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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: cohenvernonportner on Monday 07 December 15 01:17 GMT (UK)
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If any one has information on any of these family names Vernon, Portner, Cohen please contact me
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Any particular dates or names?
You could also check RootsChat's Surnames Interest Table.
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Underneath the heading "Your Tools" you fill find "Surname Interests".
Click on that, and then "Quick Search".
Surnames are listed by initial letter.
While you're there, why not add your own interests?
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Any particular dates or names?
You could also check RootsChat's Surnames Interest Table.
Scroll down to the bottom of any RootsChat page.
Underneath the heading "Your Tools" you fill find "Surname Interests".
Click on that, and then "Quick Search".
Surnames are listed by initial letter.
While you're there, why not add your own interests?
I have found this link for the portner and cohen marriage this is definately the right family but need further back than this one >
Name: Joseph J Cohen
Event Type: Marriage Registration
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year: 1927
Registration District: Manchester North
County: Lancashire
Event Place: Manchester North, Lancashire, England
Spouse Name (available after 1911): Portner
Volume: 8D
Page: 1400
Line Number: 99
Citing this Record:
"England and Wales Marriage Registration Index, 1837-2005," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZB-L8NM : accessed 7 December 2015), Joseph J Cohen and null, 1927; from “England & Wales Marriages, 1837-2005,” database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Marriage Registration, Manchester North, Lancashire, England, General Register Office, Southport, England.
I also found these 4 records and I think one of these must be him
http://search.findmypast.com/results/world-records?firstname=joseph&lastname=cohen&keywordsplace=manchester&sourcecategory=military%20service%20utf0026%20conflict
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Hi
FreeBMD carries this . . . . .
Marriage Jun 1927 Manchester N. 8d 1400
Cohen Joseph J Portner
Jacob Joseph Portner
PORTNER Betsy Jacob
PORTNER Betsy Cohen
That should may give fathers name(s)?
Ray
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Hi
FreeBMD carries this . . . . .
Marriage Jun 1927 Manchester N. 8d 1400
Cohen Joseph J Portner
Jacob Joseph Portner
PORTNER Betsy Jacob
PORTNER Betsy Cohen
That should may give fathers name(s)?
Ray
Thank you , where do I look for the fathers name?
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Hi
Order the marriage certificate (if it is not online somewhere)
This may also be worthy of noting . . . . .
Birth 1902 QJun Prestwich 8d 419 Betsy Portner
Ray
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Hi
Order the marriage certificate (if it is not online somewhere)
This may also be worthy of noting . . . . .
Birth 1902 QJun Prestwich 8d 419 Betsy Portner
Is there anywhere that would hold any old photographs of these persons?
Ray
Thank you Ray very helpful
I heard the family may have been from Russia so it must have been even further back than betsey if she was born in England
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Hi
1911 gives you that answer.
Copyright says that you must do the look-up yourself.
Ray
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Hi
1911 gives you that answer.
Copyright says that you must do the look-up yourself.
Ray
Thank you
J.J.Cohen is believed to have died maybe when he was only aged approx 30 yrs old, not old but do not know how he died.
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Hi
1911 gives you that answer.
Copyright says that you must do the look-up yourself.
Ray
Thank you
J.J.Cohen is believed to have died maybe when he was only aged approx 30 yrs old, not old but do not know how he died.
Betsey Portner had siblings in Manchester.
I am led to believe that at least two of the siblings lived together until old age and never married or had children.I do not have confirmation of this yet
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As close as I can see so far . . . . .
Death Sep 1948 Heywood 10c 320 / Joseph J Cohen ( 49y at death )
Returning to the marriage, the other "entry" was for Joseph Jacob.
Could he have been known as surname Jacob>
OR
His name Joseph Jacob Cohen?
Ray
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As close as I can see so far . . . . .
Death Sep 1948 Heywood 10c 320 / Joseph J Cohen ( 49y at death )
Returning to the marriage, the other "entry" was for Joseph Jacob.
Could he have been known as surname Jacob>
OR
His name Joseph Jacob Cohen?
Ray
I think he went by the name of Jack Cohen but registered as joseph jacob cohen
He was a joiner/carpenter I do not know what he died from . I am told he only had one child but I think it is possible there were more children somewhere from that family tree
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The 1927 Cohen/Portner marriage according to Lancashire BMDs
Took place at...
South Broughton Synagogue, Manchester 523/3/11
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
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The 1927 Cohen/Portner marriage according to Lancashire BMDs
Took place at...
South Broughton Synagogue, Manchester 523/3/11
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk/
yes thank you this is the correct people
I am trying to find out if any of J.J.Cohens siblings if he had any or betsys siblings ever had children where would the best place to start looking?
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If you have access to them the 1901 and 1911 census records will help you with that. :)
But as said before you will still need the marriage cert to make sure you have the correct family. ;)
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If you have access to them the 1901 and 1911 census records will help you with that. :)
But as said before you will still need the marriage cert to make sure you have the correct family. ;)
thank you it is 100 percent the correct family I will find out about record access
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I have been sent a PM about this family and I have no idea why as I know nothing about them.
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I have been sent a PM about this family and I have no idea why as I know nothing about them.
Who sent you the Pm?
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I found this record in one of databases on JewishGen.
Justin
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I found this record in one of databases on JewishGen.
Justin
thank you for this it gives me some more names to look at
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Hi
Rue(BEN)jamin ?????
Recorded as Benjamin coz known as Ben ?
Similar to Jacob/Jack
Ray
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Hi
Rue(BEN)jamin ?????
Recorded as Benjamin coz known as Ben ?
Similar to Jacob/Jack
Ray
No wonder I could not find him! He had changed his name.
So I am looking for family of Ben Portner and Hillel Cohen
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Hi Ray,
I was also wondering whether Rueben P. with the daughter Betsy was 'our man'. Her age and his occupation match. And Rueben did not sign his own name on the census return.
I would speculate that Portner was an Anglicisation of the Russian surname PORTNOY, which means tailor in Russian (= kravitz in Polish) and was documented in many places throughout the Jewish Pale of Settlement including Vilnius.
Justin
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I see that the death of a 70-year-old Reuben Portner was registered in Salford in Q4 1940.
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Hi Ray,
I was also wondering whether Rueben P. with the daughter Betsy was 'our man'. Her age and his occupation match. And Rueben did not sign his own name on the census return.
I would speculate that Portner was an Anglicisation of the Russian surname PORTNOY, which means tailor in Russian (= kravitz in Polish) and was documented in many places throughout the Jewish Pale of Settlement including Vilnius.
Justin
Great information
Appreciated
I want to research this family tree further
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Hi Ray,
I was also wondering whether Rueben P. with the daughter Betsy was 'our man'. Her age and his occupation match. And Rueben did not sign his own name on the census return.
I would speculate that Portner was an Anglicisation of the Russian surname PORTNOY, which means tailor in Russian (= kravitz in Polish) and was documented in many places throughout the Jewish Pale of Settlement including Vilnius.
Justin
So betsy could have also been known as peshe/pesha portner or pesha portnoy?
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Hi Ray,
I was also wondering whether Rueben P. with the daughter Betsy was 'our man'. Her age and his occupation match. And Rueben did not sign his own name on the census return.
I would speculate that Portner was an Anglicisation of the Russian surname PORTNOY, which means tailor in Russian (= kravitz in Polish) and was documented in many places throughout the Jewish Pale of Settlement including Vilnius.
Justin
So betsy could have also been known as peshe/pesha portner or pesha portnoy?
I have found BEN portner married anna -anna portner was born approx 1869
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Hi JustinL
Is there a (more) anglicised version of the name "Hillel" ?
Also
There is an interesting looking family in Cheetham N.Manchester 1901
Solomon Cohen 39 Tailor bRussia
Sarah 39
Abraham 16
Louis 14
Rachael 12
Marks 6
Fanny 4
Jack (def NOT Jock) 1
RG13 / 3767 / 107 / Page 12
58 Mouton Street, Cheetham,
Ray
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Hi JustinL
Is there a (more) anglicised version of the name "Hillel" ?
Also
There is an interesting looking family in Cheetham N.Manchester 1901
Solomon Cohen 39 Tailor bRussia
Sarah 39
Abraham 16
Louis 14
Rachael 12
Marks 6
Fanny 4
Jack (def NOT Jock) 1
RG13 / 3767 / 107 / Page 12
58 Mouton Street, Cheetham,
Ray
so this could be joseph jack/jacob cohens family perhaps?
the age for jack would be right
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. . . . . and Cheetham as well.
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Hillel and Solomon are completely unrelated given names.
Hillel may have been anglicised to Harry or something similar. However, the name appears often enough in BMD records.
A 68-year-old Hillel Cohen died in Stepney in 1936.
Does anybody have access to any directories from this period?
Justin
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Hillel and Solomon are completely unrelated given names.
Hillel may have been anglicised to Harry or something similar. However, the name appears often enough in BMD records.
A 68-year-old Hillel Cohen died in Stepney in 1936.
Does anybody have access to any directories from this period?
Justin
It is possible they went to stepney as their son had died at aged 49 in Manchester so maybe they moved away
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Kelly’s Directory of Manchester, Salford and Suburbs (1929) lists the following:
Fletcher, Mrs. Frieda, 23 Caroline Street, Lower Broughton
Portman Reuben, tailor, 13 Suffolk Street, Lower Broughton
Portner, Hyman, tailor, (Olinsky & Portner) 7 Dantzic Street
Compare the addresses in bold with those on the marriage record. I think we can conclude that Betsy's father was officially known as Reuben Portner.
Joseph was staying with his friend at the time of his wedding.
London directories for the years 1921 and 1934 list 'H. Cohen, furrier' at two different addresses.
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Kelly’s Directory of Manchester, Salford and Suburbs (1929) lists the following:
Fletcher, Mrs. Frieda, 23 Caroline Street, Lower Broughton
Portman Reuben, tailor, 13 Suffolk Street, Lower Broughton
Portner, Hyman, tailor, (Olinsky & Portner) 7 Dantzic Street
Compare the addresses in bold with those on the marriage record. I think we can conclude that Betsy's father was officially known as Reuben Portner.
This names Reuben as Portman though not Portner ?
Hyman is his son
Joseph was staying with his friend at the time of his wedding.
Oh great thankyou for this, previously someone mentioned Reuben was married to a lady called Anne,
I did not recognise the name but the name Frieda I do.
Does this mean he was married twice? or the first name was wrong? But the childrens names were correct.
https://familysearch.org/search/record/results?count=20&englishSubcountryName=Lancashire&query=%2Bsurname%3Aolinski~%20%2Bany_place%3Amanchester~%20%2Brecord_country%3AEngland%20%2Brecord_subcountry%3A
I have found this information from a tailor named Olinsky that came to Manchester and opened up Burtons He is from Russia but no mention of Portner I think this may be the wrong person and perhaps the correct one is a smaller shop in Manchester Ready to Wear Suits. In 1903 Meshe David Olinsky from Lithuania opened a tailoring business, Cross Tailoring, on Holywell Street, now somewhere under the car park. One of his ideas was to sell ready made suits; another was to change his name, and his company’s, to Montague Burton. Montague hit on a good balance of quality, cost, and price, and started opening other stores, beginning with one in Mansfield. Eventually there were over 400 Burton’s. However, Burton’s moved their manufacturing, management and warehousing to Leeds and Manchester, leaving Chesterfield behind. You need a bigger population of customers to maximise Burton’s idea, so he naturally moved to where the customers and suppliers were, but he got a good start in Chesterfield.
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JustinL
Morning!
"London directories for the years 1921 and 1934 list 'H. Cohen, furrier' at two different addresses."
What were those addresses?
Ray
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Morning Ray,
1921 Fore Street, EC2
1934 Godliman Street, EC4
Clutching at straws I suspect.
No, I did not believe that Joseph did not marry twice. His witness at his wedding was Isaac Jack Fletcher, whom I surmise was somehow connected to Frieda Fletcher.
Update: Isaac J Fletcher married Freda Goldberg in Stockport in 1923.
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JustinL
Morning!
"London directories for the years 1921 and 1934 list 'H. Cohen, furrier' at two different addresses."
What were those addresses?
Ray
I have this info- but this lists an Anne not a freida but the childrens names seem correct? Could this be his sister? Or are there two very similar named families in that area at that time,
The name Frieda has been mentioned to me before so I know Frieda is Betsys relative somewhere
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Yup, clutching at straws . . . . .
Hillel on marriage cert was a furrier ?
R
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Quote from: Gibel on Yesterday at 12:30
I have been sent a PM about this family and I have no idea why as I know nothing about them.
Who sent you the Pm?
The PM came from cohenvernonportner
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Quote from: Gibel on Yesterday at 12:30
I have been sent a PM about this family and I have no idea why as I know nothing about them.
Who sent you the Pm?
The PM came from cohenvernonportner
Gibel I have checked my sent folder, It was sent by mistake to you on a thread you were in.I am new and clicked reply on wrong part.Sorry
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Do you think any of this fits in?
Harris Cohen was born circa 1835, at birth place.
Harris married Hanna Cohen.
They had 5 children: Morris Cohen, Rueben Cohen and 3 other children.
Harris Cohen was born circa 1835, at birth place.
Harris married Hannah Cohen.
They had 5 children: Phillip Cohen, Reuben Cohen and 3 other children.
Harris Cohen, 1834 - 1884
Harris Cohen was born in 1834.
Harris married Hannah Cohen.
Hannah was born in 1837.
They had 5 children: Mark Cohen, Reuben Cohen and 3 other children.
Harris passed away in 1884, at age 50.
oh no -think I got confused Harris would have been a Portner not a Cohen ?
portner
Harris
Fanny
Betsy - married a Cohen
Hyman
Ada
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Ray,
Yes, Hillel Cohen was a furrier according to the marriage record. See my reply #18.
Justin
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Surname Forenames YearOfDeath Cemetery
PORTNER Ann 1974 Crumpsall View Details
PORTNER Annie 1948 Blackley View Details
PORTNER BABY 1968 Blackley View Details
PORTNER Olga 1965 Crumpsall View Details
PORTNER Philip 2003 Crumpsall View Details
PORTNER Reuben 1940 Blackley View Details
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Ah ha, so you have found the MDCS website too.
You will also find:
Joseph Jacob Cohen 1948 Rainsough
Betsy Cohen 1946 Rainsough
Keva Portman 1946 Blackley
Esther-Leah Portman 1975 Blackley
I have emailed the organisation to ask whether the detailed records will include the full Hebrew name of the deceased.
Are you inclined to fork out for the expensive credits?
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What does 1946 and 1948 mean next to Betsy and J,j, Cohen mean? as I do not think the dates are correct if they are death dates?
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Is there anywhere I could find a picture? of either the people or the graves stones?
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They are the death dates as recorded in the MDCS database.
The only way to confirm that this couple are yours is to take the plunge and buy some credits.
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It is possible that the detailed record includes photos.
I'm hoping it does, so that we can determine the full Hebrew names of the deceased.
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I was given this earlier in this topic
Death Sep 1948 Heywood 10c 320 / Joseph J Cohen ( 49y at death )
Which seems correct but the Betsy death 2 years later cannot be correct unless it was another child we did not know about as the mother betsy lived longer than the 40's
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Here is a possible Portner/Portnoy connection
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/rd/0c1cf0b6-a6b2-468d-9a9d-7686ff6ba863
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The death record describes Joseph Jacob Cohen as the husband of:
Bessie Cohen, 32 Wensley Road, Kersal, Salford 7
who died on Bury New Road in Prestwich on 4 Aug 1948.
Wensley Road is not too far from 3 Richmond Avenue, where Reuben and Annie Portner died.
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I was told J.Cohen died young but was led to believe Betsy was around for a long time, a long time after he had passed anyhow.
Yet these records would show she would have died a month before him and I am wondering why there are two different addresses for them if they were married.Did they split up?
Do we have any idea why they both died so young?
Thank you for your help
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New information on the vernon side is that they may have been previously known as valenskys
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The death record for JJC merely reports that he did not die at home. He died while on Bury New Road. Maybe he simply had a heart attack, or was hit by a car. It is hardly a surprise that someone who died that young, did not die at home. My mother's father died of a heart attack at the same age on the platform at St. Alban's rail station.
Betsy Portner's birth was registered in Q2 1902. Here are two possible deaths for her:
Bessie Cohen, bom ? Mar 1902, died Q3 1970 (death registered in Bury)
Bessie Cohen, born 18 Jan 1902, died Q1 1981 (death registered in Manchester)
Either one is a very long time after JJC's death.
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A quick look on FreeBMD throws up:
Myer Valensky, b. Q2 1921 Manchester
Eric Valensky, b. Q1 1923 Salford
Their mother's maiden name was Brown.
Eric Vernon, who died in Manchester in Aug 2000, was born on 6 Jan 1923, i.e. Q1 1923
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The death record for JJC merely reports that he did not die at home. He died while on Bury New Road. Maybe he simply had a heart attack, or was hit by a car. It is hardly a surprise that someone who died that young, did not die at home. My mother's father died of a heart attack at the same age on the platform at St. Alban's rail station.
Betsy Portner's birth was registered in Q2 1902. Here are two possible deaths for her:
Bessie Cohen, bom ? Mar 1902, died Q3 1970 (death registered in Bury)
Bessie Cohen, born 18 Jan 1902, died Q1 1981 (death registered in Manchester)
Either one is a very long time after JJC's death.
Thank you for clarifying I thought you meant he was at a different address on Bury New Road.
So I need to find out which is the correct Bessie as the gravestone info from earlier was>
Joseph Jacob Cohen 1948 Rainsough
Betsy Cohen 1946 Rainsough
which does not correspond with what we have now. There are so many Bessies and betsys and jacks/jacobs and josephs all in the same area it is difficult!
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A quick look on FreeBMD throws up:
Myer Valensky, b. Q2 1921 Manchester
Eric Valensky, b. Q1 1923 Salford
Their mother's maiden name was Brown.
Was Browns first name henrietta/ hetty?
So perhaps Myer is the brother of Eric , Can we find out any more about Myer?
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http://munksroll.rcplondon.ac.uk/Biography/Details/6649
Ben and ann? But only 3 children ten grandchildren
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Henrietta Brown married Samuel Vellensky in the South Broughton Synagogue in Q2 1920.
Samuel was born in Q1 1893 in Manchester to Hyman Levy Vellensky (b. 1866 Poland, d. 1927), a tailor, and Sara née Levy (b. 1868 London, d. 1929).
Hyman and Sarah had married in Manchester's Great Synagogue in Q1 1887.
I have also found the following two death records:
Samuel Vernon, b. 26 Feb 1893, d. Q1 1974 Manchester
Henrietta Vernon, b. 15 Feb 1895, d. Q1 1974 Manchester
There's more to come on Hyman.
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Henrietta Brown married Samuel Vellensky in the South Broughton Synagogue in Q2 1920.
Samuel was born in Q1 1893 in Manchester to Hyman Levy Vellensky (b. 1866 Poland, d. 1927), a tailor, and Sara née Levy (b. 1868 London, d. 1929).
Hyman and Sarah had married in Manchester's Great Synagogue in Q1 1887.
I have also found the following two death records:
Samuel Vernon, b. 26 Feb 1893, d. Q1 1974 Manchester
Henrietta Vernon, b. 15 Feb 1895, d. Q1 1974 Manchester
There's more to come on Hyman.
So now there is a new name-great work please continue
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Any particular dates or names?
You could also check RootsChat's Surnames Interest Table.
Scroll down to the bottom of any RootsChat page.
Underneath the heading "Your Tools" you fill find "Surname Interests".
Click on that, and then "Quick Search".
Surnames are listed by initial letter.
While you're there, why not add your own interests?
I have found this link for the portner and cohen marriage this is definately the right family but need further back than this one >
Name: Joseph J Cohen
Event Type: Marriage Registration
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year: 1927
Registration District: Manchester North
County: Lancashire
Event Place: Manchester North, Lancashire, England
Spouse Name (available after 1911): Portner
Volume: 8D
Page: 1400
Line Number: 99
Citing this Record:
"England and Wales Marriage Registration Index, 1837-2005," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZB-L8NM : accessed 7 December 2015), Joseph J Cohen and null, 1927; from “England & Wales Marriages, 1837-2005,” database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Marriage Registration, Manchester North, Lancashire, England, General Register Office, Southport, England.
I also found these 4 records and I think one of these must be him
http://search.findmypast.com/results/world-records?firstname=joseph&lastname=cohen&keywordsplace=manchester&sourcecategory=military%20service%20utf0026%20conflict
I suggest that you purchase a copy of that marriage certificate, if you want to trace back to their parents.
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Any particular dates or names?
You could also check RootsChat's Surnames Interest Table.
Scroll down to the bottom of any RootsChat page.
Underneath the heading "Your Tools" you fill find "Surname Interests".
Click on that, and then "Quick Search".
Surnames are listed by initial letter.
While you're there, why not add your own interests?
I have found this link for the portner and cohen marriage this is definately the right family but need further back than this one >
Name: Joseph J Cohen
Event Type: Marriage Registration
Registration Quarter: Apr-May-Jun
Registration Year: 1927
Registration District: Manchester North
County: Lancashire
Event Place: Manchester North, Lancashire, England
Spouse Name (available after 1911): Portner
Volume: 8D
Page: 1400
Line Number: 99
Citing this Record:
"England and Wales Marriage Registration Index, 1837-2005," database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVZB-L8NM : accessed 7 December 2015), Joseph J Cohen and null, 1927; from “England & Wales Marriages, 1837-2005,” database, findmypast (http://www.findmypast.com : 2012); citing Marriage Registration, Manchester North, Lancashire, England, General Register Office, Southport, England.
I also found these 4 records and I think one of these must be him
http://search.findmypast.com/results/world-records?firstname=joseph&lastname=cohen&keywordsplace=manchester&sourcecategory=military%20service%20utf0026%20conflict
I suggest that you purchase a copy of that marriage certificate, if you want to trace back to their parents.
Justin 9above ) has already shared the details thanks
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The attached summarises my discoveries to date. We are now confronted with numerous brick walls.
Marks Vilensky most likely came from the region between Vilnius and the Polish city of Suwalki, although there were also occurrences of the in other regions of Poland in the 1840s.
Based on naming patterns (i.e. names passed down the generations), I am pursuing the theory that the Portner family was closely related to the Portnoi/Portnoy family of Vasilishki, formerly in the Vilna governorate of the Russia Empire, now in northern Belarus. The fact that Ruben and Annie gave one of their sons the unusual name Keva indicates a strong link to Kivel Rubin Portnoi, b. 1822. The latter could have easily fathered a son at the age 50-ish, and could easily have been dead by the time Rubin and Annie named Keva in 1896. It is also feasible that Rubin was Kivel's grandson. We urgently need to establish the name of Rubin's father.
As has been mentioned, you need to order a couple of marriage certificates (Vellensky-Levy in 1887 and Brown-Brown in 1884) in order to be able to progress.
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The attached summarises my discoveries to date. We are now confronted with numerous brick walls.
Marks Vilensky most likely came from the region between Vilnius and the Polish city of Suwalki, although there were also occurrences of the in other regions of Poland in the 1840s.
Based on naming patterns (i.e. names passed down the generations), I am pursuing the theory that the Portner family was closely related to the Portnoi/Portnoy family of Vasilishki, formerly in the Vilna governorate of the Russia Empire, now in northern Belarus. The fact that Ruben and Annie gave one of their sons the unusual name Keva indicates a strong link to Kivel Rubin Portnoi, b. 1822. The latter could have easily fathered a son at the age 50-ish, and could easily have been dead by the time Rubin and Annie named Keva in 1896. It is also feasible that Rubin was Kivel's grandson. We urgently need to establish the name of Rubin's father.
As has been mentioned, you need to order a couple of marriage certificates (Vellensky-Levy in 1887 and Brown-Brown in 1884) in order to be able to progress.
AMAZING thank you :D who is the brown brown certificate i need to order?
Henriettas parents?
And levy was married to a levy were they related?
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I have found a picture of Keva!
I do not have an account I will have to join to make it bigger so I can view I think
http://www.geni.com/people/Keva-Portman/6000000002598323778
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Who are marks betsy and israel in that document? I have managed to make a connection to the keva mentioned thank you
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Who are marks betsy and israel in that document? I have managed to make a connection to the keva mentioned thank you
I found them- Samuels grandparents