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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Xashus on Thursday 12 November 15 04:08 GMT (UK)
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Did the Police hold records of crew who jumped ship in Lyttelton in the 1870s?
My Swedish 2 x Great Grandfather was a deserter and I would like to find out more about him.
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You could search for him in Papers Past - the Christchurch papers have reports of ships' deserters.
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Topic moved to the New Zealand Board.
Spades
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Hi Xashus
Can you give me his name and details please. I have access to a number of record collections here in Sweden.
Ian
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Hi Ian, His name is Peter Anderson/Andersen and he was born about 1832. His Naturalisation records states that he was from Goteborg. He married Petrine Peterson (from Denmark) in Le Bon's Bay School in December 1874. I would appreciate any help you can offer. Fiona
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Hi
Do you have his marriage certificate? It might state his father's name.
Ian
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No mention of his parents or birthplace on his marriage record.
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That's a pity. I'll see what I can find.
Ian
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Thanks Ian. I have been doing my family genealogy for quite some time and Peter is one of my brick walls. Fiona
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Just wondering..... how do you know he jumped ship?
Ian
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That is what both of my Swedish 2 x Great Grandfather's did. They were not part of any Scandinavian emigration voyages and that is why we have no other records for them.
Frederick Lawson (Larson) fell in love with my 2 x Great Grandmother while working on the ship that she was sailing out from England on.
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Ha, so you have 2 Swedes in your family!
If you need help on Frederick I can try there too.
Also
Is his natuarlisation record online?
And
What info do you have on Petrine as it might help.
Ian
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I have found Petrine and her family as the Danish records are free and not too difficult to decipher.
I will need to do some more digging for Frederick.
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Did Peter have a middle name.
Ian
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It doesn't look like it. Frederick Larson died quite young and doesn't appear to have been naturalised.
Peter's naturalisation record has him as Peter AndersEn.
Petrine Peterson came out to NZ aboard the Punjab in 1873. There were quite a few other Scandinavians on board - perhaps Peter was a crew member on that.
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The surname Andersen sounds Danish.
I know you said the record says Goteborg but are you sure he was actually Swedish.
Ian
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Hello Xashus...
Welcome to Rootschat :)
Although often inaccurate, "Svenska in NZ" has the following...
(it's a free-to-view Dropbox link so just X any popups asking you to register)
http://tinyurl.com/pdtt8sl (http://tinyurl.com/pdtt8sl)
Columns are as follows...
Name - Born - Parish - County - Arrived - Naturalised - Deceased - Married/Children - Occupation - Notes
Dates are back to front so his date of birth is 8 Jan 1850 (nowhere near 1832)
Date of marriage is 20 Dec 1874 in Banks Peninsula
Date of naturalisation is 15 Jan 1901 in Le Bon's Bay
Date of death is 16 Aug 1918 in Christchurch
Four children
Any of this fit?
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Here is the brother, Erik Gustaf...
http://tinyurl.com/opf5ldz (http://tinyurl.com/opf5ldz)
Regards
Beg
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Hi
Great info Beg.
I took a look at these 2 gentleman in the Swedish Church Books and yes they were brothers and were seamen. Their dates of birth are correct. This looks like to be Peter Andersson even if the birth date is different. Their father's name was Andreas Pettersson.
The minister had noted that Erik Gustaf had jumped ship in November 1872. He had also noted in the book for 1872-1882 that Peter was in London.
Ian
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Hi Xashus
Can you give me the names of his children so I can compare them to his siblings etc.
Ian
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I have been given the Swedish family report also. After checking through, it just doesn't seem to fit.
Their Petter August Anderson was born in 1850. I understand ages being out by a couple of years, but 18 years? Erik's marriage record lists his father as Peter Anderson - he was Anders Peterson on the report (maybe relevant, maybe not).
Also, it is said that Petter and his brother Erik jumped ship together, but my Peter was already married at the time that Erik jumped ship.
Fiona
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Ian
Peter's children are;- Jemima, Annie, Charles August, Mary Josephine, David and Carn Elizabeth.
Fiona
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Hi
In the first image from Beg it does state Petrine as his wife. Did Peter have any siblings in New Zealand?
Ian
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I don't know if he had any siblings. My Grandmother knew all of her Grandparents and would have said so if she had known.
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Ok thanks.
Ian
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Just a quick point...
"SVENSKARNA I NYA ZEELAND" by Sten Aminoff is notoriously inaccurate. As he had free rein at both NZ Archives and the Swedish National Archives the information from each one is usually pretty accurate. However when he came to linking records from one country to the other there often seemed to be a bit of guesswork involved, at least that's how it looks to me (and to lots of others by all accounts).
On the other hand, if I had jumped ship I would definitely change my date and place of birth when filling in any official forms (marriage/naturalisation). Might account for the age discrepancy.
As an example, the WW1 Attestation for Erik Gustaff's son, also called Erik Gustaff, says his Dad came from Ireland!!!
Image 13
http://tinyurl.com/nrm6egd (http://tinyurl.com/nrm6egd)
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Here are the names of some of the children and grandchildren of Erik Gustaff ANDERSON. Do any of these names ring bells in your family history...
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-909-50512-186757-21?cc=1865481 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-909-50512-186757-21?cc=1865481)
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His name is Peter Anderson/Andersen and he was born about 1832.
How did you find his birth year of 1832-ish.
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I have been given the Swedish family report also.
Is this a report you commissioned from a Swedish genealogist - or something similar. If so, what did they come up with.
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I don't know if he [Peter] had any siblings
[...]
Also, it is said that Petter and his brother Erik jumped ship together, but my Peter was already married at the time that Erik jumped ship.
A bit confused :-)
When you say "it is said that Petter and his brother Erik jumped ship together" is this a family story or something from the report.
And you say "my Peter was already married at the time that Erik jumped ship". In reply #17 Ian says that Erik jumped ship in 1872. Peter's marriage to Petrine wasn't until 1874.
Regards
Beg
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I am obviously getting bits and pieces from different people in regard to Peter Anderson.
Peter's birthday has been assumed as 1832 by his age on record when he died. If he is the Petter August Anderson born in 1850, then he was 5 years younger than his wife Petrine - no big deal, but an 18 year addition to his age seems a bit much. I have been told that Peter and his brother Erik jumped ship together, but then I was told that Erik claimed to have done this after 1874.
The Swedish family report I have been given was produced by a descendant of some other branch, and he must have trawled through Swedish records to do so. This was compiled quite a few years ago and the compiler was born in 1894, emigrating to America in 1912, but he died in Sweden in 1986.
I will go to the National Archives and look through the Police Gazette, which should list the names of ships crew who jumped ship. Hopefully that will point me in the right direction. Fiona
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Can Peter's naturalisation and marriage records be seen online?
Ian
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Just been digging a little more on Petter (*) August Andersson in the Swedish Books.....
On 2 June 1876 he came back to Bröttorp from London then
on 10 June 1876 he left Bröttorp for London again.
If this is your Peter he must have returned to visit.
* - This Petter August Andersson was born Petter August but also written as Per or Peter throughout the books.
Ian
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I think that settles it then. If Petter August Anderson arrived and then left London in 1876, then he cannot be my Peter Anderson. My Great Grandmother was born in September 1876 and it is highly unlikely that her father left Le Bon's Bay to visit Sweden.
His marriage and death records give no parents names or place of birth.
Fiona
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I have found the details of my other Swedish 2 x Great Grandfather who also jumped ship in NZ.
Frederick Lawson (Larson?) was born about 1856/1857 in Stockholm to Peter Lawson (Larson?) and Mary Anderson. He was a sailor aboard the "WAIROA" which sailed from London on 19 May 1883 and arrived in Wellington, New Zealand on 25 August 1883. Anything that you can do to help me find out more about Frederick would be appreciated. Fiona
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Hi
Did he marry Mary Ann Turner in 1885?
Ian
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Yes he did marry Mary Ann Turner. The story goes that he met her on the ship coming to New Zealand and fell in love.
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.
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just wondered as there are a couple of trees on Ancestry stating that Frederick's father was Andrew. You have written Peter.
Ian
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Sorry, I am getting confused with my Swedish ancestors.
Frederick's father is Andrew..... Fiona
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Do you have any more info..... his father's occupation etc?
Ian
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his father's occupation etc?
Possibly a miner...
(Again, free-to-view Dropbox link so just X any popups asking you to register)
Name - Born - Parish - County - Arrived - Naturalised - Deceased - Married/Children - Occupation - Notes
Dates are back to front...
http://tinyurl.com/nadltpx (http://tinyurl.com/nadltpx)
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Just repeating my earlier question... do any of the names/surnames in the probate file ring any bells
Here are the names of some of the children and grandchildren of Erik Gustaff ANDERSON. Do any of these names ring bells in your family history...
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-909-50512-186757-21?cc=1865481 (https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-909-50512-186757-21?cc=1865481)
Regards
Beg
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Thanks Beg.
Ian
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Hi Fiona
Did you get his parent's names from his marriage certificate?
Ian
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I don't have anything else to add. Hus parents names were on the marriage certificate. Fiona
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Hi Beg,
I appear to have two conversations going on at the same time.
Peter Anderson -
Naturalisation record (1901) = born about 1832 in Goeteborg, Sweden.
He married Petrine Peterson Dec 1874 in Le Bon's Bay, Canterbury (no father's details)
Death Record (1918) = supposed to have been in NZ 46 years (arrived about 1872) and he was 40 years old when married (that fits with 1832 the birth date).
The family information that I have been given shows that Petter August Anderson had a brother; -Erik Gustaff Anderson who arrived in NZ on the same ship. I am fairly confident that Erik is NOT my Peter Anderson's brother. As far as I am aware, my Peter Anderson had no siblings in NZ. Fiona
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Hi Ian, Frederick is supposed to have been on the same ships as Mary Ann Turner (the Wairoa) which arrived in Wellington, from London, in August 1883.
The marriage certificate shows Frederick was a mariner, while Andrew Lawson and Mary Anderson are recorded as his parents. It also shows his place of birth as Stockholm, Sweden. I have no other records for Frederick, as he died before he could be naturalised. Fiona
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Hi Ian, Frederick is supposed to have been on the same ships as Mary Ann Turner (the Wairoa) which arrived in Wellington, from London, in August 1883.
The marriage certificate shows Frederick was a mariner, while Andrew Lawson and Mary Anderson are recorded as his parents. It also shows his place of birth as Stockholm, Sweden. I have no other records for Frederick, as he died without being naturalised. Fiona
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Frederick is supposed to have been on the same ships as Mary Ann Turner (the Wairoa) which arrived in Wellington, from London, in August 1883.
Hi again...
If you have an awful lot of spare money you can order a copy of the 1883 Crew List for the Wairoa. This should show whether or not the family story about the shipboard romance is true.
The Crew List Agreement is what's known as an E2. Here's an example of one...
http://tinyurl.com/qybp2ny (http://tinyurl.com/qybp2ny)
Note crewman no.10... Eric ANDERSON b.1855-ish of Gothenburg, Sweden. It's noted on the next page of the agreement that he deserted in Rio. Maybe if your Frederick deserted in NZ it was noted on the Wairoa's agreement.
Here's the ordering page...
Ordering Copies of Crew Agreements (Crew Lists)
https://www.mun.ca/mha/about/orderagreements.php (https://www.mun.ca/mha/about/orderagreements.php)
The Official Number of the Wairoa was 73621
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Going back over this thread I'm still not 100% clear on the ANDERSON brothers. Is the following right...
There was definitely a Peter (no middle name) ANDERSON who had a brother Eric (no middle name) ANDERSON. Peter was your ancestor. Eric was never in NZ.
And there was also a Petter August ANDERSON who had a brother Erik Gustaff ANDERSON. Both of these brothers were in NZ. Neither of these two brothers are related to you.
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Have you seen the ITM (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=714246.0) for the 1874 ANDERSON/PETERSON marriage. Might not give any clues but might.
The pre-1881 ITM's are indexed so maybe start a lookup thread... similar to this one...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=686455.msg5306096#msg5306096 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=686455.msg5306096#msg5306096)
Regards
Beg
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I can go into the Archives and have a look at the ITM for Peter Anderson/Petrine Peterson.
I was not aware that Peter had any siblings in NZ and I can see that Erik Anderson is related to a Petter August Anderson (but I don't see that they are part of my family)
I will also have a look through the Police Gazettes which should list any deserters -
Peter Anderson in Lyttelton and Otago from 1872
Frederick Lawson/Larson off the Wairoa in Wellington 1883
Thanks for your help locating the Official Number of the Wairoa.
Fiona
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Hi Fiona
Did it also say that Andrew was a miner on the certificate?
Ian
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No, the marriage certificate didn't say that Andrew Lawson was a miner. The only occupation listed was Mariner for Frederick Lawson. Fiona
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So where did the occupation miner come from then?
Ian
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I have no idea. Perhaps someone misread Frederick's occupation Mariner............
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I will also have a look through the Police Gazettes which should list any deserters -
Peter Anderson in Lyttelton and Otago from 1872
Hi again...
By the 1870's the NSW Police Gazette was publishing desertion notices compiled from Police Gazettes throughout Australia, NZ, Fiji and the Norfolk Islands.
Just for the record, the NSW Police Gazette of 26 June 1872 lists a Swedish deserter by the name of Peter ANDERSON.
Might not be your man as I think the desertion happened in Sydney*** but there's nothing to say he didn't later hop onto a ship heading to NZ.
Ships' Deserters 1852 - 1900 by Jim Melton
Seaman Peter Anderson deserted from the British ship Thyatira
22 years of age, light hair and whiskers, round face.
A Swede, 5ft 2inches high
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***In early June 1872 the Thyatira arrived into Sydney from London. In late June 1872 she was cleared for Shanghai. I'm assuming she never got close to NZ.
There is an E1 1872 crew agreement for the Thyatira if you ever feel the need to trace this Peter ANDERSON
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I'm guessing you'll discount this deserter as he was only twenty-two, coincidentally the exact same age as the Peter ANDERSON of reply #16. You say your man was forty-ish when he deserted but, for what it's worth, the author Jim Melton says it was very rare for a deserter to be over forty. Most were in their early to mid-twenties, a few in their thirties.
Then again, he also says he is no expert on the subject, merely someone who has compiled a detailed list of thousands of names of deserters.
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There's no mention of a Frederick LAWSON/LARSEN in the book.
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The Otago Police Gazettes from 1862-ish to 1877 (including the twelve covering 1872) have been indexed for the Otago Nominal Index.
There's no mention of a deserter by the name of Peter ANDERSON.
Otago Nominal Index
http://marvin.otago.ac.nz/oni/advanced.php (http://marvin.otago.ac.nz/oni/advanced.php)
Regards
Beg
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Slightly off topic, but interesting nonetheless, I transcribe crewlists and there are quite often one or two crew members who jump ship, but on the list I was doing today, there were 48 who deserted, mostly at New York but some at a port in Barbados. Each time someone deserted they replaced them with other crew members only for them to desert at the next port. I don't know if there were problems with the master and senior crew, or whether these men just wanted to find a better life for themselves in America.
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Hi Fiona
You have two very elusive Swedish ancestors. I cannot seem to find anything on them. I have exhausted all avenues to no avail. To be honest there is too little information unfortunately.
The problem could be worsened by the fact that they probably changed their names as they most likely jumped ship.
If you come across any new info I can then retry again.
All the best.
Ian
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Thank you for trying. I have just been told that my Grandma had been corresponding with someone in Sweden a while back regarding Peter Anderson. I hope to get my hands on these letters and hopefully it will give me some more details.
Once again, thanks for trying. Fiona
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Ok.
Those letters might help.
Let's hope so.
Ian
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How interesting I didn't realise police kept a check -sorry for butting in but my grandfather jumped ship in Auckland I believe and was from Sweden -how would I go about finding out if that was fact or a family story ? Thanks
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Hello Darrell...
Your best bet is to start a new thread on the NZ board.
Just give whatever details you have e.g name, place of birth/death/marriage, NZ residence, spouse, children etc.
Regards
Beg
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Thanks :)