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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: Matt R on Saturday 31 October 15 22:26 GMT (UK)
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Hello chatters,
I'm hoping someone may be able to help me please. I've recently come to viewing this photo which was in my gt gt gran's album. I am presuming it is WW1 but there are a few candidates as to who this fella could be. A relative has scanned it for me but as you can see it's a photo of a photo and so I appreciate it's not as clear as it perhaps could be.
However, despite this there are some clues here and I'd appreciate it if someone could help me out in trying to identify that cap badge, or if this man might have belonged to the artillery. I know the cap badges for artillery were not the shape this one appears to be and I note that the soldier has two stripes on his right sleeve - so it appears he was a Corporal.
I guess I'm asking if there are any more clues which I may be missing but would aid me in trying to find out who he is. Any help would be appreciated if you can please :)
Regards,
Matt.
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Hi, I can only offer a couple of things but am not sure as the photo is unclear,
he wears a bandolier which may point to a mounted unit, I tried to get a better look at his boots as he may be wearing spurs, he may also have a good conduct stripe visible on his left sleeve.
Sorry but I cannot make the cap badge out :-\
Not much help I know, but it's a start :)
Frank.
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Hi Frank,
That's good, thank you! As I say I appreciate that the photo isn't good for 'getting into' or expanding its size - I've asked my rellie to re-scan so the detail is more visible. But I appreciate your help because it could be the difference as to whether or not in identifying him.
One possibility is a fella who was a Gunner in the Royal Artillery but that cap badge doesn't fit...there are four candidates. Looks like I need to go through the service records and see if I can glean anymore info. He also looks quite short so that might be another avenue of invetigation.
Thanks again :)
Matt.
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Hi Matt,
There seems to be a badge above the corporal's stripes on his right arm. The only badge I can find that might be worn that way during this period would be the crown, which was only worn by Corporals of the Household Cavalry as far as I can see. However his cap badge looks too big for these regiments.
I guess we'll have to wait for the experts :)
Maec
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Hi, although the cap badge is "Fuzzy", coming in from the leftfield, just to throw Royal Engineer's into the mix.
Frank.
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Does the stick he is leaning on with his right hand have any significance? Could be he had an injury to his leg a the time of the photo. That could be mentioned in his service record.
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Does the stick he is leaning on with his right hand have any significance? Could be he had an injury to his leg a the time of the photo. That could be mentioned in his service record.
I've been thinking that myself, it doesn't seem to be a "prop" and it looks somewhat different to a "Walking out" stick, and as you say, he appears to be leaning on it.
I wonder if Matt has a name to work on.
Frank.
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Just to add to the bandolier comment further up the thread: my grandfather was in the South Irish Horse in 1916 and wore a bandolier identical to this soldier's one, so I too would have to suggest a mounted unit.
I also noticed that he has "puttees/gaiters" from his calves to his boots; again this would suggest that he may have been with a mounted unit as I have seen pictures of troopers from the South Irish Horse with very similar attire, for example this one: http://southirishhorse.com/sihpics.htm
The chevron on the left arm might also be a year's service chevron.
RRTB
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Hi Frank, Scobie and Maec,
Thank you for your help...there are things you have raised that now seem so obvious, but that's one reason why I thought I'd open this one up on here in the first place.
Unfortunately, it hasn't led me to identifying my soldier but I do have a number of relatives it can be. The photo was in an album which was in the possession of my great, great gran, Caroline Wertheim (sometimes Anglicised as Vertine or Virtine). Based on her siblings and cousins who I know served in the army around WW1, here is a list of who may or may not be the subject of this picture.
1. Private 5531 Moses VERTINE: Born 1874 in Ebbw Vale, Wales. Enlisted in 3rd Battalion South Wales Borderers 1894 but discharged same year. No WW1 service.
2. Private 3/8073 James VERTINE: Born c1878-81 in Ebbw Vale, Wales. Enlisted in 1903 bu no records found. WW1 medal card says he was in the 1st Battalion South Wales Borderers and was discharged in 1916 through injury and received Silver War Badge. Also served in Special Reserve 3rd Battalion. No service or pension records found.
3. driver 25290 Thomas VERTINE. Born 1883 in Ebbw Vale, Wales. Enlisted into the Royal Field Artillery and was discharged in 1918. Also a Gunner at some point. No service or pension records found.
4. Private 2528 Windsor VIRTINE. Born 1893 in Ebbw Vale, Wales. Enlisted 3rd Battalion Monmouthshire Regiment. He died of his wounds in England in May 1915. No service records found.
5. Private TR/157 Barry William WERTHAM. Born 1879 in Bristol. In WW1 served at home in 'T Res 92' and 16th Service Battalion RWR. Previous service as Private 3157 or 3757 in the 4th (H. S.) Battalion Gloucestershire Regiment. Pension records survive but he'd be mid 30s so not sure if this fella the photo?
6. Private 88727 Clifford VERTINE. Born 1898 in Ebbw Vale, Wales. Enlisted into the RAMC. Records survive.
7. Private 88737 Harry Wilfred CHAPMAN. Born 1896 in Ebbw Vale, Wales. Enlisted into RAMC.
I have done a brief search for some cap badges belonging to these regiments but nothing jumps out at me. Though, having said that, it may be a case of having not seen the wood for the trees.
Logic dictates that as these were all siblings or cousins who served in the military, I am hoping one of these men are the same as the one in the photo. I personally think we can discount number 1, Moses Wertheim as he didn't serve in WW1.
Regards,
Matt.
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Little bit of joining the dots. The rank badge right sleeve looks like, as Maec says, the Household Cavalry Lance Corporal (2 stripes with crown above). The affiliated Yeomanry unit to the Household Cavalry was the Ayrshire Yeomanry (Earl of Carrick's Own) whose cap badge (Google) bears a resemblance to that of our man. Don't know whether they wore similar rank badges to the Household cavalry though.
Or is the badge above the stripes a drum in which case............
maxD
Matt R The badges of your list don't seem to fit as you've said.
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Hello all,
I've now managed to get better quality scans of the photo following a visit to the relative who sent them. This is the best that I can get to the cap badge and hopefully it may offer up some more clues.
Also, on his left sleeve (closest to the bench) it appears he has some insignia there...looks like two crossed guns or two crossed swords.
I have attached pic for your perusing.
Thanks again for all of your help :)
Matt.
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Hi Matt, two crossed rifles would signify a "Marksman"
Frank.
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The cap badge is still a bit blurred but I reckon it could be the Royal Gloucestershire Hussars.
Interestingly, on looking them up (Wikipedia), it seems they also followed the practice of having slightly different badges of rank compared to most similar units within the British Army." A Lance Corporal has two chevrons and a Corporal has two chevrons topped with a cloth crown."
How does that fit ?
Maec
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The cap badge is still a bit blurred but I reckon it could be the Royal Gloucestershire Hussars.
..........................................................................
How does that fit ?
Maec
Very nicely to be honest ;)
Frank.
http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NDgwWDY0MA==/z/9D0AAOSwyZ5UqYWt/$_35.JPG
That link appears not to work, try this one:
http://www.britishmilitarybadges.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/p-5224-ijih-022.jpg
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Alternatively it could be a proficiency badge above his stripes. I don't think it had been mentioned, but he has a good conduct stripe on his left arm, one is for two years.
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........................................... I don't think it had been mentioned, but he has a good conduct stripe on his left arm, one is for two years.
Reply number one :P :P :P ;) :) :)
Frank. :)
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I'm interested with the connection to Gloucestershire...the family did have connections to Kingswood and Bristol. Also, upon zooming in I also notice a star on the bottom is his right sleeve, and perhaps more of a mundane clue, he also appears married by the ring on his finger.
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And funnily enough I thought the centrepiece of the cap badge looked like a portcullis!
Matt.
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Here you are, straightened up a bit, now he has normal sized feet. Can you decipher the writing across the bottom corner?
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Hi Em, thank you for that...looks much better :)
The writing says 'Yours Sincerely, C. E. Price'. This name isn't known to me as a relation but could easily have been sent by someone of that name. It's just initials but I think they're C and E.
The plot thickens!
Regards,
Matt.
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Being from a military family, I am wondering if the insignia on his left arm could be that of crossed rifles.
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No I would agree with the other poster that its a good conduct chevron. Worn in updside down direction from the rank chevrons on the other arm.
The RGH being mounted yeomanry would fit in with the leather bandolier he is wearing.