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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: davidgoldburn on Saturday 28 November 15 15:11 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
I have asked this question on another area. But will try here too.
James J Williams - on 1939 record b 29 8 1893
Bought birth certificate for James Williams Born 29 8 1893 Lambeth 23 Newport Street mother Annie Williams father Henry Williams potter's labourer.
Married Winnie Gilmartin 1920 Bundoran Mother Josephine Williams father Henry Williams
Death 1963 Bermondsey living with Sylvia M Williams 56 Scovell Road.
I cannot find a James Williams in 1901 or 1911 census with mother Annie or Josephine. Peeps kindly found him on 1920 electoral roll at 10 maze ponds with Annie and Henry.
But cannot find him before.
Help!
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Hi there is a James 7 b Lambeth with father Henry b 1863 London occ Potters Lab, wife Johanna on RG13/363/35/21?
Keyboard86
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I had found that too.
I was trying to convince my self that Annie was a Josephine was actually a Johanna.
On 1920 electoral roll there is a Henry Jnr living in house too. But he is not listed there.
There is also no wedding record for Johanna and Henry?
I may have talked myself out of what is blindingly obvious!
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henry and Johanna make sense, but I also can;t find them in 1891 or a marriage - if they did marry I think it likely they think married later than they claim in 1911, given the gap in 1901 between the eldest son and the next, with the eldest being born when Johanna would have been just 18
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Also do you guys think that the James in 1901 is also the same one in the work house? In December 1901 and 1902?
The children match, but the parent are not there? But they are all back together in 1911? - James who we think was in the DCLI from 1909.
Thanks for the help/confidence I have gone the right way!
Dave
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Hi Dave,
Just to clarify-on the 1893 birth cert-does it say mmn was WILLIAMS too?
Maureen
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They seem to be the right ones in the workhouse - but where recorded only in for very short periods (1-2 days), so possibly either ill or picked up due to an issue at home?
Did you note from the 1902 entry that they're Roman Catholics?
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I'm guessing 13th December was a bad day in Family...same day two years apart.
Annie's maiden name is Stewart which matches the Josephine Stewart name in the Irish record of the wedding.
RC makes sense as it was a Catholic wedding in Ireland.
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Please see attached.
It must be noted I'm not 100% sure this is the right James Williams, the father matches as does the birth date!
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If it is Kate, James & William in 1902, where's Rose?
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This family is confusing! I'm guessing rose was still with Mum?
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There's a Johanna Stewart the right age b Westminster on the 1871 census...
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oooh ok, thats a start. She should be in the westminster area?
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Name: Johanna Williams
Birth Date: abt 1864
Date of Registration: Dec 1943
Age at Death: 79
Registration district: Bermondsey
Inferred County: London
Volume: 1d
Page: 65
I think this might be her death certificate...
The family was definitely in Bermondsey...
The birth is roughly right?
Thank you ever so much
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I saw that, but in theory there's a Johanna Williams in southwark on the 1945 & 1946 electoral registers, living with an Ellen
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Talking of electoral rolls....
If you look at Annie and Henry Williams at 10 Maze Pond. They are there in 1919 with Henry Jnr, in 1920 James appears- which correlates with the wedding data- he registered his home there in 1920- by 1921 James is gone- he is in India with the DCLI.
The big question I have is, this Annie the Annie on the birth certificate. If so where does Henry JNR come from?
Or is this Annie and Henry a completely different Annie and Henry... because again I cant find a Annie and Henry with a Henry JNR...
Oh what fun I am having.
So thats why I am dubious of Johanna reappearing in on the electoral rolls!
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Mabel...
You might be on to something!
Name: Annie Williams
Year: 1930
County or Borough: Southwark
Ward or Division/Constituency: Bermondsey
Street address: 10 MAZE POND-Could
Annie Williams is living with a Ellen and Henry...
Ohhh
Pieces of a puzzle!
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Hi Mabel,
Do you think that a women would record her self as Annie on a birth certificate, Johanna on the census, Annie on 15 years of electoral rolls, and then once her husband had died refer to herself has Johanna again?
Ellen is there in the 1911 census age 7 which matches. So one could assume the daughter is living with the elderly mother in 1945/46. James - the son and brother is now living in Queens Building on the other side of Bermondsey.
Am I confusing two sets of family's believing one set is mine, when actually it isnt.
I have got a Johanna Williams which could easily be a Josephine when transcribed/miss heard in ireland. I have got a Henry Williams as the father.
However how do we square the fact that Johanna is also officially recording her self as Annie? Unless they are two different people?
Help
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I have an ancestor who always refers to himself as Henry on censuses but he's John on birth, marriage and death certs (turns out henry was his theirs name!)
And another who didn't use any of her "official" forenames in every day life (including tax returns)
On this site I've come across a number of women who interchange between Hannah and Anna/Annie and similar. Johanna isn't far off.
And in the end it depends on who actually provided the information for eac registration/document - she might use Annie, her husband Johanna (or vice versa)
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Hi Mabel,
So working on that theory...when did Johanna die? I think Henry dies in 43...however so does Johanna....
There are no Johanna's dying in the late 40's in bermomdsey. Only the 1 in 43...
Hey ho!
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The Johanna that is recorded in 1945 and 1946 clearly died in 1943!
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Yes, definitely her! Can only assume the 1945 & 46 registers were a little inaccurate post war!
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Surely Ellen would have to fill the form in each year?
#confused her mum was dead for 3-4 years!
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Hi All,
Looking at the 13 Dec 1902 record of James and family going in to the work house. The magistrate has sent them there. is there any way of finding out the Magistrate records for James, Kate and William?
Cheers
David
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Hi All,
I got the death certificate of Henry Williams who died in 1943 at the age of 17. Yes he lived at 99 White Grounds Estate, but his occupation was former Pipe maker.
Is a pipe maker part of pottery? Or former labourer?
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Hi All,
The annie steward in the 1881 wedding is a completely different person to the Johanna Steward birth certificate from 1864.
So is the Annie Stewart(d) on my James Williams birth certificate someone else....
Will post pictures later.
Cheers
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Hi All,
Slowly getting more information :)
This is all from St Georges Cathedral in Lambeth.
I will leave this information here, just because someone might search Williams and find the relavant relation!
John Williams was born on 12 February 1889 and baptised on 7 April 1889; son of Henry Williams and Joanna Williams, formerly Stewart.
Godmother: Joanna Donovan
[No address]
Joanna Williams was born on 17 October 1887 and baptised on 11 December 1887; daughter of Henry Williams and Ann [in the Latin Anna] Williams, formerly Stewart.
Godfather: James Carroll
[No address]
James Williams was born on 29 August 1893 and baptised on 15 October 1893; son of Henry and Joanna Williams formerly Stuart. Godparents: James Scanlan; Margaret Collins.
Elizabeth Kate Williams [fortunately this priest put all the names in English - I had been looking for Catarina i.e. Catherine and hadn't expected to find a Kate] was born on 16 May 1891 and baptised on 28 June 1891; daughter of Henry William's [[sic] and Joanna formerly Joanna Steward [sic]. Godparents: John Steward; Mary Brown.
William Henry Williams was born on 14 December 1895 and baptised 12 January 1896; son of Henry and Joanna Williams formerly Stuart. Godparents: James Patrick Tobin; Anne Tobin.
Rose Williams was born on 10 March 1899 and baptised on 2 April 1899; daughter of Henry and Joanna Williams formerly Stewart ["Stuart" has been crossed through and the correction initialled P.H.M. - the priest, Peter Hugh Mason].
Godparents: Henry Walker; Jane Walker.
At the bottom of the entry is added, in Latin: this Rose Williams married Frederic John Hazell at S[t.] Gert[rude] S[outh] Bermondsey on 23 May 1920.
The address has been added in the margin: 1 Red Cross Place.
Edw. Daniel Williams was born on 14 June 1901 and baptised on 14 July 1901; son of Henry and Joanna Williams formerly Stewart.
Godparent: Helen Cairney.
The address has again been added in the margin but I can't read the initial letter: 18 [ ]rundy Bldgs. Boro[ugh]. "G" at least would be pronounceable but it doesn't look like a "G" and I can't find a likely address at this sort of date in the "Borough" (this is an area around Borough High St.).
Ellen Williams [called Hellena in the Latin] was born on 6 December 1903 [not 1904] and baptised on 22 January 1904; daughter of Henry and Joanna Williams formerly Stewart.
Godparent: Annorah Daley. [A preceding "H" has been crossed through and the "A" of Annorah is capitalised, so her name was probably Ann Norah].
The address has been added in the margin: 58 Surrey Row, Blackfriars. This must mean Surrey Row off Blackfriars Road, not Blackfriars north of the river.
Cheers David
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Has any one got any bright ideas of how to look for my mysterious Annie/Johanna Steward/t?
Thanks in advance.
David
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Knowing the family were Catholic, surely this must be her on 1871 Census at 5 Cottage Court, St. John the Evangelist, Westminster, London:
Thomas Stewart 50 born Ireland
Margaret Stewart 38 ditto
William Stewart 15 born Westminster, London
John Stewart 12 ditto
Jane Stewart 18 ditto
Johanna Stewart 7 ditto
I note her birthdate is said to be 14/2/1864 and later census also states she was born in Westminster.
This could be her birth entry:
Johannah Steward June qtr.1864 Westminster mmn Donovan (per GRO index)
(her brothers John and William also registered as Steward mmn Donovan)
1881 Census still living at St. John the Evangelist, London
Thomas Steward 50 (same age as on 1871 census?) Labourer born Ireland
Ann Steward 50 born Ireland
Anne (or Annie) Steward 17 born London
Now is wife Ann the previously named Margaret who has also changed her name or has Thomas remarried??
But then again: 1861 Census, St. Margarets, Westminster
Thomas Steward 30 born Limerick, Ireland
Jane Steward 25 born Cork, Ireland
Jane Steward 8 born Westminster, London
William Steward 4 ditto
John Steward 3 ditto
James Steward 1 ditto
Margaret Donovan 70 mother in law born Cork, Ireland
So, from census it looks as if Thomas' age in 1871 should have been 40 not 50 and are his 3 'wives' Jane, Margaret and Ann all the same person!! I think they are.
Marriage: Dec.qtr.1851 St Giles, London - 2 of many on the same page are a Thomas Steward and Margaret Donovan.
The last census indicates Johanna/Annie and Henry Williams were married ca.1880.
Could this possibly be their marriage?:
Harry Williams and Annie Steward Dec.qtr.1881 Lambeth
They would only have been ca.17 but possibly due to prospective birth of son Thomas bc.1882!!
Certainly sounds like the surname was actually Steward rather than Stewart (which I guess could sound the same in an Irish accent).
Annette
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Hi Annette,
Working backwards-
The birthdate comes from the 1939 census.
Henry Williams 07 Apr 1865 Male General Labourer Retired Married 113 1
Johannah Williams 14 Feb 1864 Female Wife Unpaid Domestic Married 113 2
Ellen Williams 06 Dec 1904 Female Hospital Cleaner Single 113 3
I have got a copy of the harry marrying annie wedding certificate, I will dig it out and scan it tonight- I believe from memory her dad on the certificate is not Thomas- So I ruled it out. There is nothing to say they didnt "run away south of the river to get married"?
I had also got to the Margaret being a donnovan, do you think she was Margaret Jane? And when the MIL arrives she reverts to Jane on the census?
I am guessing that Jane-Anne is an easy confusion to the census gatherer especially with a thick irish accent?
The other confusing thing is that Thomas Williams born in westminster in 1883 there are two- I got the one with no maiden name from the GRO records- he was a illegitimate child rather than anything to do with a Henry-
All very interesting.
Thank you, i will add the 1881 and 61 census's to my tree!
Cheers
David
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The area the Steward's lived in came under the registration district of St. Geo. Hanover Square and wonder if this is the birth for Johanna/Henry's son Thomas:
Thomas Williams Mar.qtr.1883 St. George Hanover Square mothers maiden Steward.
Still doesn't help with finding parents marriage though and I've searched all over England not just in London.
Annette
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Hi Annette,
OOhh that is a possibility, I was looking in Westminster! Will order it and see what it says :)
I get the impression that Henry and Annie/Johanna never got married?!? But clearly they were very catholic and did things properly, as all the children were baptised!
Will look at the marriage cert again tonight, there is a reason why I discounted it...and I cant remember what it is now.
Thanks again.
David
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The wedding certificate for Annie Steward ages 19 of 11 Owl street has her dad has Harry Steward Who is a labourer. That doesn't match Thomas- Who we assume to be her da
Henry Williams age 21 is a potter- which does match some of the census's later lives at 25 agnes street and his dad is William Williams- a Painter.
Wedding was 10th of Oct 1881.
The age of 19 makes her birth date of 1882- which doesn't match
Henry is supposedly 21 which makes a birthdate 1860- a lot older than what the census's and the 1939 record.
The witnesses were Edwin Hall and Catherine Cormack.
Hope that helps?
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Thanks for posting this. Shame it's not the right one but good to have the details recorded on this thread should anyone else reading this come up with the same suggestion.
Hopefully the birth certificate you've sent for is the right one.
However, it certainly looks like they didn't marry - at least not in the UK.
Annette
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Thomas Williams born 17th December 1882 21 Douglas Street
Father Henry Williams
Mother Annie Williams nee Steward
Potter Labourer
That is definitely the older brother :)
Thank you Annette
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To add to the Williams info.
William John Hazell married Rose Williams 22nd May 1920 at St Gertrude Church.
Both living at 217 Southwark Park Road, Bermondsey.
The catholic cathedral data suggested that it was a Frederic John Hazell that married Rose in 1920...I cant find any Frederick marrying a Rose... other than William.. hey ho..
Leaving this out here just encase someone is researching the Hazell Family!
Cheers
David