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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Buckinghamshire => England => Buckinghamshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: DianneBehringer on Sunday 15 November 15 05:06 GMT (UK)
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Sarah Parsons was born 24 Mar 1846 (6/348) in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire to Thomas John (John) Parsons and Hannah Parsons (nee Nelson). Her birth is entered into the family bible as Saria Parsons born at "3 o'clock in the Afternoon". Saria appears as a 5 year old daughter to 'John' and Hannah Parsons of Cambridge St, Aylesbury in the 1851 Census. Sarah appears again as a 15 year old 'visitor' to Eizabeth Warner 67 year old dressmaker at Cambridge St, Aylesbury in the 1861 Census.
Thomas Nelson Parsons (my 2 x great grandfather) immigrated from Aylesbury leaving from Godbridge, Lanarkshire, Scotland on the Wanata arriving in Sydney, Australia on 5 Sep 1864 at the age of 16. On the comments it states "Sisters Sarah and Emma Parsons living at Newcastle, New South Wales'. Emma Elizabeth Parsons immigrated on 'Lloyds' in August 1855. She is listed as a sole traveller. She married Ninian John Scouller in 1857 and settled in Newcastle for some years. Emma had 4 children by 1864 when Thomas Nelson immigrated. I cannot find any immigration record for Sarah immigrating to Australia and there does not seem to be any records of any kind here in Australia for her except for that one comment on the Wanata manifest.
Is it possible for someone in Aylesbury, Buckinghamshire or England to find want happened to Sarah/Saria. Did she actually come to Australia or did she stay in England, marry and have children there. Sarah/Saria is my brickwall which is extremely frustrating. I have many photos dating back to 1870s and probably earlier, most of which I cannot idenfitify...is she one of them and if so was it taken in England or in Australia!!! She was a year older than Thomas Nelson Parsons and 9 years younger than Emma Elizabeth Parsons.
Dianne Behringer
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I can find nothing significant for Sarah/Saria Parsons, apart from what you've found. Although I have found baptisms for some of her elder siblings at Aylesbury St.Mary's(BucksFHS Transcripts CD), plus Sarah's parents marriage, and Thomas John Parsons parents and marriage.
Do you have the actual English birth certificate for Sarah/Saria Parsons, as there was no baptism for her at Aylesbury St.Mary's.
Sorry I can't be of more help. :(
Steve. :)
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Hi Steve
Thank you very much for trying. I do have the Sarah's English birth certificate which is where I found some of the info I have on my tree. I also tried to get a copy of the marriage certificate for her parents in 1835 but unfortunately certificates are not available before 1837. I have source records for marrage of Thomas John and Hannah Nelson and the marriage of William Parsons and Elizabeth Fleet. I hope in 2017 to go over to Aylesbury and see if I can find more information on this Parsons family in the Parish records. It is very frustrating when someone seems to vanish off the face of the earth like Sarah has.
Regards
Dianne
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Hi there,
May I share the following images from the NSW State Records Office's website.
Lloyds, 1 August 1855, Emma PARSONS, aged 19, a housemaid, of Aylesbury, Bucks, Wesleyan, Can Read and Write.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?Page=NRS5316/4_4792/Lloyds_1%20Aug%201855/4_479200283.jpg&No=10
Wanata, 3 Sept 1864, Thomas N PARSONS, aged 16, a labourer, of Aylesbury, Bucks, Church of England, Can Read and Write.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?Page=NRS5316/4_4798/Wanata_3%20Sep%201864/4_479800119.jpg&No=13
Cheers, JM
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Can I ask about any possible connection between your Emma, Sarah and Thomas PARSONS and the James PARSONS, aged 38, a Carpenter, of Aylesbury, Bucks, Church of England, Can read and write and his wife and children you were also on the Lloyds, 1 August 1855.
I ask this because I have instance after instance in the 1800s where so many of my Wesleyan family members became known as Sarah. Emma, aged 19, on the Lloyds is noted as Wesleyan.
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/ebook/list.asp?Page=NRS5316/4_4792/Lloyds_1%20Aug%201855/4_479200280.jpg&No=7
Cheers, JM
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Not sure how far back your Parsons go in Buckinghamshire, but BucksFHS can do individual searches for you, at a very reasonable cost.(£1).
I had the whole of my IVES families baptisms, marriages, banns and burials, for the whole County of Bucks, for just over £35 from BucksFHS, going back to the 1560's.
Cheaper than the air fare from Oz. ;D
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Hi JM
Thank you very much. I did actually have this information but not in this format which has been very helpful. Now to find a similar immigration manifest for Sarah/Saria Parsons who was supposed to be living in Newcastle NSW when Thomas Nelson Parsons arrived on 3 Sep 1864.
Regards
Dianne
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If there's a connection between James PARSONS and your family, then perhaps of significance is a birth and baptism for a couple, perhaps same James and Jane ..... if so, Jane would have been pregnant during the voyage.
So may I mention a Sarah Susanna, born 7 Oct 1855, baptised St Thomas, Port Macquarie, NSW 2 Dec 1855, daughter of James and Jane PARSONS.
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTHN-Q5S
If there's a connection, perhaps St Thomas Archivist (likely a volunteer) may have access to the C of E Family Sheet ..... may have mention of all members of the household.....
http://pmqang.org/
Cheers, JM
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When you wrote
"Sisters Sarah and Emma Parsons living at Newcastle, New South Wales'.
are the sisters listed in that particular order? If so, it is suggesting that that Sarah is older than Emma. From the conventions used in NSW during that era, it is also possible that that Sarah is an inlaw sister rather than a sister sharing same parent/s as Emma.
Cheers, JM
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You probably already have the following info, but others finding this thread at some future opportunity may be interested and hold the elusive 'jigsaw' piece.
From the NSW Electoral Roll for EAST SYDNEY 1870
Ninian SCOULAR, household, Forbes St
Noticing the spelling.
Sands 1869 Sydney Alphabetical
Ninian SCOULLER, draper, 146 Dowling Street
Sands 1871 (closing date for entries was October 1870)
Ninian SCOULLER, 235 Forbes St
City of Sydney Assessment Books
http://photosau.com.au/CosRates/scripts/home.asp
FITZROY Ward 1871
Mirian SCOULLER, 235 Forbes St, Landlord/Owner KELLY, a house, (see live link)
FITZROY Ward 1877
Ninian SCOULLER, 237 Forbes St, Landlord/Owner Charles READ, a house (see live link)
:) :) I am interested to learn which document gives you the additional information you have quoted about Thomas Nelson PARSONS with sisters in Newcastle NSW.
:) :)
Cheers, JM
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Hi again JM
James Henry Parsons and his wife Jane (nee Cook) came out to Australia on the Lloyds in Aug 1855. James was Emma, Sarah and Thomas Nelson's uncle...the brother of their father Thomas John Parsons. James and Jane brought out James' daughter Emma, son James (from a previous marriage), Jane's daughter Alice from previous marriage and their son Thomas John. They travelled separately from Emma Elizabeth and I wonder if she actually knew them. James and Jane had a daughter Susannah in 1857 born in Raymond Terrace. The family moved to Patricks Plain which is an early name for Singleton. It is a small world as Susannah Parsons married James Milligan in 1875 and I have been corresponding with a person who is descendant of the Milligan family...small world.
Bucksboy...how do I contact BuckFHS? I will hopefully learn a lot more about my family through them but won't be half as much fun as going there myself. I will be over there in 2017 so will still go to Aylesbury to sight the records myself.
Thanks again
Dianne
The comment on the Wanata manifest is "Sisters Sarah & Emma Parsons living at Newcastle New South Wales". Emma was 9 years older than Sarah. I checked to see if there was a Sarah Scouller (a sister to Ninian John Scouller Emma married) but there wasn't.
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As per the usual set up on those voyages, the families were accommodated together, and then the single females were together, and the single males were together. Emma was placed with the single females because she at her age, she was charged adult fare. So, I have sighted many passenger lists where Mum, Dad and their younger children are listed together, but their older son/s and/or daughter/s are in the single male or single female lists. It is to do with fare structures.
Cheers, JM
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As I have transcribed many a passenger list, particularly for Assisted Passengers to N.S. Wales in the 1850s and 1860s, may I please mention again that when I see the passenger nominating family members who are already in NSW, I usually see them listed in chronological order, or in alphabetical order and with surnames that reflect their then current surname. "Sarah and Emma Parsons in Newcastle" in 1864 is definitely a significant exception to that convention :
a) Sarah is listed ahead of Emma
b) Emma is listed as Emma Parsons, and not as Emma SCOULLER
From Emma's NSW marriage certificate to Ninian, can you please confirm the information Emma provided about herself, and her parents. Can you also give the names of the witnesses, and the denomination, clergyman. I will endeavour to follow these up in your quest for Sarah/Saria. I had a look at the 1851 census..... How sure are you that it reads Saria .... compare the "S" to other capital "S" on that same page ..... I have not looked at the 1861 census.
I cannot find any "Saria" in my NSW offline resources in and around the Newcastle, Hunter, Patricks Plains districts/localities in that 1850s/1860s era. I have been a NSW centric family history buff for decades, long before it became a popular hobby or there were any Internet commercial websites... I am always happy to look up any of my resources.
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
I am not sure why they are written incorrectly...maybe they just wrote down what Thomas Nelson Parsons told them. It is interesting that the birth of Ninian John Scouller on 27 March 1858 (Emma and Ninian eldest child) in entered on page 2 of the back of the Family Bible but there is no mention of their marriage. I have just received a transcript of their marriage certificate and there is not a lot on it. It confirms that Ninian is from Scotland and Emma from England. No parents for either are mentioned. The certificate does confirm that Ninian reduced his age by 10 years and Emma increased hers by 5 years. If she had put her real age of 19/20 she would have needed parental permission. The witnesses are related to the Presbyterian Minister James Fullerton L L D. At the bottom of the certificate is written "Birthplace, age and parent details were copied from Church Register No 370 on 12 Mar 1915".
I have just had another look at the 1851 Census and it definitely looks like an 'S' to me. Also all the other children and ages are correct. Except for the Family Bible and the 1851 Census, all other records are in the name of 'Sarah'.
JM I cannot find anything for Sarah/Saria in England or NSW. There was a marriage of a Sarah Parsons to:
Name: Sarah Parsons
Spouse Name: Francis John Collins
Marriage Date: 1866
Marriage Place: New South Wales
Registration Place: Paterson, New South Wales
Registration Year: 1866
Registration Number: 2849
Would have made her 20 years old and Paterson is around the area but I have so many certificates for Sarah Parsons who have nothing to do with our family...I haven't bought this one...don't want to jinx myself.
As far as the Family Bible is concerned. My cousin in Tasmania has it and we are not sure whether it was brought out by Thomas Nelson Parsons when he was 16 or whether he bought the Bible (and it is a large and heavy one) here and entered all the information into it. Some of it is his writing but not all of it. The first entry is 'Thos. John Parsons born May 16 1814'. His wife Hannah Nelson is the next entry and she was "Born 1811, Married July 31, 1835'.
I have always had an interest in family history but did not start researching until late 2012. My grandmother and I spend many years of weekends talking about family history but being stupid at no time did I write it down or record her recollections. When I have doubted what she told me, my research has proven her correct so I now believe everything I remember. I have my 2x great grandfather's photo album and my great grandmother's photo album and scrapbook. I just can't identify all the photos as some them go back to 1870s and maybe 1860s.
Thanks ever so much for your help.
Regards
Dianne
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Re Thomas’ details on one of the various manifests the Wanata arriving September 1864 …..
Looking at the image (41 of 44) and the entire column “Relations in the Colony. Giving Names & Addresses” I would suggest the scribe was endeavouring to follow the conventions. So, for example the list of single men is in fairly strict alphabetical order, by surname then keeping siblings together, by given name…. So, looking down through the first column (Name) consider letting your eyes land on any entry with more than one person with that same surname
O’BRIEN, and without even moving across to any column to the right….. You can see the scribe striving to follow conventions…..
Martin, then Patrick and then John. Just looking at that sequence your eyes should be saying “John is not connected to Martin and Patrick” …… J is alphabetically before M. So, John likely had NO other siblings on board.
M then P ….. well that’s in alpha order, and BOTH are listed ahead of J. ummmm….. the convention on these single female or single male lists is that family units are listed ahead of passengers without any other relatives onboard. J was not listed first, so M and P must be related…..
Then look across to the several columns ….yes, plenty of information showing Martin’s native place and his parents names and status and Mum’s then current location, and then under the column “Relations in the Colony” ……. Sister, Mary JOHNSON, and her location in NSW. Johnson ….. that’s obviously her married name.
So, the scribe recording the manifest seems to be following the conventions.
Thomas Nelson PARSONS entry shows that both his parents are living, and that he is Church of England, and he can read and write, and that he has “Sisters, Sarah and Emma PARSONS living at Newcastle New South Wales”.
So, to me, either Thomas did not know his sister Emma was married and had been married for years and had children of that marriage, OR Emma who married Ninian was NOT Thomas’ sister. With both his parents noted as alive at the time Thomas emigrated, and with Thomas being literate, surely he had the full details for locating his sisters, including their full names, not just their birth names?
I was hoping that the marriage certificate would give you the information that Emma provided when she being interviewed for her marriage…. This is first hand info that she provides to the clergy…. I see that NSW BDM reconciled their civil register to the Fullerton register in 1915. It is unlikely that you will be able to find the rest of the first hand information that that Emma provided about her own parents when she was marrying, as at one time the NSW Registrar General noted that Rev Fullerton was running a ‘marriage shop’.
http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/fullerton-james-3582
I realise of course that you are searching for Sarah PARSONS, so I hope I have not diverted your attention away from that quest. I should also add that re NSW, NOT ALL passenger lists are extant, and NOT ALL extant passenger lists have been transcribed. And of course, transcribed lists are only as good as the transcribing teams’ weakest link – ie the quality/condition of the document being transcribed and the knowledge of the transcribers.
Thomas Nelson PARSONS certainly believed two of his sisters were in Newcastle NSW in 1864, and that they were Sarah and Emma PARSONS. I cannot find a likely arrival for Sarah assuming that is her in the UK in 1861 census.
Sorry I have not helped you find Sarah, but if you are sure that Thomas Nelson PARSONS is your ancestor, then I can only confirm with you that he believed two of his sisters were in Newcastle NSW in 1864.
ADD ..... there's just a slight concern in my thoughts.....
Emma on arrival list was Wesleyan
Emma on marriage was Presbyterian
Thomas was Church of England
Cheers, JM
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JM I cannot find anything for Sarah/Saria in England or NSW. There was a marriage of a Sarah Parsons to:
.....Sarah Parsons
.....Francis John Collins
.....1866
.....New South Wales
.....Paterson, New South Wales
.....1866
.....2849
For about $20Au (sometimes less) you can obtain an official transcription of that 1866 marriage registered in the Paterson district for a Sarah PARSONS and a Francis John COLLINS.
If, instead of using the commercial website’s index only record, you use the free to search NSW BDM online index you can determine the date of that marriage (13 December 1866) and you can also check to see if the registration is indexed more than once (ie different spellings or surnames for the bride or groom).
Here is the live link
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx
Here’s the live link to NSW BDM’s official transcribers
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#transcription
Here’s the live link to RChat’s Resources Board for NSW
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=369703.0
Please may I gently mention that it is important not to infringe copyright material. It is best not to copy paste from commercial websites, as that may be infringing their terms and conditions of use and of course RChat’s conventions too .
Cheers, JM
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Would have made her 20 years old and Paterson is around the area but I have so many certificates for Sarah Parsons who have nothing to do with our family...I haven't bought this one...don't want to jinx myself.
Yes, well I have a wallpaper collection myself :) can you please type up the ref nos. for the NSW BDM certificates for Sarah please.
May I also suggest you consider lodging some of the 'unwanted' certificates (including official transcriptions) with the http://ausbdm.ucoz.org/
Cheers, JM
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Hi JM
A mystery as to why that comment appears on the manifest in the way it is written. The record is definitely my 2 x great grandfather Thomas Nelson Parsons, brother to Sarah/Saria Parsons and Emma Elizabeth Parsons. Their parents, Thomas John Parsons and Hannah Nelson, were married in St Marys, Aylesbury 1835 which was then an Anglican church. There is no mentioin of religion on Thomas' birth certificate and I don't have Emma's birth certificate (if it is available as she was born in 1837). I have double checked all Census and the ages and names of the children and parents tie in with my Parsons family. Only anomoly is the 1841 Census where Emma is listed as 'Ann 3'. They didn't have an Ann and 3 is about right for Emma born in 1837.
Emma married Ninian Scouller in 1857 under Presbyterian rights. She remarried Obed West Jnr 25 January 1886 (story and half there) under Presbyterian rights. On her death certificate she is classified as C of E and buried in the Church of England Cemetery at Waverly. The informant on her death cert is her son-in-law Percy Alford. He has cofirmed that her father was William but has put her name (Emma Elizabeth) for her mother instead of Hannah. He states she was 18 when she married Ninian and 48 when she married Obed. Her marriage certificate to Ninian states she was 25 probably for purposes of the 'marriage shop' you mentioned.
Thomas Nelson Parsons was married to Isabella Whittle in 1870 under C of E rights. He then married again to Jessie McClaren Murray 1897 under Independent Baptist Church rights. He is buried in Church of England Cemetery at Woronora.
I have ordered the marriage certificate for Sarah Parsons and Francis John Collins but don't have much confidence in it being her. One of the problems with the indexes is that there is no age listed so very hard to tell which of multiple index records in one name actually is the one you are looking for. I would have to look for the other certificates I have bought now but when I find them I will put them up on that site you mentioned. One of them was for a Sarah Parsons death in 1908, I think, but she was 92 years old...way to old for my Sarah. If the age at death had been on the index I would never have bought it.
I apologise for the cut and paste and certainly won't do it again...I am learning.
Thank you ever so much for all the information and help.
Regards
Dianne
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So, as that's your Thomas, then that's also his two sisters. He has arrived at 16, as though an adult, and he had the ability to Read and Write. Sarah was still in England in 1861 Census, but in Newcastle NSW with Emma by September 1864. Not a huge timeframe to look again for her arrival .... she would likely be a single female, and should be listed under her surname of Parsons. That is, unless she arrived as a wife ......
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl
http://mariners.records.nsw.gov.au/
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/archives-in-brief/archives-in-brief-101
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/state-archives/guides-and-finding-aids/files/archives-in-brief-102-how-to-find-unassisted-passengers-pdf (follow instructions overleaf)
and the main NSW State Records website is
http://www.records.nsw.gov.au/
Cheers, JM