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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: keithgparr on Tuesday 10 November 15 22:16 GMT (UK)
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John Henry Thomas Parr was my father's brother. He was born in Hoxton, Hackney, Shoreditch; appears in the 1901 census as "Dick", but appears to have been referred to as Jack. I've found a baptism record for him which gives his birth date as 30 October 1898.
I have just found a record in the 1939 register which may be him, married to Amy Aney Newman 1895, I've ordered a copy of the marriage certificate. I've not found any children from that marriage (yet).
Apart from that straw, I've been unable to find any other records. Might anyone else have more luck please?
It's a similar story with his sister, Ellen Jane Parr 1897, after the 1901 census - nothing ...
Thanks
Keith
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There seems to be a possible birth Dec 1931 Lambeth
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Did the 1939 say there were any closed records to indicate if there were others in the house?
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Having looked myself Groom it would appear there's only them to there no closed records stated
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@Lisa
Please can you say to which birth you are referring? And maybe where you found it?
@groom
No, as I read the record there were only two people at that address. The birth date of Jack H Parr matches exactly.
Thanks
Keith
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I found the birth on FreeBMD search by typing Parr and mother maiden name as Newman
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Keith, the reason Lisa hasn't given you a name is that someone born in 1931 could still be alive and we are not allowed to mention living people on here. As she said you can find it on Freebmd.
http://www.freebmd.org.uk/
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When did they marry?
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Thank you both, I've found the birth now. Unfortunately no baptism as yet, which might have given the father's name. Need to order a copy of the birth certificate ...
The marriage was 2Q1931 in Lambeth, which fits nicely ...
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There is a person of that said name that does appear on the 1939 register also found the marriage to explain the surname in brackets in 1954
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I've found the 1954 marriage to which you refer, but no brackets ...
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On the 1939 register there is a women matching name and year of birth living with someone under the name of Palmer?
Do you have the parents of you're father and John & Ellen on the 1911 census? or have you found there deaths??
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I feel like a contestant in one of those TV quiz shows, and not a very good contestant at that <grin>. That restriction makes life a tad more complex! Help!
In the 1939 register the woman in question is living with someone with a very similar name and identical birthdate to my father's brother. I don't see how she could also be living with someone called Palmer?
Or, if we are talking about my father's sister, then I can't find a matching record with the correct birth date living with Palmer.
I'm sorry, I need another clue please ...
The parents of Arthur, Ellen, & John were: Thomas William Parr 1867 and Edith Louise Tidy 1873. I can find them in the 1901 census but not in the 1911.
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I'm sorry i wasn't making much sense! i mean the possible daughter of John & Amy in the 1939 register
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Ah! That makes sense. Thank you. And I've found the brackets! I wonder why Wokingham ...? She would have been 8. The only Palmer I know of in the family was born 1730 ish. Maybe in the Rogers family?
The two Palmers in Wokingham look like a widower and his single sister, the possible daughter of John & Amy is still at school. Plus there are two closed records, possibly the Palmer's children?
When did the evacuation of people (children) from the docklands begin, might the schoolgirl be among the first? But Wokingham is still pretty close to London, I would have thought the evacuation would have been later and further away?
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It is possible one of mine lives with a very elderly couple in 1901 and 1911 and her mother is with her family in 1901 and then in 1911 she is married with two other children with no mention of her first born even on the 1911 census when it asks how many children she has she puts 2 when in fact it should be 3! I still haven't managed to find out how my ancestor is related to the people she's been put with!!
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Well, that's moved me forwards, thank you Lisa. The search around the Palmers will have to wait for another day! Time for bed.
Thank you very much for your help!
Keith
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She may have been evacuated as the register was taken 29th September 1939 and the evacuation scheme started at the beginning of September. I know Wokingham doesn't seem that far, but was probably safer than Lambeth. Remember she may not have had any connection with the Palmers, they may just have been a kind couple who took her in.
There were thousands of children evacuated, mainly with their schools, so they just went where they were sent.
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Thank you groom, I hadn't realised that the evacuation began that early.
Might you also know about death records during the second world war? I've been unable to find anything for JHT Parr and Ellen Jane Parr, there's no C1911 record for the Parr family (that I have found so far, ever hopeful!), and no death records (ditto) The 1939 find of JHT Parr with Amy was the first indication that he survived WWI (if it's the right JHT Parr!).
After the war, presumably parents who had survived "reclaimed" their children? And the assumption is that if they didn't claim the children then they had not survived?
I can see I need to do some reading around the Home Front.
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Many of the children who were evacuated from London at the start of the war returned after a few months, in the period known as The Phoney War. It was expected that London would be bombed immediately, but this didn't happen, so a lot parents wanted their children back home. Then of course we had The Blitz in 1940 and children were evacuated again. It must have been very difficult to decide what was best to do, let them go to strangers or keep them with you.
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Were any records kept of children evacuated, returned, re-evacuated, etc.? There must have been quite an organisation to find safe homes.
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Nothing on line, and no central records.
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/evacuees/
I think most were evacuated through their schools. I know the school where I taught had details in their log books. They were evacuated to Shoreham on the Sussex coast. That was fine until they realised that if the German planes still had bombs on board, rather than returning to Germany with them onboard they used to unload them as they flew over the coast!
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Thank you for that pointer to the NA help file, that explains it well. I've also found the Evacuees Reunion Association.
The link through the school sounds like the best bet. Many thanks, groom!
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What was the name of John Henry's mother and father?
ADDED: Just found them on his baptism. Father: Thomas William Parr. Mother: Edith Louise Parr
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They were Thomas William Parr 1867, and Edith Louise Tidy 1873, married 1894.
Three children as far as I can tell: Arthur William, Ellen Jane, and John Henry Thomas. The baptism for JHT has him as John, freeBMD has him as Jack, and the 1901 census has him as Dick. That last is my best interpretation as "John" does not appear, and "Dick" only appears this once.
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Most odd, as you say, they all seem to vanish after 1901 when they were in Brentford Middlesex - I've searched in lots of ways and on different sites but can't find them after that.
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Thank you for searching, at least that gives me confidence that I haven't missed anything obvious. Doesn't help find them tho' <grin>.
Thomas William came from Isleworth, I wonder whether they might have gone back there? But even so, they should show up in the C1911 I would have thought. I find it hard to imagine a reason for a complete vanishing act.
That's why the 1939 register was helpful, the first evidence that JHT at least was still around.
Looking for Ellen Jane in the 1939 is a bit of a challenge, it's reasonable to expect she would have married (but where's the marriage record?), or died (ditto death record), or retained her own name. There are 42 Ellens with the right birthday (09 04 1897) in the 1939 register, I'm not inclined to pay to unlock all of them!
I wonder whether we might be able to find Olive at school before she was evacuated (if that's what she was).
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I tried search for all the family individually, as well as a family group with dates but no surname, and nothing remotely like them came up. If it wasn't for the fact he was your father's brother it would make you wonder if they emigrated. Any idea where your father was around that time?
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My father went to the Argentine in 1920 and stayed there (with occasional trips back to the UK) until 1943 ish when he returned to the UK to sign up for WWII. I don't know why he chose the Argentine.
<http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734978.0>
So where was he in 1911?
I suppose it's possible that the family emigrated as a whole before then, but if that were the case then my father would not have sailed from the UK.
And then we have JHT (apparently) turning up in 1939 having (apparently) married in the UK in 1931.
Additionally, my father gave Jack as next of kin when he joined up for the 1914-18 war in 1914.
It's a puzzle!
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I've just received the marriage record for JHT Parr and Amy Newman. The name given on the record is Jack Henry John Parr, the father's name and occupation being Thomas William Parr, horse keeper. His age matches his birth record to within a year so I'm pretty certain it's my father's brother.
I've also found three Electoral Register entries in Lambeth for 1929, 1930, & 1932, in which Amy and Jack are listed.
But there's still no trace of him (that I can find) in the 1911 census.
There is a death record for a Jack HJ and a Jack HT (both point to the same record) in Holborn 1960 and I'm therefore inclined to accept this as the same person. I probably need to order the death certificate but I'm not expecting it to tell me a lot.
I've not been able to trace probate records for either Amy (died 1973) or Jack (died 1960).
So for the moment I'm looking for other children of JHT & AA, and anything further on Olive ...