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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: kellymasters on Saturday 12 December 15 07:08 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I have a copy of a birth cert for my great grandfather, and i am wanting to know what an occupier or other witness would be? Thank you
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Hi there,
Which state please?
I think you may find that occupier is similar in meaning to say "head of household", but if you are referring to a NSW birth certificate, then are you looking at the rank/profession/occupation of the child's parent/s or are you looking at the section with the heading 'Witness' .... and then there's 3 options .... (1) is often the name of the doctor (2) is often the name of the midwife and (3) is often a witness to the birth who does not have formal qualifications .... for example the occupier of the residence where the baby was born....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=574209.0
Cheers, JM
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Hi there,
Which state please?
I think you may find that occupier is similar in meaning to say "head of household", but if you are referring to a NSW birth certificate, then are you looking at the rank/profession/occupation of the child's parent/s or are you looking at the section with the heading 'Witness' .... and then there's 3 options .... (1) is often the name of the doctor (2) is often the name of the midwife and (3) is often a witness to the birth who does not have formal qualifications .... for example the occupier of the residence where the baby was born....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=574209.0
Cheers, JM
Okay, thanks .....so in your opinion what do you think the occupier would have been in this birth?
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Hi there,
Which state please?
I think you may find that occupier is similar in meaning to say "head of household", but if you are referring to a NSW birth certificate, then are you looking at the rank/profession/occupation of the child's parent/s or are you looking at the section with the heading 'Witness' .... and then there's 3 options .... (1) is often the name of the doctor (2) is often the name of the midwife and (3) is often a witness to the birth who does not have formal qualifications .... for example the occupier of the residence where the baby was born....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=574209.0
Cheers, JM
Sorry Victoria
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kellymasters,
Which of the births on the page is your great grandfather?
PLANE?
Sue
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Didn't OP say Plane - top one on page? :-\ See bottom reply#2 - very small! ;)
If you are talking about the word 'occupier' at the head of the column, then as JM says the occupier of the residence.
I can't see the word written anywhere else on that document, but I could be missing something.
Wiggy
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kellymasters,
Which of the births on the page is your great grandfather?
Sue
Sorry, was in a rush to post,
Edward George Kitchener PLANE
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Didn't OP say Plane - top one on page? :-\
If you are talking about the word 'occupier' at the head of the column, then as JM says the occupier of the residence.
I can't see the word written anywhere else on that document, but I could be missing something.
Wiggy
Mrs HEFFERNAN? This is the main name I am questioning. It seems that the mother Mary later left Australia and came to NZ and married a George Edward HEFFERNAN. I am confused why there is a HEFFERNAN at this birth?????
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Mrs Heffernan is the name of the second person who assisted with the birth. She is either the Occupier or simply another witness. There was no Accoucheur, Mrs Stokes was the Nurse, and Mrs Heffernan was the "Occupier or other Witnesses".
ADD
Mrs Heffernan does not need to be related to the family. She may have been a neighbour. Womenfolk who had had their own children often would assist in the delivery of the babies in their neighbourhood. Menfolk were banished :) I notice that the baby was 'not present' when the birth was being registered. The likely reason for there being two names mentioned for witnesses would be to support each other if any question arose about the birth.
Cheers JM
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Mrs Heffernan is the name of the second person who assisted with the birth. She is either the Occupier or simply another witness. There was no Accoucheur, Mrs Stokes was the Nurse, and Mrs Heffernan was the "Occupier or other Witnesses".
Cheers, JM
How weird, .....
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I wonder how/why?
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Interesting - Electoral rolls show George Edward HEFFERNAN, labourer, lived at Wright St, Elmore in 1903 - no-one else of that surname listed in the same street. I'm thinking that women did not have to enroll to vote at that time
Thomas Henry PLANE, trapper, and Mary PLANE, home duties, are also shown at Wright St. There are no house numbers given so cannot tell if these people were all in the same house, or just living in the same street.
Judith
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I had added to my post, in anticipation of your further question.... :)
Babies were often born at home rather than at a laying in hospital.
Accoucheur .... Google is your friend.
Cheers, JM
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Interesting - Electoral rolls show George Edward HEFFERNAN, labourer, lived at Wright St, Elmore in 1903 - no-one else of that surname listed in the same street. I'm thinking that women did not have to enroll to vote at that time
Thomas Henry PLANE, trapper, and Mary PLANE, home duties, are also shown at Wright St. There are no house numbers given so cannot tell if these people were all in the same house, or just living in the same street.
Judith
Thanks Judith, the more I know the more questions I have, ....yes it makes me wonder if they were living in the same house? Gosh the kind boggles..... This family has definitely given me many questions :)
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I had added to my post, in anticipation of your further question.... :)
Babies were often born at home rather than at a laying in hospital.
Accoucheur .... Google is your friend.
Cheers, JM
Thanks still a retaliative newbie, sometimes forget to use goggle :)
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Thomas Henry PLANE, trapper and Mary PLANE, hd, still at Wright St, Elmore in 1905 as is George
Henry Edward HEFFERNAN. However electoral rolls are often slow to change addresses etc.
Edit - sorry, wrong name - correct name is George Edward HEFFERNAN (thanks, Debra)
In 1912 Thomas Henry PLANE, labourer is shown at Heathcote - no street names given
Also at Heathcote in 1912 is Harriet Jessmine PLANE.
No relationships are shown on electoral rolls, but on-line public trees suggest that Thomas and Harriet married and were together until he died in Heathcote in 1937 and Harriet died in Heathcote in 1950.
Judith
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:) :) :)
I am fascinated with the last entry on the page .... Daisy, (TURNBULL) elder of twins, she, like the other babies on this particular page was Not Present at the registry. She was born 22 August 1902 and her birth registered 18th October 1902 ....
9 days left in August 1902
30 days in Sept 1902
18 days into Oct 1902
57 days after birth ..... what was the time allowed to register a birth in 1902 in Vic ....
Was Daisy's younger twin a boy or a girl .....
Cheers, JM
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Thomas Henry PLANE, trapper and Mary PLANE, hd, still at Wright St, Elmore in 1905 as is George Henry HEFFERNAN. However electoral rolls are often slow to change addresses etc.
In 1912 Thomas Henry PLANE, labourer is shown at Heathcote - no street names given
Also at Heathcote in 1912 is Harriet Jessmine PLANE.
No relationships are shown on electoral rolls, but on-line public trees suggest that Thomas and Harriet married and were together until he died in Heathcote in 1937 and Harriet died in Heathcote in 1950.
Judith
Thank you Judith, I have found no marriage record for Thomas Henry Plane and Harriet. I am a descendant of Thomas Plane and Mary GALLAGHER.
I do find it weird that a HEFFERNAN appears on my great grandfathers birth record and later his mother leaves his father Thomas PLANE and married a HEFFERNAN.
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:) :) :)
I am fascinated with the last entry on the page .... Daisy, (TURNBULL) elder of twins, she, like the other babies on this particular page was Not Present at the registry. She was born 22 August 1902 and her birth registered 18th October 1902 ....
9 days left in August 1902
30 days in Sept 1902
18 days into Oct 1902
57 days after birth ..... what was the time allowed to register a birth in 1902 in Vic ....
Was Daisy's younger twin a boy or a girl .....
Cheers, JM
Ummmmmmm not sure? Sorry
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57 days after birth ..... what was the time allowed to register a birth in 1902 in Vic ....
60 days after the birth by father, mother or occupier was the legislation in 1890...possibly still the same in 1902.....and FYI death 15 days :).
Cando
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It's still 60 days in Victoria
http://www.lawreform.vic.gov.au/content/3-birth-registration
The late Queen Mother's father was fined 7 shillings and sixpence for the late registration of his daughter, and the registration states that she was born at St Paul's Walden in Hertfordshire, where she was christened at All Saints, although the birth was supposed to have taken place in London.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/1389435/Her-Majesty-Queen-Elizabeth-the-Queen-Mother.html
Judith
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Interesting - Electoral rolls show George Edward HEFFERNAN, labourer, lived at Wright St, Elmore in 1903 - no-one else of that surname listed in the same street.
Judith
Thomas Henry PLANE, trapper and Mary PLANE, hd, still at Wright St, Elmore in 1905 as is George Henry HEFFERNAN. However electoral rolls are often slow to change addresses etc.
In 1912 Thomas Henry PLANE, labourer is shown at Heathcote - no street names given
Also at Heathcote in 1912 is Harriet Jessmine PLANE.
Judith
Both of these entries are for George Edward HEFFERNAN.
I do find it weird that a HEFFERNAN appears on my great grandfathers birth record and later his mother leaves his father Thomas PLANE and married a HEFFERNAN.
Thomas and Harriet had an ex-nuptial child in 1908.
A George Edward HEFFERNAN and Mary had a child in NZ in 1910.
I would say that George and Mary went to NZ together.
Debra :D
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Interesting - Electoral rolls show George Edward HEFFERNAN, labourer, lived at Wright St, Elmore in 1903 - no-one else of that surname listed in the same street.
Judith
Thomas Henry PLANE, trapper and Mary PLANE, hd, still at Wright St, Elmore in 1905 as is George Henry HEFFERNAN. However electoral rolls are often slow to change addresses etc.
Hmmmmmmm not sure who a George Henry HEFFERNAN is?
In 1912 Thomas Henry PLANE, labourer is shown at Heathcote - no street names given
Also at Heathcote in 1912 is Harriet Jessmine PLANE.
Judith
Both of these entries are for George Edward HEFFERNAN.
I do find it weird that a HEFFERNAN appears on my great grandfathers birth record and later his mother leaves his father Thomas PLANE and married a HEFFERNAN.
Thomas and Harriet had an ex-nuptial child in 1908.
A George Edward HEFFERNAN and Mary had a child in NZ in 1910.
I would say that George and Mary went to NZ together.
Debra :D
I have found no shipping record for either of them coming to NZ. Really dont know i they came together or seperately.
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Thanks, Debra - have amended original re the electoral roll at Elmore for Mr HEFFERNAN. Shows that one should not try and do genealogy while cooking!! ::)
Judith
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It is not unusual in the shipping records 1890s - WWI between NZ and the eastern seaboard states of Australia for the passengers names to be simply Mr and Mrs SURNAME and x children.... :) afterall, in the 1890s it had been far more likely that NZ would be a foundation state rather than Western Australia.... :) The Australian Constitution made provision for NZ :)
Cheers, JM
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Thanks, Debra - have amended original re the electoral roll at Elmore for Mr HEFFERNAN. Shows that one should not try and do genealogy while cooking!! ::)
Judith
:)
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It is not unusual in the shipping records 1890s - WWI between NZ and the eastern seaboard states of Australia for the passengers names to be simply Mr and Mrs SURNAME and x children.... :) afterall, in the 1890s it had been far more likely that NZ would be a foundation state rather than Western Australia.... :) The Australian Constitution made provision for NZ :)
Cheers, JM
Thanks, will definitely have another go :)
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You can search Victorian Outward shipping here.
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=42
There are a few contenders going to NZ ports or to Bluff, which I assume is the Southland NZ port, in the right time frame. As JM has already pointed out these records often have only surnames and this is the case with this list.
They may not have travelled on the same voyage. :-\
Where did they live in NZ?
Judith
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Thomas and Harriet had an ex-nuptial child in 1908.
A George Edward HEFFERNAN and Mary had a child in NZ in 1910.
I would say that George and Mary went to NZ together.
Debra :D
Harriet HORTON had a birth in 1903
HORTON Arth Raymond
Father Unknown
Mother Harrt Jessamine HORTON
Birth Place ELMORE
Year 1903
Reg. Number 2834
This Victorian birth fits quite well with the NZ death of George Edward
HEFFERNAN George Edward
Father George Johnston
Mother Christina ROBINSON
Birth Place CAUL
Year 1881
Reg Number 8031
Death
1953/29242 HEFFERNAN George Edward
Aged 71Y
Sue
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Here is Harriet's death
PLANE Harriet Jessamine
Father Chas Horton
Mother Eliza PINSHON
Death Place HEATHCOTE
Age 70
Year 1950
Reg Number 16999
Sue
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This Victorian birth fits quite well with the NZ death of George Edward
HEFFERNAN George Edward
Father George Johnston
Mother Christina ROBINSON
Birth Place CAUL
Year 1881
Reg Number 8031
Death
1953/29242 HEFFERNAN George Edward
Aged 71Y
Sue
Yes, this is the correct birth.
When Christiana HEFFERNAN died in 1918, she left a will which is digitised.
There was a bequest to her son George Edward HEFFERNAN of Mareter, New Zealand, rail employee.
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
Sue
ADDING
I cannot find a sighting of this Mrs HEFFERNAN (Christiana) in the vicinity of Elmore in 1902
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Thomas PLANE also died at Heathcote and both are buried in the Cemetery there.
Surname PLANE Thos Hy
Father Plane Thos Hy
Mother Jane HAINES
Death Place HTHCOTE
Age 71
Year 1937
Reg Number 16452
At this link you can order a photo of the headstone. You will note on the list there are others of the family there too.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ausvsac/Heathcote.htm
Sue
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I do find it weird that a HEFFERNAN appears on my great grandfathers birth record and later his mother leaves his father Thomas PLANE and married a HEFFERNAN.
Perhaps you have information to the contrary, but I do not see a marriage between PLANE/GALLAGHER and HEFFERNAN. Where and when do you believe it took place?
Maybe it was after the death of Mary's husband, Thomas, in 1937, so not accessible in the NZ BMD.
I can see from records the presence in Australia of the sons Frederick James and Charles Eric PLANE. Perhaps she did not take them when she left with HEFFERNAN.
Do you know what happened to Henrietta?
It will be interesting to hear whether the information we have found is of interest to you ;D
Sue
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:) Wow what an amazing response....and so quickly, I will look and answer :)
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Thomas Henry PLANE, trapper and Mary PLANE, hd, still at Wright St, Elmore in 1905 as is George Henry Edward HEFFERNAN. However electoral rolls are often slow to change addresses etc.
Edit - sorry, wrong name - correct name is George Edward HEFFERNAN (thanks, Debra)
In 1912 Thomas Henry PLANE, labourer is shown at Heathcote - no street names given
Also at Heathcote in 1912 is Harriet Jessmine PLANE.
No relationships are shown on electoral rolls, but on-line public trees suggest that Thomas and Harriet married and were together until he died in Heathcote in 1937 and Harriet died in Heathcote in 1950.
Judith
Hi Judith,
Thank you for that. Yes, So far I have been unable to find a marriage record for Harriet Jessmine PLANE and Thomas Henry PLANE. However I notice that they had children and she is listed as you say on electoral rolls as PLANE
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You can search Victorian Outward shipping here.
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=42
There are a few contenders going to NZ ports or to Bluff, which I assume is the Southland NZ port, in the right time frame. As JM has already pointed out these records often have only surnames and this is the case with this list.
They may not have travelled on the same voyage. :-\
Where did they live in NZ?
Judith
Hi Judith,
Mary and Thomas Plane had a set of twins Dorothy and Eric PLANE in 1906, so Mary had to have come to NZ sometime after that. I know she brought Dorothy (known in NZ on her marriage cert as Doris Jean PLANE) and my great great Grandfather Edward George Kitchener PLANE with her when she came. She left the other children behind (At least so the story goes, i have found nothing to prove or disprove).
George Edward HEFFERNAN is on Electoral rolls here in NZ from 1928 in the Bay of Plenty area. I have found nothing for Mary PLANE (maiden name GALLAGHER).
George Edward HEFFERNAN and Mary married in Napier NZ 1939.
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Thomas and Harriet had an ex-nuptial child in 1908.
A George Edward HEFFERNAN and Mary had a child in NZ in 1910.
I would say that George and Mary went to NZ together.
Debra :D
Yes, to the children......still unsure as to whether they came together or separately to NZ
Harriet HORTON had a birth in 1903
HORTON Arth Raymond
Father Unknown
Mother Harrt Jessamine HORTON
Birth Place ELMORE
Year 1903
Reg. Number 2834
This Victorian birth fits quite well with the NZ death of George Edward
HEFFERNAN George Edward
Father George Johnston
Mother Christina ROBINSON
Birth Place CAUL
Year 1881
Reg Number 8031
Death
1953/29242 HEFFERNAN George Edward
Aged 71Y
Sue
Yes to the NZ death, and NZ birth. Thank you for reconfirming this for me :)
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Here is Harriet's death
PLANE Harriet Jessamine
Father Chas Horton
Mother Eliza PINSHON
Death Place HEATHCOTE
Age 70
Year 1950
Reg Number 16999
Sue
Thank you, yes I had this one :)
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This Victorian birth fits quite well with the NZ death of George Edward
HEFFERNAN George Edward
Father George Johnston
Mother Christina ROBINSON
Birth Place CAUL
Year 1881
Reg Number 8031
Death
1953/29242 HEFFERNAN George Edward
Aged 71Y
Sue
Yes, this is the correct birth.
When Christiana HEFFERNAN died in 1918, she left a will which is digitised.
There was a bequest to her son George Edward HEFFERNAN of Mareter, New Zealand, rail employee.
http://prov.vic.gov.au/index_search?searchid=54
Sue
ADDING
I cannot find a sighting of this Mrs HEFFERNAN (Christiana) in the vicinity of Elmore in 1902
Thanks Sue, This is all new to me. :)
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Thomas PLANE also died at Heathcote and both are buried in the Cemetery there.
Surname PLANE Thos Hy
Father Plane Thos Hy
Mother Jane HAINES
Death Place HTHCOTE
Age 71
Year 1937
Reg Number 16452
At this link you can order a photo of the headstone. You will note on the list there are others of the family there too.
http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ausvsac/Heathcote.htm
Sue
Gosh you have been busy, Thanks :)
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I do find it weird that a HEFFERNAN appears on my great grandfathers birth record and later his mother leaves his father Thomas PLANE and married a HEFFERNAN.
Perhaps you have information to the contrary, but I do not see a marriage between PLANE/GALLAGHER and HEFFERNAN. Where and when do you believe it took place?
Maybe it was after the death of Mary's husband, Thomas, in 1937, so not accessible in the NZ BMD.
I can see from records the presence in Australia of the sons Frederick James and Charles Eric PLANE. Perhaps she did not take them when she left with HEFFERNAN.
Do you know what happened to Henrietta?
It will be interesting to hear whether the information we have found is of interest to you ;D
Sue
HI Sue,
yes a marraige took place in Napier, NZ after the death of Thomas PLANE. 9 Jan 1939.
I wish I could find a shipping record that showed when they came to NZ and if they came together, but I haven't yet.
The other interesting point is I have not yet found any electoral rolls, with Mary PLANE/HEFFERNAN either.
Only two children or so I have been found (Dorothy and Edward George Kitchener PLANE came to NZ). The rest stayed in Australia. Why I am not sure.
And as for Henrietta, I dnt know anymore other than her birth, at this stage.....
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Mary and Thomas Plane had a set of twins Dorothy and Eric PLANE in 1906, so Mary had to have come to NZ sometime after that. I know she brought Dorothy (known in NZ on her marriage cert as Doris Jean PLANE) and my great great Grandfather Edward George Kitchener PLANE with her when she came. She left the other children behind (At least so the story goes, i have found nothing to prove or disprove).
Hi
Good to hear the information is helping.
I do not see a birth of twins in Victoria to the couple in 1906.
Where did you get the the information?
Sue
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Mary and Thomas Plane had a set of twins Dorothy and Eric PLANE in 1906, so Mary had to have come to NZ sometime after that. I know she brought Dorothy (known in NZ on her marriage cert as Doris Jean PLANE) and my great great Grandfather Edward George Kitchener PLANE with her when she came.
I do not see a birth of twins in Victoria to the couple in 1906.
Where did you get the the information?
Births are registered in NSW ;)
Eric F PLANE b. 1906 ALBURY #31610
Dorothy J PLANE b. 1906 ALBURY #31611
Parents: Thomas H & Mary
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Births are registered in NSW ;)
Eric F PLANE b. 1906 ALBURY #31610
Dorothy J PLANE b. 1906 ALBURY #31611
Parents: Thomas H & Mary
Deduced from NSW BDM online ..... Eric and Dorothy Born 31 Dec 1906
:) May I suggest if you are considering purchasing the birth certificates, that you order Official Transcriptions rather than the more expensive certificate. You will get the same information.
:) May I also suggest you get #31611 (Dorothy) as it is numbered next after Eric's. So, hopefully it will be for the younger of twins. NSW BDM birth registrations include details of the OLDER siblings .... so Dorothy's should include details for Eric..... :) (two registrations for the price of one !) It should also include the name and relationship of the person registering the birth, and details about Thomas H and Mary
Here's the NSW BDM live link to their Official Transcription Agents.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription
What to expect on a NSW birth registration:
:) Full given name/s, sex, date and place of birth (sometimes includes day of week, not just date and sometimes includes full street address/rural property name, not just town or village.)
:) Mum's details full name and maiden name (and perhaps any other former names), age, occupation, place of birth.
:) Dad's details - same depth of detail as for Mum .... so his full name, age, occupation, place of birth.
:) Date and place of parents' marriage.
:) Previous children of the relationship (name and age of living, number and gender of deceased).
:) Name and relationship of informant,
:) Name of Midwife/Doctor and any others present at the birth.
Cheers, JM
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Was Thomas Henry PLANE's marriage to Mary GALLAGHER his second?
5846/1889 PLANE Thomas H
BILLMAN Maria E
MOAMA
A child in Victoria
PLANE George William Henry
Father Thomas Henry
Mother Maria Emily BILLMAN
Birth Place ROCHESTER
Year 1890
Reg. Number16926
Death of Maria
PLANE Maria
Father BILLMAN Wm
Mother Maria WHITE
Age 20
At Sandhurst
Year1890
Reg. Number 13779
Sue
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Here is the death of Eric PLANE in NSW
3835/1907 PLANE Eric F
Parents Thomas H & Mary
At ALBURY
Sue
PS
Bear in mind the first birth to Thomas H PANE and Harriet HORTON was in 1908 in Victoria ::)
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Deduced from NSW BDM online ..... Eric and Dorothy Born 31 Dec 1906
Just wanted to point out that the twins' birth date is not stated on the NSW BDM site, nor can it be confirmed using confined search parameters on the date. While it is usually possible to find the exact date using a binary search method, but for some reason there's a handful of records that will be found regardless of the date range searched for (as long as it's within the right year). Unfortunately, the Plane twins fall into this category.
You can, however, use the binary search to deduce that Eric's date of death was 23 Apr 1907.
Cheers, :)
Toban
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Toban, I deduced the twins birthdate using NSW BDM online. And since reading your post, I have again deduced the twins birthdate using NSW BDM online.
The birthdate is 31 December 1906. Because 31 December is the end of the calendar year 1906 the 'to' date you need to enter is 1 January 1907. :)
The NSW BDM online search option needs the 'from' date to be different from and prior to the 'to' date. :)
Cheers, JM
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Are you saying that regardless of the date from and to, that the birthdate can be any date in 1906?
IF that is the case, then I will contact one of my rellies (retired NSW BDM senior officer) and ask him for any clues re that. Last time something like that cropped up, it was basically a late registration, but that was for a marriage.
Cheers, JM
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Yes, regardless of what start and end dates you put in for them, a result will always be returned. You can confirm this if you select 'No' in the "Date of Event Range" box, thus allowing you to put in a specific date. Any date in 1906 put in that box will return a match for Eric Plane or Dorothy Plane. Furthermore, you can confirm the 23/04/1907 death date by putting that in the box when searching for deaths for Eric. Nothing is returned if another date is entered.
It's a weird anomaly, and I don't know the reason for it. Just that a small percentage of BDM entries are affected by it, usually in the early 1900s [of course, most of the early church records on there, baptisms, e.g., will also give a result for any date, presumably because the birth date is not necessarily given on a baptism]. :)
Also, something to keep in mind for the future, if a child is born on 31 December, their birth is probably going to be registered in the new year, and so will have a different registration year to their birth year.
T
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Well-spotted Toban :) And well-explained. :)
cheers,
Ros
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I have made phone call.
:) It is important to remember that the basis for the current online index actually goes back to the volunteer work done in the 1930s.
:) It is also important to remember that entries prior to WWI are based on verbal information, particularly for births.
:) While the clerk at Albury Court House would be familiar with registering births, the parent will not be as knowledgeable.
:) The registrations were MEANT to be sent through to Sydney each quarter, so Oct, Nov, Dec were sent through in January. (Jan/Feb/March in April etc) (Some were sent annually, others were not sent at all.... and were NOT actually formally found until the 1980s when all court house registers were recalled to Sydney)
:) However, when the volunteers in the 1930s were preparing the indexes, some volunteers only wrote down the year of birth, and so the current index for these ones allows for ANY date in that YEAR ....
:) Back in the 1970s NSW BDM went EDP and the date of birth and year of registration were both keyed in. NOT all the cards 'worked' .... some were jammed in the process, some fell, some tore, some had flaws in the actual card ..... Sometimes only the year (four digits) were read.
:) When the 1930s index was brought across for the EDP processing, some entries were lost/destroyed/partly destroyed.
:) It is a miracle that any info survived, as there has always been a funding issue.
:) If you find a date of birth coming up for the ECRs then that's because back in the 1930s those volunteers found it on the originals they were indexing. But it is often more reliable at present to check the familysearch historic records index transcriptions to obtain the exact dates.
Sorry for diverting off the OPs topic with these explanations.
Cheers, JM
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What interesting information JM and thanks to you and Toban, I have certainly learnt something today. :)
Kellymasters, the OP of this thread has not chatted with us for while despite having been online.
I wonder if our information continues to be of benefit in the inquiry. :)
Sue
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Thanks JM!
What knowledgable folks you have on the end of your telephone lines!
T
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What interesting information JM and thanks to you and Toban, I have certainly learnt something today. :)
Kellymasters, the OP of this thread has not chatted with us for while despite having been online.
I wonder if our information continues to be of benefit in the inquiry. :)
Sue
good morning
sorry will comment when home tonight. I have not been at my computer for a few days :). Have only seen comments on my phone. Loving and appreciating everyone's help.
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Mary and Thomas Plane had a set of twins Dorothy and Eric PLANE in 1906, so Mary had to have come to NZ sometime after that. I know she brought Dorothy (known in NZ on her marriage cert as Doris Jean PLANE) and my great great Grandfather Edward George Kitchener PLANE with her when she came.
I do not see a birth of twins in Victoria to the couple in 1906.
Where did you get the the information?
Births are registered in NSW ;)
Eric F PLANE b. 1906 ALBURY #31610
Dorothy J PLANE b. 1906 ALBURY #31611
Parents: Thomas H & Mary
Yes, at this stage i don't have birth certs for Eric or Dorothy. This might have to be on my list for after christmas :)
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...
Births are registered in NSW ;)
Eric F PLANE b. 1906 ALBURY #31610
Dorothy J PLANE b. 1906 ALBURY #31611
Parents: Thomas H & Mary
Deduced from NSW BDM online ..... Eric and Dorothy Born 31 Dec 1906
:) May I suggest if you are considering purchasing the birth certificates, that you order Official Transcriptions rather than the more expensive certificate. You will get the same information.
:) May I also suggest you get #31611 (Dorothy) as it is numbered next after Eric's. So, hopefully it will be for the younger of twins. NSW BDM birth registrations include details of the OLDER siblings .... so Dorothy's should include details for Eric..... :) (two registrations for the price of one !) It should also include the name and relationship of the person registering the birth, and details about Thomas H and Mary
Here's the NSW BDM live link to their Official Transcription Agents.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription
What to expect on a NSW birth registration:
:) Full given name/s, sex, date and place of birth (sometimes includes day of week, not just date and sometimes includes full street address/rural property name, not just town or village.)
:) Mum's details full name and maiden name (and perhaps any other former names), age, occupation, place of birth.
:) Dad's details - same depth of detail as for Mum .... so his full name, age, occupation, place of birth.
:) Date and place of parents' marriage.
:) Previous children of the relationship (name and age of living, number and gender of deceased).
:) Name and relationship of informant,
:) Name of Midwife/Doctor and any others present at the birth.
Cheers, JM
Wow, awesome suggestions, so i will purchase Dorothy's birth transcription then, and fingers crossed we get the information for both of them.
Thank you for your awesome help :)
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Was Thomas Henry PLANE's marriage to Mary GALLAGHER his second?
5846/1889 PLANE Thomas H
BILLMAN Maria E
MOAMA
A child in Victoria
PLANE George William Henry
Father Thomas Henry
Mother Maria Emily BILLMAN
Birth Place ROCHESTER
Year 1890
Reg. Number16926
Death of Maria
PLANE Maria
Father BILLMAN Wm
Mother Maria WHITE
Age 20
At Sandhurst
Year1890
Reg. Number 13779
Sue
Hi Sue,
Yes it was his second marriage. I dont know for sure, but maybe his first wife died in childbirth as it was the same year as the Thomas Henry PLANE's first son was born.
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Here is the death of Eric PLANE in NSW
3835/1907 PLANE Eric F
Parents Thomas H & Mary
At ALBURY
Sue
PS
Bear in mind the first birth to Thomas H PANE and Harriet HORTON was in 1908 in Victoria ::)
Hi Sue,
I have a copy of Eric's death, see attached
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Deduced from NSW BDM online ..... Eric and Dorothy Born 31 Dec 1906
Just wanted to point out that the twins' birth date is not stated on the NSW BDM site, nor can it be confirmed using confined search parameters on the date. While it is usually possible to find the exact date using a binary search method, but for some reason there's a handful of records that will be found regardless of the date range searched for (as long as it's within the right year). Unfortunately, the Plane twins fall into this category.
You can, however, use the binary search to deduce that Eric's date of death was 23 Apr 1907.
Cheers, :)
Toban
Hi Toban,
Thank you so much for that. I had no idea how to find the exact date like that. I have just attached a copy of Eric's death online
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Yes, regardless of what start and end dates you put in for them, a result will always be returned. You can confirm this if you select 'No' in the "Date of Event Range" box, thus allowing you to put in a specific date. Any date in 1906 put in that box will return a match for Eric Plane or Dorothy Plane. Furthermore, you can confirm the 23/04/1907 death date by putting that in the box when searching for deaths for Eric. Nothing is returned if another date is entered.
It's a weird anomaly, and I don't know the reason for it. Just that a small percentage of BDM entries are affected by it, usually in the early 1900s [of course, most of the early church records on there, baptisms, e.g., will also give a result for any date, presumably because the birth date is not necessarily given on a baptism]. :)
Also, something to keep in mind for the future, if a child is born on 31 December, their birth is probably going to be registered in the new year, and so will have a different registration year to their birth year.
T
You guys are awesome, at this stage I don't have any birth certs or birth transcriptions for Dorothy or Eric. As mentioned earlier I will get a transcription for Dorothy in the new year.
However I do have baptsims but they have confused me more :)
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I have made phone call.
:) It is important to remember that the basis for the current online index actually goes back to the volunteer work done in the 1930s.
:) It is also important to remember that entries prior to WWI are based on verbal information, particularly for births.
:) While the clerk at Albury Court House would be familiar with registering births, the parent will not be as knowledgeable.
:) The registrations were MEANT to be sent through to Sydney each quarter, so Oct, Nov, Dec were sent through in January. (Jan/Feb/March in April etc) (Some were sent annually, others were not sent at all.... and were NOT actually formally found until the 1980s when all court house registers were recalled to Sydney)
:) However, when the volunteers in the 1930s were preparing the indexes, some volunteers only wrote down the year of birth, and so the current index for these ones allows for ANY date in that YEAR ....
:) Back in the 1970s NSW BDM went EDP and the date of birth and year of registration were both keyed in. NOT all the cards 'worked' .... some were jammed in the process, some fell, some tore, some had flaws in the actual card ..... Sometimes only the year (four digits) were read.
:) When the 1930s index was brought across for the EDP processing, some entries were lost/destroyed/partly destroyed.
:) It is a miracle that any info survived, as there has always been a funding issue.
:) If you find a date of birth coming up for the ECRs then that's because back in the 1930s those volunteers found it on the originals they were indexing. But it is often more reliable at present to check the familysearch historic records index transcriptions to obtain the exact dates.
Sorry for diverting off the OPs topic with these explanations.
Cheers, JM
Please don't be sorry for diverting slightly off topic. This is information is helpful to me and others. Thank you so much for making the phone call and sharing information with us all. :) :)
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What interesting information JM and thanks to you and Toban, I have certainly learnt something today. :)
Kellymasters, the OP of this thread has not chatted with us for while despite having been online.
I wonder if our information continues to be of benefit in the inquiry. :)
Sue
Hi Sue,
I am learning heaps...thanks :) and its definitely helpful
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I'm not sure it's worth getting the birth certificates for the twins Eric and Dorothy, as you already have most of the information that's going to be provided on them from the baptism and Eric's death. The only additional information you'd get is the detail of the marriage and its previous issue, which you already know too.
Save yourself some $$$ ;D
The priest at the baptism or his clerk has entered the wrong name for the father at the twins. The BDM index confirms they are children of Thomas & Mary.
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...
Births are registered in NSW ;)
Eric F PLANE b. 1906 ALBURY #31610
Dorothy J PLANE b. 1906 ALBURY #31611
Parents: Thomas H & Mary
Deduced from NSW BDM online ..... Eric and Dorothy Born 31 Dec 1906
:) May I suggest if you are considering purchasing the birth certificates, that you order Official Transcriptions rather than the more expensive certificate. You will get the same information.
:) May I also suggest you get #31611 (Dorothy) as it is numbered next after Eric's. So, hopefully it will be for the younger of twins. NSW BDM birth registrations include details of the OLDER siblings .... so Dorothy's should include details for Eric..... :) (two registrations for the price of one !) It should also include the name and relationship of the person registering the birth, and details about Thomas H and Mary
Here's the NSW BDM live link to their Official Transcription Agents.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription
What to expect on a NSW birth registration:
:) Full given name/s, sex, date and place of birth (sometimes includes day of week, not just date and sometimes includes full street address/rural property name, not just town or village.)
:) Mum's details full name and maiden name (and perhaps any other former names), age, occupation, place of birth.
:) Dad's details - same depth of detail as for Mum .... so his full name, age, occupation, place of birth.
:) Date and place of parents' marriage.
:) Previous children of the relationship (name and age of living, number and gender of deceased).
:) Name and relationship of informant,
:) Name of Midwife/Doctor and any others present at the birth.
Cheers, JM
Couldn't wait, just ordered online. Thank you :)
I will let you know the result :)
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I'm not sure it's worth getting the birth certificates for the twins Eric and Dorothy, as you already have most of the information that's going to be provided on them from the baptism and Eric's death. The only additional information you'd get is the detail of the marriage and its previous issue, which you already know too.
Save yourself some $$$ ;D
The priest at the baptism or his clerk has entered the wrong name for the father at the twins. The BDM index confirms they are children of Thomas & Mary.
Whoops, was impatient and just ordered it :)
Ah well......
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:P Hehehehe, oh well... Let us know what it says!
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However I do have baptsims but they have confused me more :)
The priest at the baptism or his clerk has entered the wrong name for the father at the twins. The BDM index confirms they are children of Thomas & Mary.
The only thing that the BDM index shows is that the person registering the births has stated the father as Thomas PLANE. If the mother registered the births then this was the most respectable option. Life can be difficult when you are married to one person and having the children of another.
I think their father was George Edward HEFFERNAN. I also have to admit to having doubts about the paternity of Edward George as well. ::)
Debra :D
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:P Hehehehe, oh well... Let us know what it says!
I will :)
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However I do have baptsims but they have confused me more :)
The priest at the baptism or his clerk has entered the wrong name for the father at the twins. The BDM index confirms they are children of Thomas & Mary.
The only thing that the BDM index shows is that the person registering the births has stated the father as Thomas PLANE. If the mother registered the births then this was the most respectable option. Life can be difficult when you are married to one person and having the children of another.
I think their father was George Edward HEFFERNAN. I also have to admit to having doubts about the paternity of Edward George as well. ::)
Debra :D
It does make you wonder.....:)
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The priest at the baptism or his clerk has entered the wrong name for the father at the twins. The BDM index confirms they are children of Thomas & Mary.
Well, it strikes me as a strange co-incidence that the clergyman's "error" on the certificates of baptism is showing the two forenames of HEFFERNAN (George Edward) and the surname of Mary at that time PLANE. I agree with Debra.
A sort of merging of the two. ;)
I cannot understand why the registration and the baptism have different details.
Sue
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There are times when it is sensible to obtain both the civil registration and the Church record .... and this is likely to be one of those times :)
:) :)
I wonder if the Priest made any margin notes on his local parish register....
Cheers, JM
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The priest at the baptism or his clerk has entered the wrong name for the father at the twins. The BDM index confirms they are children of Thomas & Mary.
Well, it strikes me as a strange co-incidence that the clergyman's "error" on the certificates of baptism is showing the two forenames of HEFFERNAN (George Edward) and the surname of Mary at that time PLANE.
A sort of merging of the two. ;)
I cannot understand why the registration and the baptism have different details.
Sue
I know....confusing :-\
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There are times when it is sensible to obtain both the civil registration and the Church record .... and this is likely to be one of those times :)
:) :)
I wonder if the Priest made any margin notes on his local parish register....
Cheers, JM
Newbie so apologies if this sounds silly but do i just email and ask for those? ::)
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No, I would always suggest that you wait until you have the civil registrations (official transcriptions will suffice), and then you ponder, and then you remember that civil registrations are Public Records, and Church Records are not. So then, you wonder if it would be worthwhile contacting the local Church again, and providing them with a photocopy of the civil registration and asking them, at their convenience to check if there's any remarks on their parish register, perhaps outside of the normal headings, perhaps a margin note, that may explain the differences. The Church is under no formal regulation to provide you with the information and until you have the civil registration at hand, there's nothing but an index entry to provide to the Parish to support your enquiry.
If I may comment, I suspect you will find that in that pre WWI era that it was often far more significant to the general population to tell the truth to the Parish priest rather than to the public servant at the local court house....
PS, we were all newbies once. Never apologise for asking a question when you don't know the answer. If you don't ask the question, then you could be a newbie for ever .... ::) ::)
Cheers, JM
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Kellymasters, have you researched to locate and identify Henry GALLAGHER, the children's baptismal sponsor?
Sue
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No, I would always suggest that you wait until you have the civil registrations (official transcriptions will suffice), and then you ponder, and then you remember that civil registrations are Public Records, and Church Records are not. So then, you wonder if it would be worthwhile contacting the local Church again, and providing them with a photocopy of the civil registration and asking them, at their convenience to check if there's any remarks on their parish register, perhaps outside of the normal headings, perhaps a margin note, that may explain the differences. The Church is under no formal regulation to provide you with the information and until you have the civil registration at hand, there's nothing but an index entry to provide to the Parish to support your enquiry.
If I may comment, I suspect you will find that in that pre WWI era that it was often far more significant to the general population to tell the truth to the Parish priest rather than to the public servant at the local court house....
PS, we were all newbies once. Never apologise for asking a question when you don't know the answer. If you don't ask the question, then you could be a newbie for ever .... ::) ::)
Cheers, JM
Great. Thank you. I will do as you ahve suggested :)
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Kellymasters, have you researched to locate and identify Henry GALLAGHER, the children's baptismal sponsor?
Sue
Hi Sue
Not yet :)
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I can't believe I didn't recognise the Heffernan/Plane father-forename swap in the baptismal register! That's what happens when you try and do genealogy sleep deprived!
So, I am going to agree with the thoughts that perhaps Mr. Heffernan is the father of the twins, and that Mary registered them officially with Thomas Plane as the father as he was her lawful husband at the time. The possibility of Edward G. K. also being Heffernan's son is strong, and it would give you a pretty solid explanation as to why only he and Dorothy/Doris accompanied their mother and Heffernan to N.Z. - they were his kids. The elder three (Fred, Charles & Hetta) all belonged to Plane, so they stayed in Aus. (Incidentally, did Edward and Doris keep the name Plane in NZ, or did they use Heffernan?)
Plane seems to be 'officially' shacked up with Harriet Horton by 1908, when their child is born and registered with them as parents, however Harriet's illegitimate child born in 1903 (Arthur Raymond Horton, #2834) later took the name Plane as his own, and on his death certificate Thomas Plane is listed as the father. This seems to me that Thomas and Harriet were together in 1903, so it stands to reason that Mary and Heffernan could be together by 1906.
Now, I am heading Albury way just after Christmas, I can see if I can get a look at the registers of St. Patrick's if you like, and tell you whether there's anything of interest there.
Toban
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Toban....i am at work but will respond tonight :)
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Oh, I have a present for you! I had done some research around Elmore a little while ago and thought I'd have a look at a couple of the certificates I'd bought to see if there was anyone of interest to you on them, and who do I find but Arthur Raymond Horton, Harriet's son who was claimed by Thomas Plane!!!!! See attached.
Arthur was born in March 1903, so would've been conceived May/June 1902.
Edward was born in Sept 1902, so would've been conceived around New Year's 1902.
While it's obviously not impossible that Thomas & Mary split between New Year's and May of '02 the timing could indicate that indeed Edward belongs to Mr. Heffernan...... If you have male-line descendants of both Edward Plane and Francis Heffernan, a Y-DNA would confirm this.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!! ;D
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Kellymasters, have you researched to locate and identify Henry GALLAGHER, the children's baptismal sponsor?
Sue
I would say he is Mary's brother, b. 1888 in Kyneton #21860. Their parents were Charles Gallagher and Abby Callaghan
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Perhaps Mary was fond enough of brother Henry GALLAGHER to name her daughter after him... Henrietta ;)
She was born in 1900, being 2 years in September 1902 on Edward George Kitchener's birth certificate.
Henrietta's second given name was Jane, which of course was Thomas PLANE's mother's name.
This may be a good clue that Henrietta was the child of Thomas and that the split happened as Toban deduces, after her birth.
Sue
ADDING.
I have looked at the third given name for Henrietta which appears to be Abenia or similar and I wonder whether it was an attempt to name her after Mary's mother Abby/Abbey/Abigail
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An Abenia Mary Callaghan (1876–1934) was the daughter of Patrick Callaghan and Margaret Sullivan, of East Melbourne. She is of the right age to be Mary Gallagher Plane Heffernan's cousin.....
T
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Kellymasters, have you researched to locate and identify Henry GALLAGHER, the children's baptismal sponsor?
Sue
Hi Sue,
I think he is Mary's grandfather, Mary's maiden name was GALLAGHER :) :) :), haven't yet researched this generation. I have been too busy trying to work out Thomas Henry PLANE and Mary GALLAGHER, and then Mary and George Edward HEFFERNAN and their children. AND that is defeinitely been keeping me busy :) :)
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I can't believe I didn't recognise the Heffernan/Plane father-forename swap in the baptismal register! That's what happens when you try and do genealogy sleep deprived!
So, I am going to agree with the thoughts that perhaps Mr. Heffernan is the father of the twins, and that Mary registered them officially with Thomas Plane as the father as he was her lawful husband at the time. The possibility of Edward G. K. also being Heffernan's son is strong, and it would give you a pretty solid explanation as to why only he and Dorothy/Doris accompanied their mother and Heffernan to N.Z. - they were his kids. The elder three (Fred, Charles & Hetta) all belonged to Plane, so they stayed in Aus. (Incidentally, did Edward and Doris keep the name Plane in NZ, or did they use Heffernan?)
Plane seems to be 'officially' shacked up with Harriet Horton by 1908, when their child is born and registered with them as parents, however Harriet's illegitimate child born in 1903 (Arthur Raymond Horton, #2834) later took the name Plane as his own, and on his death certificate Thomas Plane is listed as the father. This seems to me that Thomas and Harriet were together in 1903, so it stands to reason that Mary and Heffernan could be together by 1906.
Now, I am heading Albury way just after Christmas, I can see if I can get a look at the registers of St. Patrick's if you like, and tell you whether there's anything of interest there.
Toban
The swapping of names on the baptism record is what got me so confused. I never expected that, and it was then that I started to wonder......
Based on your thoughts, I can see why Dorothy, and Edward came to NZ with their mother. Edward grew up believing his surname (and i am guessing Dorothy too) was HEFFERNAN. He is even on electoral rolls as Edward George HEFFERNAN. The story goes (from a great aunt who passed away earlier this year, that when Edward went to get married he had to produce a full birth cert and that is when he found out his name was PLANE.....
Yes, please feel free to look deeper into this when you are in Albury if you have time. It would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks :) :) :)
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Oh, I have a present for you! I had done some research around Elmore a little while ago and thought I'd have a look at a couple of the certificates I'd bought to see if there was anyone of interest to you on them, and who do I find but Arthur Raymond Horton, Harriet's son who was claimed by Thomas Plane!!!!! See attached.
Arthur was born in March 1903, so would've been conceived May/June 1902.
Edward was born in Sept 1902, so would've been conceived around New Year's 1902.
While it's obviously not impossible that Thomas & Mary split between New Year's and May of '02 the timing could indicate that indeed Edward belongs to Mr. Heffernan...... If you have male-line descendants of both Edward Plane and Francis Heffernan, a Y-DNA would confirm this.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!! ;D
WOW, thank you for the christmas present...... Merry Christmas to you too. :) :) :)
Hmmmmm Y-DNA testing, this is something I know nothing about....but could definitely be something to look into. Definitely know of descendants of Edward Plane. I don't know the descendants of Francis so am sure of Francis at the moment .....
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Kellymasters, have you researched to locate and identify Henry GALLAGHER, the children's baptismal sponsor?
Sue
Maybe....
I would say he is Mary's brother, b. 1888 in Kyneton #21860. Their parents were Charles Gallagher and Abby Callaghan
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Perhaps Mary was fond enough of brother Henry GALLAGHER to name her daughter after him... Henrietta ;)
She was born in 1900, being 2 years in September 1902 on Edward George Kitchener's birth certificate.
Henrietta's second given name was Jane, which of course was Thomas PLANE's mother's name.
This may be a good clue that Henrietta was the child of Thomas and that the split happened as Toban deduces, after her birth.
Sue
ADDING.
I have looked at the third given name for Henrietta which appears to be Abenia or similar and I wonder whether it was an attempt to name her after Mary's mother Abby/Abbey/Abigail
WOW, thanks Sue, could be......
My head is spinning, its all so much to think about, understand, try and prove and think about some more isn't it? :)
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An Abenia Mary Callaghan (1876–1934) was the daughter of Patrick Callaghan and Margaret Sullivan, of East Melbourne. She is of the right age to be Mary Gallagher Plane Heffernan's cousin.....
T
All new information, thanks :)
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Back from Albury; no further information in the baptismal register of St. Pat's for the Plane twins.
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Back from Albury; no further information in the baptismal register of St. Pat's for the Plane twins.
Thanks for looking. I really appreciate it :)
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No worries! Happy to help ;D