RootsChat.Com
Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: issykirkpatrick on Friday 13 November 15 23:00 GMT (UK)
-
Hope some one can help I'm stuck with this couple John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg who are the parents on the marriage certificate of William Kirkpatrick who married Margaret Graham in 1868 at Ardwall, New Abbey. I have found various birth dates and various different places of birth for them and I may have them in the 1841 and 1851 census's in Kirkpatrick-Durham and Kirkbean, they may have had 8 children but I cannot find a marriage certificate or banns for the couple so don't feel I can verify anything. I have tried Scotlands People, Find My Past and Latter Day Saints but had no luck on any sites on their marriage. I have checked and re-checked all my other information leading back to 1968 it all appears correct. For months I have kept coming back to this couple and tried different approaches but to no avail and it's costing a fortune, I'm just about ready to give up.
Any help, hints, tips will be gratefully appreciated.
Regards
issy
-
Hi Izzy
It is frustratring when the records start to dry up before 1855 and the start of official registration in Scotland. Only about a third of BMD events are to be found prior to 1855 in the Old Parish Registers, for all sorts of reasons.
Even if you were able to find a marriage entry for them, being pre 1855, likely it would be no more that a one-liner with no personal details relating to parents (at best, sometimes only a mention of bride's father's name, but most often not).
A good idea to look to possible death certs as if they died after 1855, normally full names of mother and father were included for the deceased if known to the informant.
Somebody has this online tree on a/try http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/34279853/person/19661807424, which includes the original image of John Kirkpatrick's death in 1892 in Kirkbean at the age of 88, already a widower of Elizabeth Begg. His father showing as a Dunholm Kirkpatrick, a carter. The informant did not know/remember the name of John's mother unfortunately. John and Elizabeth (Begg) had a son called Dunholm didn't they. It was Dunholm that reported his father's death.
Dunholm, son, also reported the death of his mother, Elizabeth Begg, in 1889. Showing as married to John Kirkpatrick. This connects with 1891 and son Dunholm with his family, and father living with them by then. The original census image from SP likely would show John as a widower.
The notes above are from the original images from SP that have kindly been included here on this family tree (available via a subscription).
Monica :)
-
It is possible it might have been a civil marriage and not recorded by the church at that time. Statutory Registration began in Scotland in 1855.
Or, I see that Elizabeth was noted as born Ireland on the 1841 census. Given their location it would not have been difficult for them to have been married in Ireland.
Colin
-
1851 census, which I think you have, but just for reference here now:
John Kirkpatrick 41 ploughman b. Troqueer, kirkcudt
Elizabeth Kirkpatrick 42 b. Kirkpatrick, kirkcudt
Ann Kirkpatrick 14 b. Kirkpatrick, kirkcudt...name given for Elizabeth's mother by son Denholm
David Kirkpatrick 12 b. Kirkpatrick
Lewis Kirkpatrick 10 b. Kirkpatrick
Dennorn Kirkpatrick 8 b. Kirkbean...name given for John's father by son Denholm
Martin Kirkpatrick 5 b. Kirkbean...name given for Elizabeth's father by son Denholm
Robert Kirkpatrick 3 b. Kirkbean
William Kirkpatrick 7 b. Kirkbean
Address: Dumbar, Kirkbean
Monica
-
Colin, re a possible civil marriage in Scotland, not quite the same laws for Scotland at that time. A good short read here www.gla.ac.uk/schools/socialpolitical/research/economicsocialhistory/historymedicine/scottishwayofbirthanddeath/marriage/
Just a few reasons why people are not often able to find a BMD may involve:
- it cost money to register, not something all could afford
- many registers have been lost or destroyed over the years
- In the main, the records to be found on Scotlands People (and indexed via Family Search) relate to those records for the established Church of Scotland, ie Presbyterian. Only a few years ago, SP included what records have now been digisted and are availble from registers for the Roman Catholic Church. Scottish church history is very fragmented in the 1800s. These records for other breakaway religions/churches are not normally found on SP.
- for background, burial registers were the worst maintained of all.
Scotlands People have numerous help notes on this range of topics.
Monica :)
-
Thanks Monica but as they were married around 1826 I thought it might be appropriate, things were begining to change around that time.
Colin.
Ayrshire
-
John Kirkpatrick showed as born in Troqueer c. 1806-10, with his father named as Denholm (will be various spelling variations on this name for sure). No mother named.
Something to consider for the Kirkpatricks...
There is a Denholm Kirkpatrick, with wife Margaret in 1851
Denholm Kirkpatrick 77 carter b. Notgrove (?spel), dumfries
Margaret Kirkpatrick 60 b. Dumfries, dumfries
Ann Kirkpatrick 24 daughter b. Troqueer, kirkcudbright
James Morran 5 grandson b. Troqueer, kirkcudbright
Address: 18 Howgate Street, Troqueer
In John Kirkpatrick's death in 1892, his father Denholm showed as having been a carter.
Denholm Kirkpatrick and Margaret Edgar married or banns as showing here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTLB-VMN Lots of children showing for them including a possible entry for a son John here https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XYMT-FQ6
Monica
-
In Elizabeth Begg's death registration, her son gave her parents' names as a Martin Begg and Ann Cavins. The occupation for Martin Begg showed as mill wright. Wondered whether this connected to this 1841 census entry in Kirkbean:
Martin Begg 50 Mill Wright
Ann Begg 52
William Dixon 20 blacksmith
Maryan Martin 8
John Martin 4
Elisabeth Martin 1
Mary Stevenson 15 female servant
Address: Preston Mill, Kirkbean
Someone is quoting Martin Begg's death as being in 1855 in Kirkpatrick Durham. I can see that entry in the index of SP. If the correct entry for Martin, Elizabeth's father, death certs for 1855 are a wonderful find. For that year only, along with other info, they should include a list of the children born to the deceased (assuming married) and list names, current ages as at 1855, and years when any may have predeceased parent. Looks hopeful :)
Other info in various other place such as www.aganderson.me.uk/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I2323&ged=Anderson or http://kayll.me.uk/anderson/f24.html (just search 'begg').
Monica
Added: Goodness, lucky (in the way we use those words ::)) Ann Caven/Begg also died in 1855 in Kirkpatrick Durham. Double confirmation. Unusual to have this this way....
-
Thanks for the reply's MonicaL and ColC I will be on my day's off work at the end of the week so will be able to look further thanks to your help. Meanwhile Bitza sent me this
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1emzE__GBANazdIQUJNQlQ1a2c/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1emzE__GBANMW0xUUpfeWxETlk/view?usp=sharing
I can't make out much at all from the Martin Begg one but can make out more form the Ann Begg one. I've not come across this type of certificate before so will need to take more time to understand them. Do you's think this might be family I'm looking for? I don't think a marriage will be found for John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg so I suspect I will have to go down the route of births and deaths.
Thanks so much for your time
Regards
issy
-
Issy, the 1855 BMD certs were only around for a year, the first of official registration in Scotland, with the entries runnning over two pages of the registers. By 1856, the info had been reduced down to 1855. As good as Scottish BMDs are, the 1855 are pretty special so your are lucky to have both of Elizabeth's parents having died that year.
Martin Beggs shows him as aged 82, a millwright. He died in Kirkpartick Village. He shows as having lived there all his life (this is the reference to 82 years there).
Father a Martin Begg, think he shows as a weaver and mother Mary Milligan. Married to Ann Cavin.
His children show as:
Elizabeth - aged 48 at the time of his death in 1855
Mary - aged 32
Helen - deceased
John - deceased xxx aged 2
John - deceased xxx aged 9 months
James - deceased aged 3 months
He died on 13/1/1855 in Kirkpatrick Village. Cause of death Catarh(?) 5 days and details of reporting MD/surgeon. Buried at Churchyard Kirkpatrick Durham ( see www.ckpd.org.uk/). Death reported by daughter Elizabeth Begg.
Will have a look too at Ann Cavin's death reg. Wanted to see Martin's first to see what was there first.
Monica :)
PS: The info included on the cert fits well with this family info here, on the link from earlier, www.aganderson.me.uk/webtrees/individual.php?pid=I2323&ged=Anderson
-
Ann's cause of death a month later is the same as husband's Martin isn't. The rest of the info on there is more legible. Hopefully you can work back further on her parents too from there. Their children's details match, both then daughter Elizabeth reported both deaths. She looks to not remember when her sister Helen died.
Cause of death on both certs below. Still looks like Catarrh:
-
From here http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his480/notes/deth-dic.htm - wonder if it was pneumonia complications for both?
Catarrh (Catarah/ Catarrah/ Catarrh of Brain/ Catarrh of Head/ Catarrh of Stomach/ Catarrh on the Breast/ Catarrk/ Catarrk Pneumonia) - An inflammatory affection of any mucous membrane, in which there are congetion, swelling, and an alteration in the quantity and quality of mucous secreted. In America, especially, a chronic inflammation of, and hypersecretion from the membranes of nose or air passages. in England, an acute influenza, resulting from a cold and attended with cough, thirst, lassitude and watery eyes; also, the cold itself. Catarrh Pneumonia is an inflammation of the lung tissue associated with catarrh and with marked evidences of inflammation of the bronchial membranes - often chronic.
Monica
-
Sorry everyone who replied and did such a lot of work on my question of John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Begg. I was a bit over whelmed by the response and it has taken me a while to get my head round it all. Although I have a lot more to find out including some suggestions on here, here is what I have so far, though some of the dates are a bit off.
1892 – Death - John Kirkpatrick, age 88?, (general labourer), born Troqueer 1808?, widower of Elizabeth Begg, son of Denholm Kirkpatrick (carter) and Mary Edgar, informant Denholm Kirkpatrick, son.
1889 – Death - Elizabeth Kirkpatrick, age 86?, married to John Kirkpatrick (general labourer), daughter of Martin Beggs (millwright) and Ann Beggs m.s. Caven, informant Denholm Kirkpatrick, son.
1868 – Marriage - William Kirkpatrick (age 20?) son of John Kirkpatrick and Elizabeth Kirkpatrick m.s. Beg, to Margaret Graham (age 22) daughter of David Graham and Jane Graham m.s. Nesbit at Ardwall, New Abbey. Witness David Graham and ............Dobie. (SP) 1863 – Anne Kirkpatrick husband Thomas Bennet daughter Elizabeth Begg Bennet, Kirkbean. (FS)
1862 – Ann Kirkpatrick married Thomas Benet, Kirkbean. (FS)
1861 – Census - William kirkpatrick at Wreaths, Kirkbean, Southerness.
John Kirkpatrick age 54, ag lab, Troqueer
Eliza age 55, ag lab's wife, Isle of Man
Ann age 23, ag lab, Kirkpatrick
Robt age 15, scholar, Kirkbean
William age 11, scholar, Kirkbean (SP)
1855 – Death - Ann Begg m.s. Caven, age 83 at Buitle?, Kirkpatrick Durham. Father Robert? Caven married to Elizabeth Caven m.s. Orr. Husband Martin Begg, Millwright (Deceased).
Elizabeth 48
Mary 32
Helen Dec
John Dec. . 2
John Dec. . 9 months
James Dec. . 3 months
Church yard Kirkpatrick Durham, reported by Elizabeth Begg, daughter.
1855 – Death - Begg Martin, age 82. Son of Martin Begg (millwright?) and mother Mary Begg m.s. Milligan. Married to Ann Caven.
1. Elizabeth 48
2. Mary 32
3. Helen Dec
4. John Dec. . 2
5. John Dec. . 9 months
6. James Dec. . 3 months
Church yard kirkpatrick Durham, reported by Elizabeth Begg, daughter.
1851 – Census – John Kirkpatrick, age 41, ploughman, Troqueer. (SP &FS)
Elisabeth, age 42, Kirkpatrick. (SP?)
Ann, age 14, Kirkpatrick. (SP & FS)
David, age 12, Kirkpatrick. (SP & FS)
Lewis, age 10, Kirkpatrick. (Sp & FS)
Denholm, age 8, Kirkbean. (SP)
Martin, age 5, Kirkbean. (SP & FS)
Robert, age 4, Kirkbean. (SP)
William, age 1, Kirkbean. (SP)
1849 – Baptism on 09/12/1849 of William MartinKirkpatrick born 14/11/1849 lawful son of John Kirkpatrick & Elizabeth Begg at Durham, Kirkbean by Rev ...... Grierson. (SP)
1847 – Birth – Robert Smith Kirkpatrick to Elisabeth Begg and John Kirkpatrick at Kirkbean (FS).
1843 - Birth – Denholm Kirkpatrick to Elisabeth Begg and John Kirkpatrick at Kirkbean. (SP & FS).
1841 – Census - Ann Kirkpatrick, Kirkpatrick Durham. Village/s ?
John Kirkpatrick, age 31, ag lab.
Elisabeth, age 30/32 Isle of Man
John, age 9 (SP & FS)
Ann, age 4 1/2 (SP & FS)
David, age 2 1/2 (SP &FS)
Lewis, age 6 months (SP & FS)
1809 – Burials – Mary Begg 01/01/1809 at Malew. Mary daughter of Martin. (Isle of Man)
1808 – Born - John Kirkpatrick son of Denholm Kirkpatrick and Mary Edgar Baptised 22/06/1808 (SP).
1808 - Baptism – John Begg 10/01/1808 at Malew son of Martin Begg and Ann Cavins. (Isle of Man).
Thanks for all the support and sorry to be long winded, I still have other things to look into. I can see this taking a while yet as I've still only got the one marriage for such a big family.
Regards
issy