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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: notaninch on Saturday 31 October 15 11:28 GMT (UK)
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Can someone help me here, please. I have hit one of those brick walls again. In 1850 Sarah Osborn marries Raphael William Imhoff and their address is 67 Murray Street, Hoxton, London. They are married at Shoreditch Registry. What I need to find out is where she lived prior to getting married. How do I find inhabitants of a particular address - say the residents of Murray Street, Hoxton when 1841 Census was taken.
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Hi, have you got more info. on Sarah I cant seem to pick her up on any census. Age, place of birth, family?
Jennifer
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Just found her aged 50 widow born London in Salford with her two sons both born Liverpool in 1871 census.
Jennifer
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Looks like Raphael died 1866 Manchester born 1824.
Jennifer
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In Liverpool directory 1855 Raphael William Imhoff Sculptor 2 Hope Street.
Jennifer
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Hi, have you got more info. on Sarah I cant seem to pick her up on any census. Age, place of birth, family?
Jennifer
When she marries in 1850 she states she is 32, a spinster, her father is Thomas a Baker....presumably he was still alive at the time. There are a lot of Osborn's in the area but I can't locate Thomas or Sarah prior to the marriage...Obviously she becomes Imhoff so no problem there. On later censuses she gives her place of birth as Middllesex - so presumably she was born in or around Shoreditch
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Hi, have you got more info. on Sarah I cant seem to pick her up on any census. Age, place of birth, family?
Jennifer
When she marries in 1850 she states she is 32, a spinster, her father is Thomas a Baker....presumably he was still alive at the time. There are a lot of Osborn's in the area but I can't locate Thomas or Sarah prior to the marriage...Obviously she becomes Imhoff so no problem there. On later censuses she gives her place of birth as Middllesex - so presumably she was born in or around Shoreditch
Hi Jennifer yes you have the correct person - intriguingly the family change their family name from Imhoff to Osborn i.e. her maiden name.
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London Gazette 29/5/1860 he is in court for insolvency.
Living 7 months 42 Taylor Street Liverpool Retail Coal Dealer from 40 Taylor Street and previously 4 years 17 Clarence Street Edgehill West Derby.
Speculation that he worked as a sculptor on the Manchester Assizes Courts 1864.
Jennifer
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London Gazette 29/5/1860 he is in court for insolvency.
Living 7 months 42 Taylor Street Liverpool Retail Coal Dealer from 40 Taylor Street and previously 4 years 17 Clarence Street Edgehill West Derby.
Speculation that he worked as a sculptor on the Manchester Assizes Courts 1864.
Jennifer
I know he worked on St George's Hall, Liverpool...I also have his naturalisation papers. e was originally from Prussia (Cologne) and belonged to a long line of sculptors. His father William Joseph Imhoff did a great deal of sculpture work inside Cologne Cathedral. But I'm struggling ith the maternal side - the Osborn' prior to 1850.
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Find My Past has an address search for its censuses, but Murray Street doesn't come up for 1841.
In 1851 the house numbers from about 54 to 95 seem to be missing.
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That may explain why I can't find her father Thomas Osborn in the 1851 census - if he did in fact live in Murray Street. Does the address have an entry in 1861 or is this too late for Thomas Osborn. That said I am struggling to find a death record for him and we are in the era of civil registration then.
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This seems to be the address in 1851:
1535/ 174 Page: 31
Two families: Ann WARMAN and Thomas GOUGH.
Maureen
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1851 67 Murray Street
Ann Warman wid 31 Oil & Colour business born Moorfields
William 10
Harriet 9
Frederick G 7
Ann 6
The family are in Murray street in 1845 for the baptism of daughter Ann, father is William Warman Rope maker.
Jennifer
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Trying to find out more about the family that lived at the Murray Street address when they married from there.
1841 census Brick Lane St Lukes
William Warman 27 Twine maker
Ann 24
Ann 3
William 11 months all born in the county
Ann (baby) burial 17/4/1842 aged 4 address Brick Lane
William burial St John The Baptist Hoxton 19/7/1848 aged 35 address Murray Street.
Jennifer
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Trying to find out more about the family that lived at the Murray Street address when they married from there.
1841 census Brick Lane St Lukes
William Warman 27 Twine maker
Ann 24
Ann 3
William 11 months all born in the county
Ann (baby) burial 17/4/1842 aged 4 address Brick Lane
William burial St John The Baptist Hoxton 19/7/1848 aged 35 address Murray Street.
Jennifer
Hi Jennifer
I'm thinking that Murray Street may have only been a temporary address for Sarah Osborn - so may have to change tack on this. My next avenue may be to look at the witnesses at Sarah and Raphael William's wedding. From what I can tell no direct members of Raphael's are mentioned in connection with their wedding. Perhaps there were members of Sarah's family be it married to her siblings if she had any. The witnesses were Francis Harriet Elizabeth Kelly and William Harding> Might be clutching at straws though!
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I know this doesn't relate to your original question, but you say you are struggling with the Osborn's, tracing them back. The only Sarah Osbo(u)rn(e) of any spelling I can see on ancestry is one baptised to a Thomas and Ann in 1817 in Shoreditch; only problem is he is listed as a labourer, not a baker.
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This Thomas Osborn is listed as an ag lab in 1841, living at Hayes with Sarah and a 1 year old Ann. No sign of wife Ann.
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This Thomas Osborn is listed as an ag lab in 1841, living at Hayes with Sarah and a 1 year old Ann. No sign of wife Ann.
Unfortunately not the correct family....in 1851 they are still living in Hayes and Sarah is an unmarried seamstress.....by then my Sarah was married and would be known as Sarah Imhoff
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this may sound too simple, but do bride and groom need to list address/residence on the marriage record? Have you seen a direct copy of the application, or only a transcription? Pam Smith
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this may sound too simple, but do bride and groom need to list address/residence on the marriage record? Have you seen a direct copy of the application, or only a transcription? Pam Smith
Hi Pam I have a copy of the actual marriage certificate from 1850 and certainly then they gave their address which was 67 Murray Street, Hoxton. In later censuses Sarah states she was born in Middlesex London, but I can't find her in the 1841 census. She married at Shoreditch registry office and was living nearby in Hoxton her husband to be lived there too. Raphael her husband had come to London from Cologne late 1848 so I didn't anticipate him being on 1840 census. I can't find Sarah's father either - in 1850 she stated he was a baker and was alive - the 1851 census was less then 6 months later and I cannot find a death record for him or a record in London that is a match for him. By the time of the 1851 Census Sarah and Raphael had moved North and I can find them ok. Not sure if I will ever find Sarah her father and any other family before the 1851 census. Ironically I can trace Raphael William Imhoff's family back to 1576....in Cologne
Peter
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in 1850 she stated he was a baker and was alive
I don't think you can assume that he was alive solely on the basis that the marriage certificate doesn't say "deceased" . People don't always record on the marriage register that their father is deceased.
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in 1850 she stated he was a baker and was alive
I don't think you can assume that he was alive solely on the basis that the marriage certificate doesn't say "deceased" . People don't always record on the marriage register that their father is deceased.
Whilst I agree you should not make assumptions and I'm not. Both Sarah and Raphael stated their parents occupation Thomas (a Baker - Sarah's father) William (a sculptor - Raphael's father) and that they were alive at the time of their wedding in October 1850. Indeed Raphael's father died in Cologne in 1858 - I have his death certificate and I also have documentation showing William was working in Cologne Cathedral at the time of his son's wedding on some major pieces of sculpture that adorn the main chancel leading to the altar. So back to my brick wall I can't find Thomas or Sarah in the 1841 Census so I'm no further forward..... Yet I can track Raphael and William in fact in 1844 Raphael was exhibiting some major pieces at the Cologne Fair in 1844, and he was working in Vienna and Italy between 1845 and 1848 before moving to London late 1848 early 1849. I'm am quite thorough in my investigations and always endeavour to corroborate facts etc.
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I have been to Cologne Cathedral and it is breath taking.
Jennifer
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I have been to Cologne Cathedral and it is breath taking.
Jennifer
Yes it certainly is - some say the greatest in the whole of Europe. He also did all the sculpture work (or should I say artwork - indeed he was also credited with art too) on the outside of the Aachen Theatre House and many of the monuments in Cologne's main cemetery - it is for that reason I can find so much information about him. He came from a long line (family) of sculptors who worked across Europe for centuries - I'm back to the l6th century and still going. But my problem is tracing Sarah and her family back in London pre 1850.
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Both Sarah and Raphael stated their parents occupation Thomas (a Baker - Sarah's father) William (a sculptor - Raphael's father) and that they were alive at the time of their wedding in October 1850.
That would be a very unusual statement on a marriage register. You said earlier "presumably he was still alive at the time".
If this Sarah Osborn was the one baptised at St Leonard Shoreditch in 1817 (parents Thomas, a labourer, and Ann, Hackney Road) then she had a brother John Stock Osborn born and baptised in 1814.
Noting that Thomas Gough of 67 Murray Street was married to a Jemima Allshorn, I did wonder if Osborn might be a corruption of Allshorn but Jemima's older sister Sarah seems to have married a William Hickson in 1841, and their father was a William.
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Both Sarah and Raphael stated their parents occupation Thomas (a Baker - Sarah's father) William (a sculptor - Raphael's father) and that they were alive at the time of their wedding in October 1850.
That would be a very unusual statement on a marriage register. You said earlier "presumably he was still alive at the time".
If this Sarah Osborn was the one baptised at St Leonard Shoreditch in 1817 (parents Thomas, a labourer, and Ann, Hackney Road) then she had a brother John Stock Osborn born and baptised in 1814.
Noting that Thomas Gough of 67 Murray Street was married to a Jemima Allshorn, I did wonder if Osborn might be a corruption of Allshorn but Jemima's older sister Sarah seems to have married a William Hickson in 1841, and their father was a William.
Shaun I agree - normally I would expect either their name and occupation or that plus (deceased) but it states living for both..nothing suprises me about documents anymore - I've had deceased when they are still alive, I've had German born in Ireland (when they never even visited the place - nor their parents but emigrated to USA).
I must admit I've looked at the record you refer to Thomas Osborn married Ann Littlehales 1814 and had Sarah, John Stock and Elizabeth Mary Ann....but not convinced yet possibly because of the occupation...did people change jobs retrain back then ?????