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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Girl Guide on Tuesday 01 December 15 17:36 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help with further information on the family of Walter Frederick ENGLAND(b.1890 in the UK) and his wife Lucy Alice nee SHAW?
They had four living children these being Lucy (b.1912), Walter (b.1913), James (b.1914) and Leslie (b.1923) Hoping to find marriages for these four and any other relevant information.
The family lived in Auckland and Walter Frederick's father, also called Walter, lived in the Glen Eden area.
As I am in the UK my resources are limited to what can be found on the internet.
Any information will be greatly appreciated.
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Hello,
This may be of interest to you.........
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=NZTR19241025.2.36&srpos=1&e=-------10--1----2walter+frederick+england--
Minniehaha.
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The death registration for Walter Frederick.
Registration Number Family Name Given Name(s) Date of Birth Age at Death 59Y
1949/27669 England Walter Frederick
Minniehaha.
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Burial.........
ENGLAND, WALTER FREDERICK
Plot : NONCONFORMIST DIVISION C Row 27, Plot 37
Interment Type: Burial
Title: MR
Surname : ENGLAND
Given Names: WALTER FREDERICK
Age : 59
Gender : Male
Occupation: ENGINE DRIVER
Date Of Death : 31-Oct-1949
Date Of Cremation : N/A
Date Of Burial : 02-Nov-1949
Funeral Director : CONVERTED RECORD
Head Stone Details : N/A
[Waikumete Cemetery].
Minniehaha
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Death of Walter, the son.........
ENGLAND, WALTER
Plot : N/A
Interment Type: Scattered Ashes
Title: MR
Surname : ENGLAND
Given Names: WALTER
Age : 45
Gender : Male
Occupation: CARRIER
Date Of Death : 29-Dec-1958
Date Of Cremation : N/A
Date Of Burial : N/A
Funeral Director : A HOLMES & SONS LTD
Head Stone Details : N/A
[Waikumete Cemetery]
Minniehaha.
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Walter, the father was also buried in this cemetery.
Online Cemetery Search
waitakere.govt.nz/cnlser/cm/cemeterysearch/
I can do newspaper death notice look ups for you in respect of the three Walters, if you wish....
Minniehaha.
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Funeral notice for Walter (1938)
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=NZH19380728.2.194.4&srpos=5&e=-----1940--10-AS%2cNZGWS%2cNZH-1----2walter+england--
Minniehaha
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My goodness me Minniehaha you have been busy. Many thanks indeed for what you found so far.
Yes please, I would be interested in any newspaper death notices that you can find.
If you are able to locate any information on any of Walter Frederick's children that would be marvellous.
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The death notices may provide some family information. A rootschatter may also be able to provide names of any spouses; non-historical information which is not available from the NZ BDM on line index.
www.dia.govt.nz/births-deaths-and-marriages
Minniehaha. :)
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Burial for Lucy Alice.........
ENGLAND, LUCY ALICE
Plot : NONCONFORMIST DIVISION C Row 27, Plot 37
Interment Type: Burial
Title: MRS
Surname : ENGLAND
Given Names: LUCY ALICE
Age : 75
Gender : Female
Occupation: PENSIONER
Date Of Death : 07-Jun-1968
Date Of Cremation : N/A
Date Of Burial : 08-Jun-1968
Funeral Director : CONVERTED RECORD
Head Stone Details : N/A
[Waikumete Cemetery]
I will have a look for Lucy's death notice too.This being later than the others, it may have more family information.
Minniehaha.
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These files held at Auckland archives..........
Hamilton Miscellaneous files [first series]
The Magistrates Court Act 1908 and re William Crowley, Lucy Alice England and Walter Frederick English ORDER DETAILS »
1924 1924 Hamilton High Court Akld
The Magistrates Court Act 1908 and re Lucy Alice England, Walter Frederick England and William Crowley ORDER DETAILS »
1924 1924 Hamilton High Court Akld
www.archway.archives.govt.nz
[If interested, you could start a new topic requesting a look up for these files......]
Minniehaha
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Hello again,
James ENGLAND, born 18.11.1914, died 1992.
Leslie ENGLAND, born 14.2.1923, died 1982.
Minniehaha.
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Burial record.....
ENGLAND, JAMES
Plot : WESTERN LAWN A Row 9, Plot 12
Interment Type: Burial
Title: MR
Surname : ENGLAND
Given Names: JAMES
Age : 78
Gender : Male
Occupation: RETIRED COUNCIL WORKER
Date Of Death : 09-Apr-1992
Date Of Cremation : N/A
Date Of Burial : 14-Apr-1992
Funeral Director : CONVERTED RECORD
Head Stone Details : N/A
[Waikumete cemetery]
Will look for the newspaper death notice.
Minniehaha.
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And here is the one for Leslie England......
Surname: ENGLAND
Forename(s): Leslie
Age: 59 Years
Gender: M
Date of death: 8 December 1982
Date of Burial: 10 December 1982
Funeral director: W.M. Morrison Ltd 220 Universal Drive, Henderson, Auckland 0610
Cemetery: North Shore Memorial Park
235 Schnapper Rock Road, Schnapper Rock
Location: Northern Division Rsa Burials Section 2 Block F Row C Plot 25
I can add a death notice look up for this one too, although you could perhaps contact the funeral directors. www.morrisons.co.nz
There is a 'contact' email address to be found there.
Minniehaha
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I can add a death notice look up for this one too, although you could perhaps contact the funeral directors. www.morrisons.co.nz
There is a 'contact' email address to be found there.
Minniehaha
Morrisons are not very forthcoming with help
Cheers Janette
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You've certainly been beavering away for me Minnehaha. This is wonderful. It will take me a little while to sort out the information that you have given me.
I shall look forward to seeing what you can find regarding funeral notices/write ups for the family.
I am also hopeful that you may be able to locate marriages for Walter and Lucy's children, and any children they had.
Funnily enough my daughter is currently in NZ making her way towards Auckland. Perhaps she may be able to find some gravestones that she could take photos of. I'll have to check where the cemeteries are to see if she may be able to visit them.
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OK Janette, thanks for that information. I'll bear that in mind.
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Thank you Janette. Now I know too.
Girl Guide, I can have a look for the marriages later in the week if no one comes up with the information meantime.
The more recent death notices should be helpful, hopefully....
Minniehaha.
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Thank you Minniehaha. I will wait and see what else turns up here. Whatever anyone finds will be wonderful.
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Burial record.....
ENGLAND, JAMES
Plot : WESTERN LAWN A Row 9, Plot 12
Interment Type: Burial
Title: MR
Surname : ENGLAND
Given Names: JAMES
Age : 78
Gender : Male
Occupation: RETIRED COUNCIL WORKER
Date Of Death : 09-Apr-1992
Date Of Cremation : N/A
Date Of Burial : 14-Apr-1992
Funeral Director : CONVERTED RECORD
Head Stone Details : N/A
[Waikumete cemetery]
Will look for the newspaper death notice.
Minniehaha.
^ Burial in same plot as above >
Ms Mary ENGLAND
aged 86 years
Died: 27 April 2003
~ Lu
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New Zealand Herald 4 May 1927
.........serious work place injury to Walter F ENGLAND of Te Kuiti, at Rangaroa....wife...six or seven children....37 years old.
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Thanks Lu........
Death notice for Mary Ethel ENGLAND sent by PM.
Minniehaha.
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From NZ BDM on line website.........
1912/20522 England Lucy Lucy Alice Walter Frederick -
1914/6110 England James Lucy Alice Walter Frederick -
1913/2873 England Walter Lucy Alice Walter Frederick -
1927/3767 England NR Lucy Alice Walter Frederick S
[These births prior to 100 year cut off].
The marriage of Walter Frederick & Lucy Alice was registered in 1909.
Minniehaha.
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Many thanks to Minniehaha, Lucy2, Janette and Wivenhoe for information provided so far.
I shall be really interested to see what else turns up on here.
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Death notice for Mary Ethel England sent by PM
This might save Minniehaha one look up
Cheers Janette
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See my reply #21 re death notice sent for Mary Ethel ENGLAND..........
[I also sent the others too. For Mary. Might help sort out her family.]
Minniehaha. :)
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Many thanks to everyone who has sent me information so far. I shall look forward to receiving any further information on this family.
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Perhaps she may be able to find some gravestones that she could take photos of. I'll have to check where the cemeteries are to see if she may be able to visit them.
I can have a look in Waikumete cemetery for you,
Cheers Janette
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Would you Janette? Thank you so much. No doubt you are going to be more familiar with the cemetery than my daughter will be.
There seems to be quite a few Englands buried there.
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I hope to be able to come back from the library with some goodies for you tomorrow........
Minniehaha. :)
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Would you Janette? Thank you so much. No doubt you are going to be more familiar with the cemetery than my daughter will be.
There seems to be quite a few Englands buried there.
It is the biggest cemetery in NZ at over 266 acres but we are familiar with it now ;)
Cheers Janette
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Thank you Minniehaha, I shall look forward to seeing the results of your visit.
Janette - My goodness that is large! Does everyone get round using golf buggies then? Must take some time to cover the whole place.
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Have sent part of the family tree it has living relatives.
Kiwi-terrier
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Thank you Minniehaha, I shall look forward to seeing the results of your visit.
Janette - My goodness that is large! Does everyone get round using golf buggies then? Must take some time to cover the whole place.
No golf buggies,we walk or drive from one area to the other.
I can probably get to North Shore Memorial Park next week for you
Cheers Janette
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Lovely Janette, most kind of you.
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Have sent part of the family tree it has living relatives.
Kiwi-terrier
Do you still need the death notices??? Marriage details???
Minniehaha.
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Yes please Minniehaha
All information that you can find will be most welcome. There is always some snippet of information that may have been missed by someone.
My main handicap will be that I probably couldn't afford to buy all the certificates necessary to verify the information found. How much are NZ BMD certificates? In the UK they cost £9.25 each.
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Looking at records on FindMyPast it appears Walter and Alice Lucy may have arrived in NZ in 1905,
Walter senior was 39
Mrs England was 32
Son Walter was 16 and there were 3 other children with them
Laura England was 3
Hilda England was 2 and
Arthur England was 1
All on ticket number 09097
Cheers Janette
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A possible marriage for the daughter Hilda
1935/2134 Hilda England to Tennyson William Middleton
Cheers Janette
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Printout - post 1874 20.40 A copy of the information from the registration, and usually used for research purposes. It is either handwritten or typed
Printout - pre 1875 26.50 A copy of the information from the registration, and usually used for research purposes. It is either handwritten or typed
These prices are in NZ dollars of course.
A printout is best; cheaper and can be e-mailed to you.
More information at the NZ BDM website shown in an earlier response. [Reply #8] You will also find the details you can expect on a printout by going to "Data Collected".........
Minniehaha.
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A marriage for Laura???
1920/5797 Laura Alice England Samuel Walter Entrican
There is a big gap in the ages between Walter (16) and the younger ones.
Might need some "Guidance" ;D on this one.......
Minniehaha.
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It looks like Walter Frederick may have been born to a previous marriage of Walter senior as this looks like his marriage to Eva
Marriages Dec 1897
CLARKE Eva Emma King's N. 6c 829
England Walter King's N 6c 829
The district King's N is an alternative name for Kings Norton and it spans the boundaries of the counties of Staffordshire, Warwickshire and Worcestershire
NZ BDM's death
1944/15764 England Eva Emma 69Y
Cheers Janette
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UK births
Births Dec 1902
England Laura King's N. 6c 417
Births Mar 1904
ENGLAND Hilda King's N. 6c 420
Cheers Janette
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The 1901 census has
Walter England, Gold Miner & Prospector born 1867 in Crediton, Devon, England
Eva E England, Dining Room Keeper born 1874 in Banbury, Oxfordshire, England
Walter F England born 1890 Plymouth, Devon, England
Edith England born 1899 Smethwick, Staffordshire, England
I wonder if Edith died?
Cheers Janette
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Waikumete burial
ENGLAND, EVA EMMA
Plot : WESLEY DIVISION C Row 30, Plot 73
Interment Type: Burial
Title: MRS
Surname : ENGLAND
Given Names: EVA EMMA
Age : 69
Gender : Female
Occupation: WIDOW
Date Of Death : 27-Feb-1944
Date Of Burial : 29-Feb-1944
Funeral Director : CONVERTED RECORD
Head Stone Details : N/A
Cheers Janette
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Information in first post states "four living children"........
Lucy, Walter James & Leslie.
I wonder what happened to Arthur, born about 1904??
Minniehaha.
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Information in first post states "four living children"........
Lucy, Walter James & Leslie.
I wonder what happened to Arthur, born about 1904??
Minniehaha.
Arthur would have been the uncle of the 4 children above
Cheers Janette
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The plot thickens
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=AS19440228.2.8&srpos=9&e=--1943-----100--1-byDA---0eva+emma+england--
2 more children born in NZ
1907/9227 England Victor Leonard to Eva Emma and Walter
1910/16556 England Margery to Eva Emma and Walter
Cheers Janette
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Death
1973/45527 England Victor Leonard born 15/1/1907 66Y
buried Rotorua
http://geo.rdc.govt.nz/Geocortex/Essentials/External/REST/TempFiles/CemeteryPlot.pdf?guid=9a80127d-807e-4aa1-80cc-b7e0346ac909&contentType=application%2Fpdf
Cheers Janette
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Death...........
1987/32376 England Marjorie 27/8/1910 76Y
Minniehaha
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Re reply #46
Still not able to find Arthur, born about 1904......
Minniehaha.
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Re reply #46
Still not able to find Arthur, born about 1904......
Minniehaha.
Trying to find the ship's arrival to see who was on the list
It was the SS Kumara and arrived on the 14th Oct.1905
Cheers Janette
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3 children died on the voyage to NZ
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=BA19051014.2.50.5&srpos=4&e=-10-1905--10-1905--100--1-byDA---2ss+kumara--
Cheers Janette
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I have found a death for Arthur on FindMyPast
Arthur James born Birmingham
he died on the Kumara on the 12 Sep 1905 aged 9 weeks death reported Oct 1905
Cheers Janette
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That is so sad. The poor wee mite.
Minniehaha.
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That is so sad. The poor wee mite.
Minniehaha.
The poor parents too very sad indeed
Janette
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Although I have not found the death registration yet for Hilda, I think this could be her probated will?
[See reply #47]
MIDDLETON Hilda - Rotorua - Married Woman
1966 1966 Hamilton High Court Akld
The above from Archives.
Minniehaha.
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If on the right track, this is the death of Hilda's husband........
1981/28885 Middleton Tennyson William 7/1/1901 80Y
And........
Rotorua Probate Files
MIDDLETON Tennyson William - Waihi - Retired Civil Servant
1981 1981 Rotorua High Court Akld
Minniehaha.
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This may be the marriage for Walter Frederick's parents
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Jun 1889
ENGLAND Walter Plymouth 5b 491
Hall Henrietta Mary Plymouth 5b 491
Yeoman Jane Plymouth 5b 491
Cheers Janette
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Hello Janette
Yes, you are quite correct that is the marriage of Walter Fred's parents. I have the marriage cert which I obtained quite some time ago.
Walter married Henrietta Hall and I think she died on her way back from USA in 1895. I found a death recorded in May 1895 on either the Endeavour or the Knight of the Garter. Only a surname is mentioned, no first name or age. Never found any death recorded on the UK BMD.
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A brother of Lucy, Walter, James & Leslie.........
ENGLAND, FREDERICK
Plot : PROTESTANT DIVISION C Row 2, Plot 75
Interment Type: Burial
Title: MR
Surname : ENGLAND
Given Names: FREDERICK
Age : 49
Gender : Male
Occupation: HOSPITAL ORDERLY
Date Of Death : 27-Feb-1971
Date Of Cremation : N/A
Date Of Burial : 02-Mar-1971
Funeral Director : DAVIS FUNERAL SERVICES
Head Stone Details : HEADSTONE: ILMO our dear husband and father FREDERICK ENGLAND died 27.2.1971 aged 49 Ever rem
[Waikumete Cemetery.]
Marriage details and newspaper death notice sent by PM.
Minniehaha.
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A sister of Lucy, Walter, James, Leslie and Frederick.........
MELVILLE, THELMA
Plot : NORTH LAWN E Row 5, Plot 52
Interment Type: Burial
Title: MRS
Surname : MELVILLE
Given Names: THELMA
Age : 62
Gender : Female
Occupation: HOME DUTIES
Date Of Death : 16-Apr-1982
Date Of Cremation : N/A
Date Of Burial : 20-Apr-1982
Funeral Director : CHRISTIAN FUNERAL SERVICES
Head Stone Details : N/A
Marriage details and newspaper death notice sent by PM.
Minniehaha.
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Newspaper death notices sent by PM for:
ENGLAND, Leslie.
ENGLAND, Frederick.
ENGLAND, Walter, (1958) x 3.
ENGLAND, Lucy Alice, x 2.
ENGLAND, James. x 3.
MELVILLE, Thelma, x 2
Unfortunately was not able to do the one for Walter Frederick ENGLAND as the film had been sliced through the very part of the newspaper I needed.
Minniehaha.
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A sister of Lucy, Walter, James, Leslie, Thelma & Frederick.......
THOMAS, WINIFRED
Plot : NORTH LAWN E Row 5, Plot 1
Interment Type: Burial
Title: MRS
Surname : THOMAS
Given Names: WINIFRED
Age : 71
Gender : Female
Occupation: WIDOW
Date Of Death : 22-Oct-1987
Date Of Cremation : N/A
Date Of Burial : 24-Oct-1987
Funeral Director : CHRISTIAN FUNERAL SERVICES
Head Stone Details : N/A
[Waikumete Cemetery].
Marriage details sent by PM. Newspaper death notice still to come...........
Minniehaha.
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Husband of Winifred........
THOMAS, CYRIL ALBERT
Plot : NORTH LAWN E Row 5, Plot 1
Interment Type: Burial
Title: MR
Surname : THOMAS
Given Names: CYRIL ALBERT
Age : 68
Gender : Male
Occupation: ENGINEER
Date Of Death : 15-Aug-1981
Date Of Cremation : N/A
Date Of Burial : 18-Aug-1981
Funeral Director : CHRISTIAN FUNERAL SERVICES
Head Stone Details : N/A
[Waikumete Cemetery.]
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Husband of Thelma.........
MELVILLE, VICTOR MANSELL
Plot : NORTH LAWN E Row 5, Plot 52
Interment Type: Burial
Title: MR
Surname : MELVILLE
Given Names: VICTOR MANSELL
Age : 75
Gender : Male
Occupation: RTD BOROUGH FOREMAN
Date Of Death : 19-May-1990
Date Of Cremation : N/A
Date Of Burial : 22-May-1990
Funeral Director : CHRISTIAN FUNERAL SERVICES
Head Stone Details : N/A
[Waikumete Cemetery]
Minniehaha.
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Death registration for Charlotte (wife of Frederick ENGLAND)........
Registration Number Family Name Given Name(s) Date of Birth Age at Death
2004/16316 England Charlotte Elsie 19/3/1925 79Y
Death notice for Charlotte ENGLAND sent by PM.
Minniehaha.
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I will add those names to the list for Waikumete photos
Cheers Janette
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Surname ENGLAND
Forename Charlotte Elsie
Age 79 Years
Gender Female
Date of Death 16 Jul 2004
Place of Death Dunedin Hospital, Gt King Street, Dunedin
Last Address 10 Tweed Street, Mosgiel, DUNEDIN
Next of Kin
Funeral Director Campbell & Sons, 95 Gordon Road, Mosgiel, DUNEDIN
Cemetery ANDERSONS BAY CEMETERY
Location Block P1. Plot 105
Date of Burial 16 Mar 2005
Type Ashes Burial
Occupation
Place of Birth
Date of Birth Not recorded
Notes Occupation: Retired
There are a few other England's buried in Dunedin
http://www.dunedin.govt.nz/facilities/cemeteries/cemeteries_search
Cheers Janette
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Archives hold the following file, not restricted:
Coroners Inquests, case files [record group]
Coroners Inquests Unnecessary - Case Files - England, Walter
1959 1959 Justice Department [record group] Wgtn
www.archway.archives.govt.nz
Minniehaha.
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Death registration for wife of Walter ENGLAND. (He died 29.12.1958).
1993/41588 England Phyllis Mary 19/3/1914 79Y
Minniehaha.
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From Purewa Cemetery;
Surname ENGLAND
First Names Phyllis Mary
Age 79 Years
Gender Female
Date of Death 21 Jul 1993
Religion
Serial No 63441
Date of Service and/or Interment 23 Jul 1993
Type Of Service
Funeral Director Davis Funeral Services, P O Box 56013, AUCKLAND
Ashes Disposal Scattered
Book Of Remembrance Yes
I can get the death notice if required.........
Minniehaha.
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See reply #49.........
ENGLAND, Marjery
Date of Death:Tuesday, March 10, 1987
Block:Papatoetoe Cemetery, 357 Puhinui Road, Papatoetoe
Lot:ALLRE-NP-00
Date Buried:Thursday, March 12, 1987
Will look for a death notice for this one too.....
Minniehaha.
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Many thanks to all who have supplied the latest round of information. I'm really pleased to have all this.
Keep it coming!!
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Hi Girl Guide,
Are we on the right track with Eva Emma being Walter Frederick's stepmother?
Cheers Janette
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Hi Janette
Yes, that is absolutely correct. Walter married Eva on 23rd December 1897 at St.John's Church, Harbourne, Staffordshire UK
In 1905 Walter and Eva emigrated to NZ with their family.
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Again from Waikumete Cemetery.......
ENGLAND, SARAH ISABEL
Plot : N/A
Interment Type: Cremation
Title: MS
Surname : ENGLAND
Given Names: SARAH ISABEL
Age : 66
Gender : Female
Occupation: PENSIONER
Date Of Death : 07-Sep-1981
Date Of Cremation : N/A
Date Of Burial : N/A
Funeral Director : FLETCHER BROWN FUNERAL SERVICES
Head Stone Details : N/A
Marriage found for a Walter England to Sarah Isabel Faber, after cut off point on NZ BDM.
Does this couple belong to those we are researching???
Minniehaha.
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Yes Minnie - Walter is Walter F and Lucy Alice's child.
I think my eyes are getting crossed over with all this wonderful information that I am receiving from you marvellous people in NZ - or at least I assume you are in NZ?
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But what about the Walter ENGLAND who married Phyllis Mary ???
My eyes are well and truly crossed! ;D
Minniehaha.
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She only appears on the ER's
Phyllis Mary England 1978 Roskill Auckland
Phyllis Mary England 1981 Roskill Auckland
Cheers Janette
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There are 4 Walter England death in NZ
1949/27669 England Walter Frederick 59Y
1987/31143 England Walter Douglas born 6/10/1916 70Y
1959/20502 England Walter 45Y
1938/23846 England Walter 71Y
1993/41588 England Phyllis Mary born 19/3/1914 79Y
Cheers Janette
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Sorry Minnie, Walter married twice apparently, first one to Sarah Faber and second one to Phyllis Jupp.
Hope that clears it for you.
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What faith did the family follow?
Cheers Janette
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Janette
Haven't the foggiest I'm afraid, no idea at all.
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Thank you for the clarification Girl Guide. I will look for Sarah's death notice too.......
Minniehaha.
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Hi Girl Guide
A successful 2 hours in the cemetery,all but Walter and Eva had headstones,could you PM me your email addy please.
Cheers Janette
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Hi
Photos sent
Cheers Janette
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Here are the burial details for the husband (?) of Lucy ENGLAND.........
BISHOP, WILLIAM ARTHUR
Plot : PROTESTANT BERM A Row 17, Plot 60
Interment Type: Burial
Title: MR
Surname : BISHOP
Given Names: WILLIAM ARTHUR
Age : 64
Gender : Male
Occupation: INVALID
Date Of Death : 11-May-1976
Date Of Cremation : N/A
Date Of Burial : 14-May-1976
Funeral Director : CONVERTED RECORD
Head Stone Details : N/A
[Waikumete Cemetery]
I will add his death notice to my list.
I have not located the death or burial of wife Lucy nee ENGLAND. (Born 1912).
Minniehaha.
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I did notice that Lucy has a second name of Olive in the list of names that I was given. Could she have been buried under that name at all?
In the Rotorua cemetery records there is an Olive Bishop who was cremated on 13.1.1987 but no age is mentioned.
Quite a few of Walter F and Lucy A's children were born in Rotorua so there is a connection there.
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This looks like the death mentioned above
1987/32533 Bishop Olive born 16/7/1904 aged 82Y
narrowed down on BDM's the date is 10/1/1987
Cheers Janette
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Birth
1912/20522 England Lucy to Lucy Alice and Walter Frederick
narrowed down date 2/2/1912
Cheers Janette
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Five telephone numbers sent by PM. Addresses will be supplied if requested.
Minniehaha. :)
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Thank you Janette for that and Minnie have read your pm.
Now can either of you help with something that puzzles me on the list of descendants that I have?
Two girls said to be the children of Walter Frederick and Lucy Alice, they are:-
Lucy Olive England born 1912 in Auckland
Winifred Alice England born 31 August 1912 in Rotorua, died 1979
I can't get my head around the idea that Lucy Alice gave birth to two children in the same year in two different places! I did find a birth record for Lucy but couldn't find anything for Winifred. I don't know where to find records of Rotorua births.
I would need to obtain printouts for the births of these two girls to clarify exactly who the parents are. Can you help?
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Hello...
PM sent.
Just guesswork.
No proof of anything :-)
---
Would someone with access to either ancestry or the 1912 birth fiches mind looking up the registration district for Winifred Alice HILLS b.1912
Hoping for Rotorua.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Thanks for your pm which I have read.
I have a few credits with Ancestry so have had a quick look and found the below
Name: Winifred Alice Hills
Birth Date: Jul-Aug-Sep 1912
Registration Place: Rangiora, Canterbury, New Zealand
Folio Number: 4494
Definitely not Rotorua is it!
So now we have to work out which England she married if she did marry an England.
I've just looked at the burial record for Winifred Thomas and something is wrong here. This lady was 71 when she died in 1987 which gives a birth year of 1916! Married to a Cyril Albert Thomas.
Winifred Alice is said to have died in 1979 so definitely something wrong.
Need to find Cyril's marriage to see what Winifred's maiden name was. Supposed to have married in 1937 but I wouldn't assume that is correct.
Seems that the research has gone a bit adrift in this case.
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"Need to find Cyril's marriage to see what Winifred's maiden name was. Supposed to have married in 1937 but I wouldn't assume that is correct."
The above is a quote from your last message Girl Guide.
I sent details of Winifred's marriage to you by PM. And yes, you may assume that this information is correct.
See also death notices (1968) sent by PM for Lucy Alice England.
See also death notice (1958) sent by PM for Walter England.
Minniehaha.
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Minnie did you see my earlier post #92? Part repeated below
"Now can either of you help with something that puzzles me on the list of descendants that I have?
Two girls said to be the children of Walter Frederick and Lucy Alice, they are:-
Lucy Olive England born 1912 in Auckland
Winifred Alice England born 31 August 1912 in Rotorua, died 1979
I can't get my head around the idea that Lucy Alice gave birth to two children in the same year in two different places! I did find a birth record for Lucy but couldn't find anything for Winifred. I don't know where to find records of Rotorua births."
For some reason I can't find the pm with the Winifred marriage details. I don't know if may have accidentally deleted it. Still a bit new to the pm's at the moment.
Can you follow what I was trying to say with the Lucy/Winifred scenario?
The Winifred who married Cyril Thomas died in 1987 aged 71 which gives a birth year of 1916. The Winifred on the descendants list is said to have died in 1979 born in 1912. This is why I am wondering if the 1912 Winifred is NOT the child of Walter F and Lucy A.
Hopefully you can follow that?
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I don't know why (or how) a Winifred Alice has come into the picture.
See my reply #63.......
Winifred (no Alice) Thomas nee England, died in 1987. Her birth date recorded as 3.4.1916.
Minniehaha.
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I think the only way I can get this confusion of the Winifreds sorted out is to get the marriage certificate for Winifred marrying Cyril Thomas.
I am assuming it will give me her father's name as we do with UK certificates?
Can someone pm me with what I need to know so that I can order the marriage cert. please? It should clear up the confusion that I am in.
I gather that the best way is to order a printout. What website do I order the marriage cert. from?
Thanks very much.
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Hi Girl Guide,
Personally I think you should save your pounds, as far as this particular marriage is concerned. The paper trail I sent, sets out the England Thomas connection very well I think. In addition, Winifred and Cyril are buried in the same plot, providing further confirmation of the correct couple.
Have you considered that the information on the tree may be incorrect?
[I can have a look for the marriage of the Winifred Alice (nee?) England who was born in 1912]
Minniehaha. :)
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Just sent you a pm
If you can clear up Winifred Alice that would be good. Not too sure how she got there.
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Will do our best to help. Just don't spend those pounds yet ;D
Minniehaha.
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Ok Minnie I'll save my pounds for the moment.
Could you pm the marriage details for Winifred and Cyril again please? I seem to have mislaid them somewhere.
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As requested, details sent by PM.........
Minniehaha.
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Postal addresses of 5 people from death notices sent via e-mail.
Minniehaha.
-
Winifred has no Alice on her headstone,although Cyril has his middle name
Cheers Janette
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Hi Janette
No she hasn't has she. I don't know how this Winifred Alice was arrived at for the descendants list that I have.
I am hoping to hear from the Rotorua council about how to find birth records between 1900 and 1930. Several of Walter F and Lucy's children were born there. I am hoping to find Winifred listed.
I need to get this clarified otherwise I shall have her in the wrong place on the family tree.
Doesn't New Zealand have a national base for all the births, marriages and deaths in the country?
Those of you who do research in the UK will know that we have the General Register Office which has all the BMD records for England and Wales. Scotland and Ireland have their own GROs.
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Hi,
Throwing this in about Lucy (nee England) and William Arthur Bishop.
The 1957 Electoral Roll for Onehunga show a William Arthur Bishop and Lucy. William was a driver.
1969- Remuera, no William Arthur Bishop and Lucy is a Widow.
1972 still in Remuera no William Arthur Bishop showing.
Could the death in 1976 for the William Arthur Bishop Minnie is going to look up be for a different chap with the same name?
Cheers
KHP
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I am hoping to hear from the Rotorua council about how to find birth records between 1900 and 1930. Several of Walter F and Lucy's children were born there. I am hoping to find Winifred listed.
I need to get this clarified otherwise I shall have her in the wrong place on the family tree.
Doesn't New Zealand have a national base for all the births, marriages and deaths in the country?
Those of you who do research in the UK will know that we have the General Register Office which has all the BMD records for England and Wales. Scotland and Ireland have their own GROs.
The Rotorua Council has nothing to do with Birth ,Deaths or Marriages all BDM's are registered in Wellington with the Dept. of Internal Affairs
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Home/
Cheers Janette
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Oh that's a bit of a stumper Janette.
So how can I find the birth records of Winifred, Thelma, Frederick and Leslie? The first three are in Rotorua and the last one in Te Kuiti.
The web link that you give is the one I have been using and it only shows Lucy, James and Walter plus a stillbirth.
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If you are using information from an online tree this is where things might have gone wrong as folk often do not check their information before posting it.
If the Frederick you refer to is the one buried in Waikumete he was 49 when he died in 1971 so has a birth year of C 1922,we know from the stillbirth that his parents were still producing in the 1920's.
Births after today's date 100 years ago can only be found on the birth fiche held in libraries and FH places
Cheers Janette
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To add to Janette's post.
This from the NZ BDM website-
You can search for:
Births that occurred at least 100 years ago
Stillbirths if registered at least 50 years ago.
Minniehaha.
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Kiwi
Interesting point. The burial record I have been given shows death date of May 1976 age 64. However on consulting the descendants list I have the death as March 1976 with a birth in August 1911.
Hhmm only two William Arthur Bishops in the deaths between 1970 and 1990. Nothing between 1950 and 1970.
1976/35269 Bishop William Arthur 3/8/1911 64Y
1977/29757 Bishop William Arthur 9/5/1883 93Y
Any thoughts anyone?
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The reason I offered to do that death notice look up was to hopefully prove one way or the other as to whether or not that William Arthur Bishop was the husband of Lucy........
Minniehaha.
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Looking at the Waikumete cemetery record for William Arthur Bishop his occupation is given as "invalid" maybe Lucy was living apart from him and called herself a widow which was not unheard of in those days
Cheers Janette
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Hmm so maybe the March bit was a typing error?
By the way do you not have local registry offices where you can register your child's birth, get married there and register a death?
I've been to my local one in Bristol many times and obtained historical certificates relating to a family I was researching that had links to Bristol.
The local register offices would then, every quarter I think, send off copies of all the BMDs that had been registered to the national GRO for their records.
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Hi Girl Guide,
May I suggest that you have another look at the NZ BDM website. There is much information to be gleaned from this as to how our registration system works........
Minniehaha. :)
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Hi Girl Guide,
May I suggest that you have another look at the NZ BDM website. There is much information to be gleaned from this as to how our registration system works........
Minniehaha. :)
Also have a look here
http://www.dia.govt.nz/diawebsite.nsf/wpg_URL/Services-Births-Deaths-and-Marriages-How-to-Contact-Us
If you use the lefthand side bar you will see that births can be registered online,I am unsure that the branch offices give out information now as it is all sent to Wellington electronically.
Cheers Janette
-
??
Christchurch Probate files
ENGLAND Winifred Alice - Kaiapoi - Widow
1979 1979 Christchurch High Court Chch
Minniehaha.
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Girl Guide
It looks like your information is incorrect,here is the death for Winifred
1979/41785 England Winifred Alice 31/8/1912 67Y
As she was a widow England was not her maiden name
Cheers Janette
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1977/29757 Bishop William Arthur 9/5/1883 93Y
Any thoughts anyone?
According to Archives he was a Retired Saddler of Palmerston North/Tauranga. His probate is held at Auckland.
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
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Back to replies #93 & #94......
Maybe this is the lady (Winifred Alice, born 1912) who married an England? I can check this.
Minniehaha.
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Looking at my marriage disc the only Winifred Alice Hills showing married a William Irwin Morris.
Cheers
KHP
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Thanks KHP. Saves me looking for that one. :)
Minniehaha.
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A suggestion-
E-mail Christchurch City Libraries and request a death notice look up for Winifred Alice England.
Her date of death was 2.9.1979.
https://www.google.co.nz/?gws_rd=ssl#q=christchurch+library
Minniehaha.
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OK Minnie I'll try that and see what happens.
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Looking at my marriage disc the only Winifred Alice Hills showing married a William Irwin Morris.
Cheers
KHP
Winifred Alice Morris married Edward Arthur England. E/R's show them to be in the Canterbury Area. I will PM the marriage date.
Cheers
KHP
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Birth
1907/16018 England Edward Arthur to Sophia and Edward
Death
1976/53983 England Edward Arthur born 21/7/1907 aged 69Y
Doesn't look like he is one of yours
Cheers Janette
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Hi Kiwi
Thanks for that information.
I have just Live Chatted with the library in Christchurch and they are going to send me any death notices for Winifred Alice England that would have been in the paper. At least I hope they will find at least one!
Minniehaha suggested this to me.
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Hi Janette
Definitely not one of mine then.
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It appears that that England family had been in NZ very early on
Marriage
1906/4538 Sophia Nisbet to Edward England
Birth
1871/20767 England Edward to Martha and George
Cheers Janette
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There is another marriage for an Edward Arthur England prior to the one to Winifred Alice. Not sure if it is the same chap or not.
Cheers
KHP
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The Olive Bishop mentioned is not Lucy Olive Bishop.
This Olive is a spinster.
Kiwi-terrier
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The probate for that William Arthur Bishop 1977 is not him.
Checked him out years ago.
kiwi-terrier
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The probate for that William Arthur Bishop 1977 is not him.
Checked him out years ago.
kiwi-terrier
Thanks for the clarification KT .... are you somehow connected to the England's?
Cheers
KHP
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No not related, did help out a genie friend with the this England family some time ago and have sent Girl Guide most of the information I had.
Kiwi-terrier
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So, it's back to the drawing board re the marriage (?) and death of Lucy ENGLAND. I will go back and see if there are any other Lucy England's who married after the BDM cut off. Unless someone else has any other ideas?
Minniehaha.
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Hi Girl Guide,
If you Google the very unusual girl's name I sent to you by e-mail, and who by the way, is a grand-daughter of James England (died 1992), you will find her, with photograph at:
https://nz.linkedin.com/
You could contact her through that website.
Minniehaha.
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Thank you Minnie, I will see what I can do about making contact at some stage.
A kind soul has been finding wills for me, so no-one needs to look for any of the below named:-
Eva Emma ENGLAND died 1944 Glen Eden
Laura ETHERINGTON died 1958 at Papakura
Margery ENGLAND died 1987 at Auckland (didn’t marry then)
Walter ENGLAND died 1958 at Auckland (didn’t actually make a will – letters of Admin)
Phyllis Mary ENGLAND died 1993 at Auckland
Mansell Victor MELVILLE died 1990 at Auckland
Victor Leonard ENGLAND died 1973 at Rotorua
Evelyn Myrtle ENGLAND died 1983 at Rotorua
I think most have them have had their burial records found apart from Laura and Margery. Is that right?
I'm really grateful for all the help I have been receiving from everyone here on Rootschat.
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ETHERINGTON, Laura
Date of Death:13/5/1958
Block:Papakura Cemetery, Great South Road Papakura
Lot:PLWN-F-024
Date Buried:Thursday, May 15, 1958
Cheers Janette
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ENGLAND, Marjery
Date of Death:Tuesday, March 10, 1987
Block:
Papatoetoe Cemetery, 357 Puhinui Road, Papatoetoe
Lot:ALLRE-NP-004
Date Buried:Thursday, March 12, 1987
Cheers Janette
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Marjery England burial details also supplied at Reply # 72
Minniehaha.
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Thank you Janette for that.
Minnie - I've had so much information that I think I have lost track of some of it! Many thanks for the reminder.
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Marjery England burial details also supplied at Reply # 72
Minniehaha.
Thanks Minniehaha,
Girl Guide,it might pay for you to sort out all the information we have given you as you seem to be in a bit of a muddle with it all and we are repeating ourselves now the thread is so long ;D ;D ;D
Cheers Janette
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Yes Janette, I went through all the pages one at a time checking whether I had copied the information given. I must have missed that particular one.
I am now getting down to the stage where I shall be at the generation who may well still be alive and therefore information about them cannot be put on the thread.
I'll have another careful check again through all these pages and then decide whether I need any more info or whether it can be regarded as completed.
How do you indicate that you have received all the information that you require?
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I thought people might like to see one of the very few photos I have of Walter and his wife Eva Emma.
Ooo a good bit larger than I thought it was going to be!!
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Can anyone have a look and see if they can find birth records for the below children please?
Winifred ENGLAND born Rotorua? 1916
Thelma ENGLAND born Rotorua 1919
Frederick ENGLAND born Rotorua 1922
Leslie ENGLAND born Te Kuiti 1923
The parents of all the above are Walter Frederick and Lucy Alice ENGLAND (nee SHAW)
I don't really want to go to the expense of ordering printouts if you wonderful people can find them for me. I just wish to confirm the births.
I found the birth records of the other three Lucy, Walter and James plus one stillbirth.
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Hello...
Those births happened less than 100 years ago so won't appear on the BDM NZ website.
The BDM NZ Births microfiche (1840-ish to 1990) can be looked up at the library but will only show the child's name(s) and surname and the place of registration. You already seem to have that information.
If you ever decide to get birth certificates you can order printouts of them from the "Non-Historical" section of the BDM NZ website.
Regards
Beg
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Thank you for that Beg. I guess that the fact that all four of them are already dead doesn't count.
I did look at the non-historical BMD site but in order to obtain any certificates I would need to register for a Real Me account. I live in the UK so don't know whether I would qualify for this account.
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Hi again...
Reasonably sure that you only need a RealMe ID if you're using the online ordering service.
You can still just order over the phone (BDM NZ +64 4 463 9362) with the birth details (surname, name, year and folio number).
And, of course, your debit/credit card number :-)
Order a printout @ $20.40 and ask for delivery by both email and normal mail.
The certificate @ $26.50 is just a transcription of the register whereas the printout is a scan of the register.
---
The folio number is found on the BDM NZ microfiche held at most NZ libraries.
It's only a five minute job to look up the fiche so if you decide to purchase some printouts let us know and some kind soul will do a fiche lookup.
As you're overseas there's even a pretty good chance you can just phone BDM NZ with the names and years. No need for the folio number as every B, D and M from 1840 onwards is on their computer. Wouldn't take them a moment to find the relevant entry.
Regards
Beg
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Hi Beg
Many thanks for your helpful information. All I really wanted was to confirm that the four I mentioned have a mother's maiden name of SHAW. Father is Walter Frederick. Not sure what information appears on your non-historical BMDs.
In the UK we don't make any distinction between historical and non-historical. We can order certificates from either the General Register Office or the register office local to the birth, marriage or death.
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Hi ,
you could try getting the printouts of their death registrations,this is what you could expect to find on them
https://bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/datacollected/death.aspx
Cheers Janette
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A photo of Leslie England's plaque emailed
Cheers Janette
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Hi Janette
There does seem to be quite a lot of information on a death certificate doesn't there. I'll look them up and consider ordering them.
Got the email thanks. Will print it off later.
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Hi Everyone
I am most grateful for all the information that all of you have supplied to me regarding Walter Frederick and his family.
As I said in an earlier post, I think we are getting to the stage where the family are going to be living people. Am I right in thinking that details of living persons on general posts is not allowed? Living persons information would be by pm?
I will leave this thread open until Saturday 19th December (UK time) to give anyone time to add anything else. After that I will make this thread a completed one.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all.
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Hi Girl Guide,
Yes, that's correct, we use the PM system for providing information on loving or possibly living persons, exchanging email addresses, etc.
Spades
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Ah thank you Spades, I did have the right idea then.
My difficulty now is that I am not able to search any birth or marriage indexes that date after about 1935 or so. This means that unless you lovely people look for me, I can't go any further.
I discovered that to search the non-historical indexes I need a Real Me account. As I live in the UK I can't open one of those!
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Just a suggestion,if you make contact with one of the living folk that you have names, numbers and addresses for they may be able to help you with those details,you will find folk in NZ are very approachable
Cheers Janette
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That's good to know Janette, thank you.
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Burial details re Laura nee England..........
ETHERINGTON, Laura Date of Death:
Block:
Papakura Cemetery, Great South Road Papakura
Lot:
PLWN-F-024
Date Buried:
Thursday, May 15, 1958
Death notice will be sent shortly together with marriage details.
Also death notice for husband to come............
Minniehaha.
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Death notice for the husband of Laura Etherington sent by PM.
The following death notices sent by e-mail......
Phyllis Mary ENGLAND (1993) x 5
Sarah Isabel ENGLAND (1981)
Laura ETHERINGTON (1958) x 2 [Marriage details sent also.]
Winifred THOMAS (1987)
Marjery ENGLAND (1987)
And last but not least.......
William Arthur BISHOP (1976) Was he the husband of "your" Lucy England?
I checked the marriages again up to 1956 and this was the only one for a Lucy ENGLAND. Death notice says "Loved husband of Lucy......." However we have not yet found a death for this Lucy. Did she remarry??
Minniehaha.
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Hi Minniehaha
Is this the William Arthur buried in Waikumete?
I can check for a headstone if it would help
Cheers Janette
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Yes Janette,
Waikumete Berm Cemetery is correct. [FYI he had 3 children.]
Minniehaha.
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Death notices for Laura Etherington (nee England) & Marjery England mention their brother "Vic England".
He was Victor Leonard ENGLAND, born 15.1.1907. Died 29.11.1973. Death possibly registered @ Rotorua.
The parents of both Margery/Marjery/Marjorie and Victor Leonard were Eva Emma and Walter ENGLAND.
[Details for Margery given in an earlier post. Death notice already sent.]
Minniehaha.
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Oooops!!!
Apologies to Janette. Above information re Margery & Victor Leonard already provided in replies #47 & #48.........
Minniehaha. ::)
-
Death notice for Eva Emma ENGLAND...........
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=NZH19440228.2.8&srpos=21&e=27-02-1944--03-1944--10-AS%2cNZH-21----2eva+--
Minniehaha.
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Oooops!!!
Apologies to Janette. Above information re Margery & Victor Leonard already provided in replies #47 & #48.........
Minniehaha. ::)
Easily done with such a long thread
If I get a chance I will pop into Battersby's and ask what they have on record for Eva
Cheers Janette
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Returning to the conundrum concerning William Arthur BISHOP, see reply #107.
When he died in May 1976, William was, "late of Amy street, Ellerslie" and as previously mentioned, "loved husband of Lucy"....
Is this helpful for (another) Electoral Roll search?
Minniehaha.
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The only William Arthur Bishop on the E/R for 1972 is for Manawatu-Wanganui and that one has been ruled out I think.
The next E/R for 1978 shows a William Arthur Bishop in Helensville and there is no Lucy.
The 1969/1972 E/R mentioned in #107 has the address of 21 Wairakei St, Remuera. 1978 & 1981 Lucy is still at that address.
Feel free to double check these at the library.
Cheers
KHP
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Returning to the conundrum concerning William Arthur BISHOP, see reply #107.
When he died in May 1976, William was, "late of Amy street, Ellerslie" and as previously mentioned, "loved husband of Lucy"....
Is this helpful for (another) Electoral Roll search?
Minniehaha.
Does it say where he died? the cemetery records states he occupation was "invalid",he seems to vanish from the ER's after 1957
William Arthur Bishop 1935 Manukau Auckland
William Arthur Bishop 1938 Onehunga Auckland
William Arthur Bishop 1946 Tamaki Auckland
William Arthur Bishop 1949 Tamaki Auckland
William Arthur Bishop 1954 Onehunga Auckland
William Arthur Bishop 1957 Onehunga Auckland
Maybe he was hospitalized and unfit to vote
Lucy Bishop 1935 Manukau Auckland
Lucy Bishop 1938 Onehunga Auckland
Lucy Bishop 1946 Tamaki Auckland
Lucy Bishop 1949 Tamaki Auckland
Lucy Bishop 1954 Onehunga Auckland
Lucy Bishop 1957 Onehunga Auckland
Lucy Bishop 1969 Remuera Auckland
Lucy Bishop 1972 Remuera Auckland
Lucy Bishop 1978 Remuera Auckland
Lucy Bishop 1981 Remuera Auckland
This maybe Lucy in the same area
Cheers Janette
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I wasn't doubting you at all KHP. I was just hoping with the additional information, another search might turn up something else :)
Minniehaha.
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I wasn't doubting you at all KHP. I was just hoping with the additional information, another search would turn up something else :)
Minniehaha.
Didn't think you were Minnie :) Just thinking out loud here, I wonder if searching the next Rolls after 1981 to trace Lucy?
Remuera is more upmarket in living to go to from Onehunga, if William was hospitalised could he have been placed there?
Cheers
KHP
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No Janette, nothing in the death notice as to where he died.
The funeral service was held in the Chapel of Fletcher Brown, New Lynn.
All communications to 21 Wairakei Street, Greenlane.......
Minniehaha.
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No Janette, nothing in the death notice as to where he died.
The funeral service was held in the Chapel of Fletcher Brown, New Lynn.
All communications to 21 Wairakei Street, Greenlane.......
Minniehaha.
Which is the address of Lucy in the Rolls.
Cheers
KHP
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So we have definitely established, I think! that Lucy & William were not living at the same address when he died. Where to now? To sort this one out I think Girl Guide may have to make contact with relatives on the list I sent.
Minniehaha.
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Agree Minnie, we can only go so far in our search, and Lucy is our needle in looking, and the next ones to take Girl Guide on her journey is the relatives.
Cheers
KHP
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Hi everyone
Thank you for trying to solve the mystery of Lucy. It may well be that it can only be solved by contact with living relatives. I'm working on that but it may take a while!
Going back to Walter Frederick..........I was browsing the internet and ended up on the website called My Trees com. He appears on this site as part of someone's family tree but in order for me to access the information I would need to pay. Does anyone have a sub to this website? If so would they be willing to see who the owner of this tree is? The number of the owner is ma004518.
My curiosity has been aroused into wondering who put this on. May not be contactable anymore, don't know how old this information is. Can anyone help?
-
You might be interested in this
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=NZTR19241025.2.36
Cheers Janette
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Hi Janette
It was good of you to find it for me, but I received this link as the very first reply when I started the thread (#1) from your fellow researcher Minnie.
This is what comes of having such a long thread! People lose track of what has already been added, even I can't remember everything that has appeared on here!
Many thanks though for looking.
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Hello Girl Guide,
This has been a very long journey over which a great deal of information has been given to you by several people about the England family, including a number of contact details here in New Zealand.
As we are now at the stage where we have left the dead and reached the quick, I feel my work is done.
I wish you all the best with your continuing research journey. :) :)
Minniehaha.
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Hello Minniehaha
Yes indeed, it has been an amazing journey and I am most grateful to you and all the others who have supplied me with information about Walter and his family.
Walter's descendants far outnumber that of his older brother James who only produced one legitimate child and one illegitimate child. The legitimate child was my grandfather Sidney and Sidney only had the one child who was my mother, so a very small output compared to Walter.
I will leave this thread open just in case anyone comes up with anything that I haven't had, but will close it at the end of next week.
Many thanks once again to all of you and have a Merry Christmas and a fruitful New Year.
-
Just to let you know that I discovered that Hilda had died in the UK. Received her death certificate this morning, died 9 July 1965 at Pershore, Worcestershire UK. Her husband was the informant.
-
I will leave this thread open just in case anyone comes up with anything that I haven't had, but will close it at the end of next week.
What further information are you looking for?
With Christmas imminent I think any further research from this end will have to wait until the New Year as some places with be closed for the NZ holiday season
Have a great Christmas
Cheers Janette
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Hi Janette
To be honest I think everyone has done a sterling job for me and as we are now getting to the living persons generation, information on those persons cannot be put on the thread.
I don't think there is anything more that I can ask for, as I did have a list of descendants sent to me which was a wonderful bonus and more than I could have hoped for.
I do have some names, addresses and phone numbers that I could contact for further information.
As you say Christmas is on the horizon and places will be closed for the season.
The only thing that I would have liked to find are newspaper reports of weddings, although I don't suppose everyone had their wedding mentioned in the paper. I do have one which is Hilda's when she married Tennyson Middleton. I have the actual paper that the wedding report appeared in. Walter senior sent it to his nephew Sidney, Sidney being my grandfather.
Anyway have a wonderful Christmas and a Happy New Year.
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"The only thing that I would have liked to find are newspaper reports of weddings",
Hi Girl Guide,
For this information you could take a look through our excellent 'Papers Past' website....
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz
Good luck....
Minniehaha. :)
-
Thanks for that Minnie - have a great Christmas.
-
You too.......
Minniehaha. :D :D
-
Just wanted to let everyone know that I now have email contact with a living relative.
As C S Lewis said in one of his Narnia books - Onward and Upward!
Merry Christmas to you all.
:) :) :) :)
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Congratulations. :) Merry xmas and a happy new year with contact with your relative.
Cheers
KHP
-
KHP,good to see Miss Puss with her Christmas hat on ;D ;D
Cheers Janette
-
Congratulations on solving your mystery. :) 8)
Spades
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Hi... I know I am about 4 years too late but just wondering if any of you are still around? Not really sure how this site works or if this one is still open?...
I am a granddaughter of Frederick England and Charlotte E England (nee Arbuckle)
Frederick died when my mother was 12 (ish) so our knowledge is pretty small (mine until today basically stopped at him) but I have just spent like 3 hours reading through your forum and filled in a lot of gaps.
Anyway I just wanted to say thank you all so much also was a bit curious where you guys fit into my tree... :) perhaps we could chat?
Thank you. x
Becca
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Hello Becca
Welcome to Rootschat :)
Yes I am indeed still around. The England family is quite large. Walter England was my great grandfather's brother and emigrated to New Zealand in the early 1900s.
I have got a lot of information on the family which is tucked away at the moment. Was there something you particularly wished to know?
Looking at a tree I have, I'm guessing that you are descended from Frederick England born 1922 in Rotorua and died in 1971 in Auckland.
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Yes that Frederick, though I wasn't aware that he was born in Rotorua, I assumed Auckland, I don't have a birth date for him?
Walter England 1866–1938's brother? Can I ask how many siblings he had? I have that he was married to someone... Alice lucy? or Henrietta? and had my great great grandfather and then Walter remarried to Eva Emma Clarke and had a whole bunch of other kids (including the one who died on the boat... your forum was so amazing at filling in gaps there) I think I have probably missed a bit as it was 2-4am when I was looking at it...
I don't know where to begin with questions haha this part of the family is like still very uncharted for us.
Thanks :)
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Walter is the second child of three born to James and Elizabeth. My great grandfather James was the eldest, then Walter and then Charlotte.
James stayed in the UK and Charlotte married a Walter Southcott and lived in China.
I have that Walter married Henrietta Hall in 1889 then after she died he married Eva Clarke in 1897. In 1905 the family emigrated to New Zealand.
For some reason I cannot find a birth record for Frederick b. 1921. If you can find a death certificate for Fred then it should give details of his parents.
I'll see if I can find a burial record for Frederick, but as it is less than 50 years since he died, not sure if I will find it.
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Burial
https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/cemeteries/Pages/RecordDetails.aspx?recordId=D42032D7A62BB369B6739B929E8775FF
Added, this info was posted in reply 60. Sorry MH
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I have found a burial record for him.
Died 27 February 1971
Date of birth is stated as unknown, age is given as 49 but how accurate was that I wonder?
He is buried at Waikumete Cemetery, Protestant Division C, Row 2, Plot 75
It would be interesting to obtain his marriage certificate and see what that says. He appears to have married Charlotte in 1949.
I am assuming that you are resident in NZ and therefore would be in a better position to check out his marriage.
The rule for family history is to start with what you know to be correct, i.e. yourself, and work backwards obtaining the relevant certificates to verify what you find.
I'm sure there will be plenty of New Zealanders here who will be willing to help you with Frederick. :D
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It would be interesting to obtain his marriage certificate and see what that says. He appears to have married Charlotte in 1949.
It is better to purchase "printouts" as they are cheaper and often contain more information
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/paymentsandproducts
Cheers Janette
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Hello Aliikai17,
Here is the death:
2004/16316 England Charlotte Elsie 19 March 1925
And cemetery details [photograph included]....
https://www.dunedin.govt.nz/services/cemeteries/cemeteries-search?recordid=117967&type=Ashes%20Burial
If you would like the newspaper death notice for Charlotte, I can send it to you. However you will need to put up one more post to enable me to use the personal messaging system. Just a smiley :) will do.....
Minniehaha.
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Sorry have been away,
I tried to get in touch with my Aunty as she is the oldest daughter of Charlotte/Frederick and my mother thinks she might know some stuff or possibly have some documents but I haven't been successful thus far.
I know a wee bit about Charlotte as she was living with us when she died. I was 15. I would be interested in seeing the newspaper notice, please Minniehaha. :)
Is there any information on anytime before James and Elizabeth?
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Newspaper death notices sent as requested.....
Minniehaha.
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Re Walter Frederick England 1866-1938. His son, Walter England, married my gt x2 Aunt. Angelina Faber, nee Logan's youngest daughter, Sarah Isabel Faber, 1914-1981. They had three children, 1939-1944. The first born, Leonard Walter England. born 17 Sept. 1939. died 10 April 1991. Ash Burial, Waikumete Cemetery. age 51. I am searching for the youngest child. J E, born circa 1940's. I need to get a DNA from her if possible. Sadly, with Lockdown. I can not access any Research Facilities. in Auckland. Also. I have been looking at the Family of Henrietta May Hall. I have Census from 1841, 1851. 1871, 1881. that I can send, if you are interested.
Edited in accordance with RootsChat policy of not publishing details of living people here, or details of people who may still be living.
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Hello, welcome to Rootschat....
Will of Walter Frederick England: [died 1949]
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=9363584&digital=yes
His son:
1959/20502 England Walter 45Y
His will: Ages of children given.....
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=14752914&digital=yes
Divorce:
https://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/ViewFullItem.do?code=22647374
1981/41133 England Sarah Isabel 19 September 1914
Cemetery details:
https://www.aucklandcouncil.govt.nz/cemeteries/Pages/RecordDetails.aspx?recordId=62A5C3F8D36985FF86A22BAD17B6C20F
When Auckland library re-opens you could request a scan of the death notice for Sarah Isabel England. This may perhaps provide the surname and other details of the daughter you seek.
Minniehaha.
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That is my plan. Curse on this Lockdown. I need a DNA from a female linked on the female line to a female born 1828 in Ontario, Canada. My DNA should also be a match to her, born c. 1944]. If [she] is no longer with us, I hope she had a daughter. I maybe a 'pioneer' on Roots Chat, but have been involved with this most wonderous hobby for in excess of 20 years. I will soon learn how to work my way around this site I hope. danfan
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Edited in accordance with RootsChat policy of not publishing details of living people here, or details of people who may still be living. This is to protect all concerned from spam, identity abuse, internet abuse, etc, etc.
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Minniehaha.
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Mea Culpa. Please accept my apology, will endevour not to do that again. danfan
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Hi Danfan, and welcome ;D
It's ok, we've all done it in our enthusiasm. 8) 8) It's just one of RootsChat's no-no's, that's all. ;)
Good luck with your research,
Spades