewell Essex, Francis is living in nearby Southend Essex in 1912.
Jennifer
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I'll look at her! Thank you!
I have the birthdate on the birth certificate and we have the birth certificate because May Dorothy Collins' daughter is still living and has the original.
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1901 census 26 High Street Warwick St Mary Warwickshire
Lizzie Eccles 24 boarder USA
Cyrus 6 Leytonstone Essex
Yvonne V 3 Wallington
Jennifer
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Army record for Cyrus Eccles 1914 gives mothers name as next of kin Lisa Eccles address Pt.Edwins? Mayfield Sussex.
He was only in the army for a few weeks and was discharged as not likely to become an efficient soldier.
Jennifer
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Cyrus reg as Cyrus Collins Mar qtr 1896 West Ham, which would coincide with born Leytonstone.
Jennifer
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Hi again also check the Kathleen Eccles aged 1 b Wallington in 1901 at Manor Road, Wallington RG13/653/133/10 and in the 1911 Essex?
Keyboard86
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I think that Lisa Eccles in 1901 and 1911 is the Lisa Collins that married Francis Yvon Eccles in 1902. F Y Eccles even signed as the head on her 1911 census.
Cyrus Collins was born in the right place according to the census for Cyrus Eccles. There is also a birth for a May Dorothy in the same place in the spring of 1899. The location and date doesn't work for the birth certificate we have, but if he had multiple residences, they may have fudged it.
Now I can't figure out why a sister born in 1898 was given the name Eccles and May Dorothy was given the name Collins in 1899. Another sister born a year later was given the name Eccles and then they married in 1902. Why was May Dorothy different? Also, why was she placed in a foundling home when the others were not.
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The two older girls' birth in Wellington coincides with what we have on May Dorothy Collins' birth certificate in between their births. I definitely think this is the same family. I just have too many variables to nail down the exact relationship between May Dorothy Collins and Lisa Eccles (nee Collins).
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Hi again, the May Dorothy Collins b 1899 West Ham looks to be a daughter of a completely different family in West Ham 1901 census RG13/1592/11/13
Oddly as May Dorothy was apparently born in Wallington 17th August 1900 there is a birth September qtr 1900 Croydon 2a 333 of a Female Eccles, so is this possibly Kathleen or May Dorothy?
Keyboard86
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The other children living as boarders in 1901 seem to be with lower class random families, perhaps May was given to a family member (Albert ) and they kept her? What occupation does,she give for Albert on her marriage cert?
I think the marriage cert. For Lisa and Francis could be worth the money, it would give her fathers name and occupation, also the birth cert of Cyrus would be interesting.
Francis was an author and wrote a book on A century of French Poets, they may have lead a bohemiem type of lifestyle.
Jennifer
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Hi Jennifer, but if the birth certificate of May Dorothy is as stated 17th August 1900 Wallington ( where and how that record is depicted on Freebmd I do not know) then the Kathleen with Lisa/Lizzie in 1911 cannot be the Female Birth in September qtr 1900 Croydon?
Keyboard
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In 1901, Yvonne and Cyrus are with their mother and Kathleen is with a next door neighbour in Wallington where three of the kids were born. The father was at another residence in London. He was a lawyer at that time. His parents were quite wealthy.
In 1911 he's listed an author and she has 4 daughters with her. The census says she's had 6 children and 5 are still living. If she has 4 living with her, Cyrus was in a school elsewhere and I know May survived (and in a school near Croyden), then I account for 6 living children. May didn't see her family again after entering the orphanage. Maybe the mother considered her dead?? She was financially supported there by a family member though.
I found Kathleen's birth in Nov 1899. It seems very tight to have had May on Aug 17, 1900.
If May's birth certificate says 'Collins', wouldn't the registration say Collins? Is the birth certificate the paper produced after registration?? I have searched for Eccles, but I keep reminding myself that it must be Collins. Am I wrong?
Thank you for your help on this! I agree that the Francis/Lisa wedding might be worth ordering. I also think the Cyrus birth might be worth ordering since he was registered as a Collins. This research is for my cousin. May is her g grandmother and May's daughter is following this with delight :) My cousin is going to order Francis Yvon Eccles' probate in hopes that it says something.
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The 3rd qtr 1900 has a female Collins and a female Eccles in Croydon. That's her. Thanks! I hadn't thought to look her up that way.
I still don't understand her story, but I found her BMD registration, which was one of my issues.
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Any idea why she wouldn't have been registered with a name? I would have thought those were children who died moments after birth and weren't named. She has a name on her birth certificate.
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I have asked what profession was given for Albert on the marriage cert. My cousin is asking her aunt later today to get a scan/photo of the two certs and send them to her. Once we have that, I'll know more.
Thank you for your help and ideas on this! The family is a tangle!
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You can order the birth cert for the two Reg. In Croydon giving fathers name, it would only be supplied if it matched.
Jennifer
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There are loads of Lizzie Collins arrivals and departures but I can't access them to check them out.
If she was born in the USA c.1877 someone may be able to pick her up arriving here.
Jennifer
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Looked at electoral rolls and Francis Yvon Eccles lived with his father from at least 1921 to 1929 (father died 1929). In 1933 Francis is living with Yvonne Violet and Evelyn.
Haven't looked at all the entries but in 1945 Evelyn still with him. In 1958 and 1963 Francis living alone.
Yvonne Violet married as Eccles in 1941 Westminster to a Roberts. She died 1983 Westminster and her birth date is given as 15/1/1898.
Surely the death of a Lisa Eccles bc.1879 d.Mar.qtr.1941 Windsor must be May's mother?? Granted 4/5 years younger than previously but cannot see any birth for such a person, nor any other marriage for a Lisa to an Eccles.
1. The whole crux of the information regarding May Dorothy comes from the birth certificate that family has - do you have a copy of it? If not, is it possible that they could let you have a copy to ascertain exactly what the certificate says re. her mothers name, occupation of Albert Collins etc., when it was actually issued? It seems strange that it contains all this information yet looks like birth registered under both Collins and Eccles but with no Christian name given in index. It makes me think the certificate family has must have been issued at a later date (perhaps for pension reasons).
2. You say May married in 1920's - can you tell us whom she married? I cannot find an obvious death entry for her based on her birthdate.
3. If Albert Collins was in the army it's possible that at some time he was in either Canada/America and met/married Lisa (Lizzie) there (if they were indeed married).
4. You say that May was brought up in an orphanage and financially supported by family BUT the place where she was aged 10 was actually said to be the 'Workhouse' per census.
Since all the other children grew up as 'Eccles' (whether born Collins or not) and just May seems to have been abandoned is it possible that Francis did not recognise her as his (perhaps away at the time of her conception). I don't think Kathleen married - her birth reg'd Eccles Dec.1899 Croydon and a Kathleen Eccles b.7/11/1899 died in Bath in 1991 - possibly her? If so, just 9 months between her birth and that of May Dorothy!!
Annette
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My cousin is asking her aunt to copy the birth and marriage certificate today and send it to her. May never had a birth certificate and the one the family has was issued in 1947. What you said makes sense! The birth lists Francis Yvon Eccles and the marriage lists Albert Collins as the father. As soon as I get the certificates, I will look at Albert's occupation and the witnesses.
She married Alfred Thomas Boxall in 1923 and both of them died in Canada in the late 1980s.
Family lore says she was sponsored in a 'foundling home' where she went at about 4 years old. She has no memories of her family. Her brother Cyrus was in a school in 1911 as well.
There is a question of the parentage. The father was gone somewhere and when he returned, there was a baby. 9 months is very tight to have a baby! Maybe she was early and that's why parentage was questioned?? Maybe that's why she wasn't initially given a name? She was small and not expected to live?? I'll ask my cousin to question her grandmother on that. If she never had contact with her family, I doubt she knows that answer.
Thank you for all the help!
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Perhaps checking the Workhouse School records for Anerly Road, Penge might be worth looking at to see who admitted her and when?
Annette
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We definitely need to find out who admitted her and when.
Would it make sense that she was taken from her mother at birth, if she wasn't expected to live, and then when she did live, they didn't know how to reach the parents? Then raised her as an orphan? That would explain why her mother said on the 1911 census that one of her children had died. Also, if she was born only 9 months and 10 days after her sister, she was probably early and sickly. May was very petite her entire life. The family lore about parentage must have been made up in her imagination as the workhouse wouldn't know that detail and she had no contact with her family. Maybe other kids planted it in her head.
Is that plausible?
We definitely need to get her admission records.
If I could find her in 1901 it would help figure this out.
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Evelyn (her sister)'s birth wasn't registered until 1928! They backdated it back to the first qtr of 1902. What was going on with this family??
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Hi again, the departure of a May D Boxall 12th September 1956 occ Housewife Liverpool to Montreal abode in UK 13, Hampstead Meadows, Chidham, Chichester confirms dob as 17th August 1900
May as May Boxall aged 56 b 17th August 1900 arrived back in the UK same address in UK 24th January 1957 New York to Southampton on the Queen Mary
May as May Boxall aged 50 address in UK Dormen? Cottage, Vincent Road, Selsey arrived back to UK 26th October 1950 Montreal to Liverpool with two young girls aged 14 and 11
MARY Boxall aged 48 occ Domestic departed Southampton 19th October 1948 for Halifax on Vessel Aquitania along with a son 16 occ Book Binder and daughters 12 and 9 address in UK Ellerslee, Manor Road, Selsey
Keyboard86
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I've seen her birth certificate now. She was registered without a name on Sept 28, 6 weeks after her birth. Either she was sickly and not expected to live or someone really didn't want her. :( She was registered by both parents. Since there was no name (given or surname) for the child, she was registered under both parents' surnames - Female Eccles and Female Collins.
Thank you for your help! I'd still like to find her in the 1901 census because it would give a clue as to what happened to her from the beginning. I'd also like to find Lizzie/Lisa Collins' origins.
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When did Lisa/Lizzie arrive from USA?
Who named the baby if no name given at registration?
Albert Collins, need to know his occupation.
Details of addresses and witnesses from marriage certificate .
Jennifer
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Do you have a private tree on line?
Jennifer
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Also think the certificate for Cyrus is a must.
Could May have been the daughter of Yvon Eccles the father?.
Jennifer
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Yes, I have a private tree on ancestry.
My cousin is ordering Cyrus' birth cert, Lisa Collins/Francis Yvon Eccles marriage and Francis Yvon's probate. She's also going to try to get the workhouse admission records. She already has May's birth and May's marriage.
It turns out Francis Yvon Eccles was a professor of French Literature, a journalist, and lived in France a lot of the time. His family was wealthy. They are surgeons, engineers, and even the 4th premier of Tasmania. And yet, May was in a workhouse.
I wondered if she was the daughter of another family member, but I hadn't considered his father. Someone else on ancestry has Yvon Richard as the father, the mother dying in 1893 and May's daughter as her step-sister. That's obviously incorrect. If she's the daughter of someone else, that could explain why the daughters are only 9 months, 10 days apart and also why she was pushed out of the family.
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My money would be on Francis not being the father of Cyrus.
Can we know the occupation of Albert Collins from the marriage certificate , it may help to track him down, if he existed ?
Jennifer
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>:(Was wondering who else is looking up my family? I have copies of may Dorothy collins birth certificate and found the information great! Thanks
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Wondering if anyone can help with May Dorothy Collins born 1900 in Wallington!
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Just to inform eccles1 and andarah1:
I have just posted this new thread as it has a different slant, but does mention aspects of this thread:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=872773 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=872773)
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Just to add an update, during the summer, I came up with a new theory. I shared this with the family and a professional family historian hired by the family has agreed with it. There are records going along with this that I won't mention to make it succinct for anyone interested.
My theory is that May's parents are (at least on paper) Thomas John Collins (this could need looking into) and Florence Eliza Steer. There is a birth record for this as Florence May Collins. This is because my family have strong DNA relationships to the Steer family and also the descendants of May Dorothy Collins as well as the shared matches aligning. From these DNA matches, we can identify records.
Now, the part about Albert Collins (the reputed father) going to fight in the Boer War and coming back to find a baby that wasn't his is possible - just that Albert was actually Thomas John Collins.
Thomas is in South Africa at the time of the 1901 Census, so the household back in London includes
Florence Eliza Collins and daughters Maud and May. Descendants of Maud do match descendants of May highly, but also to my family. However, by 1904, they are in the workhouse and subsequently the census record near to the start of the thread is correct.
My theory is that Florence Eliza ran off to Kent, changed her name to Mary and had a child with Joseph Yielding (who died before the birth of the child) and then 5 more children with Thomas Smith (my family). This is certainly what the DNA evidence suggests.
Thomas John Collins did return to London and get in contact with his daughter Maud Collins, but not May. He did go on to build a family with a Frances May Jessup. Hopefully, a descendant of them will read this and say that they have done a DNA test. If they do not match the family of May Collins, then we know that Thomas John Collins was not May's father; if they do, then it confirms the father.
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My theory is that May's parents are (at least on paper) Thomas John Collins (this could need looking into) and Florence Eliza Steer. There is a birth record for this as Florence May Collins.
I am not sure if I am understanding this correctly.
COLLINS, FLORENCE MAY
Mother's maiden surname: STEER
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 778
The following is the birth that is said to be that of May Dorothy ECCLES/COLLINS.
ECCLES, (no first name)
No mother's maiden surname
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 333
There is a comment on an Ancestry tree that says...
"We have a copy of her birth certificate. She was born at Laurel Bank, Manor Road, Wallington (her father's address). She was registered without a name and her BMD says Female Eccles and another says Female Collins. She was also registered as having died."
I haven't seen the birth cert but I assume that they mean that it is noted that the child was deceased by the time the birth was registered. If this is the case I can't understand why anyone would think it was the birth cert for May Dorothy.
Death
COLLINS, No first name
Aged under 12 months
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 178
Debra :)
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My theory is that May's parents are (at least on paper) Thomas John Collins (this could need looking into) and Florence Eliza Steer. There is a birth record for this as Florence May Collins.
I am not sure if I am understanding this correctly.
COLLINS, FLORENCE MAY
Mother's maiden surname: STEER
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in WANDSWORTH Volume 01D Page 778
The following is the birth that is said to be that of May Dorothy ECCLES/COLLINS.
ECCLES, (no first name)
No mother's maiden surname
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 333
There is a comment on an Ancestry tree that says...
"We have a copy of her birth certificate. She was born at Laurel Bank, Manor Road, Wallington (her father's address). She was registered without a name and her BMD says Female Eccles and another says Female Collins. She was also registered as having died."
I haven't seen the birth cert but I assume that they mean that it is noted that the child was deceased by the time the birth was registered. If this is the case I can't understand why anyone would think it was the birth cert for May Dorothy.
Death
COLLINS, No first name
Aged under 12 months
GRO Reference: 1900 S Quarter in CROYDON Volume 02A Page 178
Debra :)
At some point as an adult, May applied for her birth certificate with the little information that she had (long before digital records). As she was very young when she was left at the workhouse, she probably remembered very little.
In the workhouse records, she very quickly dropped the Florence part of her name which she seems to have forgotten and used May. She seems to know that she was born in August. She may also have remembered uncertainty around her birth. She also picks up the name Dorothy from somewhere.
As the person tasked with finding the birth record only had:
- May Dorothy Collins
- born mid-August 1900
- born London (area)
They couldn't find a matching birth, so then looked for the unnamed birth records and found one that roughly matched the above information.
They then didn't check to see whether that child could have died - which she unfortunately did.
The Florence May Collins birth you have there is the right one. I do have the digital copy of it.
I still have some level of doubt with Thomas John Collins as he was a soldier who fought in the Boer War. Looking into the history of his regiment, he sailed for South Africa on the 19th October 1899.
Florence May Collins was born on the 11th August 1900 which means she was very overdue or not Thomas's.
Also, using DNA of May's daughter, the professional genealogist could not find matches to Thomas Collins. This could be because nobody has tested or that Thomas is not the father.
Thomas does state on his WW1 records that his next of kin is his daughter Maud (living at the same address as him). Interestingly, Maud was born before the marriage of Thomas John Collins and Florence Eliza Steer, but he does acknowledge her as his daughter.
Hopefully, a descendant of Thomas Collins and Frances Jessup, will see this and confirm through DNA matches whether May's daughter comes up as a DNA match on AncestryDNA.
I hope this helps! ;D
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Are these the births you mean :-\
Births Sep qtr 1900
COLLINS Female Croydon 2a 333
ECCLES Female Croydon 2a 333
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Are these the births you mean :-\
Births Sep qtr 1900
COLLINS Female Croydon 2a 333
ECCLES Female Croydon 2a 333
Yes, that's the one that was given to May.
It turns out that it was the wrong birth record.
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We have had quite a few people on this forum who have started their research with the wrong birth certificate.
Hopefully, a descendant of Thomas Collins and Frances Jessup, will see this and confirm through DNA matches whether May's daughter comes up as a DNA match on AncestryDNA.
What about descendants of Thomas' sister Minnie COLLINS who married Albert SMITH? Maud gave their address, 41 Bath Road, when she married in 1918 so presumedly she was living with them at time. If Thomas is also May's father then Minnie's descendants should match a bit too.
Debra :)
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What about descendants of Thomas' sister Minnie COLLINS who married Albert SMITH? Maud gave their address, 41 Bath Road, when she married in 1918 so presumedly she was living with them at time. If Thomas is also May's father then Minnie's descendants should match a bit too.
Debra :)
Yes, you're right that's a possibility too. Any relation to Thomas could be useful.
I just thought that the closer the match the more interest a DNA match would have with this family - enough to stumble across this thread. Of course any descendant of Thomas's parents (John Collins and Elizabeth Rebecca Stokes) could stumble across the thread in their research too. Hopefully, someone in the family has taken an AncestryDNA* test and can help us out.
*I say AncestryDNA as that is where a lot of descendants of May have tested - including one of her daughters.