RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Em2 on Tuesday 17 November 15 01:55 GMT (UK)
-
Hello Everyone:
I've been working on the family tree for a few years now and have finally come to my brick wall. My family traces itself to a couple - Andrew Mulholland and Margery (Marjory) Leitch. They lived in Rutherglen, Scotland approx. 1840-1890.
I have been successful in locating their children, grand children and great grandchildren but have been unsuccessful in finding any records of Andrew and Margery beyond a birth date of (maybe) 1820 for Margery (1891 census).
I did find a death registry for an Andrew Mulholland for 1879 in Rutherglen. I haven't been able to confirm it's is him. Their son, William is my great grandfather. I am also having some problems finding confirmation of where he died. He and his wife, Sarah Baillie Mulholland arrived in Canada in 1910. On a grave marker in High Blantyre cemetery he is listed as dying in Feb 1920. I cannot locate his death registry on Scotland's people nor his wife Sarah's.
He immigrated to Cape Breton and the Nova Scotia vital statistics do not have a death registered for them. His son Thomas left CB and went to Cobalt Ont. I don't think he and his wife left to live with their son as Thomas was still in CB in 1926. His children's names were Andrew, Thomas, William, David, Charles, Margaret and George.
Sarah died in 1928.
The families that have intersected with the Mulholland are: Beecrofts, Lamonds, Baillies, Langs, McNeil, from Bonhill, Blantyre, Renfrew, Kilsyth.
The naming conventions are followed: males names are Andrew, David, William, Charles, Thomas and George. Females are: Isabella, Sarah, Margaret, Margery and Cecilia. Middle names are usually Baillie, Lang, Lamond or McNeil.
Family rumour has it that there is an Irish connection somewhere but I'm back to 1800s and I'm not finding it. I may find it around 1760 or earlier around 1715 when there was an influx of Irish workers into Scotland.
William's family immigrated to Nova Scotia beginning in 1903 and continued to move back and forth until 1930s. Only George Baillie Mulholland remained in Cape Breton. Thomas remained in Cobalt and Andrew immigrated to Tasmania in 1926. David died in Blantyre in 1945. Charles was killed in WWI in France.
Any ideas on how to break that wall? Thanks in advance.
-
Hello and welcome ;)
Is Margery described as widow in 1891census?
If you do not have Andrew with Margery or elsewhere on the 1881census and you have only found the one death reg for the area where they were living I would suggest sending for it .
Scottish certificates have much more information than English ones.
As Margery has possibly outlived him, she is likely to be the informant.The age at death will be shown. It is also possible that his occupation and parents names are included. You should then be able to confirm whether or not it is your Andrew that the death refers to.
Hope this helps.
-
Hi Em2 , welcome to RootsChat :)
Rutherglen is in Lanarkshire rather than Renfrewshire.
References ?
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FQ8D-PV4
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F7WS-QV6
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VQ43-ZLT
ev
-
Maybe ?
1851 Census , Main Street , Rutherglen , Lanarkshire.
Andrew Mulholand 32 labourer born Ireland
Margret Mulholand 30 wife b. Ireland
Mary Mulholand 9 dau. b. Rutherglen Lanarkshire
Andrew Mulholand 3 son b. Rutherglen Lanarkshire
Thomas Mulholand 7months b. Rutherglen Lanarkshire
( http://www.freecen.org.uk/ )
ev
-
1841 Census , Cooper's Land , Rutherglen , Lanarkshire.
Marjory Miilholand 18 powerloom weaver born Ireland
Andw Miilholand 20 coal miner b. unknown
Willm Miilholand 25 coal miner b. unknown
( http://www.freecen.org.uk/ )
ev
-
Poss 1861
Marjory Mulholand widow 39 b Ireland
Andrew son 13 sadler's ap b Rutherglen
Thomas son 9 scholar b Rutherglen
William son 6 scholar b Rutherglen
Marjery dau 1 b Rutherglen
Address Hamilton Road If correct then search for Andrew's death needs to be before 1861.
1891 has a Marjory Leitch wid b 1820 Ireland living in Stonelaw Street
1901 Address 73 Mill St
Marjory Mulholland 81 wid In receipt of parochial relief b Ireland
Ann Colvin vis 65 widow in receipt of parochial relief
William
-
Poss 1871
1 Hamilton Road, East Croft Lane, Rutherglen
Marjory Mullholland wid 45 Farm servant b Ireland
Wm Mullholland son u 17 dyer b Rutherglen.
And a warm welcome to Rootschat.
William
-
Marjory was born 1860 (Familysearch) and shown as age 1 on the 1861 census which would point to death for Andrew around 1860. There is a death on SP for an Andrew Mulholland in Rutherglen in 1860. Have tried to narrow down age by playing about with the index but it is not coming up with anything so maybe no age is recorded. Certainly worth a look!
Isobel
-
And 1881
56 Stonelaw Street, Rutherglen
Marjory Mullholland wid 51 outdoor worker b Ireland.
On Scotlands People a search gives a death for Madge Mulholland in 1909 in Blantyre Maiden name Leitch age 90. There is also a death for an Andrew Mulholland in Rutherglen in 1860. If correct these should give you parents' names. (Madge is a pet name for Marjery and Margaret)
William
-
Thanks everyone for the replies and welcome!
The 1861 and 51 census info are indeed this family. Their children are as follows: Andrew -Jan 9 1848 John -June 22 1843 Isabella Oct 21 1845 William - March 26 1854 Marjory - Feb 23 1860 David - Sept 19 18 56 Thomas -1852 Mary 1842. I have not investigated their deaths or marriages as yet with the exception of William (their son b 1854) who is my Great Granfather.
I never thought to look for any diminutives of Marjory - Madge makes total sense as in this family there is a tendency to use diminutives - Sadie and Sally for Sarah, Peggy, Maggie, for Margaret, Chas, Charlie for Charles and Jack for John etc. It helped keep the bearers of family names separated when speaking about them.
So any ideas how to find them in Ireland? Without a county it's going to be needle and haystack time. I do know that right back to my G-Grandfather's generation they were either Presbyterians or Baptists. I am aware of the split in Irish Mulhollands of either being Protestant or Catholic.
I'm thinking that they probably left around 1835-1840 as I believe their daughter Mary was born in 1842.
So far in my family history, I've only had to deal with Scotland, Canada, Tasmania and the USA. Ireland hasn't come up until now.
I will head over to Scotland's People and order up the death certificates.
Thank you so much for the leads.
Em
-
Andrew Mulholland died 8/8/1860 - although no age shown in index certificate shows he was aged 40, married, Agricultural Labourer, of Hamilton Road, Rutherglen and that he died of Phthisis Abdominalis. Informant was William Mulholland, brother. His parents are given as John Mulholland, farmer, deceased and Mary nee 'Reni' (sure it is not that but that is what it looks like), deceased.
Madge Mulholland died 7/6/1909 aged 90 of 9 Craig Street, Blantyre of Senile Decay. Shown as widow of Andrew Mulholland, Coachman (??), dau. of Daniel Leitch, Fisherman, deceased and Catherine nee Kerr, deceased. Informant son William Mulholland (who was living in Blantyre in 1901).
William Mulholland's death is indeed registered in 1920 Blantyre so don't know how you say you couldn't find on SP.
Annette
-
To actually clarify the 1881. census.
56 Stonelaw Street, Rutherglen.
David Mulholland, Head, Farm Servant, M. age 26 years, M. born Ritherglen,
Sarah, Mulholland, Wife, M. age 28 years, F. born Ireland,
Jane Mulholland, Daur, age 4 years, F. born Rutherglen,
Maggie Mulholland, Daur, age 1 years, F. born Rutherglen.
Then 56 Stonelaw Street, Rutherglen,
Marjory Mulholland, Head, Outdoor Worker, W. age 61 years, F. born Ireland.
This from the 1881 census disc, from Family Search.
However on Scotlandspeople, 1881 census all these Mulholland's, are in the same household.
So by that reckoning David Mulholland, on this census must surely be Marjory's, son David, born 1856. Rutherglen.
Regards,
Jonn
-
Did a speculative search for the surname Mulholland in Rutherglen in the newspaper archive and found two articles you might be interested in Em.
Glasgow Herald 6 June 1883 " Some time ago issues were ordered for the trial of an action at the instance of Marjory Leich or Mulholland residing at 56, Stonelaw Street' Rutherglen, against Glasgow Corporation. Pursuer claimed £500 damages because of injuries sustained by her through falling into an opening in the street roads made by defenders' servants with a view to repairing the gas pipes. The defences were that a watchman had been placed to guard the opening and that the damages claimed were excessive.
Counsel this morning informed the Lord Ordinary that the case had been settled by the defenders paying £65 and expenses." Page 10
Glasgow Herald 3 April 1873 "Yesterday, at the Sheriff Small Debt Court, Sheriff Spens presiding, Wm Mulholland, East Croft Lane, Rutherglen, sued James M'Corkindale, residing at 69 King Street, Rutherglen for £12 damages . The summons set forth that on the 28th December of last near Pollok's Land, King Street, Rutherglen, the defender maliciously assaulted the pursuer, and with a glass bottle struck him on the head, whereby he was severely injured and incapacitated from following his employment for upwards of seven weeks. After evidence of a somewhat contradictory character had been led, the Sheriff found that the pursuer had made out his case and decerned for the sum sued for and costs." Page 4
The Glasgow Herald is, I believe, on Google newspapers and so you should be able to see the originals if you wish.
William
-
Wow, thank you all so much for your time and energy.
Annette, thank you for the maiden names, those are a huge help. I'm not sure why SP isn't giving me William's death information. I've tried several times using different search parameters. Frustrating when you know the actual date and nothing is coming up. I tried with and without Mother's maiden name, widened the time frame etc. I have noted that my cousin who is in Scotland can come up with search results where I am in NA and can't find the same info based on the same search criteria. I put it down to country filters etc.
If she died in 1909 that might explain why her son, William didn't come to Canada until 1910. I found it odd that it was his sons that started arriving in 1903 and not him.
Milmoor, thanks for the newspaper links.
With respect to my Great grandfather, William I think I can narrow down the time he spent in Canada to 1910 to when the war broke out. His sons, David, Charles, William and Thomas returned to the UK to join up. His son George remained in Canada and joined the CEF.
His sons returned to Canada post war and we see them again in Cape Breton from about 1920 until the early 30s.
The Mulhollands married into the Baillies - Sarah Baillie to William Mulholland. The Baillies are proving to be quite the family. My Great Grandmother's sister married a Mormon and immigrated to Utah. She and other family members are part of the Mormon Pioneers.
My grandfather married a Lamond who is the granddaughter of a Beecroft/McNeil. My 2nd great grandmother on that side is the widow of James Beecroft - killed in 1881 in a Blantyre Mine. accident. I have read the posts on that family on here.
I'm off to search the Irish records for Andrew and Madge. Thanks again!!
-
I have just done the search for the death of William Mulholland in 1920 and it worked fine. There is only one death in the county of Lanark and parish of Blantyre for that name in that year. You should not have to put in age, year of birth or mother's maiden name. Sometimes less is more! ( Do make sure you have the sex right - I have made that error more than once!)
Hope this helps.
William
-
Thank you Millmoor, indeed it did work this time. I must have clicked something that threw the search engine off.
I've a quick look over on the Irish Gen site and found a few 1831 census results that might be the John and Mary Mulholland I'm looking for. I also did a quick search for Andrew Mulholland's birth but came up empty. So either I'm an absolute ditz with the search engines on gen sites or he was perhaps born in Scotland to Irish parents. I have to consider that census info was never verified by the enumerator and the informant may not really know the ages, birth places etc.
I also noted that in another thread someone else was asking about the Rennies/Mulholland of Londonderry. It was noted to the OP that Rainey is a very popular name in NI. Interesting stuff.
-
Cannot help with Irish records as have had no need yet to use. Do you have the shipping record which shows that they came back to Glasgow in May 1913? (from UK incoming passenger lists).
William
(My gg grandmother's sister was also a Mormon pioneer. From what I can gather coal mining areas of Scotland were quite fertile ground for "recruiting". Without my interest in family history I would have known nothing about it).
-
Sarah Baillie Mulholland, died 1925, aged 68 years. Blantyre, Lanark.
Regards,
Jonn.
-
Thanks again jonn and millmoor.
I downloaded their death registrations from SP. Andrew's mother's surname looks like a phonetic attempt at either Rainey, Rennie, Wren or something I may never figure out.
So here's a question regarding the questions on a census. Do they ask "Where were you born?" or 'Where do you come from?" This reference to Ireland is bothering me as I have yet to find any documentation that sets out that someone was actually born in Ireland.
Family lore sets out that we came from Ireland. My documentation so far says back to 1840 for the Mulhollands they were all born in Scotland and the Baillies go back to 1577 in Aberdeenshire. A 2nd great grandmother came from Newcastle but on that side, all from Bonhill, Blantyre, Glasgow, Kilsyth and no Ireland. No one in the past three generations has been able to identify where in Ireland the family originates. The only time I see Ireland on any document is the census.
I think I might have a case of a family that once had roots in Ireland but has spent decades/century(ies) living in Scotland but still consider themselves Irish.
-
Hi Em
While I have not researched Irish records from what I have read researching there can be "problematic" as a lot of records have been destroyed. To answer your question the census column does say "where born". I, therefore, have to say that, while you have not found any records for Andrew and Marjory in Ireland as yet, it is a big leap to say that they were not born there.
All I can suggest is that it might be worth reading up on researching in Ireland eg books from the library, Irish resource links on this site, other online sites like GENUKI. There is a blog called British Genes which I frequently read where the writer, Chris Paton, has a particular interest in Irish genealogy and may give ideas as to what is available.
A couple of public trees on ancestry have the births of Andrew and Marjory in co Londonderry in N Ireland. Might it be worth contacting the tree owners to see if they have any sources for this?
Good luck with your search.
William
-
Thanks Millmoor. I agree it would be a huge leap to say they didn't come from Ireland but having trekked through some of the family lore so far, not a lot of it has been able to be proven. It's just that it wouldn't surprise me that the Ireland connection was something speculated way back when and found it's way into the fact side of the family history.
I have learned not to entirely trust the information on a census. Far too many variables are in the mix. It was not the job of the enumerator to verify information and depending on who was being asked for that information depended on what was given. For example, the owner of a boarding house could be answering all the enumerator's questions and may not have exact birth place information but assumed all his boarders were from the same area. Nor is age always correct as some people fudged their ages to hide an illegitimate child, an enormous age difference between spouses etc.
So what have I learned in the last 24 hours about Irish immigration to Scotland... that in all likelihood if they arrived in Scotland that they hailed from Ulster. Easier transportation and jobs in the time period were plentiful in Scotland.
The main route patterns for Irish immigration to Britain were:
Emigrants from Ulster settled in Scotland
Emigrants from Connacht and the central strip of Ireland travelled via Dublin to Liverpool
Emigrants from Munster and other southerly or western areas of Ireland sailed to South Wales, London or the English south coast.
That to find a relative in Ireland one needs to know their Province, county, parish and townland. The 1841 Scottish census only asked where born, subsequent census asked more detailed questions of birth places.
Protestant Irish faired better in Scotland Catholic Irish. That many Irish in Scotland ran lodging homes.
Records in Ireland are extremely patchy. Entire census records were destroyed to make room for newer ones.
There are no passenger lists from Ireland to Scotland, England or Wales.
Lots more to read about. :)
-
I came across a brother of Andrew Mulholland - William. I have located his death registry and his mother's maiden name appears to be MUNRO. Oddly, the same person who took Andrew's death information was the same person for William - 17 years later.
On William's death record it has his father as John Mulholland - Chelsea Pensioner. There are only two John Mulhollands listed as Chelsea Pensioners and one was serving with a Welsh regt and one served with the Highland Light Infantry 71st and 74th Foot. The record indicates he was from DerryLoran, Tyrone, Ulster.
I think I may be getting closer. William's age on the death record puts him being born around 1809 while Andrew's record of 1860 puts him at about 1820 - age 40. Andrew's record has father as a farmer. That puts John at about 1784/1785 assuming he was about 25 in 1809.
Sadly, the records for Derryloran don't start until 1797. I have to comb through the baptisms and hope I can find a record of either William or his siblings from the dates they started recording.
Thanks for the help. (if anyone has access to the UK mil records I would love a lookup of the two John Mulhollands. )
-
Hi Em2
My grandfather was Sarah McNeil Lamonds brother john lamond
They lived at cemetery road high Blantyre I'm not sure if I would have any further
Information you might need or want but I'm happy to pass on what I have to you
All the best
Jrt
-
Hello JRT,
Delighted to meet you. I've sent you a PM. I'd love to exchange info on our family.
Cheers,
Em