RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: bibliotaphist on Tuesday 03 November 15 22:45 GMT (UK)
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I'm loath to start yet another thread on the 1939 Register; apologies for tacking this on the end of this one (*). Does anyone know the answers to these questions about column 11 of the register - the first column on the second page?
1. What is on the rest of the second page of the original 2-page spread beyond column 11 of each page of the register - why wasn't the whole of the second page scanned?
2. Related - why is column 11 cropped / cut off so short on the right-hand edge of the page image? Three of the five registers I've unlocked have the end of the writing cut off and the already opaque military service reference is partly unreadable :'(
3. I have a couple of entries where column 11 has either a reference to a page ("See page 16" - unless I'm being thick the page images aren't visibly numbered) or "Re-regd" followed by several letters, a number and a date - again cut off short on the right-hand edge. Does anyone know if it's possible to follow up these references?
(edit - answered my own question there. The remote page reference was visible on another page.)
4. Has anyone - such as Findmypast - produced an idiot's guide to the military service jargon we're likely to encounter in that column?
5 (edit - added). One out of the five records I've unlocked consists of three pages. The other four are only one page each. Why's that then?
(edit - answered my own question there. The extra pages were to include the remote page reference.)
Moderator Comment: Topic continued from Register up and running (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734302.0 1939)
* (We split the other topic and started with this one after all as the old one was running into thirty pages) :)
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I agree for the sake of accuracy and completeness, it would be nice if people could get their deceased relatives unredacted, but if they don't already have the certificate, it would be a costly business.
Agreed, but don't we all complete the life cycle in our research by getting death certificates and transcripts of burial registers & tombstones etc. ;)
Surely it's one of the basic rules of research kill off your ancestors. :o
Cheers
Guy
No, we don't all do that. We have financial limitations and must set priorities as to which records we are able to pay for. Some records are potentially more useful than others, so those are the ones we order.
Further, findmypast seems to be rather obstinate on this score since they won't accept photos of headstones, burial records, or obituaries. The National Archives in Canada accepts copies of newspaper obituaries but I have not asked about headstones or burial records, but I expect they would suffice.
In addition, in some jurisdictions it is difficult or impossible to get a death cert if you are not the next of kin. And, as a final point, we may not know what became of the person in the end or know enough details of their death in order to order a certificate. We don't all live in England, you know, and neither do the people who were enumerated on the 1939 Register.
I find it a bit cheeky that you would imply that people aren't doing good research if they don't do it your way.
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Hi
This National Archives guide for the 1939 Register is well worth reading
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/ (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/)
Andy
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Registration was compulsory and people were prosecuted for refusing to register. That was the 'stick'; the 'carrot' was that you needed to be registered to get a ration book. Ration books were prepared using the original household schedules, which were sent to the local Food Offices once the enumerators had finished copying details into the register books.
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When you're trying to go forward, this register is no use, I need to know who officially closed is :-\
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No, we don't all do that. We have financial limitations and must set priorities as to which records we are able to pay for. Some records are potentially more useful than others, so those are the ones we order.
Further, findmypast seems to be rather obstinate on this score since they won't accept photos of headstones, burial records, or obituaries. The National Archives in Canada accepts copies of newspaper obituaries but I have not asked about headstones or burial records, but I expect they would suffice.
I totally understand that some people have financial limitations, but also understand the dangers of not completing the “life cycle” for ancestors where failing to kill them off can lead to wasting vastly more money chasing unconnected lines.
Findmypast have to be obstinate on this. You are potentially asking them to break the law if they get it wrong opening them up to a range of punishment.
They would have far rather have simply scanned the entire register and redacted images of people who complained that they did not their information shared but the law does not allow them to work that way.
They have to show they have shown due diligence when opening these records.
I should also point out FindMyPast have not just sat back now the register is online they have a dedicated team updating the records and removing redactions where possible as proof of death is provided through a number of routes including applicants.
Most of the records were able to be opened when the register went online, more will be opened next week or the week after and so on.
In addition, in some jurisdictions it is difficult or impossible to get a death cert if you are not the next of kin. And, as a final point, we may not know what became of the person in the end or know enough details of their death in order to order a certificate. We don't all live in England, you know, and neither do the people who were enumerated on the 1939 Register.
That is one of the reasons why the applicant has to provide the official proof for those who have since moved abroad.
If the applicant does not what happened to the person they are seeking why should a totally unconnected company who has scanned his/her entry as one of a batch of over 41 million other people?
However the people who were enumerated on the 1939 Register all lived in the Great Britain, at the time, though those in Scotland & Ireland do not appear on this register which is for England & Wales.
I find it a bit cheeky that you would imply that people aren't doing good research if they don't do it your way.
Perhaps you do but that is considered “best practice” here in the UK and has been for many decades.
However in you indignation you missed the smiley at the end of the line indication the remark was tongue in cheek.
Cheers
Guy
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I agree for the sake of accuracy and completeness, it would be nice if people could get their deceased relatives unredacted, but if they don't already have the certificate, it would be a costly business.
Agreed, but don't we all complete the life cycle in our research by getting death certificates and transcripts of burial registers & tombstones etc. ;)
Surely it's one of the basic rules of research kill off your ancestors. :o
Cheers
Guy
Ideally I would love to get official certs for every event, but resources only allow me to get those for the main lines. For more recent deaths of those in not direct line, I satisfy myself with less official (and free) sources e.g my own memory, attendance at funeral, gravestone photos. After all for my own research I don't need to prove to any official that someone has died, I only need to confirm it to myself.
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I am wondering how PStainthorp found the other pages with the written updates on?
Kooky
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I am wondering how PStainthorp found the other pages with the written updates on?
Kooky
See attached image.
One out of the five households I unlocked had a reference in purple ink to "See Page 16".
The right-hand edge of the image had a white arrow indicating it was made up of more than one page. (The other four households didn't have this and are only one page each.)
Clicking on the right-pointing arrow, eventually I got to another page of the register, presumably page 16 where that person's details were entered again - exactly as they were entered on the first page, so not sure why or where it's got me! Hardly counts as an update.
The other reference in blue pencil visible in the attached image, which also relates to one of mine - "22.10.4? / re regd YEHA - 274673[8?] / CA" ...not a clue how to decipher this one!!
(And it's cropped off at the right, which is infuriating.)
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Even if we have the death cert of a married woman it will be in a different name if she was single at the time of the 1939 register; how does this prove its same person. Do we also have to get the marriage cert of this woman to the name she became.
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Even if we have the death cert of a married woman it will be in a different name if she was single at the time of the 1939 register; how does this prove its same person. Do we also have to get the marriage cert of this woman to the name she became.
That's what I was wondering especially as my one married and died in USA.
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I wondered this too - but then looked at my Mum's d/c . She was married and died in the US. Her d/c indicates she was married, gives my father's name and also names her parents. I suppose they could always request a copy of her m/c if they wanted to be difficult.
Presumably as FindMyPast have' carte blanche' over numerous data bases they can see this is the same woman. I suppose more helpfully it names my grandparents whom she was living with on the 1939 Register.
NB I won't be scanning this and handing to over to FindMyPast
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For a woman who was single in 1939, but married between then and 1991, both maiden and married names will be shown on the register. It does for my mother in law and her sisters (all born before Sept 1915 but married after 1939). On death certs (England and Wales at least) there will be the date of birth and maiden name of married women. Not sure when that started, but I think earlier than 1991.
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For a woman who was single in 1939, but married between then and 1991, both maiden and married names will be shown on the register. It does for my mother in law and her sisters (all born before Sept 1915 but married after 1939). On death certs (England and Wales at least) there will be the date of birth and maiden name of married women. Not sure when that started, but I think earlier than 1991.
Only if all these occured in England or Wales of course.
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For a woman who was single in 1939, but married between then and 1991, both maiden and married names will be shown on the register.
Yes, that will be so if they can indeed trace the marriage... if the name on 1939 reg differs to that on the marriage index/entry then they may not find her married name, and thus won't find her death.
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Registration was compulsory and people were prosecuted for refusing to register. That was the 'stick'; the 'carrot' was that you needed to be registered to get a ration book. Ration books were prepared using the original household schedules, which were sent to the local Food Offices once the enumerators had finished copying details into the register books.
This is the leaflet produced at the time
Stan
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Even if we have the death cert of a married woman it will be in a different name if she was single at the time of the 1939 register; how does this prove its same person. Do we also have to get the marriage cert of this woman to the name she became.
Hi
I'm not sure how Findmypast do the checking but one possible way, if the person died in the UK, would be information on the death certificate such as date of death. This could be cross checked with NHS records and their NHS number links to their National Register number. It would be useful if Findmypast did explain how they are going to do it.
Overseas deaths can be more difficult as there may not be sufficient detail on the certificate to positively identify the person so additional information may be required.
Andy
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I contacted FindMyPast on Monday about the missing stretch of Caithness Drive in Crosby, and received an acknowledgement today:
"Thank you for your email to Customer Support.
We have received a higher than usual number of emails and we are working round the clock to respond as quickly as possible.
We wanted to let you know we have your email and you will receive a response as soon as possible. Normally we are able to get back to you within 24hrs so we really appreciate your patience and thank you for waiting a little longer than usual.
Whilst you’re waiting, you may find our Frequently Asked Questions helpful, which can be found here: www.findmypast.co.uk/frequently-asked-questions
Thanks again for your patience."
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I emailed them about a missing stretch of road as well on Monday, but haven't had a reply or acknowledgement yet, wonder just how much is missing?
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Had same response as ShaunJ about half an hour ago. Also to email I sent Monday re 1939 register,
Update,
just got the response to my message, they must have a huge backlog.
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A further instalment:
"Thank you for your email.
I am sorry to hear that you have been unable to find the record you are looking for.
There can be various reasons why a record cannot be found online - not recorded as expected, indexing, different area, criteria entered etc.
To allow us to assist further are you able to confirm which records you have been searching for Caithness Drive?
Many thanks in advance of your co-operation."
Have replied that it's the 1939 Register...
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It will be interesting if I get a similar reply as I gave them all the details in my original email - name, DOB, address and neighbour's names (they are also missing).
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This is the leaflet produced at the time
Stan
That's really interesting, thanks Stan.
I had no idea that it was the enumerators who wrote out the identity cards at the time of collecting the schedules.
I still have my mum's identity card (CCWQ 235 3), with lots of pasted in slips of paper reflecting changes of address (though interestingly none of the address slips show the address to which she was evacuated - all the addresses are in the East End).
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I'm loath to start yet another thread on the 1939 Register; apologies for tacking this on the end of this one (*). Does anyone know the answers to these questions about column 11 of the register - the first column on the second page?
1. What is on the rest of the second page of the original 2-page spread beyond column 11 of each page of the register - why wasn't the whole of the second page scanned?
2. Related - why is column 11 cropped / cut off so short on the right-hand edge of the page image? Three of the five registers I've unlocked have the end of the writing cut off and the already opaque military service reference is partly unreadable :'(
3. I have a couple of entries where column 11 has either a reference to a page ("See page 16" - unless I'm being thick the page images aren't visibly numbered) or "Re-regd" followed by several letters, a number and a date - again cut off short on the right-hand edge. Does anyone know if it's possible to follow up these references?
(edit - answered my own question there. The remote page reference was visible on another page.)
4. Has anyone - such as Findmypast - produced an idiot's guide to the military service jargon we're likely to encounter in that column?
5 (edit - added). One out of the five records I've unlocked consists of three pages. The other four are only one page each. Why's that then?
(edit - answered my own question there. The extra pages were to include the remote page reference.)
I've found the answers to some more of my questions here:
"The right hand page of the Register which we haven't digitised or indexed contains sensitive medical information that we're forbidden from publishing online. If the medical information of an individual stretched over two lines on the right, that person was duplicated on the left. If you see your relative on two lines with identical information, this is why.
"If a note exists on an individual's record that refers to another page, click the arrow on the right to be taken to that page in the image."
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/watch-1436591498.html (https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/watch-1436591498.html)
Presumably the right-hand edge of column 11 has been cropped hard so that there is no chance of inadvertantly publishing any of the sensitive medical info.
And I'm guessing that my person was entered twice with identical name, address, d/o/b and occupation in order to record a change to his (now redacted) medical details.
I'd still like to try and work out how to decipher this reference in column 11 for another individual: "22.10.4? / re regd YEHA - 274673[8?] / CA"
And I still need to bone up on some military acronyms!
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I managed to find my great grandfathers second wife in Shildon, with his son Roy, mistranscribed as Murgrave. Still no George, I did hear from his younger daughter (redacted in the 1939 register) that he was another volunteer for war, yet he was 48 in 1939. At least I know he was probably away from home at the time.
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I'm sure this has already been answered, but my senior brain is having trouble keeping up with all these helpful 1939 threads!
I've found most of my relatives on the free search - I've very few in the U.K. anyway.
There are 2/3 missing who really should be there - all men in their 20s or 30s, so possibly already involved in the army etc.
Are military people to be found somewhere?
regards eadaoin
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So glad to see an active forum on this topic. I have emailed Find My Past with a question but await an answer.
I had such high hopes to answer some questions - but to no avail. I have my grandfather and his German wife, both born before 1914, yet they don't appear on the register. They had three children at that time, so I find it odd they risked not having a ration card.
Would family of registered aliens (if indeed she was registered) appear on a different list?
Names are George Henry Moore & Senta Moore expected to find them in either Kingston upon Hull or Ripon or Harrogate.
(For those who have found bits of streets missing: I have found that if you use the references for those bit of the streets that do appear, and just search on the reference, you will found how parts of streets are often indexed differently)
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(For those who have found bits of streets missing: I have found that if you use the references for those bit of the streets that do appear, and just search on the reference, you will found how parts of streets are often indexed differently)
Not always. I had a "Live Chat" with FindMyPast yesterday and they admitted that the page I was looking for wasn't there, even when using the reference to try to go direct to it.
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I'm sure this has already been answered, but my senior brain is having trouble keeping up with all these helpful 1939 threads!
I've found most of my relatives on the free search - I've very few in the U.K. anyway.
There are 2/3 missing who really should be there - all men in their 20s or 30s, so possibly already involved in the army etc.
Are military people to be found somewhere?
regards eadaoin
One of my uncles born 1911 was still at home September 1939 and he's on the register with his wife but I do know he served in the army, whereas another uncle was mobilised straight away and is not to be found anywhere.
For one of my searches I used just the street (Avenue) name and amongst the list of the street's residents were three more males in their 20s - unfortunately if anyone is looking for them (and three others) they will probably not find them as their surnames are "~???" (see below).
Kingston-upon-Hull C.B. Yorkshire (East Riding)
Lamorna Avenue, Chamberlain Road, Hull.
Frederick C ?Yse born 1905 Ref: RG101/3163G/006/3
Susannah ?Yse born 1885 Ref: RG101/3163G/006/4
Annie E A?Nott born 1885 Ref: RG101/3163G/007/20
Edwin H ~??? born 1913 Ref: RG101/3163G/007/38
Fred ~??? born 1915 Ref: RG101/3163G/006/1
~??? ~??? born 1914 Ref: RG101/3163G/007/39
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Just sent my first entry to get unlocked. 7 redacted out of 11 but i worked out one who has already moved out and Know that there's 2 i have certs of to send in. The one i;ve sent in died a year ago.
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If I had a German Wife in September 1939 I would keep my head down and try to avoid officialdom. That may be the reason they are not on the 1939 Register.
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If I had a German Wife in September 1939 I would keep my head down and try to avoid officialdom. That may be the reason they are not on the 1939 Register.
The problem is if they did that they wouldn't have identity cards and so then wouldn't get ration books. According to the National Archives, lots of people did try to avoid it, thinking that by doing so they, or their children, would avoid conscription. They soon realised they had no choice, but I suppose they wouldn't then appear on the 1939 register.
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That's what I thought Barry. But I was imagining if the war had just started and you had no idea how long it would last, you'd be desperate for a ration card. The pair of them popped up in a newspaper obituary for his brother & wife killed in the Hull blitz of 8th May 1941, so they were still around. If she was stopped by officialdom through her accent (she'd only been married 8 years) things would be very sticky without an ID card.
Will have to read up on the black market!
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I'd still like to try and work out how to decipher this reference in column 11 for another individual: "22.10.4? / re regd YEHA - 274673[8?] / CA"
Re-registered for some reason, no idea why.
Not entirely sure about the 1939 versions, I 'think' the 4 letters probably designated a district of registration but don't know about the numbers. The National ID number was used as the basis for the old style NHS numbers when the NHS was born.
If you are short of extraneous facts <g>:
Those of us born 'after' the NHS came into being had a 4 letter code and then a number as our NHS number.
The four letter code again, I think, designated an area but don't know how large or small an area and the numerical part is the register entry number on your birth certificate. Mine matches exactly, the number part of my old NHS number was 117 and my birth cert says that was the entry number in the births register.
My husband's NHS no. and birth cert match up too. We are 1950s vintage.
Our daughters were born 1979 and 1980, their old style NHS number is written on their birth certs and the register entry number matches the numerical part of the NHS number.
NB this is old style (pre 1996) NHS number, not National Insurance number.
Boo
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I have used the site once and was very pleased. Searching for Rolf Creasy, born Colombo, Ceylon, 1863, with no apparent record of his birth in Ceylon. Ceylon is a bit hit and miss on their records. Surgeon, Retired, on the 1939 Register. Birth date given with wife and Housekeeper. 1930's/1940's lived at Red Chimneys, Pigeonhouse Lane, Rustington, Worthing, Sussex. Electoral Rolls. Address on 1939 Register, Red Chiss, Pegconhouse Lane, Worthing Rural District, Sussex. Not a problem for me but this may be a reason why some people cannot be found.
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Has government (or anyone) ever published a list of NHS Letter prefixes in relation to where they were registered. I am a FJNJ.
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Names are George Henry Moore & Senta Moore expected to find them in either Kingston upon Hull or Ripon or Harrogate.
have you tried searching on date of birth? There are a lot of people transcribed as question marks.
could Senta have used a different name for registration purposes?
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Did Senta go to Canada in 1956?
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I've just watched a video on the 1939 Register on the National Archives website. This - and other sources - keep repeating that everyone was included and no one was left out.
I've searched over and over again for my 2 sets of grandparents, without success. I've tried likely addresses and, guess what, most of them don't appear on the searches.
My question is: human nature being what it is, there will obviously have been quite a few people who weren't 'caught' first time round but must have been caught up with or how did they get Identity Cards and ration books? Is there an appendix to the Register which lists these people or were they just swept up into the system 'as and when'?
In a way, I admire my family for avoiding the initial bureaucracy but I know they must have finally been accounted for - I still have my mother's identity card!
I've given up now - no point keeping looking for something that clearly isn't there!
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Could be some people were abroad or at the time of the register, or just grossly mistranscribed or even gave false info. I like the word enumerator when describing this register, the great substitute to the non survival of the 1931 census and no 1941 census taking place.
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Has government (or anyone) ever published a list of NHS Letter prefixes in relation to where they were registered. I am a FJNJ.
See http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/national-registration-day-29-september-1939/
and http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2995124
Stan
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Could be some people were abroad or at the time of the register, or just grossly mistranscribed or even gave false info. I like the word enumerator when describing this register, the great substitute to the non survival of the 1931 census and no 1941 census taking place.
Or not!!
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I've searched over and over again for my 2 sets of grandparents, without success. I've tried likely addresses and, guess what, most of them don't appear on the searches.
Are you saying the people still don't appear at those addresses or that the addresses don't appear in the search?
If it is the latter, then you are not alone. I had to "Live Chat" FindMyPast, as an address I was searching for would not show up, but in going through the reference and adjusting the numbers (using the tips elsewhere on this forum), it turns out that the item (the sheet of about 40-50 individuals) was not on the system (confirmed by them), so would never have been found if I hadn't reported it. I have another one where I think the same applies, but haven't had the time yet to go through person-by-person comparing to the last previious electoral roll and a local map, to prove that is the case.
The guy from FindMyPast intimated that it wasn't an unusual occurance!
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Has government (or anyone) ever published a list of NHS Letter prefixes in relation to where they were registered. I am a FJNJ.
See http://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/blog/national-registration-day-29-september-1939/
and http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C2995124
Stan
Given the interest in WWII identity cards I'm surprised no-one's published a list of the area codes already. I wonder if TNA could be leaned upon to digitise and publish the enumerator's instructions http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1926182 (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C1926182) to the web?
From the looks of things, YALA* might have been a London code (see thread at http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/boards/board/general_chat/thread/1313457 (http://www.GenesReunited.co.uk/boards/board/general_chat/thread/1313457)). I know that my person did move to London during or after the War so perhaps this explains the re-registration. Maybe she moved there in 22.10.194[?] as the re-registration note suggests?
Shame the later additions to the register are not being made available.
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I've searched over and over again for my 2 sets of grandparents, without success. I've tried likely addresses and, guess what, most of them don't appear on the searches.
Are you saying the people still don't appear at those addresses or that the addresses don't appear in the search?
If it is the latter, then you are not alone. I had to "Live Chat" FindMyPast, as an address I was searching for would not show up, but in going through the reference and adjusting the numbers (using the tips elsewhere on this forum), it turns out that the item (the sheet of about 40-50 individuals) was not on the system (confirmed by them), so would never have been found if I hadn't reported it. I have another one where I think the same applies, but haven't had the time yet to go through person-by-person comparing to the last previious electoral roll and a local map, to prove that is the case.
The guy from FindMyPast intimated that it wasn't an unusual occurance!
i think I seem to be in the same situation with my grandparents - if I address search there appears to only be the odd numbers in the street listed and they lived at no 16!!
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Northern Rose - I replied to your other thread ;)
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Are you saying the people still don't appear at those addresses or that the addresses don't appear in the search?
If it is the latter, then you are not alone. I had to "Live Chat" FindMyPast, as an address I was searching for would not show up, but in going through the reference and adjusting the numbers (using the tips elsewhere on this forum), it turns out that the item (the sheet of about 40-50 individuals) was not on the system (confirmed by them), so would never have been found if I hadn't reported it. I have another one where I think the same applies, but haven't had the time yet to go through person-by-person comparing to the last previious electoral roll and a local map, to prove that is the case.
The guy from FindMyPast intimated that it wasn't an unusual occurance!
I'm saying the latter - the addresses don't appear in the search. Could you possibly send me a link to this 'adjusting the numbers' tip as I can't seem to find it.
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I'm saying the latter - the addresses don't appear in the search. Could you possibly send me a link to this 'adjusting the numbers' tip as I can't seem to find it.
There is a Tips thread floating about, which I can't seem to find at the moment. But I paraphrased it here, in answer to a similar query by Northern Lass:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734495.msg5799047 (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734495.msg5799047)
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TIPS THREAD....
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734390.new;topicseen#new
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I don't want to appear to be defending FindMyPast (I have no affiliation with them whatsoever) but I can imagine the people involved in this project there must be running around like headless chickens or rabbits in the headlights.
Every dataset any company releases has transcription errors and ommissions to a greater or lesser degree.
(The LMA dataset was put online with Ancestry in 2009 and despite asking for the gaps to be filled, they remain.)
I don't like being used as a guinea pig to 'test' the accuracy of their data and if we are doing a good job here picking holes in things, imagine what it's like on every other genealogy forum out there. I don't know who transcribed the data and why there appear to be so many errors. You may be finding them because you know what should be written there.
They can and have tested the data and the systems - which don't appear to have failed yet. After the unpopular website upgrade earlier this year, I joined the 'working party' to be involved in other projects. Sadly work committments prevented me from attending the sessions for this, but I know that plenty of others did. They do have past experience of many thousands of people all hitting the website at the same time looking for results.
I really do sympathise with those of you who spent hard earned pounds buying credits and being disappoited with the lack of results.
The same happened with the 1911 census and the spectaular internet meltdown of the 1901 census which came online, went bang, and disappeared offline for another 6-8 months (I forget which).
It could be all to easy for them to take the whole thing offline and face the flak for that.
They are damned if they do, and damned if they don't.
It's hard asking you to have patience while FindMyPast sort these things out. They have committed to the project with TNA, they want the best outcomes for you - the paying customer, themselves (and their shareholders).
This dataset isn't going to go away. It will be there for a very long time and I hope in due course becomes part of a subscription package as the 1911 census did after about a year.
I'm sure they are grateful to us for providing feedback, even if it is negative. It points them in a direction and gives them the opporunity to sort things out.
I hoping to get to Kew one day next week to check out my own families, I don't have many to look for so should have time to do some look-ups for you and will sort something out for that when I know what day I'm going. It should give those of you without credits the opportunity to ask me to check an entry out for you that you have found by using the search techniques but aren't sure if the entry is correct.
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Has government (or anyone) ever published a list of NHS Letter prefixes in relation to where they were registered. I am a FJNJ.
I asked the National Archives on Twitter. They say it's planned.
https://twitter.com/UkNatArchives/status/661948361529040904 (https://twitter.com/UkNatArchives/status/661948361529040904)
But then I found this. I don't know if it's the same thing... seems to be 3-letter rather than 4-letter codes.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/1939-register-enumeration-districts (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/1939-register-enumeration-districts)
For my "YALA" reference... "ALA" in the above list is Islington. Is YALA a subdistrict of ALA?
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But then I found this. I don't know if it's the same thing... seems to be 3-letter rather than 4-letter codes.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/1939-register-enumeration-districts (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/1939-register-enumeration-districts)
For my "YALA" reference... "ALA" in the above list is Islington. Is YALA a subdistrict of ALA?
From the blog that Stan gave us a link to
The National Register identity numbers issued by enumerators comprised an area code, denoted by four letters, then two numbers, in the format ABCD 123:4. The first three letters were the area code, starting with AAA in the City of London, and ending with ZZJ in Radnorshire. The fourth letter represented the enumeration district, and the two numbers were the household schedule, followed by the person’s position in the household.
BUT , it also says:
Anyone applying for a replacement for a lost or stolen card was placed on the ‘Y’ Register.
and that Y seems to go at the front, as its not an enumeration district, the letter for which would go at the end of the code.
Boo
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Dear Dawnsh
Thank you very much for the advice you gave regarding the TNA reference to search.
It took my addlepated brain a while to work out how but even a blind hen can find a corn!!
I found one of my aunts but when I looked at the preview a Walton Household appeared which I couldn't connect to my family. I still do not know the connection but using your advice I found that her sister was living there, too so it is clear that these are my aunts.
I can't thank you enough. My aunt's daughter has absolutely no knowledge of her family. I have traced her father and his family. Her father died when she was an infant and her mother married again. Now I can help out with our common ancestors and also her father's ancestors.
With best wishes
Gill
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BUT , it also says:
Anyone applying for a replacement for a lost or stolen card was placed on the ‘Y’ Register.
and that Y seems to go at the front, as its not an enumeration district, the letter for which would go at the end of the code.
Aha. Well spotted and thank you. So her card was lost (in Islington if the *ALA bit is still meaningful) in 19-forty-something and she was given a new number for her replacement card.
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Names are George Henry Moore & Senta Moore expected to find them in either Kingston upon Hull or Ripon or Harrogate.
have you tried searching on date of birth? There are a lot of people transcribed as question marks.
could Senta have used a different name for registration purposes?
Hi LizzieL I've tried quite broad searches by years for them. I'll try the exact dob now. I've no idea where they might live so can't use the address function for this.
Yes Senta emigrated to the USA in '56. I wondered if they get struck off the list retrospectively if this happens. Although I don't know how the NHS/Govt would match up the records if that's the case.
Perhaps there's more missing from the transcription than is to be expected.
Norrette
UPDATE: Yippee that worked with the birthdate, both together so both must be illegible. Better dig into my pocket now 8) Thanks Lizzie
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(Re-asking on this thread)
In the right hand information section there is info about ambulance drivers / ARP etc
My male grandfather (bus conductor) is listed as PWC 122/12067
this looks like it was added later
Anyone know what that means ?
volunteer police constable maybe or similar ?
Thanks
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I have just picked this snippet up from FindMyPast regarding transcription errors
On the transcription pages there is an error report button. If you're on the transcript preview can you please email the errors to support@findmypast.co.uk. Thanks
So you don't have to buy the record to be able to report mistranscription and would suggest adding the reference number from the free preview as well.
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Hi Steph
If the question hasn't been answered it may be because no-one here knows.
Maybe try contacting FindMyPast
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/help/contact
they have a 'live chat' facility during uk office hours which could mean an almost immediate answer.
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And found an error already (though in their defense it may well have been my great grandmother messing up her birthdate) she was born 24 March 1884, they have (from the glitch shown on here as haven't paid to view the original) it as 24 Mar 1885
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My uncle born 1933 died 1978, is on there with the correct date of birth but with the year of 1936.
So how could they have matched his death up with his birth in the past?
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Hi Carol
The Register was a working document and was updated until c1991. In theory if a person died the letter "D" was recorded on the Register and that is what Findmypast would have used to unredact a person who was born less than 100 years ago. Whilst no doubt some errors would have been made by Findmypast in transcribing the records I suspect the majority of the issues people have raised relate to the accuracy of the updates made by civil servants over the 50 year period. Where they advised a person was deceased? Was it recorded against the correct period? Without actually seeing that part of the record we really don't know.
Andy
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Hi
I am hoping someone can suggest some ideas to help me locate my grandmother in the register. Her name was Constance Glady Rook and she was born on in July 1919. She married my grandfather William John Donovan in Stepney in 1937, however on the marriage certificate she has taken 3 years of her age (saying she is 21) and called herself Mary Constance Rook. On my father's birth certificate she is down as Constance Gladys Donovan (nee Rook) and yet on the birth certificate of my uncle (born 1940) she is named as Mary Constance Donovan. On a family tree drawn up when I saw born we have her surname as Brook (provided by her or misheard by someone) but her birth certificate clearly says Rook/Rooke. She died in 1992 and all through my life and my dad's life we've only known her as Constance (or Constance Gladys), never Mary. I have tried a number of combinations: Constance, Constance Gladys, Gladys, Gladys Constance, Constance G, Mary Constance, Constance Mary, Mary C, etc and been unble to find her. William appears to be in Stepney although the register has his year of birth incorrectly as 1908 rather than 1907. Can anyone suggest any tips?
Matt
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Hi
I am hoping someone can suggest some ideas to help me locate my grandmother in the register. Her name was Constance Glady Rook and she was born on in July 1919. She married my grandfather William John Donovan in Stepney in 1937, however on the marriage certificate she has taken 3 years of her age (saying she is 21) and called herself Mary Constance Rook. On my father's birth certificate she is down as Constance Gladys Donovan (nee Rook) and yet on the birth certificate of my uncle (born 1940) she is named as Mary Constance Donovan. On a family tree drawn up when I saw born we have her surname as Brook (provided by her or misheard by someone) but her birth certificate clearly says Rook/Rooke. She died in 1992 and all through my life and my dad's life we've only known her as Constance (or Constance Gladys), never Mary. I have tried a number of combinations: Constance, Constance Gladys, Gladys, Gladys Constance, Constance G, Mary Constance, Constance Mary, Mary C, etc and been unble to find her. William appears to be in Stepney although the register has his year of birth incorrectly as 1908 rather than 1907. Can anyone suggest any tips?
Matt
As your grandmother was born after 1915 and died after 1991, she will be redacted in the register, so will not show in searches.
Assuming the 1908 William in Stepney you mention is the correct one, I can see he is the only one in the household, so she is not hiding there.
Apart from your uncle, you don't say when any other children were born. If any were born in or before 1939, it is quite possible that your granmother and the children had been evacuated, so may be somewhere you don't expect, but owing to her being redacted, she will be very hard to find.
Sorry :(
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What does it say on the transcription of William? If there are people on there that are still closed one could be her as she was born after 1915 and died after 1991.
Sorry, ReadyDale, missed your answer!
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Hi
Thanks to both of you for the answers. I suspect she may be down as one of the closed entries but I have her death certificate so if I can pin her down I should be able to get her opened (so to speak). The only issue is that no results are shown using any known name combination for her. Does the resister cover Scotland?
With regards to my grandfather there are two possible candidates. There is a a William J Donovan born 1907 living in the Orpington district with someone else, and there is the William in Stepney. This second William was found by just entering his name and day and month of birth (04 04).
It is also possible that my grandmother might have been staying with her sister Doris Hewer and brother in law James. When my nan married in 1937 she gave her address as 24 Bigland Street, Stepney. This was where her sister Doris Hewer and brother in law James Francis Hewer lived. I have the Hewer family living at that address on electoral registers for several years. When I looked up 24 Bigland street in the register, Doris and James are still there. There are also 3 other people (I think) plus one closed record. If the William in Stepney is mine, then it may be that Constance is here with the Hewer family.
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PS
I don't have a subscription to Findmypast and don't want to keep paying for credits or take a subscription out. Is it possible to view these somewhere for free such as TNA, the library, or Society of Genealogists?
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So glad to see an active forum on this topic. I have emailed Find My Past with a question but await an answer.
I had such high hopes to answer some questions - but to no avail. I have my grandfather and his German wife, both born before 1914, yet they don't appear on the register. They had three children at that time, so I find it odd they risked not having a ration card.
Would family of registered aliens (if indeed she was registered) appear on a different list?
Names are George Henry Moore & Senta Moore expected to find them in either Kingston upon Hull or Ripon or Harrogate.
(For those who have found bits of streets missing: I have found that if you use the references for those bit of the streets that do appear, and just search on the reference, you will found how parts of streets are often indexed differently)
During WW1, married women were understood by the British gov't to have a primary loyalty to their husbands. Thus, if a British woman married a German, she acquired his status as an alien. "Love, honour, and obey."
Most of the Germans in Britain at that time were either men, or women married to Germans. German women married to Brits were not common and I'm not sure how their status was defined, but it would seem, logically, that they would have been seen as non-threatening because they were deemed to be under the influence of their husbands.
I'm not sure how this worked out in WW2, but it is some background info.
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Hi Carol
The Register was a working document and was updated until c1991. In theory if a person died the letter "D" was recorded on the Register and that is what Findmypast would have used to unredact a person who was born less than 100 years ago. Whilst no doubt some errors would have been made by Findmypast in transcribing the records I suspect the majority of the issues people have raised relate to the accuracy of the updates made by civil servants over the 50 year period. Where they advised a person was deceased? Was it recorded against the correct period? Without actually seeing that part of the record we really don't know.
Andy
Andy what I am saying is that he is down on the register with the wrong birth year,and he died in London in 1978 rather than up north,so how did they tie the two people up,when my mum gave the correct date of birth for her younger brother ?
Carol
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MattD30 - I believe that they can be viewed for free at TNA. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
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During WW1, married women were understood by the British gov't to have a primary loyalty to their husbands. Thus, if a British woman married a German, she acquired his status as an alien. "Love, honour, and obey."
Most of the Germans in Britain at that time were either men, or women married to Germans. German women married to Brits were not common and I'm not sure how their status was defined, but it would seem, logically, that they would have been seen as non-threatening because they were deemed to be under the influence of their husbands.
I'm not sure how this worked out in WW2, but it is some background info.
The Convention on the Nationality of Married Women was not passed by the UN until 1957 - and has still not been ratified by the UK!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Nationality_of_Married_Women
Before 1870 a British woman retained her nationality when she married an alien, though twenty-six years previously, in 1844, alien women marrying British subjects had been granted British nationality. The 1870 Naturalisation Act, to regularise the position, took away British nationality from women marrying foreigners.
This remained the position until after WW2
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Hi Carol
The Register was a working document and was updated until c1991. In theory if a person died the letter "D" was recorded on the Register and that is what Findmypast would have used to unredact a person who was born less than 100 years ago. Whilst no doubt some errors would have been made by Findmypast in transcribing the records I suspect the majority of the issues people have raised relate to the accuracy of the updates made by civil servants over the 50 year period. Where they advised a person was deceased? Was it recorded against the correct period? Without actually seeing that part of the record we really don't know.
Andy
Andy what I am saying is that he is down on the register with the wrong birth year,and he died in London in 1978 rather than up north,so how did they tie the two people up,when my mum gave the correct date of birth for her younger brother ?
Carol
I'm not familiar with the process in the UK but I would think that other Government Departments such as the NHS and/or whoever handles National Insurance would be advised of a persons death perhaps by the Medical Practitioner who certified the death.
Andy
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Well, I received an acknowledgement from FindMyPast re my query about records missing from a section of a road and today received their answer. It is obviously a standard reply, as it is the same as one quoted either here on on an earlier thread and doesn't address my specific question, but tries to fob me off suggesting I may not be searching correctly.
I have now sent another email and will await that reply.
I know they must be inundated with queries, but I would have preferred them to answer saying that yes there were missing records from the scan and that they were trying to rectify it, instead of them almost blaming me for not using it properly.
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Yes Senta emigrated to the USA in '56. I wondered if they get struck off the list retrospectively if this happens. Although I don't know how the NHS/Govt would match up the records if that's the case.
Perhaps there's more missing from the transcription than is to be expected.
Norrette
UPDATE: Yippee that worked with the birthdate, both together so both must be illegible. Better dig into my pocket now 8) Thanks Lizzie
I thought it was them - still in Yorkshire but not the towns you thought. I got birthdate from passenger list.
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PS
I don't have a subscription to Findmypast and don't want to keep paying for credits or take a subscription out. Is it possible to view these somewhere for free such as TNA, the library, or Society of Genealogists?
You can view for free at TNA. If you aren't going imminently, then see the bottom of my reply here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734467.msg5799121#msg5799121
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But then I found this. I don't know if it's the same thing... seems to be 3-letter rather than 4-letter codes.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/1939-register-enumeration-districts (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/1939-register-enumeration-districts)
For my "YALA" reference... "ALA" in the above list is Islington. Is YALA a subdistrict of ALA?
For those born post WW2 and using the number only as NHS number, should it refer to place of birth or place where parents resided when baby was born? Neither work for me. My brother was born in same hospital as me a few years later and his last three letters are different. ???
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I'm not familiar with the process in the UK but I would think that other Government Departments such as the NHS and/or whoever handles National Insurance would be advised of a persons death perhaps by the Medical Practitioner who certified the death.
Andy
In UK, the doctor who certifies the death issues a certificate showing the medical cause to the next of kin or whoever is responsible for registering the death. They take that to the Registrar who gives them two documents, one is a form to send to DHSS and the other is authority for undertaker ( I think it was green). These are free of charge, any required copies of death certificate need to be paid for (lower rate than getting them from GRO afterwards.)
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Hi LizzieL
I know a death certificate doesn't include a persons NHS number but do you know if the certifying form issued by the Doctor does? and if so is it included on the form to the DHSS?
Andy
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PS
I don't have a subscription to Findmypast and don't want to keep paying for credits or take a subscription out. Is it possible to view these somewhere for free such as TNA, the library, or Society of Genealogists?
You can view for free at TNA. If you aren't going imminently, then see the bottom of my reply here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734467.msg5799121#msg5799121
So, does this mean they haven't destroyed the originals yet?
I'm also trying to envision how they would let you look at one side of the page without seeing the other. I suppose there must be a way.
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So if you visit Kew Archives you can view the original document for free, having first located your TNA reference or address .... and can you also see the closed items in a household?
If so, does redaction only apply to online data? as I've noticed some house numbers in a street are closed although I can see the householders name if I view the same address in a 1939 streetdirectory.
If not, can you ask them to check if it's a specific name and then, if it's who you think, give evidence of the death.
I feel that paying £25 to TNA for a lookup in order to correct their database is not fair.
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PS
I don't have a subscription to Findmypast and don't want to keep paying for credits or take a subscription out. Is it possible to view these somewhere for free such as TNA, the library, or Society of Genealogists?
You can view for free at TNA. If you aren't going imminently, then see the bottom of my reply here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734467.msg5799121#msg5799121
So, does this mean they haven't destroyed the originals yet?
I'm also trying to envision how they would let you look at one side of the page without seeing the other. I suppose there must be a way.
No the 1939 National Register is viewed on computers at the National Archives it is the same the one you see at home on your computer except you do not have to pay for access.
The paper register is kept at the GRO in Southport and is not open to the public.
Cheers
Guy
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No you can't view the original, they haven't been destroyed yet, you can access what FindMyPast has put online for free without the need to purchase credits.
No, you can't view the redacted entries online at TNA, they stay redacted.
You can only ask TNA to un-redact a closed entry of someone born after 1915 where you have a copy of thier death cert and their address at the time in 1939.
unredactions at TNA will cost £25 to process, free if you pay for credits for FindMyPast and then supply the death cert to FindMyPast.
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unredactions at TNA will cost £25 to process, free if you pay for credits for FindMyPast and then supply the death cert to FindMyPast.
Thought the Free unredation service was only free via FindMyPast if you have a subscription with them, not if you use pay-as-you-go credits.
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I've just had a thought re my earlier post about missing records in a road and my query to FindMyPast. I know that my father would be in the house but would be on the closed list. Can I send a request to FindMyPast, with a scan of his death certificate, give the actual house number and ask for it to be opened even though I can't find that address, or do I need the to find the family first? In which case it is catch 22!
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I think this could be a very useful resource. My Grandparents, George & Senta, turned out to have opened up a house for their and their siblings children and a couple of the mothers; so they were far from the black marketeers I thought they were 24 hours ago ::) I found an intriguing fact that he had worked for the RAF (on the right hand side of the page) as a photographer - given that his father -in-law in Germany may also have worked at an aircraft factory and was also a photographer...I feel an interesting tale gestating. Hoping that I can eventually get to see the rest of the right hand page at the NA. (Oh, just read the new posting below :( )
But I hope that Find My Past are continuing to work on this project. The many "-??" appearing should be researched by themselves. In my particular case - although irrelevant for my search, the village that they lived in was completely mis-transcribed. They should at least re-check each town/village incomplete transcription to ensure that it is correct.
In consequence, many of the so-called value added items such as maps etc are incorrect - am I getting my 6.99 worth? (yes, I know they are available elsewhere, but imagine a less experienced researcher)
For others - if they are hoping to find the village on the list under the district, they may think it is missing.
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unredactions at TNA will cost £25 to process, free if you pay for credits for FindMyPast and then supply the death cert to FindMyPast.
Thought the Free unredation service was only free via FindMyPast if you have a subscription with them, not if you use pay-as-you-go credits.
If you don't use 1939 credits or credits you've acquired along the way 'unlock' the 1939 address, you won't be able to process the unredaction application online.
I'm not sure of the process yet but you can unlock the address at TNA but can't apply for the unredaction unless you pay £25.
I'm going next week so I'll find out more then.
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I don't have a FindMyPast subscription but I have an account with them and used pay-as-you-go credits for some time now and have many more.... I used 60 of them to unlock an address/household to view this 1939 register only to find a closed entry which I believe is my mother born May 1919 and died Dec 1970. On her birth cerificate she is Evelyn Wright and may have been this name in 1939, however she married Kenneth Partridge in 1942 using name Joan E Wright, and death index is Joan E Partridge. So I suspect the TNA's checking procedure did not identify her as the same person. In the same household is her mother, her mother's sister and her mother's sister's daughter - who I might add is not closed and very much still alive.
The information page regarding opening a closed record says if you're a FindMyPast subscriber you can use an online form - but where's the link to that???? ... and also says if you're not a subscriber then contact TNA to request a search costing £25
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Also once someone unlocks it by proving the death is it then unlocked for everyone?
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Also once someone unlocks it by proving the death is it then unlocked for everyone?
Yes
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Hi LizzieL
I know a death certificate doesn't include a persons NHS number but do you know if the certifying form issued by the Doctor does? and if so is it included on the form to the DHSS?
Andy
I'm sorry, I can't remember if the doctor's form included the NHS number. For my mother, I got the form from the hospital and then took it straight to the registrar who had an office on the same site. I hardly looked at it, except to check I'd been given the one for the right person. the registrar did ask if I had her NHS medical card, passport and driving licence. But as she died suddenly a long way from home, these would have been at her house. She had given up driving some time before and not been abroad for many years, so the latter two would have expired anyway.
It didn't seem important that I didn't have her medical card, as long as I sent the form they gave me back to the DHSS as soon as possible.
Added
many UK health authorities don't issue actual cards now - I haven't got one. When I moved house and registered with a new GP, I handed in my old one and when I hadn't received a new one, three months later, I queried it and was told they didn't issue them any more
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I have been looking at the entry for a woman who appears in the register with her first husband, who died in the war. She re-married in 1944 so her second married name also appears, which was helpful because her first name is partly obscured by the infamous sellotape marks. But then I remembered that she had married for a third time in 1958, but her third married name does not appear.
While National Registration was in force, until 1952, you were legally required to inform your local National Registration Office of any change of name, but once there was no legal compulsion to do this, I wonder how many women didn't notify a change of name? Probably not many, because there are plenty of post-1952 name changes in the register, but it's an interesting thought.
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There are obviously a ton of errors to be addressed.
Do people think this is an indexing issue or an (old) transcribing issue?
I'm still having trouble figuring out how my grandparents and presumably their children whom I can't see came to be listed under the (unrelated) next door neighbours' surname.
Sorry for the confusion. This has probably been addressed somewhere already.
It seems hard to justify such a high prevalence of fairly major errors.
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Can anyone figure out what (K) means after someone's name?
loo, I think the biggest 'error' is that they've pushed this over and over again as being all but complete and its obvious from talking to friends and reading comments on forums such as this that there are many, many missing people and addresses. I've asked FindMyPast about this and, until I get a reply, I shan't be spending any money on it.
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I've asked FindMyPast about this and, until I get a reply, I shan't be spending any money on it.
Don't hold your breath, it looks as if we are all getting a standard reply!
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I think that is how the cookie crumbles, you express your views and just get an automated response and no proper response by someone. At least if we give proof of death and the person is un redacted, then anyone else can see them.
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I've asked FindMyPast about this and, until I get a reply, I shan't be spending any money on it.
Don't hold your breath, it looks as if we are all getting a standard reply!
I have to be fair, I had a query about a missing section of a street. So I contacted them via "live chat". They checked the details I gave them, confimed that they replicated the problem and would get to it ASAP. Next day it was all fixed :)
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Might have to try that - what details did they ask for?
I know my grandparents exact address and who else would have been in the house. I also know the names of their neighbours who are also missing, would that be enough?
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Can anyone figure out what (K) means after someone's name?
Is it written in green ink? Could be initial of another first name.
I have one with a C which I think is start of second name Clement and another where Joyce is written in green after the names which is her second name.
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Might have to try that - what details did they ask for?
I know my grandparents exact address and who else would have been in the house. I also know the names of their neighbours who are also missing, would that be enough?
I was in the lucky position of having access to the 1939 electoral roll, so after searching in vain for mine, then also having no luck with immediate neighbours, I tried those a little further down the street. When these came good I copied down all those that were in that "item" and plotted their addresses (from the E.R.), then adjusted the "item" number up one and down one. One worked fine, but went the wrong direction. The other errored. I now had the full reference for the "item" (showing 40-50 people) that was missing. I did all the searches with this new bit of info and still errors.
When "chatting" to FindMyPast, I told them all the methods I'd tried (person search, address search and now item search, etc), which they then verified (in case I was making it up or was incompitent!! ::) ) and accepted they needed to do something.
I guess it's harder to fob someone off when they are hanging on the line (albeit a virtual one)
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I've analysed the three pages I have which are supposedly linked.
Problem 1) is that the name of the village or street is sometimes spelled (and therefore indexed) differently for people on the same page and same street.
2) The schedule numbers seem to skip - possibly because families under ~25 are in intervening households. This means, if there is a change of family you cannot tell. The enumerator(?) did not write the schedule number on each line - so a blank represented a ditto. Giving this sort of issue : did the section of redacted lines belong to my family or not?
3) The three images I could download had a missing file ie 7,9 & 10. I wondered where or why is 8 missing.
Point 1 leads me to believe that these were transcribed by OCR or by a group of contractors who did not understand how the documents were put together.
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Has government (or anyone) ever published a list of NHS Letter prefixes in relation to where they were registered. I am a FJNJ.
I asked the National Archives on Twitter. They say it's planned.
https://twitter.com/UkNatArchives/status/661948361529040904 (https://twitter.com/UkNatArchives/status/661948361529040904)
But then I found this. I don't know if it's the same thing... seems to be 3-letter rather than 4-letter codes.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/1939-register-enumeration-districts (http://www.findmypast.co.uk/articles/1939-register-enumeration-districts)
For my "YALA" reference... "ALA" in the above list is Islington. Is YALA a subdistrict of ALA?
Confirmation of the above from TNA.
"Y means it is a replacement card (the original was lost or stolen) & ALA is the area code (Islington)"
https://twitter.com/UkNatArchives/status/662313982326349824 (https://twitter.com/UkNatArchives/status/662313982326349824)
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Hi, Having been in the same boat as has many others, ie incorrect name of my father, and I presume the myself, sister and mother, I contacted FindMyPast to be informed that I could use the option in the R/H corner of the preview page 'update the record' in order to amend said name, but this only gives options to open/close records or enquire about living people, no amendment choice at all.
The other thing that I have found is information about events that happened much later is included, my mother remarried in 1956 after my fathers death 1953, her new married name is shown in the index with her maiden name shown as being that of my father, I asked FindMyPast about that and I have been told that this register has been with the NHS until 1991 until it relinquished it, and in their hands hundreds of thousands of names have been amended, and presumabley other info as well.
I have found that it is more fruitful to search the road/street, if you know it, that way the whole neighbourhood appears, but again it is not much help if the name is not as it should be.
I think FindMyPast are doing a disservice to their paying customers, not to include in their many blurbs about the '1939 Register', the fact that it also contains information that has been added in later years and that this could cause issues when researching it.
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I have just picked this snippet up from FindMyPast regarding transcription errors
On the transcription pages there is an error report button. If you're on the transcript preview can you please email the errors to support@findmypast.co.uk. Thanks
So you don't have to buy the record to be able to report mistranscription and would suggest adding the reference number from the free preview as well.
Thanks for this information. I appreciate that some hands are more difficult to read than others but we do know our families. When you see five members of one family listed and three have their surname spelt incorrectly in the transcriptions ie Smith becomes Simth or Sithm one does wonder what's going on :-\
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The other thing that I have found is information about events that happened much later is included, my mother remarried in 1956 after my fathers death 1953, her new married name is shown in the index with her maiden name shown as being that of my father
I think women are indexed by the last surname held in the register, with previous names (since 1939) in brackets. There is no mention of maiden name - although in many (most) cases that is what it will be. However, if someone was already married in 1939, there won't be any reference to their actual maiden name.
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Well Suey, I did just that only to get this reply:-
Thank you for your email
When you view the record, you will see an option ' Update The Record'
If you click on that, the option to report a transcription error is in there.
With kind regards,
Readydale, I expected the name to be as it appears on the register, not the supplementary info added years afterwards,for it to be included as it was at the time the register was compiled, if other family members are searching for this info and not aware of her remarriage, as many didn't.
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" this register has been with the NHS until 1991 until it relinquished it, and in their hands hundreds of thousands of names have been amended, and presumabley other info as well."
I wonder if we can find any of the people who worked for the NHS back in the 70's/80's to comment on how they did the updating etc
Would have been an interesting job for someone that likes that kind of thing
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I expected the name to be as it appears on the register, not the supplementary info added years afterwards,for it to be included as it was at the time the register was compiled, if other family members are searching for this info and not aware of her remarriage, as many didn't.
I have just rechecked my great aunt, who also has three surnames in the register and she shows up if you search on any one of those three. So regardless of whether you were aware of her remarriage or not, whe would still be findable.
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I expected the name to be as it appears on the register, not the supplementary info added years afterwards,for it to be included as it was at the time the register was compiled, if other family members are searching for this info and not aware of her remarriage, as many didn't.
I have just rechecked my great aunt, who also has three surnames in the register and she shows up if you search on any one of those three. So regardless of whether you were aware of her remarriage or not, whe would still be findable.
One of my aunts is not findable under her maiden name. They have her indexed under her full Christian name with her Christian name again in brackets and married surname. I cross checked using the folio and piece no. and found her husband and the rest of his family so I know I have the right lady :-\ Seems to be a matter of pot luck.
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PS
I don't have a subscription to Findmypast and don't want to keep paying for credits or take a subscription out. Is it possible to view these somewhere for free such as TNA, the library, or Society of Genealogists?
You can view for free at TNA. If you aren't going imminently, then see the bottom of my reply here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734467.msg5799121#msg5799121
Many thanks for confirming that they can be viewed at TNA. I'm planning to go there on Saturday and have quite a long list of people to check.
Matt
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I expected the name to be as it appears on the register, not the supplementary info added years afterwards,for it to be included as it was at the time the register was compiled, if other family members are searching for this info and not aware of her remarriage, as many didn't.
I have just rechecked my great aunt, who also has three surnames in the register and she shows up if you search on any one of those three. So regardless of whether you were aware of her remarriage or not, whe would still be findable.
One of my aunts is not findable under her maiden name. They have her indexed under her full Christian name with her Christian name again in brackets and married surname. I cross checked using the folio and piece no. and found her husband and the rest of his family so I know I have the right lady :-\ Seems to be a matter of pot luck.
If I understand you correctly, the index says:
FirstName (FirstName) MarriedSurname
If that is the case, then obviously it won't appear in a search on the maiden name, as it isn't in the database.
Have you purchased the actual image yet?
It could be that is exactly what the original record says, so is not FindMyPast's transcribing or indexing problem.
As has been highlighted a number of times in the various 1939 threads, this was a document containing many millions of names, updated for over 50 years, with interaction by many many people. There is more than enough oportunity for it to be imperfect, before even considering FindMyPast's work on it.
All things considered, it's in pretty good shape.
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PS
I don't have a subscription to Findmypast and don't want to keep paying for credits or take a subscription out. Is it possible to view these somewhere for free such as TNA, the library, or Society of Genealogists?
You can view for free at TNA. If you aren't going imminently, then see the bottom of my reply here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=734467.msg5799121#msg5799121
So, does this mean they haven't destroyed the originals yet?
I'm also trying to envision how they would let you look at one side of the page without seeing the other. I suppose there must be a way.
No the 1939 National Register is viewed on computers at the National Archives it is the same the one you see at home on your computer except you do not have to pay for access.
The paper register is kept at the GRO in Southport and is not open to the public.
Cheers
Guy
Thanks Guy. I'm planning to go to TNA on Saturday and with several people to look for or check it's good to know I can view them for free there. I also plan to take my grandmother's death certificate with me as I have not been able to find her. She died in 1992 so might be one of the 'closed records' but as her name changes several times in various records I haven't even been able to look for her in the index. The problem I have is that although I know when she died and have her death certificate, I don't know what name she would have been using when the register was taken. She was born Constance Gladys Rook (in 1919), but when she married my grandfather William John Donovan in 1937 she called herself Mary Constance Rook (and lied bout her age, father's name, and even claimed he was dead!), she is still down as Mary Constance on my uncle's birth certificate (from 1940) yet is down as Constance Gladys on my father's birth certificate (1944) and on a tree drawn up for me when I was born her name is down as Mary Constance Brook! In addition to this on some electoral registers for the 1940s and 50s her name varies between Mary and Constance. Any suggestions for this? However as I already have the Rook family traced back to the 17th century I am hoping the register will provide me with the information I need to trace my great grandmother Elizabeth Donovan (nee Sullivan).
Thanks again.
Matt
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No you can't view the original, they haven't been destroyed yet, you can access what FindMyPast has put online for free without the need to purchase credits.
No, you can't view the redacted entries online at TNA, they stay redacted.
You can only ask TNA to un-redact a closed entry of someone born after 1915 where you have a copy of thier death cert and their address at the time in 1939.
unredactions at TNA will cost £25 to process, free if you pay for credits for FindMyPast and then supply the death cert to FindMyPast.
Does this mean I have to pay TNA £25 to unredact the information on for my grandmother who was born in 1919 and died in 1992 (if I can locate where she is or what she was calling herself)? That seems a little harsh and unfair. If I apply through FindmyPast is it a longer process and is the cost different?
Matt
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I thought has just occurred to me about the 'open' and 'closed' records. From what I understand anyone who died after 1991 should be down as a 'closed record'. However my grandmother's file is open, even though she died in 2011. Could that just be a mistake on FindmyPast's part and my good luck?
Also can the register be searched via maiden names for women who may have married?
Matt
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Hi MattD30
From what I understand only un-redacted records will be accessable at The National Archives. If you wish to open redacted records you need to apply using the form on link below, and it will cost 25 GBP
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/PaidSearch/FOI1939Register (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/PaidSearch/FOI1939Register)
If you purchase credits from Findmypast, open a household and wish to un-redact a person then how you go about it depends upon whether you have a subscription or not. If you have a World or Britain subscription (annual subscription according to TNA but not so clear on FindMyPast) then you can apply through Findmypast at no additional cost but if you dont have a qualifying subscription then you apply to TNA at a cost of 25 GBP.
Andy
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Incredibly unhelpful reply from FindMyPast re my report of a missing stretch of Caithness Drive in Crosby:
"Thank you for your interest in the 1939 register.
If you are searching for a particular street and are unable to find it you may need to be flexible in the search terms that you use.
However please note that the street may not have been taken in order, for example odd numbers may have been taken first as the enumerator moved up on side of the street.
Please do not hesitate to contact us if you require any further assistance
Explore your world on the #eveofwar"
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have you tried posting your query on their facebook page?
or have you tried having a 'live chat' with them about it?
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I've seen the same questions being asked here over and over, this blog answers many of them
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/watch-1436591498.html
interesting reply about how the transcriptions were made, being able to see only one column when you are not familiar with the enumerators handwriting could answer why there are a lot of question marks in the transcriptions
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Many thanks for confirming that they can be viewed at TNA. I'm planning to go there on Saturday and have quite a long list of people to check.
If I remember when one of the recent census was released TNA were allocating hourly time slots for viewing which were booked on arrival due to the numbers of people wanting to view the information. :-\
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Since then, they have hugely increased the number of screens, by removing a lot of the cabinets which were used to house their collection of microfilms.
Maybe MattD30 can report back after his visit at the weekend?
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Just had a totally unhelpful reply from FindMyPast to my query about missing people and addresses.
'There are a number of potential reasons for people not showing up on a first search of the Register:
• If the person was born less than 100 years ago, they are deemed to still be alive unless proven otherwise so the record is closed.
• Transcription errors – Findmypast have committed to an accuracy level of 98.5% across the whole dataset but with an index that links to a database containing details of millions of individuals it is inevitable that some errors will occur .
• Names listed differently than anticipated. As with many large databases you may need to be flexible and even creative with your searching. You may need to carry out your search a number of times but vary the information slightly, or try using surname only to find the correct family. To narrow down your search you may wish to carry out an address search.
• Individuals listed in a different location to family groups. On 29th September 1939 mass evacuation of the population had already occurred so the records of many individuals in particular may be listed in an entirely different location to the rest of the family group. You may need to review names and dates of birth of individuals in areas where individuals were evacuated to in order to find the correct record.
Very polite but smacks of a standard reply technique to me. I find it mildly insulting that, although I've been searching for these missing people all week, the reason I'm not finding them is because I'm not doing it right! ( 'first search' indeed!! I must have tried about 10 times a day) ::) ::)
Until FindMyPast admit that, contrary to their publicity blurb, everyone living in England and Wales in 1939 was NOT included on this register and that they need to look into where these missng people's details were kept as and when they were issued with ID cards etc, we're not going to make any further progress.
This is so typical of FindMyPast - when they issued the Yorkshire parish registers, I tried to point out that they had misindexed a whole Beverley parish. I found it by accident and wanted it put right so others could also find the correct records, but it took a few emails before FindMyPast would put right their mistake.
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Incredibly unhelpful reply from FindMyPast re my report of a missing stretch of Caithness Drive in Crosby:
"Thank you for your interest in the 1939 register.
If you are searching for a particular street and are unable to find it you may need to be flexible in the search terms that you use.
However please note that the street may not have been taken in order, for example odd numbers may have been taken first as the enumerator moved up on side of the street.
Please do not hesitate to contact us if you require any further assistance
Explore your world on the #eveofwar"
My reply to my query was equally unhelpful ! in fact it seems as if they didn't READ my query at all! as their reply was basically my query ! I had purchased the 5 household package managed to view 2 but then on attempting to view a third got asked to pay for more credits! !! Will have to reply Monday to them as am busy this weekend
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Until FindMyPast admit that, contrary to their publicity blurb, everyone living in England and Wales in 1939 was NOT included on this register and that they need to look into where these missng people's details were kept as and when they were issued with ID cards etc, we're not going to make any further progress.
This is so typical of FindMyPast - when they issued the Yorkshire parish registers, I tried to point out that they had misindexed a whole Beverley parish. I found it by accident and wanted it put right so others could also find the correct records, but it took a few emails before FindMyPast would put right their mistake.
This link which someone posted earlier has some interesting information about not finding the person you are looking for
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/ (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/)
Andy
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Until FindMyPast admit that, contrary to their publicity blurb, everyone living in England and Wales in 1939 was NOT included on this register and that they need to look into where these missng people's details were kept as and when they were issued with ID cards etc, we're not going to make any further progress.
It is quite a big jump from not being able to find them to saying not everyone was included in the register. As they needed to be on the register for ID cards and rationing purposes, I would say it's extremely likely that most people we currently cannot find are indeed in there somewhere. Probably a lot less people are ACTUALLY missing than in, say, the census.
In defence of FindMyPast, they don't know you, they don't know how thorough you are with your searching. I'm sure there are people out there who, if something isn't EXACTLY where they expect to find it, swear it is missing (I am not for one moment saying that is you), and the job of that e-mail is to "encourage" people to think outside the box.
However, I'm equally sure there are many, many instances of people being missing from FMPs indexes of the register or mistranscribed. With something of this size, I suppose is almost inevitable.It happens on all similar releases (Anc's Electoral Rolls for London were - still are - a nightmare). What makes this harder is that we cannot currently see everything. So when we say to FindMyPast "something is missing", it is so easy for them to reply that it is just us looking in the wrong place
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I expected the name to be as it appears on the register, not the supplementary info added years afterwards,for it to be included as it was at the time the register was compiled, if other family members are searching for this info and not aware of her remarriage, as many didn't.
I have just rechecked my great aunt, who also has three surnames in the register and she shows up if you search on any one of those three. So regardless of whether you were aware of her remarriage or not, whe would still be findable.
One of my aunts is not findable under her maiden name. They have her indexed under her full Christian name with her Christian name again in brackets and married surname. I cross checked using the folio and piece no. and found her husband and the rest of his family so I know I have the right lady :-\ Seems to be a matter of pot luck.
If I understand you correctly, the index says:
FirstName (FirstName) MarriedSurname
If that is the case, then obviously it won't appear in a search on the maiden name, as it isn't in the database.
Have you purchased the actual image yet?
It could be that is exactly what the original record says, so is not FindMyPast's transcribing or indexing problem.
As has been highlighted a number of times in the various 1939 threads, this was a document containing many millions of names, updated for over 50 years, with interaction by many many people. There is more than enough oportunity for it to be imperfect, before even considering FindMyPast's work on it.
All things considered, it's in pretty good shape.
This is not a simple as it seems.
Take for instance my mother :
Maiden surname GUY (1915-1938) : 1st Married surname GITTINS (1938-1946) : 2nd Married surname ETCHELLS (1946-2004 marriage in Scotland).
The 1939 National Register indexes her under her first, name, initial and 2nd married name with her first married name in brackets, i.e. Anita E. Etchells (Gittins), her maiden surname does not appear in the index.
One good thing is even marriages which have taken place in Scotland are noted on the register.
One disadvantage of redactions is the name of the road she was living on at the time is redacted as it appears once on the image under a redacted entry.
I am not sure if this will prevent searching by address though suspect it will
Cheers
Guy
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This link which someone posted earlier has some interesting information about not finding the person you are looking for
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/ (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/)
Andy
Sadly that link is coming up as 'page not found' Andy?
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This link which someone posted earlier has some interesting information about not finding the person you are looking for
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/ (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/)
Andy
Sadly that link is coming up as 'page not found' Andy?
Same here, Andy.
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Hi All
I'm sitting in The National Archives right now; I used the free FindMyPast search at home to locate relatives, then re-found them here. I asked and you can take photos of the screens for free.
I've got time to look up and photograph five more searches so first come, first served! I need names, dobs and districts as they appear in the free searches.
I asked regarding the letter/number annotations; some are a complete mystery at the moment. They are trying to find out what some of them mean, but as you can appreciate they have been added to the register over decades by numerous staff.
KR
Gaie
FIRST COME FIRST SERVED
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Until FindMyPast admit that, contrary to their publicity blurb, everyone living in England and Wales in 1939 was NOT included on this register and that they need to look into where these missng people's details were kept as and when they were issued with ID cards etc, we're not going to make any further progress.
It is quite a big jump from not being able to find them to saying not everyone was included in the register. As they needed to be on the register for ID cards and rationing purposes, I would say it's extremely likely that most people we currently cannot find are indeed in there somewhere. Probably a lot less people are ACTUALLY missing than in, say, the census.
In defence of FindMyPast, they don't know you, they don't know how thorough you are with your searching. I'm sure there are people out there who, if something isn't EXACTLY where they expect to find it, swear it is missing (I am not for one moment saying that is you), and the job of that e-mail is to "encourage" people to think outside the box.
However, I'm equally sure there are many, many instances of people being missing from FMPs indexes of the register or mistranscribed. With something of this size, I suppose is almost inevitable.It happens on all similar releases (Anc's Electoral Rolls for London were - still are - a nightmare). What makes this harder is that we cannot currently see everything. So when we say to FindMyPast "something is missing", it is so easy for them to reply that it is just us looking in the wrong place
You're obviously a much nicer, more forgiving person than I am, ReadyDale. ;) If it was just an odd person here and there that I couldn't find, I might be convinced. However, both sets of grandparents are not be found and neither are the addresses where I'd expect to find them. I searched for my grandmothers separately in case my grandfathers had gone off to fight (despite their ages and that they'd already fought the Hun in 1914-18) but still no sign of any of them. Then, thinks I, perhaps one of them is with her other family - look for older sister, nothing. Look for in laws - nothing!!
You can see why I'm not very happy with FindMyPast? I'm not saying I'm brilliant at these searches - far from it - but I have been doing this well over 10 years now and I do know about mistranscriptions but not to find any of the above is rather a coincidence. The main names (Russell and Gibson) are not that easy to mistranscribe, though I did find a great uncle and aunt transcribed as James & Emily Rumble, which I quite fancied and considered changing my name by deedpoll. ;D One name I've been looking for - Stubbs - is notorious for outlandish mistranscriptions, but, amazingly, seems intact in the 1939 Register!!
As you can tell, I'm starting to go ever so slightly bananas over this....
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This is not a simple as it seems.
Take for instance my mother :
Maiden surname GUY (1915-1938) : 1st Married surname GITTINS (1938-1946) : 2nd Married surname ETCHELLS (1946-2004 marriage in Scotland).
The 1939 National Register indexes her under her first, name, initial and 2nd married name with her first married name in brackets, i.e. Anita E. Etchells (Gittins), her maiden surname does not appear in the index.
One good thing is even marriages which have taken place in Scotland are noted on the register.
One disadvantage of redactions is the name of the road she was living on at the time is redacted as it appears once on the image under a redacted entry.
I am not sure if this will prevent searching by address though suspect it will
Cheers
Guy
In the example you quote (which I think is similar to the circumstances I was responding to), I would not expect her maiden name ("Guy" in your scenario), as she had already stopped being "Guy" prior to the Register being created. It is afterall a working document the we happen to find useful, not a genealogy-specific database.
Your other point regarding an address being hidden from searches because it's only occurance on the sheet is redacted, is more of a problem (if that is indeed the case) and would solely be down to how the redaction was done. Personally, I cannot see how knowing a house existed, but only contained x number of people who were all born after 1915 and died after 1991, would breach anyone's privacy ???
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Assume there's a regular process that runs over the database that auto-opens closed records when the person reaches 100 years old ... guess I'll wait until May 2019
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You're obviously a much nicer, more forgiving person than I am, ReadyDale. ;)
Aw shucks! :)
If it was just an odd person here and there that I couldn't find, I might be convinced. However, both sets of grandparents are not be found and neither are the addresses where I'd expect to find them. I searched for my grandmothers separately in case my grandfathers had gone off to fight (despite their ages and that they'd already fought the Hun in 1914-18) but still no sign of any of them. Then, thinks I, perhaps one of them is with her other family - look for older sister, nothing. Look for in laws - nothing!!
You can see why I'm not very happy with FindMyPast? I'm not saying I'm brilliant at these searches - far from it - but I have been doing this well over 10 years now and I do know about mistranscriptions but not to find any of the above is rather a coincidence. The main names (Russell and Gibson) are not that easy to mistranscribe, though I did find a great uncle and aunt transcribed as James & Emily Rumble, which I quite fancied and considered changing my name by deedpoll. ;D One name I've been looking for - Stubbs - is notorious for outlandish mistranscriptions, but, amazingly, seems intact in the 1939 Register!!
As you can tell, I'm starting to go ever so slightly bananas over this....
But that is my point. The problem is not with FindMyPast's claimed that the register includes everyone around at the time (excluding those already off fighting - which they openly said). More an issue with FindMyPast's indexing and/or transcribing.
I have related this story on 1939 thread earlier, but I had EXACTLY the same scenario as you - people missing using all the search techniques learnt over the years, plus the various tips from Dawn's thread for this. Nothing. Like you, I tried looking for other family they might be with. Also missing. I had the luxury of having access to the electoral rolls for the relevent area/period and went through their neighbours one-by-one up the street until I found one (yes, I know, I should get out more ;D), then looked for adjacent pieces and found the offending one and (despite knowing EXACTLY the reference for what I needed, it still wasn't coming up. So I did Live Chat with FindMyPast, telling them specifically what was not showing and what I'd tried. They tried the same (just to make sure I wasn't stupid), admitted they were missing from the index (not from the register) and passed it to their techie team and low-and-behold, less than 24 hours later they appeared (with exactly they names, DoBs, addresses, and piece reference numbers I had predicted)
As they used to say on the X-Files - "The truth is out there!" :)
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I had the luxury of having access to the electoral rolls for the relevent area/period and went through their neighbours one-by-one up the street until I found one
In my case I have the neighbours names from a 1938 Directory. All 10 households on that stretch of road are missing from FindMyPast's 1939 Register.
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Not sure if this has been asked.
Looking at the free index part of the 1939 for an uncle, it says there are 3 people in the house plus 2 closed. When I unlocked it, there were only 3 people, all open - my uncle, his wife and her mother. However, and this is the question, her mother has been crossed out in red and in the first column the words "See page 15" have been added. This is also written in red in the last column. Any one know why this could be, or if it is possible to see page 15?
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I had the luxury of having access to the electoral rolls for the relevent area/period and went through their neighbours one-by-one up the street until I found one
In my case I have the neighbours names from a 1938 Directory. All 10 households on that stretch of road are missing from FindMyPast's 1939 Register.
If you can find the nearest neighbour that does appear in the register, take the reference (the second and third parts are the important ones) and try searching with the reference as the only criteria, adjusting the third part up one and/or down one. Probably one will error. Likely that page is lost in the ether of FMPs database. Live Chat them and tell them and it could well appear quite quickly :)
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... if it is possible to see page 15?
I've had one of these. is there a white arrow on the right (or left) of the screen to allow you to move to the next page image?
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How do I find the live chat link? The contact page says "Live Chat: chat online in real time to our Customer Support team by selecting the Chat option at the bottom of this page" - but the option isn't there.
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... if it is possible to see page 15?
I've had one of these. is there a white arrow on the right (or left) of the screen to allow you to move to the next page image?
Yes, but that just takes me to the next page and no further. I can't see any page numbers either.
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How do I find the live chat link? The contact page says "Live Chat: chat online in real time to our Customer Support team by selecting the Chat option at the bottom of this page" - but the option isn't there.
Hmmmm!!! That's a really good question! They seem to have removed it, as I cannot see it where it was before. Probably worked toooooo well! ::)
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... if it is possible to see page 15?
I've had one of these. is there a white arrow on the right (or left) of the screen to allow you to move to the next page image?
Yes, but that just takes me to the next page and no further. I can't see any page numbers either.
And I take it there is no reference to the same person on that page?
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No, no reference. When I searched for her by name, the original entry came up ie the one where she was with her daughter and son in law. She was widowed, and lived with them until her death in the 1960s, so I presume that was her permanent address.
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Hi MattD30
From what I understand only un-redacted records will be accessable at The National Archives. If you wish to open redacted records you need to apply using the form on link below, and it will cost 25 GBP
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/PaidSearch/FOI1939Register (http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/PaidSearch/FOI1939Register)
If you purchase credits from Findmypast, open a household and wish to un-redact a person then how you go about it depends upon whether you have a subscription or not. If you have a World or Britain subscription (annual subscription according to TNA but not so clear on FindMyPast) then you can apply through Findmypast at no additional cost but if you dont have a qualifying subscription then you apply to TNA at a cost of 25 GBP.
Andy
Hi Andy
Thanks for the reply. I personally think it is wrong to charge someone to see a file relating to a close relative when it is possible to prove that the person is deceased. To me £25 seems to be an excessively high price, especially if we have to buy a subscription to the website as well. It is just thankful that I already know a great deal about my grandmother so don't necessarily need to see her entry (yet). I think it would make more sense though if closed entries were included in the index and marked 'closed' there. This way you might see a reference to 'John H Smith - closed'. You wouldn't be able to view the entry, but at least you would know what part of the country a person was in and therefore be able to decide if it was your relative. You could then pay the fee to view the entire entry, whereas at the moment if there are several people with the same name you don't see them in the list so you don't know if a closed record which you want opened actually is the person you are looking for. In short you could open different closed records (at £25 a go) but then find they don't relate to you or the person you are after. A huge amount of money down the drain. :-( :-(
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Its only £25 if you don't have an annual subscription, as Andy said. If you already have an annual subscription then you apply to FindMyPast directly and they wave the fee. You don't have to purchase a subscription and pay the £25.
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Hi Andy
Thanks for the reply. I personally think it is wrong to charge someone to see a file relating to a close relative when it is possible to prove that the person is deceased. To me £25 seems to be an excessively high price, especially if we have to buy a subscription to the website as well. It is just thankful that I already know a great deal about my grandmother so don't necessarily need to see her entry (yet). I think it would make more sense though if closed entries were included in the index and marked 'closed' there. This way you might see a reference to 'John H Smith - closed'. You wouldn't be able to view the entry, but at least you would know what part of the country a person was in and therefore be able to decide if it was your relative. You could then pay the fee to view the entire entry, whereas at the moment if there are several people with the same name you don't see them in the list so you don't know if a closed record which you want opened actually is the person you are looking for. In short you could open different closed records (at £25 a go) but then find they don't relate to you or the person you are after. A huge amount of money down the drain. :-( :-(
MattD30 the £25 is levied by the National Archives due to successive government’s demands that they cover their costs otherwise the cost has to be paid by the taxpayer.
That is the amount that they have worked out on average it costs them to undertake the work involved in finding the entry, checking and removing the redaction.
The cost has nothing to do with Findmypast.
If you want to blame anyone the blame falls squarely with Tony Blair’s Labour government who brought in the Data Protection Act (the Act that requires the information to be redacted).
It makes no difference whether the person is a close relation or a complete strangers the DPA requires the information is kept from the general public’s view until the subject is deceased.
Unfortunately even the subject’s name is considered personal information as the subject may be identified by it.
Cheers
Guy
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Its only £25 if you don't have an annual subscription, as Andy said. If you already have an annual subscription then you apply to FindMyPast directly and they wave the fee. You don't have to purchase a subscription and pay the £25.
Hiya
Yes that may be true however not everyone has an annual subscription which is my point. I cannot afford an annual subscription and can't afford to pay £25 for each of the entries I need to see. In cases where a person is known to be dead it is my view that it is wrong to charge to see that info. In particular I think it is wrong to charge close relatives to do this especially if they can prove the person is dead. Surely if the register can be viewed for free at TNA then if people can provide evidence that a person is dead there should be a way for TNA to unredact the entry (or get it done by FindmyPast) rather than making the person pay for it. I strongly believe that this excessive fee is highly unfair to people, and believe it should not be charged if evidence is provided of a persons death.
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Yes that may be true however not everyone has an annual subscription which is my point. I cannot afford an annual subscription and can't afford to pay £25 for each of the entries I need to see.
Yes but that's not what you said, hence my reply. ;D
To me £25 seems to be an excessively high price, especially if we have to buy a subscription to the website as well.
You appear to say that you had to purchase a subscription as well as pay a fee.
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Its only £25 if you don't have an annual subscription, as Andy said. If you already have an annual subscription then you apply to FindMyPast directly and they wave the fee. You don't have to purchase a subscription and pay the £25.
Hiya
Yes that may be true however not everyone has an annual subscription which is my point. I cannot afford an annual subscription and can't afford to pay £25 for each of the entries I need to see. In cases where a person is known to be dead it is my view that it is wrong to charge to see that info. In particular I think it is wrong to charge close relatives to do this especially if they can prove the person is dead. Surely if the register can be viewed for free at TNA then if people can provide evidence that a person is dead there should be a way for TNA to unredact the entry (or get it done by FindmyPast) rather than making the person pay for it. I strongly believe that this excessive fee is highly unfair to people, and believe it should not be charged if evidence is provided of a persons death.
In that case write or email your MP and ask him/her to get the law changed that requires the National Archives to raise the charge.
If enough people do so the law will be changed and the chrge removed until then the charge will stay.
Cheers
Guy
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I think what you have to remember is that up until now you were able to view the records but it cost a lot more than £25, we would still be paying this if FindMyPast hadn't taken on the job of scanning them. At least now, using all the tips given here and on other threads, we can get a good idea of where people were in 1939 without paying anything. On the records that I have unlocked I've found it very easy to work out who the closed entries must be rather than having them opened. If there are a lot of records that people need to see perhaps they need to work out whether it would in fact be cheaper to take out a sub to FindMyPast.
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Hi Andy
Thanks for the reply. I personally think it is wrong to charge someone to see a file relating to a close relative when it is possible to prove that the person is deceased. To me £25 seems to be an excessively high price, especially if we have to buy a subscription to the website as well. It is just thankful that I already know a great deal about my grandmother so don't necessarily need to see her entry (yet). I think it would make more sense though if closed entries were included in the index and marked 'closed' there. This way you might see a reference to 'John H Smith - closed'. You wouldn't be able to view the entry, but at least you would know what part of the country a person was in and therefore be able to decide if it was your relative. You could then pay the fee to view the entire entry, whereas at the moment if there are several people with the same name you don't see them in the list so you don't know if a closed record which you want opened actually is the person you are looking for. In short you could open different closed records (at £25 a go) but then find they don't relate to you or the person you are after. A huge amount of money down the drain. :-( :-(
MattD30 the £25 is levied by the National Archives due to successive government’s demands that they cover their costs otherwise the cost has to be paid by the taxpayer.
That is the amount that they have worked out on average it costs them to undertake the work involved in finding the entry, checking and removing the redaction.
The cost has nothing to do with Findmypast.
If you want to blame anyone the blame falls squarely with Tony Blair’s Labour government who brought in the Data Protection Act (the Act that requires the information to be redacted).
It makes no difference whether the person is a close relation or a complete strangers the DPA requires the information is kept from the general public’s view until the subject is deceased.
Unfortunately even the subject’s name is considered personal information as the subject may be identified by it.
Cheers
Guy
Hi Guy
It may be entirely true that the £25 fee is set by TNA and not by FindmyPast, but it is still an excessive amount. I see no acceptable reason to have to pay £25 to view information relating to my own grandmother (or other relatives) when I know she is dead and have the evidence (ie her death certificate). There are several people in my tree whom I have found in the register with other people in the house who are marked as 'closed' and obviously I don't need to see them all, but when it comes to close or immediate family it seems rather harsh to impose that fee on people. I can certainly understand the need to keep the identities of people confidential but I repeat what I have previously stated, if I am looking for a John Smith and don't know where he is on that date, how can I identify him if his record is closed? Why on earth should I pay £25 to see each entry, do they refund you if the entry is wrong? There must be some method to help researchers identify which 'closed' entry is the person they are looking for. Yes protect people's identity (in the case of people who are alive) but if a person is dead and there is evidence of this then £25 is in my view an unacceptably excessive amount to charge someone (especially if that person also has to buy a copy of the person's death certificate to prove the death). I don't think there should be no charge to get the file opened but where evidence is provided of the death the fee should not be this high. After all in my case my grandmother has been dead for 13 years and at the moment I have no idea where she was living on the night the register was taken or what name she was using, therefore I see no reason to pay £25 to view each entry which could be her. As I mentioned above there needs to be a way of narrowing down the number of 'closed' entries to allow you to pinpoint which is yours and then you only need to pay one fee. On the flip side of this my materal grandmother is on the register and her entry is open, even though she died post 2000! How can the details of someone who died in 1992 be classed as closed and someone who died in 2012 have their file classed as 'open'.
To me the whole matter is very confusing. If you don't know where someone was living when the register was taken but have evidence they are dead then you are going to end up paying £25 for each possible candidate. On top of that where is the money going, what exactly is the £25 used for? If it's just administration then it is an unacceptable amount in my view.
Am I not allowed to know where my grandmother was on that date, or what name she was using? That is how this appears and it is highly unfair in my view.
Anyhow enough moaning from me, after all this is not the fault of Rootschat or any Rootschat users and there's no point us all arguing about these matters. I am going to TNA tomorrow and will insist on getting some clarity on this matter and see if they can help provide a way to identify the correct 'closed' entry, after all if they want us to pay to have a file opened then we should have a way to identify the correct entry and therefore only pay once.
Matt
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How accurate would the date of birth on the register be? I have found the entry which I believe relates to my great grandmother Elizabeth Donovan (nee Sullivan) and yet the year of birth on the file does not match that from other sources (marriage certificate, death certificate, 1911 census - all of which give a varying year). I am hoping to use the date of her birth from the register to trace her birth.
Thanks
Matt
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How accurate would the date of birth on the register be?
Presumably only as good as the person filling in the form knew. At least it should be more accurate than the census when just an age was asked for, rather than an actual date.
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I have a few where the DOB is a year or 2 out, it was still a time where many did not know their exact age, I do find they tended to know the day and month.
I have found a few spouses that I was not aware of for ancestor siblings.
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Hi Andy
Thanks for the reply. I personally think it is wrong to charge someone to see a file relating to a close relative when it is possible to prove that the person is deceased. To me £25 seems to be an excessively high price, especially if we have to buy a subscription to the website as well. It is just thankful that I already know a great deal about my grandmother so don't necessarily need to see her entry (yet). I think it would make more sense though if closed entries were included in the index and marked 'closed' there. This way you might see a reference to 'John H Smith - closed'. You wouldn't be able to view the entry, but at least you would know what part of the country a person was in and therefore be able to decide if it was your relative. You could then pay the fee to view the entire entry, whereas at the moment if there are several people with the same name you don't see them in the list so you don't know if a closed record which you want opened actually is the person you are looking for. In short you could open different closed records (at £25 a go) but then find they don't relate to you or the person you are after. A huge amount of money down the drain. :-( :-(
The request to see the information on a closed person is a FOI request and your request needs to be verified. You could ask at TNA how that is done, and who does it, but there would be some time involved in verifying that the persons information can be released.
Andy
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This link which someone posted earlier has some interesting information about not finding the person you are looking for
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/ (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/1939-register/)
Andy
Sadly that link is coming up as 'page not found' Andy?
I'm not sure why it didn't come up, it does for me. If you still can't access it try this
From Home Page http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ (http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/) select Find Guides box
the enter 1939 register in Search Box and then select the Guide
Andy
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Am I going senile? Searched the index, clicked on name got the preview, where has the folio and piece number gone ? ???
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Am I going senile? Searched the index, clicked on name got the preview, where has the folio and piece number gone ? ???
I've just noticed that too! They must have rumbled us and removed it. If you refresh the page it very briefly appears then disappears. If you hover on the "unlock this household" it appears at the bottom left on my screen (Win 8.1 laptop) but it disappears when I try to copy it. The only option it seems is to write the reference down >:(
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Hi
This article on the Findmypast website is interesting particularly the information on transcribing.
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/watch-1436591498.html (https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/watch-1436591498.html)
Andy
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Am I going senile? Searched the index, clicked on name got the preview, where has the folio and piece number gone ? ???
I've just noticed that too! They must have rumbled us and removed it. If you refresh the page it very briefly appears then disappears. If you hover on the "unlock this household" it appears at the bottom left on my screen (Win 8.1 laptop) but it disappears when I try to copy it. The only option it seems is to write the reference down >:(
Doesn't work for me :( When you say "rumbled us" all I'm doing is checking to see if I might have the right bally family before shelling out cash! I don't see that there is anything for FindMyPast to find underhand or dishonest about it! First rule of family history is make a note of your source - how can you do that without the ruddy reference numbers.
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I have e mailed them - will await reply......zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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I wonder if they have made a decision to only reveal the source reference numbers if we pay for the record.
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How accurate would the date of birth on the register be? I have found the entry which I believe relates to my great grandmother Elizabeth Donovan (nee Sullivan) and yet the year of birth on the file does not match that from other sources (marriage certificate, death certificate, 1911 census - all of which give a varying year). I am hoping to use the date of her birth from the register to trace her birth.
I've one set of 3 sisters in their 50s who have subtracted 3-8 years from their ages. This was the well-off educated side of the family, I'm quite sure they knew their exact ages!
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I have an uncle who was born in 1933 (died 1978) his DOB is written incorrectly as 1936.
My gran knew that she had a 6 year old when war started,and not a 3 year old!
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Not found anything really useful yet, but have found a Catherine as Bathermine, a William E as Lillian C, a Ceinwen as Beinwen, and a Huw M as Ann M (all confirmed as the right people by known date of birth). ::)
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I wonder if they have made a decision to only reveal the source reference numbers if we pay for the record.
My thoughts exactly! At least with the reference you could check for spouse or child, if known and therefore not waste money on unlocking a wrong image.
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As noted on the other thread - the reference is still available via the URL ;D
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As noted on the other thread - the reference is still available via the URL ;D
If you refresh the page it very briefly appears then disappears. If you hover on the "unlock this household" it appears at the bottom left on my screen (Win 8.1 laptop) but it disappears when I try to copy it. The only option it seems is to write the reference down >:(
Could not work out which numbers last night among all the other symbols, but yes, thank you that does seem to work.
I will be interesting to see what FindMyPast's reply to my question is as to why they've taken it off though :-\
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I will be interesting to see what FindMyPast's reply to my question is as to why they've taken it off though :-\
I doubt they'll say " we have realised that we just won't earn enough money if none of you pay £6-95 to see your families" ;D ;D ;D
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You need these 2 bits of info from the browser bar (if it's visible, ie it's not on my ipad).....
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=tna%2fr39%2f7356%2f7356e%2f002%2f04
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I'm glad I got what I needed before they removed the reference, as I would never have found my great great grandfather. His first name was listed as '~????' when it clearly read 'Wm. Jn.' on the image. Using the ref was the only way I could be sure I had the right record before using my credits.
Anyone would have thought they want us to make mistakes and use more credits!
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Am I going senile? Searched the index, clicked on name got the preview, where has the folio and piece number gone ? ???
I've just noticed that too! They must have rumbled us and removed it. If you refresh the page it very briefly appears then disappears. If you hover on the "unlock this household" it appears at the bottom left on my screen (Win 8.1 laptop) but it disappears when I try to copy it. The only option it seems is to write the reference down >:(
[/quote]
Yes the ref has gone from the preview screen.... however as said above if you hover over 'Unlock this record" on Preview screen, or over 'Preview' on search list the info appears in bottom left hand corner, using a desk top with widows 7, see the attached the TNA ref for this example is 1959f / 018.
cheers John
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Has something else changing as you can now get this on basic search result for a household:
Marjorie J Fisk (Hazlewood) 1
Frederick W Hazlewood and 2 more people are on this record
It didn't used to give another name on the searches I have been doing.
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I'm glad I got what I needed before they removed the reference, as I would never have found my great great grandfather. His first name was listed as '~????' when it clearly read 'Wm. Jn.' on the image. Using the ref was the only way I could be sure I had the right record before using my credits.
Anyone would have thought they want us to make mistakes and use more credits!
Ooooo girlywhirl, anyone would think you were being cynical :P ;D ;D
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I am glad the site has coped with the overload of people searching, seems they know how to handle that now. I have found out many DOB's of ancestor siblings, even if I have to search by month, then day, I always quickly note down the quarter their birth was registered. Saves me buying more certs.
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Has something else changing as you can now get this on basic search result for a household:
Marjorie J Fisk (Hazlewood) 1
Frederick W Hazlewood and 2 more people are on this record
It didn't used to give another name on the searches I have been doing.
I'm not getting another name ???
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Has something else changing as you can now get this on basic search result for a household:
Marjorie J Fisk (Hazlewood) 1
Frederick W Hazlewood and 2 more people are on this record
It didn't used to give another name on the searches I have been doing.
I'm not getting another name ???
I'm not getting another name either, just the number of other people in the household. Also the full RG101/etc reference is still showing. Nothing's changed on the Australian site as far as I can see ???
Carol
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If you have access to facebook, check the visitors posts there.
Lots of comments about the numbers going, but FindMyPast say they are working on it.
Also posts about more than 1 name showing with internet explorer. I've checked and still only one name with internet explorer and firefox.
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I wonder if it depends on whether you logged in yesterday evening or today, as opposed to staying logged in all the time, or aren't logged in as you don't need to be in order to search on the data set? I normally use IE11 and have been logged in all week and the preview is only showing one name and the ref. I logged in on Firefox and it shows more than one name but no ref. :-\
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Safari only showing the one name too, on iPad. No reference numbers.
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I have a question about the piece, item and individual numbers recorded for entries on the Register.
I've been looking at the household of Brian Redshaw in Hoddesdon R.D.
When FindMyPast were still including the identification numbers under the household information on the results page I noted the numbers for Brian Redshaw as 1616A/006/15. However the url for his entry is this:
http://search.findmypast.co.uk/record/locked?id=tna%2fr39%2f1616%2f1616a%2f05%2f15
The piece number and individual numbers are the same - 1616A and 15, but the page number is 05 in the url not 006 as I originally noted. If I do a search on 1616A 05 with no other fields completed I get a list of 34 records but no Brian Redshaw. He still appears as part of 1616A 006.
Has this happened to anyone else? Can anyone explain what might have happened?
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Hi MerryM
Brian Redshaw appears on 1616a 005 on page 2 the entry with just dashes for name (under the Paddick entry). Clicking on the preview shows Brian Redshaw as also living there.
Selina
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Thanks Selina.
If I search page 1616A 05, look at page 2 and click the Preview on the blank entry under the Paddick entry the details for the Redshaw household show:
---- ---- ---- (the untranscribed person I clicked on)
2 more people on this record
1 more person who is officially closed
So how did you get his name to come up?
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I seem to be one of the people who are getting a second name on an entry but not the reference number, so he came when I clicked on the preview for the dash entry.
Selina
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Lucky you!
If you put his name in the Other Household Member boxes on the search form can you get the names of the other people in the household? It doesn't work for me, but then I can't see his name!!
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Sorry all I can get is Joyce A. Pavitt (Redshaw) which I expect you have already found.
However as Brain is no. 15 and Joyce no. 16 if you look at the previews of everyone else on the two pages then nos. 13, 14, 17 or 18 may ring a bell (one number would be the closed person so need to allow two either side, if that makes sense) and match with number of people in household.
Selina
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As Brian is individual 17 (ie the blank person for me!) I thought I'd look to see who persons 15, 16, 18 and 19 are (if they were not closed, obviously). I started at the end of page 2 but when I got to Janet E Weatherley (Gordner) I discovered she was individual 17 too. I then discovered those I've looked at so far other than Brian (maybe 10 records) are all item number 04 not 05 though 05 was my search criteria.
*sigh*
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Selina - That's interesting that you say Brian is number 15 (which is the number I have for him in 006) but in 005 I have him as 17 (the blank entry underneath Paddick).
I'm getting a headache! lol
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Actually I don't think Brian is the blank person as I get the dashes plus his name, so if blank person is no. 17 (which I didn't think to note!) then it must be Janet E. Weatherley (Gordner) who is the blank person and the other occupant of the house.
Selina
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If I search 1616A 004 the entries I get as results are at least partly 003 (I've not looked at them all)!!
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Actually I don't think Brian is the blank person as I get the dashes plus his name, so if blank person is no. 17 (which I didn't think to note!) then it must be Janet E. Weatherley (Gordner) who is the blank person and the other occupant of the house.
Selina
See my post #182 - Brian/blank person and Janet Weatherley are both number 17, but they have different item numbers!!
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When I click on the preview for the blank person I can now see from URL that he/she is No. 17.
Underneath by the padlock symbol it shows Brian J Redshaw and 1 more person are on this record and 1 more person who is officially closed. So it is the blank person who is No. 17 and not Brian.
Selina
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I just looked at preview for Janet E. Weatherby (Gordner) and it shows
Agnes K Gamble and 2 more people and 2 more people who are officially closed.
It looks like there is some transcription problem somewhere here!
Selina
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Disregard my last Weatherby is 04/17 blank person is 05/17.
Selina
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lol Yes!
I've just searched 1616a 003 and received results for 002!
At the end of the day I'm not even interested in the Redshaws, but one of the set of records for this family has all the other details for my Clark grandparents (dates of birth and occupation) and I'm just trying to work out if I should be buying the page (and if so which one!!) or whether that will just give me the Redshaws!
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You have real headache material! Best of luck anyway.
Selina
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I seem to be one of the people who are getting a second name on an entry
Selina
I've just discovered that I'm now getting that. I use Chrome and Windows10. What a bonus!
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This has probably been mentioned but when I click on an entry ie "Joe Soap" it says the name of the spouse/significant other etc in the household ie "Margaret Soap is also in this household", then the number of whoever else is there.
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This has probably been mentioned but when I click on an entry ie "Joe Soap" it says the name of the spouse/significant other etc in the household ie "Margaret Soap is also in this household", then the number of whoever else is there.
That's what I just said! Very strange as not everyone is getting that.
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I am getting the second name thingy on Windows 7 and Firefox and XP and Firefox.
Selina
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I seem to be one of the people who are getting a second name on an entry
Selina
I've just discovered that I'm now getting that. I use Chrome and Windows10. What a bonus!
Just downloaded chrome on my iPad but not getting the 2nd name there (nor on Safari) :(
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I am looking for John[known as Jack] Bellamy.
When he married my aunt Edith Clulo on 22nd Oct. 1939, he was living at 36,Clibran Street, Cheetham, Manchester.
I have found Clibran street but there is only one page available and those are all the odd nos! ???
Can anyone tell me how to find the even nos.?
Kooky
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This has probably been mentioned but when I click on an entry ie "Joe Soap" it says the name of the spouse/significant other etc in the household ie "Margaret Soap is also in this household", then the number of whoever else is there.
That's what I just said! Very strange as not everyone is getting that.
Well we must make the most of that before FindMyPast rumble us if their bank balance starts slowing down lol.
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I seem to be one of the people who are getting a second name on an entry
Selina
I've just discovered that I'm now getting that. I use Chrome and Windows10. What a bonus!
Just downloaded chrome on my iPad but not getting the 2nd name there (nor on Safari) :(
There seems to be no consistency, I AM getting the second name on my iPad with Safari.
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Does anyone know if these second names do indeed appear if you buy the page?
The dreaded Brian Redshaw appears for Selina where I have a blank record, but I note he isn't with his parents and family - The original record I had for him (with family) showed his year of birth as 1888 though he was actually born in 1934. He died in 2009 so his record should be closed in 1939 as he died after the cut off.
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Also getting second name with Win 7 and Internet Explorer.
Selina
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Does anyone know if these second names do indeed appear if you buy the page?
The dreaded Brian Redshaw appears for Selina where I have a blank record, but I note he isn't with his parents and family - The original record I had for him (with family) showed his year of birth as 1888 though he was actually born in 1934. He died in 2009 so his record should be closed in 1939 as he died after the cut off.
I have bought one record and the second name is there along with the rest of the names on the page (apart from the officially closed of course). You should see the 'blank' name or something there, possibly unreadable?
Selina
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Well I am on a normal laptop, a Asus PC and getting the second name entry. Strange if not everyone is getting it.
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Not getting it on a desktop PC running w10 on IE11 or Chrome 🙄
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It is not only incorrectly transcribed surnames to contend with. I found when searching for my mother and grandmother with only the name of the road and town, I got a zero result, although I recognised many of the neighbours, a lot were missing. I knew the address because my parents still lived there after they married, and I was born there.
When I searched again using their name and town but no street, up they came, the name of the road was misspelt. It seems half the road has been correctly indexed as AlexandRA, the other half incorrectly as AlexandER. When I searched the road again with the wrong spelling I found the missing neighbours.
I have notified FindMyPast, but I don't know if they will amend the index, because the naming the road is not shown on the unlocked image.
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I am looking for John[known as Jack] Bellamy.
When he married my aunt Edith Clulo on 22nd Oct. 1939, he was living at 36,Clibran Street, Cheetham, Manchester.
I have found Clibran street but there is only one page available and those are all the odd nos! ???
Can anyone tell me how to find the even nos.?
Kooky
A John Bellany (1913) is at 36 CLIBURN Street ref 4504d/08 with Thomas and Annette Bellany.
Selina
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Re getting the other names on a search, does it make a difference whether or not you subscribe and are logged in to FindMyPast?
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I'm logged in and have an annual world membership, but not getting the 2nd name on desktop (W10, IE11 or Chrome) or iPad (safari or chrome).
Have been using the reference number in the browser bar so am finding what I'm looking for but it's strange why we see things differently.
My main disappointment is that I'd hoped to find extra children in families started in the 1911 census, but of course we can only see those born between 1911 and 1915 (many of whom will have left home / married by 1939 so are not with their parents) or were born later than 1915 but died before the cut off (eg I have an 8 year gap in one family, children born in 1908 and 1910 from census, 1918 is a direct ancestor, and a previously unknown child born 1923). I feel sure there would have been others between 1910 and 1918 but with a Davies surname and Thomas mother's maiden name it's a big search.
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Sorry if this has been asked before. I have just started to access records from the 1939 register, and have queries regarding 'officially closed' records.
I accessed the record which would contain my paternal grandparents, my father and his two brothers. My grandparents records are shown, but all three of the children are 'closed'. All three children are dead, all died in England, I have copies of the death certs for all three. The eldest died in 1993, so I understand why his record is 'closed', but the others died in 1976 and 1980. So my queries are:
I would appear to be seeing 2 out of 3 of the children incorrectly 'closed', is this typical of your experiences?
I have all three UK death carts, but I am using FindMyPast on PAYG at the moment, my subscription has lapsed. How do I go about informing FindMyPast about the three deceased children?
Many thanks for any help.
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Selina, thanks,
I'll have another look 8)
Kooky
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Re getting the other names on a search, does it make a difference whether or not you subscribe and are logged in to FindMyPast?
I get second name both logged in or out.
Selina
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Sorry if this has been asked before. I have just started to access records from the 1939 register, and have queries regarding 'officially closed' records.
I accessed the record which would contain my paternal grandparents, my father and his two brothers. My grandparents records are shown, but all three of the children are 'closed'. All three children are dead, all died in England, I have copies of the death certs for all three. The eldest died in 1993, so I understand why his record is 'closed', but the others died in 1976 and 1980. So my queries are:
I would appear to be seeing 2 out of 3 of the children incorrectly 'closed', is this typical of your experiences?
I have all three UK death carts, but I am using FindMyPast on PAYG at the moment, my subscription has lapsed. How do I go about informing FindMyPast about the three deceased children?
Many thanks for any help.
Not all pre 1991 deaths were upated on the register, which is probably why your two are closed.
If you have the death certificates you can click on update records and follow the instructions to ask for them to be updated.
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Selina,
have now found Jack Bellamy and corrected the errors!
Kooky
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Jonathan C
have a read here
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/watch-1436591498.html
explains how & why it happens and how to sort it out
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This probably may explain why I cannot find some people who I have DOB's. One was born in 1876 but died in 1952 (long pre 1991) and 2 were born in 1894 and the hubby died 1978 and wife in 1993 (after 1991 but born long before 1916). Maybe they were not updated on the register so remain closed when they should be open.
Thanks for the link dawn, makes good reading.
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Selina,
have now found Jack Bellamy and corrected the errors!
Kooky
That's good, at least one of many put right!
Selina
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Jonathan C
have a read here
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/watch-1436591498.html
explains how & why it happens and how to sort it out
Thanks for the link Dawn, very helpful. As I am using FindMyPast on PAYG is your understanding that I would pay £25 for each correction?
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Thanks for the link Dawn, very helpful. As I am using FindMyPast on PAYG is your understanding that I would pay £25 for each correction?
The £25 is for the National Archives to open a redacted entry.
Any corrections (i.e. if the transcription does not agree with what the image shows) are done free of charge.
Cheers
Guy
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Probably this has already been dealt with, so apologies if it has, but what were the arrangements for people who would be absent from the UK a good deal - for instance people in the Armed Forces, or in my father in law's case the Merchant Navy. In other words, I can't find him - William Archer Barker, born 1905 in Liverpool, a marine engineer. I've already spent 120 credits to no avail - any suggestions please?
Thanks
Derby Girl
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Have been looking for a relative who i have a DOB 1906 and who died in 1989 both in the same town.
She never married so in theory should be easy to find, even allowing for a transcription error I've been unable to find her. I have spent several hours trying all combinations.
Am putting it on the back burner for the moment but would love to find her, just to know wheat her occupation was!
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Sorry if this has been asked before. I have just started to access records from the 1939 register, and have queries regarding 'officially closed' records.
I accessed the record which would contain my paternal grandparents, my father and his two brothers. My grandparents records are shown, but all three of the children are 'closed'. All three children are dead, all died in England, I have copies of the death certs for all three. The eldest died in 1993, so I understand why his record is 'closed', but the others died in 1976 and 1980. So my queries are:
I would appear to be seeing 2 out of 3 of the children incorrectly 'closed', is this typical of your experiences?
I have all three UK death carts, but I am using FindMyPast on PAYG at the moment, my subscription has lapsed. How do I go about informing FindMyPast about the three deceased children?
Many thanks for any help.
Not all pre 1991 deaths were upated on the register, which is probably why your two are closed.
If you have the death certificates you can click on update records and follow the instructions to ask for them to be updated.
Thanks for your reply. Are there stats available for the accuracy of the register by the time 1991 came round? Maybe I was just unlucky with my first query, but 1 of 3 correct does not seem great. I transcribe for FreeBMD and FreeCen so I understand transcription is not an exact science, but if the underlying data is poor...
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Thanks for the link Dawn, very helpful. As I am using FindMyPast on PAYG is your understanding that I would pay £25 for each correction?
The £25 is for the National Archives to open a redacted entry.
Any corrections (i.e. if the transcription does not agree with what the image shows) are done free of charge.
Cheers
Guy
Thanks for the reply. Maybe I'm having (another?) senior moment, or maybe I need to phrase my question better, if so my apologies. I am looking at a household where all three children are 'officially closed'. I have UK death certs for all three (1993, 1976 and 1980) and would be asking that all three be opened. Will that be done free of charge if I supply copies of the certs?
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Thanks for the reply. Maybe I'm having (another?) senior moment, or maybe I need to phrase my question better, if so my apologies. I am looking at a household where all three children are 'officially closed'. I have UK death certs for all three (1993, 1976 and 1980) and would be asking that all three be opened. Will that be done free of charge if I supply copies of the certs?
I subscribe to Find My Past and have applied to have both my parents records opened with their death certs free of charge. I don't know what happens if you are on payg?
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Thanks for the reply. Maybe I'm having (another?) senior moment, or maybe I need to phrase my question better, if so my apologies. I am looking at a household where all three children are 'officially closed'. I have UK death certs for all three (1993, 1976 and 1980) and would be asking that all three be opened. Will that be done free of charge if I supply copies of the certs?
I believe it is only free of charge if you a have a subscription to FindMyPast.
"Findmypast.co.uk annual subscribers can request a check of the closed records free of charge and if successful, the record will be made available via the online service. "
"Non-findmypast.co.uk annual subscribers should use The National Archives Freedom of Information (FOI) request form to request a search of closed records from the 1939 Register. If the record can be opened, we will send you a full transcription of the information held in the record. Please note there is a fixed charge of £25 for this service."
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Thanks, that's how I read it too.
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Well so far I have found it very useful I found out that my 2nd Great Grandmother was living with my 2nd Great Aunt in Birmingham in 1939. This aunt had been a brickwall of mine for sometime, thanks to the 1939 register I have been able to trace her marriage and death.
I have come across the odd "closed" entry but in one instance was able to work it out as the "g's" of the name decended bellow the blacked out line and thus it was easy to guess who they were and on another occasion my father (still living) is there while his brother (dead) is closed. Go figure.
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How much is an annual subscription? It may be that if you have several closed records that you want to open, it would be cheaper to buy a subscription and you'd also be able to look at other record as well.
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How much is an annual subscription? It may be that if you have several closed records that you want to open, it would be cheaper to buy a subscription and you'd also be able to look at other record as well.
My 12 month World subscription was £116.55 just recently.Mind you I have been a member with them for years.
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What about just UK? I can't find it as it just takes me to my account and tries to get me to upgrade. ;D
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What about just UK? I can't find it as it just takes me to my account and tries to get me to upgrade. ;D
If you just have UK then go into your account and click on my subscription on the right it will tell you how much you pay.
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I got a special offer though and only paid £49.75 for a year!
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Thanks to all for the feedback. In this particular case I'm 99% sure the closed records are the three children (including my late father). They would all be at school, so no great interest in occupations etc. Was just concerned at the fact that 2 of the 3 records should have been open, and whether this is indicative of the accuracy of the register as of 1991. Both deaths occurred in England, one at home, one in hospital, full deaths certs issued in both cases.
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My dad's b 1924 d Dec 1970 should have been open,as should my uncle's b 1924 d 1973.
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I've read all the comments and tips with interest. I'm a bit bemused with my (several) Chelsea families who either seem to have people missing from the household who I would expect to be there (no, I don't think they had joined the armed forces/been evacuated at that time) or are missing from the register completely.
I was just looking at the free previews out of curiosity. But on reading the link Dawnsh posted (thank you again!) I got quite unreasonably cross at FindMyPast's offhand comment that if a person who was born post 1915 but died pre-1991 was still closed, it just meant the NHS hadn't updated the Register. Or couldn't be bothered?
I find that a bit disrespectful to my late father (1922-1971)& others especially as there were obviously many people whose deaths went unrecorded by the NHS, if all the many comments on here are anything to go by.
Well that's me worked up over nothing as usual! I just get fed-up with inaccuracies in what should be a straightforward database. Why pay money to view something so obviously flawed?
(But then we recently discovered my husband has 2 records for our local hospital so if the GP can't find a result on one, she goes into the other one which is the same number with a letter attached. ::))
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I looked up a group of random people from my tree who were all born after 1915 and all died well before the 1990s. Of the ten or twelve people I looked for I only found one (and I did try quite a few variables etc and as one was my father I tried even harder to find him). Obviously some may be very badly mistranscribed etc etc but I was still pretty surprised at the poor success rate.
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So people born in the 1880s and 1890s probably have been redacted due to the NHS not updating their death records. I'd think though during 2014-2015 transcribing tha common sense would be someone born 1880-1900 would the most likely not be alive in 2015. Even people born pre 1880 may have been redacted.
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I just thought Id have another look for my dad and this time I just put in his date of birth without the name (I've probably already done this but never mind!). As I was looking through the results I noted just how many more women than men there were - the first three pages had 15 women and five men each - then I remembered I'd selected male at the start, so what are so many women doing in the results?
EDIT _ forget that - when I went back to the search page the Male I'd entered had magically gone. Still some women in the results though, and my father is still not there.
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So people born in the 1880s and 1890s probably have been redacted due to the NHS not updating their death records. I'd think though during 2014-2015 transcribing tha common sense would be someone born 1880-1900 would the most likely not be alive in 2015. Even people born pre 1880 may have been redacted.
I thought everyone showing a birth date before 1915 was automatically included?
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So people born in the 1880s and 1890s probably have been redacted due to the NHS not updating their death records. I'd think though during 2014-2015 transcribing tha common sense would be someone born 1880-1900 would the most likely not be alive in 2015. Even people born pre 1880 may have been redacted.
No, anyone over 100 years old (alive or dead) has not been redacted. The issue is with people born 1915- who have died and for whom the register has not been updated, and therefore have been redacted.
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I've just viewed the entry for my father (redacted) and my grandparents and cannot understand the numbering. The page reads as follows:
House no 53 schedule 115 1 Grandfather
Entry closed
2 Grandmother
Entry closed
Entry closed
Entry closed
4 A.N Other
House no 57 schedule 116. 1 Individual no 1
2 Individual no 2
Can anyone explain this? All the other couples on the page seem to be be 1&2 with children redacted, but in this case someone (? possibly my father) comes between my grandparents. Also, house number 55 is either missing or the schedule number has been missed. Sadly, without seeing the whole thing, I may never know. I have applied for the opening of my father's entry, so I may be able to clarify the first point
Steve
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When you consider that the register was compiled in 1939, the NHS didn't exist until 1948 and the updates took place until 1991 at a time with no or little computing power available it is IMO not entirely surprising that the register was inaccurate by 1991. Not sure if FindMyPast have made this quite clear enough, or if anyone has quantified the issue.
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So people born in the 1880s and 1890s probably have been redacted due to the NHS not updating their death records. I'd think though during 2014-2015 transcribing tha common sense would be someone born 1880-1900 would the most likely not be alive in 2015. Even people born pre 1880 may have been redacted.
I thought everyone showing a birth date before 1915 was automatically included?
Everyone born 100 years and one day ago should be open but errors do occur, just like some people who should have been redacted are still open.
Do not forget the database is still being updated and reconciled with the deaths index, this is not just a problem that faces FindMyPast but will face any other provider who licences the databse when it becomes available to them.
In reality it will be a problem (though a lessening problem) until well after 2040.
Cheers
Guy
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I've just viewed the entry for my father (redacted) and my grandparents and cannot understand the numbering. The page reads as follows:
House no 53 schedule 115 1 Grandfather
Entry closed
2 Grandmother
Entry closed
Entry closed
Entry closed
4 A.N Other
House no 57 schedule 116. 1 Individual no 1
2 Individual no 2
Can anyone explain this? All the other couples on the page seem to be be 1&2 with children redacted, but in this case someone (? possibly my father) comes between my grandparents. Also, house number 55 is either missing or the schedule number has been missed. Sadly, without seeing the whole thing, I may never know. I have applied for the opening of my father's entry, so I may be able to clarify the first point
Steve
He/she could be a child of theirs.
I have the same problem with the image I have put on line at http://www.rootschat.com/links/01eoz/ if you
scroll to the foot of the page the image is there.
At house number 60 are my grandparents with a redacted person between them.
I think that person is my uncle John Percy Hugh Guy who was killed in action 29 Sep 1944. In approximately the right position on the image there is the bottom loop of the name John. If one scrolls across to the right hand page it seems to say something cadet. JPH Guy was at Oxford in 39 could he have been a cadet? He must have joined up around that time as on Sunday, 14th April. 1940 he was on HMS Orion waiting to be shipped to Norway as part of the Norwegian campaign.
Cheers
Guy
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Its the quality of the NHS database as at 1991 that is the major issue. My current experience (albeit based on one household) is that it is 33% accurate, so 67% inaccurate in respect of people born after 1915 who died prior to 1991, dying in England. Updating by cross referencing against (for example) FreeBMD may be possible, but how many John Smiths die each year. My father, born 1926, died in 1976 in England, death cert issued, but still seems to have been listed on the register in 1991. His brother born 1930, died in 1980 in England, death cert issued, likewise.
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Guy - I'm guessing in your grandparents' house the men were listed first then the women, which is why your uncle possibly appears in between his parents. Not sure how common this is... I've seen it a few times in the 1911 census, whereas most families listed by age.
This could be the same for the household Old Bristolian is looking at, therefore the first closed entry could be a son born after 1915, and the others could be daughters.
Just a guess...
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Thanks Guy & Claire,
I'm sure the first redacted entry must be my father, with the males in the household listed first. I have asked for the entry to be opened and have supplied the death cert. The next three (redacted) entries would appear to be the house next door (no. 55), as the following entry has the individual as no. 4 in the household - certainly my grandparents only had one child.
What puzzles me are the schedule numbers which do not allow a household between 53 and 57. I wonder why FindMyPast have blanked out the whole line, including addresses and not just the personal details
Steve
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I did have to check my tree to see any ancestors or their siblings who were still alive in 1939 so I can look them up. It is like a 1939 census.
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Guy - I'm guessing in your grandparents' house the men were listed first then the women, which is why your uncle possibly appears in between his parents. Not sure how common this is... I've seen it a few times in the 1911 census, whereas most families listed by age.
This could be the same for the household Old Bristolian is looking at, therefore the first closed entry could be a son born after 1915, and the others could be daughters.
Just a guess...
I don't know on the 1911 census he has given the servants first, Gardener, Cook (gardener's wife), housemaid (16 years old), visitor (later to be his wife) then himself missing out his second christian name.
I assume he possibly thought he was not going to be there on the night of the census and filled in the first three then added the last two names before returning the schedule.
But that is only a wild guess.
However as he was still married to his first wife (they never divorced and he had 4 children by his second wife before they finally married in 1934 (12 years after the birth of their 4th and final child and almost a year after the death of his 1st wife) it is not really surprising.
Cheers
Guy
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Latest advice from FindMyPast re the missing stretch of Caithness Drive, Crosby:
"Thank you for your interest in the 1939 register.
I was sorry to hear that you were unable to find the record you were looking for.
The street may not have been taken in order, for example odd numbers may have been taken first as the enumerator moved up on side of the street.
The most likely cause for a side of a street not at first appearing, will be an error in the transcription. If you are searching for a particular street and are unable to find it you may need to be flexible in the search terms that you use.
"I would suggested searching through Crosby MB results in order to find the records.
The records will not be missing however they may have been mis-transcribed and are there, but showing as a wrongly named street.
You can used the reference to search for missing streets too, however the records after 44 may appear in a following item number.
I do hope this has helped, please contact us again should you have any other queries."
I've replied along the lines of "That wouldn't explain why the inhabitants of the missing houses in Caithness Drive, Crosby (4729i/007) are also missing from your names index. " I've given them the names of householders from the 1938 directory and some examples of residence there continuing until long after the war.
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The records will not be missing however they may have been mis-transcribed and are there, but showing as a wrongly named street.
That's quite a sweeping statement isn't it? I have the same problem, a section of the street where my grandparents lived is missing. I've also searched using their names and the names of their neighbours who I know should also be there. I've received the same standard reply from FindMyPast twice, which makes me think they are not reading emails properly and answering them individually.
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To be honest I wasn't expecting much more than unhelpful standard replies from FindMyPast but it would be nice to think that someone there would read the information I am sending and take a look themselves. After all they are in a position to page through the images in their database - we are not.
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To be honest I wasn't expecting much more than unhelpful standard replies from FindMyPast but it would be nice to think that someone there would read the information I am sending and take a look themselves. After all they are in a position to page through the images in their database - we are not.
What makes you think the people manning the reply desk have access to the database, it is highly unlikely that they do?
I would think it is more likely they have a basic guide as to how to conduct searches for names, streets and similar searches plus hints about possible faults and causes.
I very much doubt they have experience of the databse or access to the database.
But like you I am just guessing
Cheers
Guy
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I emailed Find MY Past and asked the following question....
"Could someone please explain why this entry for Rebecca Miller (later Berzon) has 2 dates of birth?
What is the significance of the date in the address column 23/5/45 and why do BQ/RM 80 mean on the right?
Ref: RG101/0266J/003/10 Letter Code: ALEC
Beazon (Miller) Household (3 People) 161 Stroud Green Road , Islington, London, England"
Last night they replied....
" Dear Carol
Thank you for your email.
Although I can't explain why the person who completed the form originally will have noted two dates of birth, I can confirm that the amended reference will likely have been part of a medical note - we will never have access to these and they will never be divulged.
I do hope this helps a little.
With kind regards, "
So I'm actually no wiser ;D ;D ;D
Carol
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To be honest, I don't know why you thought they would be the ones to ask - they put the records online, not wrote the things
Somewhere in the NHS, there might be instructions on how the records were meant to be updated, but FindMyPast aren't going to have them
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I emailed Find MY Past and asked the following question....
"Could someone please explain why this entry for Rebecca Miller (later Berzon) has 2 dates of birth?
What is the significance of the date in the address column 23/5/45 and why do BQ/RM 80 mean on the right?
Carol
What amazes me is why you thought they would know the answers to your questions.
All FindMyPast have done is scan and index a large document, they like you have never been allowed to see the document before hand yet you expect them to know all about it. ;)
They gave you a reasonable explanation about the "BQ/RM 80" code and explained they did not have access to the medical information.
There are many alterations and additions on the register some with knowledge of the family can be assumed to relate to a specific occurrence such as a date of subsequent marriage or a date of subsequent death, but I would suggest it is asking too much to expect a company to have knowledge of such specific details.
For instance on my mother’s entry on the 1939 there is a subsequent date in the address field in blue ink (25/11/1946 SAA. M.)
I assume that refers to her change of name as she remarried on 21 October 1946 in Scotland and it would take a while for the information to trickle through the system.
The is also an entry in the address column next to her son in green ink (7_12_57 then the symbol for a half ½ followed by something I cannot make out and the initials EDB) this could possibly be when he changed doctors as he went up to Edinburgh University in 1957) there is also a change of name in green ink.
It could be that the first notification of change of name they had came with him going to university, but that I will never know.
I do know that some amendments on the register were in blue, some in green and some appear to be in pencil by do not know if this is significant at present.
Perhaps when others have downloaded images we might get a clue to the significance of colour or whether it just depended on what pen was to hand at the time, maybe time will tell.
Perhaps someone who worked on the register when it was used by the NHS may know and reveal the details.
Cheers
Guy
PS I have also seen snippets of alterations in Red ink but these were under a closed record so don't have further details.
Green ink seems to be used for changes of name on re-marriage I have seen
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I'm sorry that you are all so amazed that I emailed Find My Past.
I did it because they advised me too on their Facebook page.
I asked a general query about who would I ask to know more about the results I have found.
And they said email us @ support etc.
So I did!!!!!!
I am sure they didn't transcribe all those documents with out being told a little about them?
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I am sure they didn't transcribe all those documents with out being told a little about them?
There are over 41 million records - how much time do you think they spent looking at each one?! ::)
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I'm sorry that you are all so amazed that I emailed Find My Past.
I did it because they advised me too on their Facebook page.
I asked a general query about who would I ask to know more about the results I have found.
And they said email us @ support etc.
So I did!!!!!!
I am sure they didn't transcribe all those documents with out being told a little about them?
I think you will find that perhaps some of the management might have been told a little about the general reason and subsequent use of the register no specific information was given and certainly no specific information was given to those who actually worked on the scanning and indexing.
The reason I say that is because it was so hush hush the register was transcribed in columns rather than in lines so that the transcribers could not see the entire record of an individual.
Cheers
Guy
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A 5th unhelpful response from FindMyPast
"There are a number of potential reasons for people not showing up on a first search of the Register:
• If the person was born less than 100 years ago, they are deemed to still be alive unless proven otherwise so the record is closed.
• Transcription errors – Findmypast have committed to an accuracy level of 98.5% across the whole dataset but with an index that links to a database containing details of millions of individuals it is inevitable that some errors will occur .
• Names listed differently than anticipated. As with many large databases you may need to be flexible and even creative with your searching. You may need to carry out your search a number of times but vary the information slightly, or try using surname only to find the correct family. To narrow down your search you may wish to carry out an address search.
• Individuals listed in a different location to family groups. On 29th September 1939 mass evacuation of the population had already occurred so the records of many individuals in particular may be listed in an entirely different location to the rest of the family group. You may need to review names and dates of birth of individuals in areas where individuals were evacuated to in order to find the correct record."
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Guy, I understand your points in defence of FindMyPast, but surely with such a major piece of data and considering the undoubted costs involved, they could have taken a little more time and done some analysis (perhaps using people like yourself and others experienced in genealogy) in order to identify topics and pitfalls that might show up when the public were allowed to view it. It all seems a bit rushed to me - returning to a point I made earlier, why are complete lines redacted and not just the personal details - someone didn't think it through before release
Steve
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Hi
The 1939 Register is probably only accessable to a small number of people at Findmypast as anybody working on the Register is required to have a security clearance (from Tender Document).
As Guy has mentioned transcribing was done in columns not rows(as would be the norm) so transcribers did not see a whole line let alone a page.
Unlike other releases it is likely that The National Archives dictated what could be released and how so I think blaming Findmypast without knowing the facts is a bit unreasonable. Whilst it seems logical that all addresses should be included even if there are no unredacted occupants the instructions may not allowed for this.
There was a post on a Rootsweb list regarding the Register that is worth reading.
Dear all,
Between 1987 and 1990 I spent a lot of time working with, what was by then
called, the NHS Register. The discussion about computerising patient
records had begun and I spent some time explaining the need for a unique
identifier and pointing out that the current NHS Numbers would not work. (I
will not give you're the technical details!).
The 1939 Register was used as the basis for the NHS Register. The records
were kept up to date because they showed which patient was allocated to
which GP. When a patient died the GP was supposed to return their medical
file and as a consequence would have their capitation fees reduced. (You
might see a reason there why some of them did not report deaths.) If a
patient died in hospital, or in other circumstances, the GP might not have
known about the death and the patient would remain on their books until
there was some kind of audit (a rare occurrence!). The level of inflation
in capitation fees was estimated as being between 10% and 30%. No one would
do anything about it for fear of upsetting the doctors. (When the NHS
started someone asked how the doctors had been persuaded to join and was
told by the politician in charge "We stopped their mouths with gold!")
Linking death registrations to the register may have been attempted but it
is fraught with problems. Deaths are often reported by people with little
real knowledge of the deceased. (My grandfather registered the death of
someone who had taken in grandma when her parents died and reported the age
as 101. He would have had no idea of her age. She might have been about
80!) Doctors and care workers often know only what the person has told them
and exaggerating you age is not uncommon. For married women there will be no
clues to their birth name and lots of people change or misspell their own
names. You only have to look at the census records to see how mangled a
name can get when the recorder has only heard it and the speaker cannot
read.
My expectations of this new data set were pretty low. It might help you
find A date of birth but I know all of my direct family ones for this period
from Grandma's Birthday Book. Bear in mind that this set suffers from the
transcription errors of the original recorders as well as those introduced
by FindMyPast.
I hope this helps.
Andy
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When a patient died the GP was supposed to return their medical
file and as a consequence would have their capitation fees reduced. (You
might see a reason there why some of them did not report deaths.) If a
patient died in hospital, or in other circumstances, the GP might not have
known about the death and the patient would remain on their books until
there was some kind of audit (a rare occurrence!).
Interesting, that would tend to explain why my Great Aunt is still closed because she died in hospital in 1975. Thanks for posting that.
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Many thanks Andy, for taking the trouble to post that helpful explanation.
My father's record is redacted although he died in 1989 - in hospital. Now I know why.
Carol
Added: We can only hope that some of the people who are complaining to/about FindMyPast will read this and revise their opinion. (Fat chance!)
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Guy, I understand your points in defence of FindMyPast, but surely with such a major piece of data and considering the undoubted costs involved, they could have taken a little more time and done some analysis (perhaps using people like yourself and others experienced in genealogy) in order to identify topics and pitfalls that might show up when the public were allowed to view it. It all seems a bit rushed to me - returning to a point I made earlier, why are complete lines redacted and not just the personal details - someone didn't think it through before release
Steve
It is not as simple as that all people working on the data had to have the appropriate security clearance.
From the tender document
“For material that is CLOSED, as is the case with the 1939 Register, additional security requirements apply which include a requirement for all staff working on the 1939 Register must have approriate security clearance.”
That means they are restricted who they could “employ” to advise on the 1939.
The Data Protection Act 1998 states the following-
“personal data” means data which relate to a living individual who can be identified—
(a)from those data, or
(b)from those data and other information which is in the possession of, or is likely to come into the possession of, the data controller,”
That means that a name when located in a house with others from the same family is personal data which must be redacted.
If you want to blame someone blame Tony Blair and his Labour government who brought in the Data Protection Act 1998.
The tender went out in 2013 and FindMyPast have been working on it for at least a year, part of the time was spent testing the “database” using a panel of testers from the genealogical community. But due to the restrictions they could not use real data so had to test using made up data which is never satisfactory.
There are a number of faults I can find with the way things have been handled but none of these faults has yet been raised on the forums or in answer to the various blogs.
Incidentally FindMyPast are taking all the flak at present but many of these problems are going to be experienced by other providers when they are allowed to bid for the 1939 register
Cheers
Guy
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Do you mean "security clearance" or do you simply mean "confidentiality declaration"
Are people Positively vetted? I doubt that they are?
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The 1998 Act replaced and consolidated earlier legislation such as the Data Protection Act 1984 and the Access to Personal Files Act 1987. At the same time it aimed to implement the European Data Protection Directive. In some aspects, notably electronic communication and marketing, it has been refined by subsequent legislation for legal reasons.
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Poor Findmypast have probably been bombarded by emails since the 1939 register was released, so it's a little much to expect them to answer every query. And no dataset is ever perfect... perhaps we're expecting a little too much? (Thanks to Guy and andycand for your explanations - very interesting reading!)
That being said, if Findmypast were aiming for an accuracy rate of 98.5%, I think they've failed. I've found numerous transcription mistakes so far. Maybe they felt under pressure to release the register this year, so it was a little rushed?
I'd rather have waited a little longer in return for more accurate transcriptions. Maybe they could have released one county at a time? (As long as they did Essex first... ;) )
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If they transcribed it column by column,it is amazing they would ever be able to tie up a person with a death cert then?
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For instance on my mother’s entry on the 1939 there is a subsequent date in the address field in blue ink (25/11/1946 SAA. M.)
I assume that refers to her change of name as she remarried on 21 October 1946 in Scotland and it would take a while for the information to trickle through the system.
The is also an entry in the address column next to her son in green ink (7_12_57 then the symbol for a half ½ followed by something I cannot make out and the initials EDB) this could possibly be when he changed doctors as he went up to Edinburgh University in 1957) there is also a change of name in green ink.
It could be that the first notification of change of name they had came with him going to university, but that I will never know.
I do know that some amendments on the register were in blue, some in green and some appear to be in pencil by do not know if this is significant at present.
Perhaps when others have downloaded images we might get a clue to the significance of colour or whether it just depended on what pen was to hand at the time, maybe time will tell.
Perhaps someone who worked on the register when it was used by the NHS may know and reveal the details.
Cheers
Guy
PS I have also seen snippets of alterations in Red ink but these were under a closed record so don't have further details.
Green ink seems to be used for changes of name on re-marriage I have seen
Perhaps the most fascinating aspect of the 1939 register for me so far is that it was maintained (to some extent) by hand until 1991. I would love to hear more about this. Unless some of those who maintained it come forward, I guess the only way to find out anything about the instructions (like what colour ink to use for what) given to those maintaining the record, would be a FOI request to the NHS.
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Thanks for reposting this here Andy: this is really interesting.
I don't suppose it'll stop people moaning about FindMyPast, sadly. ;)
Hi
The 1939 Register is probably only accessable to a small number of people at Findmypast as anybody working on the Register is required to have a security clearance (from Tender Document).
As Guy has mentioned transcribing was done in columns not rows(as would be the norm) so transcribers did not see a whole line let alone a page.
Unlike other releases it is likely that The National Archives dictated what could be released and how so I think blaming Findmypast without knowing the facts is a bit unreasonable. Whilst it seems logical that all addresses should be included even if there are no unredacted occupants the instructions may not allowed for this.
There was a post on a Rootsweb list regarding the Register that is worth reading.
Dear all,
Between 1987 and 1990 I spent a lot of time working with, what was by then
called, the NHS Register. The discussion about computerising patient
records had begun and I spent some time explaining the need for a unique
identifier and pointing out that the current NHS Numbers would not work. (I
will not give you're the technical details!).
The 1939 Register was used as the basis for the NHS Register. The records
were kept up to date because they showed which patient was allocated to
which GP. When a patient died the GP was supposed to return their medical
file and as a consequence would have their capitation fees reduced. (You
might see a reason there why some of them did not report deaths.) If a
patient died in hospital, or in other circumstances, the GP might not have
known about the death and the patient would remain on their books until
there was some kind of audit (a rare occurrence!). The level of inflation
in capitation fees was estimated as being between 10% and 30%. No one would
do anything about it for fear of upsetting the doctors. (When the NHS
started someone asked how the doctors had been persuaded to join and was
told by the politician in charge "We stopped their mouths with gold!")
Linking death registrations to the register may have been attempted but it
is fraught with problems. Deaths are often reported by people with little
real knowledge of the deceased. (My grandfather registered the death of
someone who had taken in grandma when her parents died and reported the age
as 101. He would have had no idea of her age. She might have been about
80!) Doctors and care workers often know only what the person has told them
and exaggerating you age is not uncommon. For married women there will be no
clues to their birth name and lots of people change or misspell their own
names. You only have to look at the census records to see how mangled a
name can get when the recorder has only heard it and the speaker cannot
read.
My expectations of this new data set were pretty low. It might help you
find A date of birth but I know all of my direct family ones for this period
from Grandma's Birthday Book. Bear in mind that this set suffers from the
transcription errors of the original recorders as well as those introduced
by FindMyPast.
I hope this helps.
Andy
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Do you mean "security clearance" or do you simply mean "confidentiality declaration"
Are people Positively vetted? I doubt that they are?
If they have to have security clearance, depending on what level, it can even involve looking at the backgrounds of your immediate family in detail, including financial records. There are different levels depending on what job you are doing. Its far more rigorous than just Enhanced Criminal Records Board clearance (or whatever its now called) which I had a few years back working in the NHS even though I had no access to any patient records. I've several friends who have security clearance, one works at an airport and the others in IT for organisations providing services to government or public sector organisations.
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Guy, I understand your points in defence of FindMyPast, but surely with such a major piece of data and considering the undoubted costs involved, they could have taken a little more time and done some analysis (perhaps using people like yourself and others experienced in genealogy) in order to identify topics and pitfalls that might show up when the public were allowed to view it. It all seems a bit rushed to me - returning to a point I made earlier, why are complete lines redacted and not just the personal details - someone didn't think it through before release
Steve
Of course, if they had taken more time over it, we'd all be here complaining about how long it's taking them, and why can't they release their interim transcriptions so we can see progress. ;D ;D
Regarding the redaction of whole lines including addresses, I suspect this will again be down to the terms under which FindMyPast are working, imposed by our beloved (sarcasm) government and its mandarins. I can - unfortunately - also see a real reason why the whole line has to be redacted. If you look at some of the images of pages from the Register, there are later "notes" added to the line wherever there was space, and on most records, the address column had the most space as for the majority of records the most it contains is "ditto."
What would be really cool is if FindMyPast transcribed the 1939 electoral rolls (even if they just used OCR initially) and cross referenced them to the 1939 register. The redacted entries on the 1939 register could remain redacted, but the names and addresses from the electoral rolls could be used to search. The electoral roll is a public document, not subject to the Census Act or the same data protection restrictions as the 1939 register.
I've already used the 1939 electoral roll (on Ancestry) to find the address for someone whom I couldn't find on the 1939 Register, and having the address, I could find them - not that I can understand from the index entry why I couldn't find them by name!
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That being said, if Findmypast were aiming for an accuracy rate of 98.5%, I think they've failed.
If the population of the UK in 1939 was about 46.5 million (a quick google - may be inaccurate), then 1.5% of that would by 697,500. That's a lot of errors within their contracted margin. And I'm sure I've read that that was 98.5% of readable records. If there were a million records with inaccurate transcriptions, that's still just a 2% failure rate.
Transcribing by column must have made an often difficult job even more challenging.
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Of course, if they had taken more time over it, we'd all be here complaining about how long it's taking them, and why can't they release their interim transcriptions so we can see progress. ;D ;D
True ;D Admittedly I was itching for the register to be released and (silently) urging Findmypast to get a move on!
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If the population of the UK in 1939 was about 46.5 million (a quick google - may be inaccurate), then 1.5% of that would by 697,500. That's a lot of errors within their contracted margin. And I'm sure I've read that that was 98.5% of readable records. If there were a million records with inaccurate transcriptions, that's still just a 2% failure rate.
Fair point... I'm just judging on how many mistakes I've found already. Seems nearer 5% to me? Then again, some of them may be due to bad writing, or mistakes on the original copy, not the fault of the person transcribing.
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Of course, if they had taken more time over it, we'd all be here complaining about how long it's taking them, and why can't they release their interim transcriptions so we can see progress. ;D ;D
Not only that but it would have cost them far more and that cost would have had to have been passed on to us the users.
Cheers
Guy
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Currently having fun at TNA doing your research requests.
With regards to my own research today, with one exception, I've reported spelling mistakes for correction on every entry.
Having seen a wide variety of schedules, with amendments in coloured ink, overlapping details and fading ink, I'm not surprised the transcribers had problems. Only one schedule was written in capital letters and that was transcribed correctly.
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That being said, if Findmypast were aiming for an accuracy rate of 98.5%, I think they've failed.
If the population of the UK in 1939 was about 46.5 million (a quick google - may be inaccurate), then 1.5% of that would by 697,500. That's a lot of errors within their contracted margin. And I'm sure I've read that that was 98.5% of readable records. If there were a million records with inaccurate transcriptions, that's still just a 2% failure rate.
Not disputing the general theory of what you say, but from that (Googled) figure of 46.5m, you must subtract those in Scotland and N.Ireland not covered in the FindMyPast release.
FindMyPast themselves are quoting 41 million.
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Just downloaded my first record!
Can anyone tell me what the last column is for? Its headed 'see INSTRUCTIONS' and seems to have been cut off in its prime! All I can see in that column for my grandmother is 'PWC [I think its a P] D66/12916' and then its cut off! Should I be looking for any significance to this reference?
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The last column as you call it is the first column of the righthand page. The right hand page contains the private medical data that we are not allowed to see.
In a similar way just how much of that first column is left open depends on what it shows.
It often contains information such as wartime posts i.e. ARP, assistant nurse in a civil nursing... already called up but noted. Received ARP training etc.
Cheers
Guy
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Thanks, Guy.
I wonder if that means, should I ever locate my paternal grandfather on this register, it might finally tell me what he did in WW1?
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Sorry - another query, if anyone knows the answer. Otherwise I'll email FindMyPast but I rather think they've taken their ball home!!
Are hospitals and other 'institutions' included on the register? Presumably the inmates would also have needed ration books etc!
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jillruss - I think your query is answered on one of the many other threads related to 1939 - and the answer appears to be "yes" hospitals (possibly long-term) and other institutions are included.
Re your post related to your grandfather - not sure that the 1939 Register would help with what he did in WW1 :-\ Or did you mean WW2? ;D
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Thanks.
No, I meant WW1 - he was born 1890. I thought perhaps historical military service might be included in that column but - now you point it out - why would it be? :-[
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PWC D66/12916
This is probably a Post War Credit reference
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Thanks, Shaun. So nice to get answers on RC when they're not forthcoming from FindMyPast!
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How many Merchant seamen were there in 1939?
Most of them (if they were not home on leave) would not have been listed at their home address
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How many Merchant seamen were there in 1939?
Most of them (if they were not home on leave) would not have been listed at their home address
Just to avoid a question hanging...
In 1938 The British Merchant Service employed over 190,000 seafarers. Of these, over 130,000 were British residents and 50,000 Indian and Chinese
From the Merseyside Maritime Museum
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This topic is now locked as it's getting wonderfully long, and it's continued here:
1939 Register up and running (Part 3) (http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=735027.0)