RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: dustyrover on Wednesday 18 November 15 08:56 GMT (UK)
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Hello. I would like some help please to find information on the wife of Schames MORRIS, a Russian Jew who moved from Russia to Scotland & then to New Zealand. Schames migrated to New Zealand (Port Chalmers) via the “Cartsburn” departing Glasgow 8th April 1874, occ listed as a Tailor. Also listed as 'single'. He lived in Dunedin, Christchurch & Wellington. He then moved to Australia in c.1880.
Schames married in 1876 however I am unable to find any information (including birth or possible immigration) for his wife as her name is spelt differently on every record I can find. (I think the correct spelling is Toube)
It is spelt the following ways:
1876 m/c - Tovbi PEERIE
1919 d/c – Tombe P HARRIS (Harris possibly father's name)
1876 b/c of child – Toby
1878 b/c of child – Toyb
1880 b/c of child – Soube
1884 b/c of child - Toube Pearl
The information I am specifically looking for is:
• Date of birth
• Place of birth
• Name of parents
• Name of siblings
• Possible immigration to New Zealand
• birth records for 2 daughters born in New Zealand – Esther R MORRIS born c.1876/9. Catherine (Kate) H MORRIS born c.1878/81
Thank you for any assistance.
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NSW BDM
death
2657/1919 MORRIS Tombe P parents Harris / - @ PENRITH
should give marriage details, birthplace, children.
birth
2710/1884 MORRIS Pearl parents Schames / Toube @ Sydney
this certificate should list previous issue, mothers age and birthplace.
There is a naturalisation file for Shames MORRIS at National Archives of Australia.
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BDM NSW death
15142/1948 MORRIS Joseph parents Shamus / Toba @ Kogarah
18341/1947 MORRIS Solomon parents Shamas / Toube @ Waverley
SMH 16 Sep 1947
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/18044658?
and brother Asher....
SMH 26 Jul 1938
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/17477677?
death of Asher....
16581/1938 MORRIS Asher Jeremiah parents Shamas / 61 yrs @ Kogarah
keep going with SMH search with Asher MORRIS to find family....
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Thank you all for your replies.
I have all that information however I was hoping that the New Zealand RootsChat community could perhaps find something locally that I can not access as I do not live in New Zealand.
Many thanks.
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Hello,
NZ BDM appears to have the surname as SCHAMES, not MORRIS. ???
1878/4339 Schames Hanna Toyb Morris
1876/17601 Schames Jeremiah Asher Toby Morris
www.dia.govt.nz/births-deaths-and-marriages
Minniehaha.
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Likewise surname at his marriage............
Registration Number Bride's Given Name(s) Name(s) Bride's Family Name
Tovbi Peerie
Groom's Given Name(s) Groom's Family Name
1876/1010 Morris Schames
Minniehaha.
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Thank you all for your replies.
I agree that the name was inverted.
I still haven't found any more information on his wife - Toube.
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Notes on the Cartsburn arrival
Family Search lists Maurice SCHAMUS Tailor on Cartsburn "Nationality" Larnarkshire.
On arrival in Otago Cartsburn immigrants severely stretched the reception resources of Dunedin. There is no Passenger list in Papers Past for Cartsburn or the other ships which arrived in July 1874. Toube PEERIE does not appear to have travelled on the Cartsburn under any variation of that name.
The Cartsburn was not the happiest of immigrant voyages and one passenger was awarded fifty pounds for assault on the high seas committed by crew members.
Signal
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Just a thought........
You could ask for a look up or purchase an 'Intention to Marry' document in respect of Schames and Peerie.
This would provide the length of residence for each in the area where they were to be married. Not however the length of residence in New Zealand. But this information could still be helpful.......
Archives New Zealand holds Notices of Intention to Marry records for the whole of New Zealand from 1856-1956. These are indexed for the period 1856-1881
www.archway.archives.govt.nz
Minniehaha.
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Thank you SignalHill.
...& we complain about waiting at the airport. Travel must have been horrendous.
I did find Schames on the Cartsburn however I nearly missed it as his name was changed.
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Minniehaha. I followed the link you gave me & it directed me to Open Access however at a Reading Room in Wellington. I have sent off an email to the Archives office asking how I can access it (hoping that it is not in 1875 - the year before they actually married which was 1876).
Thanks for the lead.
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Hi
You wont be able to search for their ITM online,Minniehaha's link was to show you where the notices are kept,here is a bit about them
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=347615.msg221996#msg221996
A Wellington Archives look up would be needed to get the information suggested
Cheers Janette
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Hello,
In your first message you have shown the following:
1876 m/c - Tovbi PEERIE
However as your subject line includes "married 1876 in ? Dunedin", it has occurred to me that perhaps you do not have the marriage certificate*?
The actual date of marriage was 11.4.1876.
[*It is best to obtain a printout as this is cheaper than a certificate and may contain more information. I liken it to a photocopy of the registration document. Can also be e-mailed to you.]
Minniehaha.
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Janette, Thanks for the link. Very interesting information.
I hope I receive a response from the Wellington Archives once everyone is back at work in the New Year.
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Minniehaha, You are correct in that I do not have a copy of the m/c.
May I ask from where did you obtain the marriage date?
Thanks for your help.
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Go to the New Zealand Resources & Offers page and here you will find the following:
Births, Deaths and Marriages Online. An excellent site. Click on Historical Records and then choose the type of record you want. Be aware that wildcard searching is not available and that due to privacy reasons there are date limitations to searching. By narrowing the search dates you can discover precisely the date of the event you want to find.
https://www.bdmonline.dia.govt.nz/
See this topic by TwiggyTree for a guide to effective use of this resource:
Births, Deaths and Marriages Historical Record Dates. http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,582147.new.html#new
Ooops! maybe a glitch in reaching this last website?.........
Minniehaha
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Try this link
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=605197.msg4337810#msg4337810
Cheers Janette
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Hi Dustyrover,
I can get the Intention to Marry Notice for you although it won't be until February. I have to fulfill a number of other inquiries first.
Spades
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Thank you Spades - that would be great; Feb is fine - whenever you can get into the Reading Room.
The details are:
Archives reference: ADAQ 8937 BDM20/21
Intention to Marry for Tovbi Peerie Harris and Morris Schames, Dunedin, 11 April 1876
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Hi Dustyrover,
Here is your ITM at last.
Intention to Marry Notice. Archives NZ Ref: BDM 20/21 1876 Christchurch p.626/4035.
Dated 11 April: Morris SCHAMES, bachelor, a Hawker aged 28 years living at Christchurch, length of residence 7 months, intends to marry Toobi PEERIE, a widow aged 28 years living at Christchurch, length of residence 16 months, in the Registrar’s Office, Christchurch.
Spades
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Dear Spades
Thank you so much for taking the time & effort to find this for me. It is very much appreciated.
I now know that Toube's first child was probably not her 2nd husband's however I cannot find the birth under the NZ BDM - I have just spend some time trying all the variations of her name & Toube's & Harris & Peerie & Tvi-Hirsch.
I also tried to find the death of her 1st husband under Harris & Peerie & Tvi-Hirsch - but to no avail .
I read the info on searching the NZ BDM & there does not appear to be a wildcard entry.
Thank you again for your assistance.
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My pleasure. :)
No, NZ BDM doesn't have a wildcard function, but perhaps Beg Clonrode might be able to assist with a search. I suggest sending a PM, and tell him I sent you! ;D
Spades
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Hello Spades :)
I've been reading this thread but haven't come up with anything worth posting except the following NZ birth details not yet given in the thread...
1880/18563 - MORRIS, Solomon - mother: Soube father: Shemus
Post-1875 so should include mother's maiden name, age and birthplace.
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I have two questions though...
1) were either of the two certificates mentioned in reply #1 purchased
2) what info is known about the "Esther R Morris b.1876-ish" mentioned in the opening post.
Is it known what the "R" stands for.
Regards
Beg
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Thank you Beg for your response.
Answers to your 2 qts:
Certificate Purchase
I have not purchased any certificates yet as I was unsure what extra information they would yield (if any).
After your comment that "Post-1875 so should include mother's maiden name, age and birthplace" I will investigate the cost of purchasing "1880/18563 - MORRIS, Solomon - mother: Soube father: Shemus".
Esther Rose MORRIS
(b.c.1876 ?Dunedin, New Zealand - d. 24 Feb 1912 Narrandera, NSW, Australia).
Birth Name: Ester-Roza TZVI-HIRSH. m. Sydney 1894 to Moses Isaac (Isaac) SHAPIRA (?? - 10 March 1940 Queanbeyan NSW Australia). Birth Name: Mosheh-Yitzchak SHABSI
Thank you for any forthcoming assistance.
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Hello Dustyrover...
For what it's worth, I would risk ordering the 1919 NSW death certificate mentioned in reply #1 as opposed to ordering the 1880 NZ birth certificate that I mentioned in my reply.
NSW BDM death
2657/1919 MORRIS Tombe P parents HARRIS @ PENRITH
There should be a lot more information on the 1919 death certificate. Whether or not there is, and whether or not it is accurate, is why I said it's a risk.
The price is similar ($20) for either certificate. You should receive the NZ certificate within a week. The NSW certificate usually takes 2-4 weeks.
If you go with the NZ certificate order a printout which will cost NZ$20.60 This is a basically a photocopy of the relevant page from the birth register.
If you go with the NSW certificate you will need to use a transcription agent. A full certificate transcription cost A$20. I've used the following agent a few times. Apart from once, they did what they said they do - which is really all you want.
http://www.transcriptions.com.au/ (http://www.transcriptions.com.au/)
Regards
Beg
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Esther Rose MORRIS
(b.c.1876 ?Dunedin, New Zealand - d. 24 Feb 1912 Narrandera, NSW, Australia).
Birth Name: Ester-Roza TZVI-HIRSH. m. Sydney 1894 to Moses Isaac (Isaac) SHAPIRA (?? - 10 March 1940 Queanbeyan NSW Australia). Birth Name: Mosheh-Yitzchak SHABSI
Looking at the HIRSH name in Dunedin I typed on autopilot HIRSCH I seem to have read and processed the name as "German Jewish" origin and then given it the spelling I would have expected. See how I [we ?] make mistakes. ???
I found a Gustav(e) HIRSCH who operated a Dye Works and cleaning Business in Dunedin from the 1860s
On NZ BDM Marriage index
Marriage
1866/8968 Ellen Louisa Hawkins [married] Gustav Hirsch
on the Birth Index - contrary to Historic Dates rules
1984/111202 Hirsch Elsie May [parents] Ellen Louisa & Gustav
My best guess is that the 1984 year is a keying error for 1874 [middle two digits having slipped up one]
The normal locking mechanism appears to kick in when I try to narrow the date. I also tried to key in what I believe is the correct year (1874) but this didn't work either.
This seems to be the nearest information possibly relevant to this family in Dunedin Records.
Signal
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Further to last post
I have now suggested to BDM that there might be a typo in their index and await their response.
Signal
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More on the HIRSCH s in Dunedin
Looking at the HIRSH name in Dunedin I typed on autopilot HIRSCH I seem to have read and processed the name as "German Jewish" origin and then given it the spelling I would have expected. See how I [we ?] make mistakes. ???
On NZ BDM Marriage index
Marriage
1866/8968 Ellen Louisa Hawkins [married] Gustav Hirsch
on the Birth Index - contrary to Historic Dates rules
1984/111202 Hirsch Elsie May [parents] Ellen Louisa & Gustav
My best guess is that the 1984 year is a keying error for 1874 [middle two digits having slipped up one]
The normal locking mechanism appears to kick in when I try to narrow the date. I also tried to key in what I believe is the correct year (1874) but this didn't work either.
Signal
BDM report
I have checked the birth record 1984/111202 and can confirm "1984" ... is correct.
... While registration usually happens at the same time as the event, in some cases - as with this birth - several years can elapse before registration takes place.
The reason for a later registration date could be:
1 The event was simply registered late
2 The event was registered again after the initial registration as the information changed e.g. an adoption occurred, or a re-registration - this is usually if the parents married after the birth
3 It was registered as more information became available.
As a search of the database also searches on the date of event, these records are returned if they meet your search criteria and comply with the historical data criteria.
I have now narrowed the birth to 1 Aug 1899 which gives several years later registration or ammendment as, say 85 years , ... or maybe a lifetime !
Also means if the marriage and birth are the same [parents] then the birth occurred 33 years after the marriage
Signal
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HIRSCH in Dunedin
Deaths
1923/8520 Hirsch Ellen Louisa 80Y
1926/4421 Hirsch Gustav 86Y
which questions the birth in 1899 of Elsie May HIRSCH
No death in NZ found for Elsie May HIRSCH
Signal