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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: jaro on Friday 06 November 15 04:22 GMT (UK)
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Hi Does anyone have any information on Edward W Spokes? He was born in 1854 I think in Port Macquarie N.S.W. Australia.I would appreciate anything concerning him as I have no parent details ,no marriage details or children.Regards Jaro
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If you don't know his parents, nor marriage, nor kids:
What documents did the name, year and place-of-birth come from?
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Birth Reg 1087/1854 V18541087 44A
SPOKES EDWARD W, Mothers name FANNY
Source NSW BMD
From same Source Fanny SPOKES Married William LOVELOCK 1858 Port Macquarie reg district
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I came up with this with a bit of googling;
. WILLIAM2 LOVELOCK (JAMES1) was born c 1819 , and died 1929 in
Walcha, NSW. He married FANNY FRANCES EUPHEMIA FANTASIA SPOKES 1858 in Port
Macquarie, NSW, daughter of JOHN SPOKES and ANN COATES, both convicts. She
was born 1834 in NSW, and died 1918 in Walcha, NSW.
A few Family Trees on Anc for Edward W Spokes 1854 but all Private
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Parish record Birth/Christening:
Edward W SPOKES born 30/12/1854 christened 12/09/1858 #V18541087 44A
St Thomas' (Co. Ayr), Church of England, Port Macquarie
Mother: Fanny
His father was John DOYLE - refer to documents & research in my reply #10 below
Death:
Edward SPOKES d. 12/03/1910 PORT MACQUARIE #2927
Parents: John & Anne (actually they were his grandparents)
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Parish record of Christening:
Fanny SPOKES 1834 #V18344534 121B
Parents: John & Anne
St Andrew's, Presbyterian, Port Macquarie
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Parish record of Marriage:
John SPOKES m. Ann COATES 15 Oct 1838 #V18382047 22 & #V183896 44B
St Thomas' (Co. Ayr), Church of England, Port Macquarie
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Possible NSW death:
33319/1959 William Edward LOVELOCK; Father-William; Mother-Fanny; Walcha
13364/1885 Ada M. LOVELOCK; Father-William; Mother-Fanny; Walcha
13363/1885 Isabella A. COOMBES; Father-William; Mother-Fanny; Walcha
Possible NSW births:
11335/1860 Isabella A. LOVELOCK; Father-William; Mother-Fanny; Port Macquarie
12599/1863 Charlotte J. LOVELOCK; Father-William; Mother-Fanny; Port Macquarie
9948/1866 William E. LOVELOCK; Father-William; Mother-Fanny; Macleay River
11146/1868 Ida M. LOVELOCK; Father-William; Mother-Fanny; Macleay River
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Convicts Permission to Marry:
John SPOKES (Sparkes), Royal Charlotte, 7yrs, Free
Anne COATES age 28, Mary III (5) 7yrs, Bond
1838 - Port Macquarie
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Marriage:
William LOVELOCK m. Fanny SPOKES 15 July 1858 PORT MACQUARIE #2544
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The Mid-North Coast Library have family history files that include certificates, documents, etc., available to download for the LOVELOCK & SPOKES family:
http://mnclibrary.org.au/storage/Lovelock.pdf
http://mnclibrary.org.au/storage/Spokes.pdf
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Marriage:
William LOVELOCK m. Fanny SPOKES 15 July 1858 PORT MACQUARIE #2544
Illawarra Mercury 29July1858 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/136443976
Empire 26July1858 http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60428082
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May be of interest http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/LOVELOCK/2010-08/1282226721
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Thankyou so much to everyone who replied to my query on Edward Spokes.I have also found him in the NSW Police Gazette on Oct 27 1875.Also an appeal in NSW Criminal Court records.Regards Jaro
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Parish record of Marriage:
John SPOKES m. Ann COATES 15 Oct 1838 #V18382047 22 & #V183896 44B
St Thomas' (Co. Ayr), Church of England, Port Macquarie
Following up on Merlin's sightings :)
April 1825
John SPOKES aged 20, native place Reading ENGLAND, a Ploughman. sentenced 29 July 1824 at Oxford transportation 7 years. Arrived per Royal Charlotte 29 April 1825, assigned to W McArthur
1830
John SPOKES ex Royal Charlotte 1825, tried Oxford Assizes.
Ticket of Leave 30/0602.
Allowed to remain in the District of Maitland.
Marriage for John SPOKES and Ann COATES or TOLHURST
15 October 1838, St Thomas, Port Macquarie NSW. I am wondering if Ann may have been a widow
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCL-V6X
Red Post, I will post this info too.
Cheers, JM
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Marriage for John SPOKES and Ann COATES or TOLHURST
15 October 1838, St Thomas, Port Macquarie NSW. I am wondering if Ann may have been a widow
Yes, she was a widow. The marriage transcription from NSW BDM that appears in my reply #10 SPOKES.pdf includes that documented information.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734612.msg5800461#msg5800461
Ann was first married to George TOLHURST another convict. George died in 1837.
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Convict Indents:
No 11-35, arrived per Mary, Sept 7 1835
Anne COATES (the younger), 25, can read, Protestant, single,
Native Place: London, nurse and housemaid cook,
Crime: stealing plate from mistress
Tried at Central Criminal court, 24 November 1834
Sentence: 7 years transportation; nor prior conviction,
Description: 5 ft in height, complexion ruddy and freckled, dark brown hair, dark grey eyes, lost canine tooth right side of upper jaw, front teeth a little prominent, scar under outer corner of left eyebrow
Daughter to 11-34
11-34, arrived per Mary, Sept 7 1835
Anne COATES, the elder, 50, cannot read or write, widow
Native Place: Northumberland
nursemaid, housemaid
Crime: receiving stolen plate
Tried at Central Criminal court, 24 November 1834
Sentence: 7 years transportation; nor prior conviction,
Description: 5ft 3/4in, complexion: pale, grey hair, brown eyes, lost four upper front teeth
Mother to 11-35
Judith
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Old Bailey online has an account of the trial of the mother and daughter Anne COATES
http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=def1-121a-18341124&div=t18341124-121a#highlight
Anne (the younger) had stolen many things from her employer (William PARKER of 19, North-bank, Regent's-park) over a long time, passing the goods on to her mother to pawn.
Judith
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Permission to Marry & Marriage of Ann COATES (snr):
Stephen JORDAN age 68, Morley (2), Life, TOL
Ann COATES age 50, Mary III (5), 7yrs, Bond
Stephen JORDAN m. Ann COATES 30/06/1836 #V1836471 20 & #V183650 44B
St Thomas' (Co. Ayr), Church of England, Port Macquarie
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This man perhaps
JORDAN Stephen
Ship Morley 1818
Number 33/45
Record type -Ticket of Leave [ citation 4/4087; Reel 918]
District: Port Macquarie;
Born: Canterbury; Trade: Gardener;
Tried: Kent GD/Sydney
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexsearch/keyname.aspx
He died
1806/1852 V18521806 38B
JORDAN Stephen
Aged 85
Sue
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Obituary for John SPOKES the father of Fanny SPOKES describing his encounters with the Aboriginal population of Rolland Plains 1889 :D
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/120150276
Obituary for Ann SPOKES. A long life in Australia after such a hard start ;D
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/104753400
Death Notice for William LOVELOCK aged possibly 111 years in 1929 ::)
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/176735537
Sue
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Our Nim 26Feb1929 http://aiatsis.gov.au/sites/default/files/docs/digitised_collections/our_aim/v22s6_a_2_0.pdf (William Lovelock, page 14 right hand column under EBENEZER)
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I really seem to have started something - and am really grateful for all the replies.I particularly found the link to the Mid North Library very interesting.Now I have a really curly one and am hoping someone can help.In 1875 Edward Spokes served a short prison sentence (see NSW Police Gazette 27th Oct 1875 page 315) but after he served his time he seems to have completely vanished,I think he may have changed his name - going for either Doyle, his biological father or Lovelock after William Lovelock who married Fanny Spokes in 1858.If anyone has any info on this theory I would be very interested .Regards Jaro
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Edward SPOKES d. 12/03/1910 PORT MACQUARIE #2927
Parents: John & Anne (actually they were his grandparents)
Why do you think this death given by Merlin in Reply#4 is not the correct man?
Now I have a really curly one and am hoping someone can help.In 1875 Edward Spokes served a short prison sentence (see NSW Police Gazette 27th Oct 1875 page 315) but after he served his time he seems to have completely vanished,I think he may have changed his name - going for either Doyle, his biological father or Lovelock after William Lovelock who married Fanny Spokes in 1858.If anyone has any info on this theory I would be very interested .Regards Jaro
Sue
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Here are a few possible sightings of one Edward SPOKES between 1875 and 1910.
Possible sighting 1875 at Armidale in horse theft case. 1879
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/187716390
Resisting arrest at Armidale in 1887
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/192882154
The name Edward SPOKES supporting the return of a committee man at Rollands Plains in 1907
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/119147180
Sue
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Jaro, the death certificate for
Edward SPOKES d. 12/03/1910 PORT MACQUARIE #2927
should give information re his parents, marriage, children, birth place etc. Of course, the validity of the record depends on the informant's knowledge/truthfulness and already we see that this registration has his grandparents' names (if it's the right person) instead of his parents.
A transcription is cheaper, and quicker than ordering the actual certificate. Scroll down the following page to find a list of official transcription agents - similar service from each one and cost about $AU20
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx
Judith
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Now I have a really curly one and am hoping someone can help.In 1875 Edward Spokes served a short prison sentence (see NSW Police Gazette 27th Oct 1875 page 315) but after he served his time he seems to have completely vanished,I think he may have changed his name - going for either Doyle, his biological father or Lovelock after William Lovelock who married Fanny Spokes in 1858. If anyone has any info on this theory I would be very interested.
^Nonsense^ ::)
1903 NSW ERoll:
Edward SPOKES Cowar, Yarras, NSW - farmer
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May I confirm Merlin’s sighting:
NSW ER 1903, COWPER, polling at Yarras
(71 enrolled to vote at that polling place)
Edward SPOKES, of Cowar, a farmer
NO others of that surname
NO person with surname DOYLE
NO person with the surname LOVELOCK
NSW ER 1903 COWPER, polling at Rolland’s Plains
NO person named Edward DOYLE
NO person with the surname LOVELOCK
NO person named Edward SPOKES, but there’s others with that surname at Rolland’s Plains.
I have had a look at
NSW ER 1878 THE HASTINGS
No person named Edward DOYLE
No person with surname LOVELOCK
John SPOKES, freehold, Rolland’s Plains, Wilson River (in the Port Macquarie Police District)
John SPOKES, junior, residence, Rolland’s Plains, Wilson River (Port Macquarie PD )
James SPOKES, residence, Rolland’s Plains, Wilson River (Port Macquarie PD)
Cheers, JM
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I take it you havent seen the NSW Police Gazette for 27th Oct 1875.I am actually doing this tree for a relative of the other person involved in this offence.Not only that there was a"result".Now unless you can show me another Edward W Spokes with proof that he was the one involved I have no option but to go with the details I have been given.Have nice day Regards Jaro
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I take it you havent seen the NSW Police Gazette for 27th Oct 1875.I am actually doing this tree for a relative of the other person involved in this offence.Not only that there was a"result".Now unless you can show me another Edward W Spokes with proof that he was the one involved I have no option but to go with the details I have been given.Have nice day Regards Jaro
Now I have a really curly one and am hoping someone can help.In 1875 Edward Spokes served a short prison sentence (see NSW Police Gazette 27th Oct 1875 page 315) but after he served his time he seems to have completely vanished,I think he may have changed his name - going for either Doyle, his biological father or Lovelock after William Lovelock who married Fanny Spokes in 1858. If anyone has any info on this theory I would be very interested.
^Nonsense^ ::)
1903 NSW ERoll:
Edward SPOKES Cowar, Yarras, NSW - farmer
May I mention that you do have other options. You do not need to 'go with the details you have been given'. One of those options is to actually conduct the research personally, with the physical records held at the State Records and at State Library, rather than with online commercial websites keyword searchings.
Cheers, JM
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Thanks again to everyone who keeps sending me little snippets.Its all been very helpful -keep them coming regards Jaro
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Majm I take it by your reply you dont have any other options I can go with - shame :'( but thanks for your input.Regards Jaro
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Thanks again to everyone who keeps sending me little snippets.Its all been very helpful -keep them coming regards Jaro
Majm I take it by your reply you dont have any other options I can go with - shame :'( but thanks for your input.Regards Jaro
Hi there Jane,
May I contrast your remarks that I am quoting in this post, with your remarks from my post immediately before this one.
It confuddles me when I read the expression 'little snippets' as I do not consider quoting from an electoral roll to be a snippet of information, but rather simply an official sighting, at the same level of researching as say the sightings in the NSW Police Gazettes.
I do not see any benefit by providing you with any further options, other than to suggest you go through the live links listed at RChat's Resources Board.
Cheers, JM
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May I mention that I have sighted the Police Gazettes and that I have also sighted an image noting that Edward Spoke’s appeal 30th October 1875 “Conviction sustained with £20 costs"
It was a serious crime against the person. The victim was a 16 year old female.
The sentence was 5 months in Port Macquarie gaol.
I add
Sophia COLEMAN is recorded as the mother for Clara COLEMAN, whose birth was registered in the Macleay River district, with NSW BDM ref # 13743 The name of the father of Clara is not displayed at the online index.
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx
Cheers, JM
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Hi Does anyone have any information on Edward W Spokes? He was born in 1854 I think in Port Macquarie N.S.W. Australia.I would appreciate anything concerning him as I have no parent details ,no marriage details or children.Regards Jaro
..........I am actually doing this tree for a relative of the other person involved in this offence.Not only that there was a"result".
Are you suggesting that Clara Coleman was a 'result' .... perhaps if you could type up all the information from her NSW birth certificate there may be some RChatters who may offer some further suggestions for your ongoing enquiries on behalf of Clara's relative.
Cheers, JM
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thanks for your comments & I already had all the info on the charge & conviction.I think we can call this subject closed.Jaro
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If you scroll down through your thread to the option "topic completed" you can easily notify the volunteer moderator who will move off this board.
Cheers, JM
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I think its better if its completed between you & I ,I think WE have said all there is to be said
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I think its better if its completed between you & I ,I think WE have said all there is to be said
I am unsure of your meaning "I think WE have said all there is to be said". I have no knowledge of you, or your own research, or your research on behalf of anyone. I simply looked up my own hardcopy paper resources of the 1903 Electoral rolls, found the particular roll that had been cited, and looked through that particular roll and as a direct consequence I confirmed another RChatter's post, (hopefully as part of the validating of that RChatter's own searchings for you). It is not my place to comment on if your thread is better as a completed thread or not, I have simply explained how you can notify a volunteer moderator to complete your topic.
Add
Doubtful if you can effectively join the dots between the 1858 baptism for Edward, son of Fanny and the chap who spent 5 months in the Port Macquarie Gaol in the 1870s, and the lass who is shown as the mum to Clara on the NSW BDM index.
Cheers, JM
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Hi Does anyone have any information on Edward W Spokes? He was born in 1854 I think in Port Macquarie N.S.W. Australia.I would appreciate anything concerning him as I have no parent details ,no marriage details or children.Regards Jaro
thanks for your comments & I already had all the info on the charge & conviction.I think we can call this subject closed.Jaro
So you did find some information about Edward after all ::).
This is a public forum and the thread is not between two people. Any member of rootschat can contribute information. We are all volunteers who give freely of our time and resources and you can simply say thank you and leave it at that. I also suggest you contact a moderator to have COMPLETED placed in the topic heading on your request if that is your wish.
I will add that Edward's five months in Port Macquarie gaol was with hard labour.
I find your attitude quite strange especially as you state this is not your family.
Cando
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Do you have the actual date Edward SPOKES committed the offence?
You would need to show us proof. Not a family story...
Are there any notations added to the birth certificate for Clara COLEMAN in regards to the father or the reason why the child was illegitimate?
Because without any proof all I can see is that you are using him as a scapegoat for the illegitimate birth of Clara COLEMAN born 14 April, 1876 which was just under 6 months after the date of his conviction :-\
The birth date & registration for Clara COLEMAN is available to the public:
https://familyhistory.bdm.nsw.gov.au/
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Good points Cando and Merlin,
I had been considering the "W" .... as in :
There's that "W" in the topic heading .... what significance would that be, in light of the Police Gazette reports, the birth certificate, the baptismal record, the electoral roll, and the submitted public trees at Ancestry.
Oh well, the topic is to be completed, so there doesn't seem to be much point in getting to any other offline resources that I may hold.
Cheers, JM
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Additional thoughts
When she died, the informant thought Clara's parents were..
6844/1930 HOLBORROW Clara
Father Robert
Mother Sophia
At KEMPSEY
She had married using the surname TEAGUE, the name of the man her mother married.
Mother's marriage
5128/1882 TEAGUE Robert Nicholas
COLEMAN Sophia
At KEMPSEY
Clara's.
4332/1894 HOLBROW Richard
TEAGUE Clara
At KEMPSEY
However, if she had been born inside TEAGUE/COLEMAN marriage, she would be marrying at the age of 13 or14.
Sue
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Hello everyone, I am new to this site. I have been reading with interest the information on Edward Spokes.
My husband's grandmother is Clara Coleman Holborow (wife of Richard Holborow), known to many as Clara Teague. Her mother is Sophia Coleman. We believe that Edward Spokes / Edward W Spokes is the biological father of Clara.
My father-in-law, Wrex Holborow would never speak about his family. He in fact told me he was 9 and 11 when his parents died. It was only after he died that I found out that he was in fact 19 and 21 when they died. So we have always wondered why he would not talk about his parents and generations before. For a long time I believed that Clara's father was Robert Teague. It wasn't until I purchased a copy of Clara's birth certificate that I found out there was no father listed.
Only recently I stumbled across the court case about Edward Spokes and Sophia Coleman and the reason for the court case. Unless Sophia had another relationship other than that with Edward, we have added Edward as the 'probable' biological father of Clara. We have no idea when the actual ‘act’ took place and how long after that, that the court case happened. If anyone can tell me if there are actual court details that say when Edward actually entered the home of Sophia and her parents, that would give us a better idea of timelines.
The fact that Sophia married a man who from all accounts was a well-known, well liked gentleman, community member, it was suggested to us that had Sophia been a person of low standing in the community, Robert would not have taken up with her. A lot of this is conjecture and without descendants of the family in some way confirming what we believe, we are in a position to be corrected, if someone can clarify any of what we believe.
Our belief that Edward Spokes is Clara's father has created quite a bit of angst for some descendants. The possibility that if Edward is Clara's father and if Edward is in fact a descendant of a convict and an aboriginal / part aboriginal woman, has proven to be a stumbling block as far as anyone coming forward with information about Edward, Clara, Edward's ancestors.
We are not trying to upset anyone in any way. We cannot change the past. We just want to have the most correct family tree as we can, so our future generations know where they came from. The circumstances that may have led to the birth of Clara could be as brutal as Edward committing an act against Sophia that was not welcomed, or it could have been that there was a relationship between Sophia and Edward and they were caught. The fact that Edward was a few years older and that Sophia was 16 may have led the parents to be pressured into making this a legal issue.
This far into the future, I have no idea what is true. I would very much like to hear from anyone who can shed any light in any way on Clara and who her biological father is, and any other information on Edward, his descendant, ancestors that we can add to our family tree.
Cheers
Janice
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The circumstances that may have led to the birth of Clara could be as brutal as Edward committing an act against Sophia that was not welcomed, or it could have been that there was a relationship between Sophia and Edward and they were caught. The fact that Edward was a few years older and that Sophia was 16 may have led the parents to be pressured into making this a legal issue.
This far into the future, I have no idea what is true.
Just to clarify, Edward SPOKES was charged with "being in the dwelling house of Edward COLEMAN, Kempsey, with intent to commit a rape...", and the quarter session returns show that he was convicted under the Vagrant Act. If you want to speculate it seems likely that whatever evidence was presented did not prove that an offence was committed against Sophia.
Very few of the quarter sessions papers have survived:
http://www.rootschat.com/links/019f1/
The gaol entrance records state that he was discharged by special remission in Jan 1876. I don't know what that last word is. This record has not been indexed on Ancestry and the years indexed are incorrect, so search instead for Charles WOODERSON in 1874 and you should find the right page.
The fact that Sophia married a man who from all accounts was a well-known, well liked gentleman, community member, it was suggested to us that had Sophia been a person of low standing in the community, Robert would not have taken up with her.
As far as I can see, Clara was raised as their daughter so she wasn't a secret but I don't think you would ever know what Robert was told about the events that led to the birth. Robert and Sophia were married on 12 Jan 1882 and their daughter was born on 20 Jun 1882 so perhaps they were encouraged to marry.
Debra :)
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Is that word "Telegram" Dundee .... :)
Cheers, JM
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Thanks for the information Dundee.
Do you have any information about Edward Spokes after he came out of jail? I have a date of death - 1910 Port Macquarie, but don't know if that is correct.
Cheers
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Hello Dundee,
I don't know what the last word is either in the image you posted. Telegram doesn't seem to fit with the other text, even thought it does look like telegram.
The date on the document you mentioned starts at August 1875.
1874 is the year quoted on Ancestry.com so maybe that is a typo by the person who added the document.
If you find anything else relating to Edward Spokes, I hope you will share with us.
Cheers
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I have asked a few friends what they think the word might be at the end of the text in the photo you posted Dundee. They all seem to think Telegram is the correct word.
I am not familiar enough with documents like this and the terminology that would be used.
Cheers
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Hi there I have seen the post on Edward Spokes I have researched the Spokes family for over 30 years now and I have a hell of lot of paper work on them. My friend Janice has told me that Roots chat was talking about Edward I live in Kempsey NSW.
I will be interested to chat about the Spokes's what I really would like to know who is interested in Edward he was a character for sure, as far as I can work out without doing DNA he had no descendants at all what he went to jail for is molesting a 16 year old [or attempting] in the house of Coleman in Kempsey and the daughter gave birth to a girl months later and on the birth cert stating no father so we all think it could be Edward as the father. Looking forward to hearing from you all Robyn
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Is that word "Telegram" Dundee .... :)
Cheers, JM
The Special Permission re the Discharge may well have been sent through via a Telegram and then the paperwork followed in the official mail.
Cheers, JM
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Thankyou so much to everyone who replied to my query on Edward Spokes.I have also found him in the NSW Police Gazette on Oct 27 1875.Also an appeal in NSW Criminal Court records.Regards Jaro
I am typing up my own transcriptions of some info from some images that have been uploaded to a commercial website. It is likely the originals may be freely available at the Kingswood Archives of the NSW State Records Office.
NSW Police Gazette page 815
27 Oct 1875
Edward Spokes, charged on warrant with being in the dwelling hourse of Edward Colemen, Kempsey, with intent to commit a rape on Sophia Colemen, aged 16 years, has been arrested by Constable Byrnes, Kempsey Police. Sentenced to five months imprisonment in Port Macquarie Gaol. Notice of appeal given.
Was Edward an Aboriginal? May I suggest this is unlikely.
Returns of criminal cases heard at Country Quarter Sessions.
30th October 1875
Edward Spokes,
Appeal from conviction of the Bench of Magistrates, Kempsey of five months hard labour in Port Macquarie Gaol under Vagrants Act.
The conviction of Edward Spokes is recorded as “Conviction dismissed, with £20 in costs".
So the appeal was heard around three days or more after the conviction, perhaps Edward had not even left Kempsey lock up when the Appeal overturning the conviction was heard. Perhaps there's the reason for the Discharged Special Permission being sent by Telegram.
So Edward was NOT a convicted person afterall as he was found not guilty of the charge, on appeal.
Why do I suggest it is unlikely that Edward was of Aboriginal Heritage? …. Well on the same page of the Returns of criminal cases heard at Country Quarter Sessions as the results of that Appeal, there are other FIVE listings and the first (top of the page) is for a chap who is clearly identified by one name only and that name is followed by ‘ (an aboriginal) ‘ I do not see the word “Aboriginal” or ‘half-caste’ or other words of similar intent as used in that era, in either of those two official records for Edward.
I continue to be very very doubtful that Edward was the father of Sophia's child. To be exact, but hopefully without being vulgar .... He was not charged with any 'penetration'.
Cheers, JM
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Edward Spokes was a part Aboriginal his mother was half Native John Doyle was a white man and John Spoke Snr. a convict his partner a Native aboriginal Princess name unknown gave birth to Fanny Spokes B 1.4.1834 Rolland Plains (V18344534121B) Ann Coates was on board the convict ship MARY 3 when Fanny was born hence the late Christening. Fanny was rared by The Innes Family of Port Macquarie a very popular family of the time. That is were the Marriage article in the newspapers state she was a well educated woman
Ch. 13.2.1842 Parents John & Ann (being Ann Tolhurst/Coates), St Andrew Presby.
D 27.8.1918 Walcha (Euphemia Frances Lovelock)
I have all the certificates but Edwards Spokes Death
FANNY GAVE BIRTH TO A SON
EDWARD William SPOKES
B 30.12.1854 V18541087 44A Port Mac St Thomas C/E
Ch. 12.9.1858 at Rolland’s Plains parents John Doyle & Fanny Spokes sponsors E Sercombe & John Spokes
D 12.3.1910 (2927) Port Macquarie father John & Ann Spokes which are his Grand parents.
No doubt he was rared by his grand parents
Cheers Robyn Hand
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There's no mention of Edward Spokes having a middle name in either of those two official records that I have transcribed.
As far as I am aware, I do not have anyone with the surname SPOKES in my ancestors. But, may I ask how it has been determined that the Edward Spokes on those official records is the same chap as the Edward William SPOKES who was baptised 30 December 1854 at Port Macquarie?
Cheers, JM
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Edward W Spokes was born in 1854 he was christened Edward William Spokes and his death was Edward depending who filled out the death cert.
NSW BDM Reg No V18541087 44A/1854 Spokes Edward W Fanny
Death Reg No NSW BDM 2927/1910 Spokes Edward John Anne Port Macquarie
This is the same man Fanny Spokes is his mother and John Doyle is his father but John on the death Cert is his grandfather John Spokes the convict and Ann Coates/Tolhurst is his Step Grandmother I have seen all the evidence and collected over 45 years
Thank you for you help on this page
Cheers
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Hi there,
May I please learn how it has been determined that the chap who was charged under the Vagrant's Act in 1875 at Kempsey is the father of Sophia's child born 1876.
Add
May I explain that I simply cannot join the dots to
a) get from the 1854 baptism to the 1875 charges and/or
b) from the 1875 charges to the 1876 birth and/or
c) from the 1875 charges to the 1910 death.
I am not questioning the dots from the 1854 baptism to the 1910 death, or your 45 years of research.
Cheers, JM
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Another transcription :)
The Will of Edward SPOKES, late of Rollands Plains, Farmer
This is the last Will and Testament of me, Edward SPOKES, Farmer of Bril Bril Creek, Rollands Plains in the State of New South Wales. I hereby revoke any former will or codicil and I appoint Thomas Davenport WILSON, Grazier of Kempsey and Rollands Plains the executor of this my will. I direct my executor to realise and sell as soon after my decease as is practical, all my affects and whatsoever I may be possessed at the time of my decease excepting my old chestnut pony which I do hereby give and bequeath to my brother James SPOKES for his own use and when such effects & possessions shall have been realised and after payment of all my just debts funeral and testamentary expenses I direct that the proceeds shall be divided by my executor between my brothers James SPOKES and John SPOKES both of Rollands Plains in the proportion of two thirds to James Spokes and one third to John Spokes.
Signed and declared by the testator Edward Spokes at Port Macquarie this sixth day of January 1910…..
Witnesses John McDonnough, Hotel Keeper, Port Macquarie
Thomas Woodhouse, Farmer, Hearons Creek.
21 June 1910 Probate Granted
To Thomas Davenport Wilson of Kempsey Macleay River, Grazier, the sole Executor.
Testator died 12 March 1910 at Port Macquarie. Total Asssets £60/10/- Total Debts £74/9/4
So the Edward SPOKES of Rollands Plains who died 12 March 1910 was brother to James and John, both also of Rollands Plains.
Cheers, JM
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NSW BDM online index
Edward SPOKES, parents as John and Anne, Port Macquarie, death date as 12 March 1910 #2927
James SPOKES, parents as John and Ann, Port Macquarie, death date as 4 Jan 1933 #3127
John SPOKES, parents as John and Ann, Port Macquarie, death date 13 Sept 1934 as #15358
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/104474540 Port Macquarie News 14 Jan 1933
Mr J Spokes
We regret to record the death of Mr James Spokes, of Rollands Plains, who passed away at the residence of his nephew Mr J Spokes, jun, on 4th January at the age of 83 years.
The late Mr Spokes was a son of the late Mr and Mrs John Spokes, and was born at Rollands Plains and lived there all his life.
The deceased never married and is survived by an elder brother who is in his 90th year.
The remains were interred in the Rollands Plains Cemetery on Thursday of last week, in the presence of a large gathering of relatives and friends. Canon L Gray conducted the funeral service. The arrangements were carried out by Mr H T Wilkins.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/104474525 Same newspaper different page.
Obit for Mr James SPOKES with info about his late father Mr John Spokes, who had a narrow escape from being killed.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/172249294 Manning River Rives 14 Jan 1933.
James Spokes an old resident of Rollands Plains passed away on 5th instant aged 83 years. Deceased was only ill a few days and in his long span of years he had never required the advice of a doctor. A brother, John, aged 94 years, resides at Port Macquarie.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/162145279 The Northern Champion, 6 Oct 1934.
The late Mr John Spokes whose death was previously briefly mentioned was born at Rollands Plains on May 15 1841, and so had spend upwards of 93 years on the Hastings. He is survived by 11 children, 38 grandchild and 22 great grandchildren. It also includes many details about their father’s narrow escape, and the aftermath.
Many other accounts at the free to search digitised newspapers at Trove
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper?q=
John and Ann/e, likely the parents :
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/120150276 Port Macquarie News 20 April 1889 Mr John SPOKES, death April 1889
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/104753400 Port Mac News 17 Nov 1900
Mrs Ann SPOKES, relict of Mr John SPOKES.
Cheers, JM
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Very good hunting you have the exactly what I have done thank you.
The thing I don't think you are getting it that Edward is not John and Ann son, James and John Jnr are his Uncles they are younger than Edward.
Anyway I'm getting off the subject I work on dates and facts. I live in Port so I will go and find his grave and research some more you never know what one will find digging up the past.
Thank you for your help I have never seen Edward's will your very clever to find that quick it saves me going to Kingswood Cheers
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My husbands grandmother Clara Coleman Teague Holborow has no father listed on her birth certificate. Her son Wrexall Holborow would not talk about his family. He told me he knew nothing about his parents. When I found the information about Edward Spokes and Sophia Coleman, I concluded that Edward could be a possible /probable biological father of Clara. I have no proof.
Without knowing the actual date that Edward entered the home of Sophia Coleman and how long it was before he went to court and then went to jail, I believe that Edward may be Clara's father.
If anyone can conclusively confirm that he is not her father, or tell me who her biological father is, until then I am tentatively adding Edward Spokes at her father.
There is also the possibility that Edward and Sophia had a relationship before "Edward Spokes, charged on warrant with being in the dwelling house of Edward Colemen, Kempsey, with intent to commit a rape on Sophia Colemen, aged 16 years, under the Vagrancy Act" charge against Edward.
I am not saying 100% that everything is true. I am saying it is what I believe to be possible. I am not saying that anyone should automatically accept what I believe. I hope there is someone out there who can shed some more light on what I believe.
I have found all the information added to this post here very interesting and I will be keeping it as data to refer back to.
Cheers
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I confer with you, when the DNA comes back we might know one way or the other
until more evidence is to be proven, I will say Edward is the possible father one will never know
Good night
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Yes I think the same.
I will say Edward is the possible father one will never know
Cheers
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The thing I don't think you are getting it that Edward is not John and Ann son, James and John Jnr are his Uncles they are younger than Edward.
Anyway I'm getting off the subject I work on dates and facts. ....
I understood that many have Edward William SPOKES as the grandson of John and Ann rather than their son.
May I mention :
John who died in Oct 1934 was aged 93 years or there abouts. So he was born about 1840
James who died in Jan 1933 was aged 83 years, so he was born about 1850.
And you are saying that these two are Edward Wiliam SPOKE's Uncles and they are younger than Edward, so that means that Edward was NOT born in the 1850s, but was born much earlier, as he is older than John.
Here’s index details for a baptism for a John Spokes
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XTCV-MZQ born 15 May 1840
Does anyone have the official transcription/s or the officical copy/ies of the death registrations for the 1889 death of John or the 1900 death of Ann ? If so, please check the details of their children as listed on the documents, as at least Edward, John and James survived John and Ann and so should have been available to help provide the family history information on those records. (from one of those newspaper cuttings we learn that in April 1889 John ' interred on his son's property at William's Creek' )
Re the Edward SPOKES who was charged in 1875.
Why has anyone determined that he is the chap who died in 1910?
Cheers, JM
ADD
NSW ER 1870 THE HASTINGS
Edward COLEMAN, householder, West Kempsey
Robert TAGUE, leashold, Belombopine, Macleay River
Grevilles PO Directory 1875 FREDERICKTON
John COLEMAN, carpenter
Robert TEAGUE, farmer
NSW ER 1878 THE HASTINGS
Edgar Albert COLEMAN, freehold, West Kempsey
Edward COLEMAN, residence, Frederickton
John COLEMAN, freehold Frederickton.
Robert TEAGUE, freehold, Belombopine, Frederickton
NSW ER 1903 COWPER, polling at Kempsey
Edith May COLEMAN, Exhibition Lane, domestic duties
Edward COLEMAN, Exhibition Lane, pensioner
NSW ER 1903, COWPER, polling at Frederickton
Robert TEAGUE, farmer, at Yarrabandini
Sophia TEAGUE, domestic duties, at Yarrabandini
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I just give up with you Cheers
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I just give up with you Cheers
Paradise2431,
Do you feel that your many years of Spoke research is being challenged and that is the reason for your remark?
You should bear in mind that Jaro and Mrs Wheelie, the main chatters making this current inquiry, may welcome recent research using sources you have not so far used in your own work.
As a team we are all keen to assist, and try to keep an open mind regarding research findings.
In light of this, I think your remark is quite disrespectful.
Sue
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Re DNA testing....
Here is my transcription of the registry entry at NSW BDM for
Fanny SPOKES’ 1858 marriage, based on the image found in one of those pdfs attached earlier in this thread.
15 July 1858,
at Clarefield, Rolland Plains, according to the rites of the Church of Scotland.
William LOVELOCK, a Bachelor, born New South Wales, a Servant, aged 19, of Rolland Plains, Father: James Lovelock a Stockman and Mother : Cockroach, an Aboriginal Native
Fanny SPOKES, a Spinster, born New South Wales, a Servant, aged 21 of Rolland Plains
Father : John Spokes and Mother: mother’s name unknown
Witnesses : E C NAYLOR and Emma NAYLOR
Clergy : Rev. Edward HOLLAND
Edward Spokes was a part Aboriginal his mother was half Native John Doyle was a white man and John Spoke Snr. a convict his partner a Native aboriginal Princess name unknown gave birth to Fanny Spokes B 1.4.1834 Rolland Plains (V18344534121B) Ann Coates was on board the convict ship MARY 3 when Fanny was born hence the late Christening. Fanny was rared by The Innes Family of Port Macquarie a very popular family of the time. That is were the Marriage article in the newspapers state she was a well educated woman
Ch. 13.2.1842 Parents John & Ann (being Ann Tolhurst/Coates), St Andrew Presby.
D 27.8.1918 Walcha (Euphemia Frances Lovelock)
I have all the certificates but Edwards Spokes Death
FANNY GAVE BIRTH TO A SON
EDWARD William SPOKES
B 30.12.1854 V18541087 44A Port Mac St Thomas C/E
Ch. 12.9.1858 at Rolland’s Plains parents John Doyle & Fanny Spokes sponsors E Sercombe & John Spokes
D 12.3.1910 (2927) Port Macquarie father John & Ann Spokes which are his Grand parents.
No doubt he was rared by his grand parents
Cheers Robyn Hand
Here is the newspaper announcement for that 1858 marriage.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60428082 Empire 26 July 1858
So to me, the question remains ..... how does any of these historic facts, the result of much research, conducted over many years, show that the chap charged in 1875 was the chap who died in 1910?
Re the chap charged in 1875
No mention of a middle name
No mention of his age or occupation
No mention of any Aboriginal heritage
No mention of any family members in the area
No mention of any fixed address (charged under the Vagrant's Act)
No mention of any place of birth
Cheers, JM
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https://www.genealogysa.org.au/resources/online-databases.html
Edward William SPOKES, born 23 July 1856, parents as William SPOKES and Sarah FOSTER.
Born Norwood, Adelaide #7/357
Cheers, JM
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Thank you everyone for your input.
I take no offence at anyone's comments.
I am adding it all to my data.
Every piece of information helps to assist in some way with family research.
With most family trees, today we are depending on the accuracy of someone in the past and how they have recorded names, dates and places. From hand written to typed documents, mistakes can be made. Translating handwriting (from any time in history - to the current day) can be tricky.
Names can be changed, names added, names deleted. So Edward Spokes may or may not be the same person as Edward William Spokes. It all depends on the information given at the time and how that information is recorded.
In another line of my family history, information was 'left out' because it didn't fit with the idea of what was 'right / correct'. Dates were changed.
For so many years, few wanted a convict in their family background. Few wanted aboriginal connections in their family tree. Having the right date for a marriage before the birth of the first child was changed over the years.
So I take everyone's comments for what they are. I add them to my information. As I find something that seems to confirm or deny what I have, I edit my details.
Whether Edward Spokes or Edward William Spokes is in my family tree, I keep this as a possible / probable.
Whether it is ever confirmed as more likely, or 100%, I have no idea.
So please just add what you have, and anyone who is connected will make what they may from everything they see here.
Information / documents from the past whether it is from the family bible, letters to family members, legal documents, etc. We all depend on the accuracy of the person recording the information. Sometimes (and I know for a fact with another of my family trees) dates are changed to make a wedding seem the right length of time before a birth, or a birth month is changed to make the birth seem the right length of time from a marriage date. And yes, even the births deaths and marriage records are not fool proof. There are mistakes.
Newspaper reports can be made more dramatic than the actual events. They were (and again from another family tree) made to fit what was 'correct' for the time in history.
So we are all left to the devices of someone in the past and the records that were kept.
I look forward to seeing more information arising about Edward and his possible connection with Clara.
Cheers