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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: andytilley on Friday 20 November 15 10:23 GMT (UK)
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I have a family member who I 99% know re-enlisted into the RAF in 1920. (We need to seek his service records as it appears he was in the RAF for nearly 30 years and being ex services my self, I know this unusual but not against regulations)
He was married in 1923, however his certificate shows him as an "instrument maker"
I have other bits of information from his RAF days pertaining to him working on instruments so it sort of ties in.
My query here is.
My own father is shown on my birth certificate as his Rank and service number in the correct column.
Is it unusual for Military personnel to miss this information on a legal certificate or would "instrument maker" be allowed or was it some regulation during the mid war times he was not allowed to disclose?
second
Military records. The oldest living relative to get military records would be my mother in law where we are trying to get records of her father in the above RAF.
However she is in an old folks home, not particularly compos mentis. she is 90 just gone and wouldn't understand why we are asking her to sign all these forms and things. after just selling her house for her care etc we think it would traumatise her further
Would the next relative in line be able to get the records. he is the grandson and eldest in the line of family. Do MoD really check that in depth?
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1.You need to order his record to confirm there was no break in service
2. In theory if her daughter has not obtained legal guardianship of her mother's affairs I do not see how this is different. That said I forged my mother's signature from the age of 12. So either get the mother to sign, or forge her signature and save £30; or apply as if the mother is dead and pay £30. You only have to supply a death certificate of the service person, not all NoKs in between them
Ken
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Read the instructions on the veterans website. Only the spouse can get the records for free, anyone else will have to pay the £30. If your mother in law's father died more than twenty five years ago no NOK consent is needed.
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What do you mean by re-enlisted in 1920? The RAF was only formed on 1 Apr 1918. Was he in the RFC before 1920? If you have his service number, a bit of googling can give you a pretty good idea of when he enlisted.
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He was in the Army during WW1 and demobbed in October 1919 only to re-enlist into the RAF in 1920. That's what is written in red on the front of his demob to reserve certificate.
Hence the reason we trying to get his service records, it will possibly cost us double, as he was in two services. and we only know the service number on his army records.
We don't even have his RAF number which makes it difficult
Anyone have any ideas on how to get hold of service numbers without any certification etc
We will have to try and see if we can get hold of his death certificate - Is that possible?
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You may find his service number in the AIR78 index at http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/r/C2132 (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/browse/r/r/C2132). Use Next 30 on the right until you reach the surname range of interest then click 'Details' and 'Add to basket' to enable you to download and view it locally for free. Less useful if you have a common surname/initials.
Assuming he died in England or Wales and you need a death certificate, you should order it online direct from the General Register Office http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/ (http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/). The information you will need to provide is explained there.
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You should not need a death certificate if he fought in WW1. Even HMG knows that the last veteran died a few years ago.
Ken
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Thanks all
You would think that with the name "George Carruthers" it wouldn't be that hard to find information. However his service information is proving elusive.
I don't want to waste 30 quid not knowing I have the right man and tracing his service number is proving tough to do. I know where he was based on some occasions even have a fair idea where he died, but as far as his records go I am, at my stage of genealogy ...stumped of where to go next!
I thought of back tracing him if that's possible. I know where he was based in Singapore, so I have teamed up on an RAF site and am waiting to see if anyone can help. Other than that has anyone any other ideas where to point next?
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Service records after c1920 are classed as private. Only the MOD have legal access to them. Anyone else cannot have the same information without breaking privacy laws. If you do not have his service number the MOD may say they cannot help you. Supplying his date of birth may be enough, but you may get the MOD on a bad day.
If he was in the RAF for 30 years you would expect him to have received a long service medal. If you can find this award list it should give his service number. So start your RAF contacts on that path, or ask on the British Medal Forum.
Ken
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Service records after c1920 are classed as private. Only the MOD have legal access to them. Anyone else cannot have the same information without breaking privacy laws. If you do not have his service number the MOD may say they cannot help you. Supplying his date of birth may be enough, but you may get the MOD on a bad day.
If he was in the RAF for 30 years you would expect him to have received a long service medal. If you can find this award list it should give his service number. So start your RAF contacts on that path, or ask on the British Medal Forum.
Ken
FYI
The LSGC is given to the RAF when they reach 15 years, even if they have lowered conduct
The RN is a different matter where if in the 15 you have any conduct rating under VG( Very good) then you can get to the 15 and still not get your gong( Medal)
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Have you checked the RAF service records on FindMyPast?
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Yes I have, and they don't seem to come up with much.
None of the records match his name, DOB or his attestation date.
His army demob certificate states he re-enlisted in 1920 and all records on FindMyPast direct an earlier date.
Some of them in 1916 which baffles me as the RAF wasn't formed until 1918
I went through AIR78 and managed to find about 15 entries under his name. But there again this isn't conclusive as not all the records are complete I am led to believe.
As I am new to the hobby, it is becoming slightly frustrating, however patience is a virtue seeing some on here have been doing it for over 30 years and still searching.
I recently found TWO naval writers made an incorrect entry on my uncles service medal records so it goes to show even military can get it wrong
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"His army demob certificate states he re-enlisted in 1920 and all records on FindMyPast direct an earlier date.
Some of them in 1916 which baffles me as the RAF wasn't formed until 1918".
ScOOp mentioned that he might have been in the RFC (ie Army) which became the RAF in 1918. Just wondered whether you had picked up on that?
Imber
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"His army demob certificate states he re-enlisted in 1920 and all records on FindMyPast direct an earlier date.
Some of them in 1916 which baffles me as the RAF wasn't formed until 1918".
ScOOp mentioned that he might have been in the RFC (ie Army) which became the RAF in 1918. Just wondered whether you had picked up on that?
Imber
Thanks yes I did,
I have posted his demob certificate
He demobbed to the Army Z reserve in 1919 and as he was still a reservist, I guess he had to get permission to enlist into the newly formed ( and possibly quite glamorous) RAF
He was attested into the SWB regiment in 1916 and called up 1917.
He was injured in battle and saw active service as we can see from his decorations etc.
I have some more research to do in that respect, but from the time lines, I think I am right in saying he wasn't in the RFC, as I have records of him in the SWB regiment
Andy
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Z Reserve was disbanded in March 1920. So he would not have required permission to join the RAF in April.
Ken
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Other that the note on his demobilization, do you have any direct evidence he was actually in the RAF?
Edit: I wonder who was working out his age in 1928 at the bottom of demobilization image.
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Other that the note on his demobilization, do you have any direct evidence he was actually in the RAF?
Edit: I wonder who was working out his age in 1928 at the bottom of demobilization image.
quite a few photographs of him as a Staff Sgt in Singapore and Egypt. he was how can we say, not accepted back into the family well when he came back. or as the mother in law put it, "im telling you thats the chinese girl, Anna Mae Wong or whatever her name is"......followed by some expletives etc.
Turns out he "may" have gotten involved with a lady of Singaporean origination whilst serving out there. so the feelings were strong and the pictures of him out there are verified by her as her Father in law. Unfortunately my Father in law died some time ago so cannot verify any further as he was an only child.
We have a picture of him dancing with the said "anna Mae " whilst in mess dress with medals. We know from records that he had WW1 standard medals but we are struggling with RAF Records as these are after 1920 and subject to the 100 year laws? not only that there are more than 2 medals on show but are far too small to pick out what they are
we can try and get his records, but we are on a dwindling line not knowing his service number.
Its not making it easy so I know his station in Singapore so may try and back track if possible.
I seem to be going round in circles so may take stock of what I know and follow those leads, but by god, miss marple would have a run for her money on this one haha
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Z Reserve was disbanded in March 1920. So he would not have required permission to join the RAF in April.
Ken
If that is the case why would they even need to annotate his certificate as re-enlisted in the RAF July 1920?
I am not sure of the time period for reservist enlisted men was back then. When I left the Royal Navy i was required to do 3 years reservist time
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The Z Reserve was special. It was formed after the Armistice in case fighting started again. It was disbanded once it was clear there would be no more fighting. Men did not join for a set period like other reserves.
The discharge certified had two uses. It was to help a discharged man find work, and to claim any benefits there might be. In both cases they would need to show he was serving again. He would have received a new one when he left the RAF.
Ken