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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Guy Etchells on Friday 30 October 15 15:34 GMT (UK)
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What is the feeling on the forum about the pending destruction of the paper version 1939 National Registration.
Due to the interest on the internet I have been re-reading the on line tender document for it and found the following.
“The National Archives will not retain the original material and the newly created digital record will become the definitive official record.”
Does the forum think the original paper version should be preserved or does the forum think it is safe to destroy the original now there is an electronic version available?
Cheers
Guy
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It is a bit worrying, as we all know how many mistakes have been found in transcriptions from the census etc. If the original is destroyed there would be no way of checking any queries. Surely space could be found in the Archives or elsewhere to store it?
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I think the original material should not be destroyed.
Digital formats may be rendered obsolete or lost (even extra copies can be lost or damaged) over time. There are far too many examples of this happening.
Regards,
Josephine
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Definitely not be destroyed. :o
There must be some space available in TNA
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Keep the original.
Always go back to primary source.
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The original records remain in the custody of HSCIC, they were not transferred to TNA, and they won't be. The original records were later added to, including sensitive coded medical information which will never be open to the public, and that is why the original books have to remain with the HSCIC. So you would have to ask them what they intend to do with them, and they are people to convince that they should be kept. I didn't see anything in the tender document about destroying them.
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What is the feeling on the forum about the pending destruction of the paper version 1939 National Registration.
Due to the interest on the internet I have been re-reading the on line tender document for it and found the following.
“The National Archives will not retain the original material and the newly created digital record will become the definitive official record.”
Does the forum think the original paper version should be preserved or does the forum think it is safe to destroy the original now there is an electronic version available?
Cheers
Guy
They certainly should not be destroyed. I wouldnt think they would be so stupid. But then again, brains are in short supply these days lol.
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No dont destroy the original records. That is like locking the door after the horse has bolted.
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Though a digital scan should be OK many of the scans I have seen by the LDS amongst others leave much to be desired. Also, digital documents don't last for ever, and even if they did sooner or later through technical developments become inaccessible. Who for instance nowadays apart from old fogey idiots like myself have a floppy disk reader attached to their computer?
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Definitely should not be destroyed - at least, not yet and maybe never. Nor do I think that the digital copies should become the definitive official record - factually, they are not the original records.
I know it's not a census as such, but have all the paper census records been destroyed?
Possibly it is something that can be re-visited in say, 10 yrs., by which time all the bugs and mistakes hopefully will have been corrected by FindMyPast. (one can live in hope ;D )
What actual records are 'they' thinking of destroying?
There has been space for them somewhere all this time since 1939, so put them back there for now.
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Thank you for bringing this to peoples attention Guy
Yes the first reaction is '' no'' and ultimately I think that will be my position as well. I think a Primary Source should always be kept at the existing Record centre.
It may well be dependent on the materials used ie poorly made paper and the life of that paper anyway. I think we all accept that there is a finite life to material and most old books and records are kept in areas to prolong their lives. Some of these books and records are copies of earlier books and records anyway.
What difference does it make to transcribe to the internet as opposed to a new book? We clamour now for ''electronic BMD records'' without thought to the paper records. Why would this be any different? Over time Digital Record - even with their own peculiar failings - will become the norm.
My final position would be - let the paper collapse on its own , don't destroy it just because.
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Didn't they plan to destroy the WW1 medal cards, until somebody pointed out that some of them had notes on the back?
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Excuse my ignorance, but I haven't been following this register too closely. Is the digital record simply a transcription, or is it a set of digital images, with an accompanying transcription?
And I agree with David; don't destroy it for the sake of room or whatever reason.
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“The National Archives will not retain the original material and the newly created digital record will become the definitive official record.”
That doesn't say that the originals will be destroyed, just that the National Archive won't keep them.
Mean_genie said "The original records remain in the custody of HSCIC, they were not transferred to TNA, and they won't be." Which suggests they will be preserved, they just won't be available for open access, but the digital archive will.
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Hi
Where were the records physically located previously? I thought they used to be at the GRO (Southport) and that you applied to he NHS Information Centre, The 1939 Register Team at Southport for release of data. This service is closing from monday and being taken over by Findmypast. My reading of the tender document is that the paper records would not be held at TNA but stored elsewhere.
Andy
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I think paper records should definitely be kept as they are the genuine record - digital records are as good as the people who input the information and errors can be made or things omitted. We have had experience recently where original records proved to be invaluable - one a Church history project brought to life by original photographs and written records and another where all paper records of an organisation had been destroyed some time ago leaving no record whatsoever of the organisation in the 1960's. As members from this time we have helped to piece the history together by accessing the informaton kept by individuals but much will be gone forever for only parts have been retained by the members.
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A digital version of a record isn't the same as a transcription. These particular digital records comprise images AND transcriptions. Not the same as original paper documents, but invaluable when the paper version is at risk from frequent handling, and the 1939 Register books were in constant use for more than 50 years.
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What month was the 1939 taken?
my parents and my older sister left uk in 1939.
only my sister is alive now.
do I have to send death certs for my parents from Australia?
thanks for any replies. .May have missed this info if it has been posted.
Regards Ricoba
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A digital version of a record isn't the same as a transcription. These particular digital records comprise images AND transcriptions. Not the same as original paper documents, but invaluable when the paper version is at risk from frequent handling, and the 1939 Register books were in constant use for more than 50 years.
But were they the original 1939 national Register was suppossed to have be closed in 1952, assurances were given in parliament to that effect.
The numbering system was then used for a new NHS register but that was not suppossed to be the original 1939 National Register.
Here for instance is part of an exchange in the Commons-
HC Deb 21 May 1953 vol 515 cc2233-4
"Lieut.-Colonel Lipton
How is it possible for the Minister to say that national registration has been completely abandoned when people are required to keep, remember and make use of their national registration numbers? Is he not, in effect, still attempting to hoax the public into believing that national registration has been abandoned, whereas unless the individual remembers his national registration number he can find himself in all kinds of difficulties?
Mr. Macleod
Oh, no. Any large scheme—for example, the National Health Insurance scheme before the Health Service was introduced—is bound to be based upon a system of numbers. We have used the same system of numbers, but national registration, happily, does not exist any more, and as a consequence a lot of staff and a great deal of money have been saved."
Note Mr. Macleod did not state the register was now being used by the NHS but only "We have used the same system of numbers..."
It now seems that in spite of the assurances the original register may have been unlawfully used, perhaps that is why there was so much secrecy surrounding it.
Whenever groups visited Southport it was shown to them from a distance whereas with other closed records the public were allowed to get close to but not touch or open.
Were Members of the House of Commons decieved, if so why?
It seems the more we learn about the 1939 National Registration the more questions need answering.
Cheers
Guy
P.S. I also want to know why people who paid to receive a transcript of details of a household seem to have been given a transcript of a different register, but perhaps more of that will be revealed on Monday.
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Ricoba. It was taken on 29 September 1939. If your parents were still in England and Wales then, you would need to supply death certificates because they died overseas, unless they were born over 100 years ago, in which case their records will be open anyway.
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Thanks for your reply.
My sister had her first birthday in May 1939 on the ship coming to Australia, so I take it her and my parents won't be listed.
Thanks for clearing it up for me.
kind regards
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Guy
I'm not sure what the issue is here. From the piece that you quote, the minister didn't say that the same books were going to be used, but he didn't say that they weren't going to be used either. My guess is that at the time most people's reaction to the end of NR would have been 'Good, I don't have to keep that wretched card on me any more and produce it to nosy officials on demand, and get fined if I don't'. I doubt than many would have given any thought whatever to the register books, and if they had, I doubt they would have cared. In a climate where rationing was still in force and paper was in short supply, the profligate destruction of upwards of 7,000 books and their replacement with a new set would have been more likely to provoke howls of protest, quite rightly.
Whenever groups visited Southport it was shown to them from a distance whereas with other closed records the public were allowed to get close to but not touch or open.
This is hardly surprising. Since the books contain highly sensitive health information on the right-hand pages (which remain permanently closed) I wouldn't expect them to be on display at all other than under strictly-controlled conditions.
I expect the background story and the administrative details of the way the change was handled are somewhere in the records of the Ministry of Health, and/or the GRO if anyone cares to look; the civil service often records in minute detail the precise means by which it moves bits of paper from desk to desk, as you can see even from the small selection that have been published on HISTPOP. I doubt there is any great conspiracy to be uncovered, but you never know until you look. I'm sure if you were to ask anyone who used to work on the registers at Southport they would be happy to confirm that the same books were in use from 1939.
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Guy
I'm not sure what the issue is here. snip
There are actually a number of issues here.
First. Are the paper volumes of the 1939 National Register going to be archived or destroyed.
The tender document suggests to me they are going to be destroyed.
Second. If the 1939 national Census was in use until 1991 then why were lies told to the members of the House of Commons in 1952 and later.
Perhaps it is time a law was passed making it an offence to lie in either of the Houses of Parliament.
Third. Function Creep. The 1939 National Registration Act required the public to provide details for three specific purposes (national service, national security and food rationing). Instead of staying within that remit the authorities allowed function creep to expand the usage to many other functions (the NHS central Register for one, others involved the opening of Post Office Savings Bank accounts, collecting parcels, checking pension claims and routine police inquiries, for instance when a motorist was speeding.
As Lord Goddard, the Lord Chief Justice stated “It is obvious that the police now, as a matter of routine, demand the production of national registration identity cards whenever they stop or interrogate a motorist for whatever cause. Of course, if they are looking for a stolen car or have reason to believe that a particular motorist is engaged in committing a crime, that is one thing, but to demand a national registration identity card from all and sundry ... , for instance, from a lady who may leave her car outside a shop longer than she should, or some trivial matter of that sort,...is wholly unreasonable.
This Act was passed for security purposes, and not for the purposes for which, apparently, it is now sought to be used. To use Acts of Parliament, passed for particular purposes during war, in times when the war is past, except that technically a state of war exists, tends to turn law-abiding subjects into lawbreakers, which is a most undesirable state of affairs. Further, in this country we have always prided ourselves on the good feeling that exists between the police and the public and such action tends to make the people resentful of the acts of the police and inclines them to obstruct the police instead of to assist them.”
At a time when the Police are requesting further right to access our online activities Function Creep is something we should all be aware of.
I could go on but I am sure you get the picture
Cheers
Guy
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Definitely archive the original - never never destroy original documents.
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Even original documents suffer wear and tear if they are viewed a lot by genealogists at record offices. Imagine the strain of old workhouse records if they constantly get transported from the archive room to the reading room table, and then get flicked through by us, even if we wear gloves. Scanning them is a good way but always keep the original.
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The thing that concerns me is that "Technology" changes! Look at the Modern "Domesday" project - quite recent, and yet within a few years issues re: reading it. Remember Betamax? Original records should ALWAYS be preserved - yes, scan 'em, copy 'em, but never, never ever destroy!!
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The thing that concerns me is that "Technology" changes! Look at the Modern "Domesday" project - quite recent, and yet within a few years issues re: reading it. Remember Betamax? Original records should ALWAYS be preserved - yes, scan 'em, copy 'em, but never, never ever destroy!!
Well said!
Problem is we are the 'captive audience' so to speak. I don't think you'd find anyone on here who would advocate the destruction of any paper records whatever they are.
Ask the man in the street and he probably couldn't care less, as long as it was saving him money ???
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In almost every discussion if opinions are not fairly evenly split, there will be at least a few dissenting voices. But on this question, interestingly not one reply so far has concurred with destroying the original documents. :P
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BTW, I agree with everyone else here. Technology could change too far, too fast, so don't destroy the originals..
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I can't see much evidence here that any records are going to be destroyed. Maybe someone should seek clarification with the authors of the document as to what was meant by the statement, otherwise it's nothing more than speculation.
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I agree, Vervet. The tender document says ‘the Register will not be retained by The National Archives’. Since TNA can’t retain something it has never had, it’s quite some leap of the imagination to say that this means the books are going to be destroyed. They were, and are, in the custody of the HSCIC. I don't know if anyone has asked them directly what they intend to do with the books, but that would seem to be a sensible first step.
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I agree, Vervet. The tender document says ‘the Register will not be retained by The National Archives’. Since TNA can’t retain something it has never had, it’s quite some leap of the imagination to say that this means the books are going to be destroyed. They were, and are, in the custody of the HSCIC. I don't know if anyone has asked them directly what they intend to do with the books, but that would seem to be a sensible first step.
I have that is why I asked
Cheers
Guy
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Of course they should not be destroyed. The question, in my mind, is whether they already have been. I don't think the fact that they do not explicitly say that they are not going to do so means that it will not be done. If they admit that they are going to be destroyed, they risk an outcry against it. Perhaps things are different in England, but if it were here, I would assume they were being destroyed.
I get the feeling that Archives are losing their sense of purpose. Here in Canada our national library and archives (all one organization) threw out all kinds of material a few years ago. Publicly, they claimed to have sold some of it and offered it to other libraries/archives, but I never heard them say they were throwing out valuable historical resources, which they did. This action followed the hiring of a national director who was neither an archivist nor a librarian, but a person with a business background - unprecedented.
Many of us have the impression that this decision was politically motivated. We have now soundly turfed out that government, but we don't get our valuable materials back, nor were they scanned. Gone forever, and it's as if they had never existed, as no trace remains in the electronic indexing. Poof! None of us even really know what-all was lost.
I am in possession of some photocopies of materials I searched out in one of our national libraries (which, itself, has been closed, although some materials transferred elsewhere). I now have what are probably the only copies in existence anywhere, as that library held the only extant originals and there are no microfilms. They are historically significant. A genuine chill went down my spine as I realized that although they had survived very well for almost 100 years and were in very good condition when I made my copies a few years ago, they have been obliterated and the only evidence of them is in references in academic articles - and some pages in my personal possession. I don't even know what to do with them. Where can one even donate them where they won't be thrown out again? Nowhere, it seems.
I find all of this quite alarming, especially because I do believe it was political. In this particular case I feel confident that the material was not offered to other libraries/archives because there is excellent reason to believe that one particular library would have been glad to receive it - and it's probably where it should have been in the first place.
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Destroying original documents such those would be pure lunacy, they will be needed for years to come to correct errors such as records that missed being digitised. If any organisation thinks it can digitise masses of records without a few mistakes along the way then they aren't thinking straight, where humans are involved there will always be the risk of human error.
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Destroying original documents such those would be pure lunacy, they will be needed for years to come to correct errors such as records that missed being digitised. If any organisation thinks it can digitise masses of records without a few mistakes along the way then they aren't thinking straight, where humans are involved there will always be the risk of human error.
Even in the few hours it has been on line people are finding mistakes. I can't find my grandparents, although I know exactly where they were living. I also know the names of their neighbours on both sides, so looked for them, but they aren't there either, so it looks as if a section of the road has been left out. How could this be checked if the originals are destroyed?
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To rely on digital records only is utter lunacy.
It only needs for the sun to give a burp in our direction, and ALL electrical and electronic equipment will be junk.
Just think of your bank records being wiped out :o :o :o :o
It happened once before at the very beginning of the electrical era, about 1859, and the telegraph operators had sparks coming out from the wires to their desks.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_storm_of_1859
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Destroying original documents such those would be pure lunacy, they will be needed for years to come to correct errors such as records that missed being digitised. If any organisation thinks it can digitise masses of records without a few mistakes along the way then they aren't thinking straight, where humans are involved there will always be the risk of human error.
Even in the few hours it has been on line people are finding mistakes. I can't find my grandparents, although I know exactly where they were living. I also know the names of their neighbours on both sides, so looked for them, but they aren't there either, so it looks as if a section of the road has been left out. How could this be checked if the originals are destroyed?
The easy way to do it is search for the road (by address), but be aware the house numbers do not all follow in sequence. They show odd number first then any additional odd number, folled by even numbers then any additional even numbers
Cheers
Guy
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Thanks Guy, but I've already done that, been up and down the road a couple of times, but they and their neighbours are definitely not there. I've informed FindMyPast.
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They should be kept for, say, 200 years.... there are plenty of cheap places you can put this sort of stuff.... eg Wales.
A lot of the overhead cost of keeping records is that so much is kept in/close to London, with London property overheads, high London staff costs, etc etc.
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Well the NA's previous experience with digitising archives would suggest that they shouldn't destroy original material anytime soon! : http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/mar/03/research.elearning
Surely there's a corner of an abandoned mine somewhere in Britain that could be used for long term, low maintenance storage of archival material that it is believed won't be used anytime soon.
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Well the NA's previous experience with digitising archives would suggest that they shouldn't destroy original material anytime soon! : http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/mar/03/research.elearning
...and that was before we were quite so besieged with worries about hackers as we are today.
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BTW, I agree with everyone else here. Technology could change too far, too fast, so don't destroy the originals..
I agree, never destroy the original paper records. As long as humans can read and the paper and ink are in tact and legible they can be retrieved.
Many years ago, I worked for a company that kept paper records for 5 years and then microfilmed them. At first this was on reels of film, then as technology advanced they moved over to microfiche. Then an inspector called....
He wanted to see records going back 12 years, no problem, we had them. But where were they? - on the reels of film carefully indexed and archived. And where was the reel film reader?
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They should be kept for, say, 200 years.... there are plenty of cheap places you can put this sort of stuff.... eg Wales.
A lot of the overhead cost of keeping records is that so much is kept in/close to London, with London property overheads, high London staff costs, etc etc.
Or they could be archived with the other archived records in the Chesher salt mines.
Cheers
Guy
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No, of course it shouldn't be destroyed.
There are digital copies of the Magna Carta document that was so much in the news earlier this year, but nobody's suggested destroying the originals, and I don't see what the difference is.
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Just last night I was searching through images of old newspaper articles online when I came across a photo of two young men who were serving in the First World War. It should have been a wonderful treasure but instead the photo was almost completely black due to the way it was microfilmed. This is the rule rather than the exception when viewing old newspapers on microfilm -- and in most, if not all cases, the original newspapers were destroyed after they were microfilmed. This is the case for articles and photos that are of personal interest and also of historical import.
Even records that have been captured more recently using more modern technology often come up short because they were done in bulk by people who had to meet a deadline and therefore couldn't afford to fidget and fuss with each image. And if you don't have the originals to go back to, you might be stuck with unreadable documents, which again might be relevant to a few individuals, or to the world at large.
Regards,
Josephine
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Just last night I was searching through images of old newspaper articles online when I came across a photo of two young men who were serving in the First World War. It should have been a wonderful treasure but instead the photo was almost completely black due to the way it was microfilmed. This is the rule rather than the exception when viewing old newspapers on microfilm -- and in most, if not all cases, the original newspapers were destroyed after they were microfilmed. This is the case for articles and photos that are of personal interest and also of historical import.
Even records that have been captured more recently using more modern technology often come up short because they were done in bulk by people who had to meet a deadline and therefore couldn't afford to fidget and fuss with each image. And if you don't have the originals to go back to, you might be stuck with unreadable documents, which again might be relevant to a few individuals, or to the world at large.
Regards,
Josephine
I know what you mean, and it's very frustrating.
Sometimes there are depositories of the original photographs which can still be consulted. They may reside with the library of the newspaper in question if it still exists, or they may have been donated by the paper to an archive, or in some cases a particular newspaper photographer may have an archive somewhere.
In addition, in some cases the original newspaper print copy still exists but may not be well advertised as such. For example the Toronto Public Library has original copies of Toronto newspapers as well as microfilm, but they don't advertise this fact. If you ask, you can see them, no restrictions; and then you could at least take a digital photo, which will surely be better than the microfilm. And if the newspaper itself is still operating, it may also have a set of originals.
You may already know this, but I thought it might be worth mentioning anyway.
I even know of a couple of newspapers which, mercifully, has never been microfilmed and are still in publication, so they have kept them all, but they are in small villages in somewhat remote locations, and you have to go there in person or send an emissary! I got very lucky with one of the latter once. I didn't even know the newspaper existed, but my contact knew its owner and was able to access their INDEXED(!) photo collection, retrieving one that was abt 70 years old of a great-great-aunt of whom no other photos were extant.
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I believe that even some of the "new" paper is not very good. The heat treated paper will fade over a few years.
In Australia, there are a lot of records from the early teleprinters which are stored in Canberra, but are of no use as the printing has faded. BUT under the law, they cannot be destroyed ::) ::) as they are the "originals"
Also much of the USA tax records are "preserved" on punch cards. Guess what has happened to the readers, sold for scrap :o :o
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Excellent advice, loo; thank you!
Regards,
Josephine
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You're welcome, Josephine. Glad I could contribute something.
There are now computer museums emerging, and the people who run them seem keen on restoring the old machines. We may need them! Between that and 3D printing, perhaps we can eventually reproduce the machines we need! ;) ;)
There is a computer museum in Brantford, Ontario, Canada, with quite a few old computers that they are restoring or have restored, and the people who run it are very friendly.
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Re the destruction of the original paper 1939 registers - what about the right-hand pages of the registers which have not been digitised? Is there any information at all held on those pages?
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Re the destruction of the original paper 1939 registers - what about the right-hand pages of the registers which have not been digitised? Is there any information at all held on those pages?
Found the answer to my own question:
"The right hand page of the Register which we haven't digitised or indexed contains sensitive medical information that we're forbidden from publishing online. If the medical information of an individual stretched over two lines on the right, that person was duplicated on the left. If you see your relative on two lines with identical information, this is why.
"If a note exists on an individual's record that refers to another page, click the arrow on the right to be taken to that page in the image."
https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/watch-1436591498.html (https://blog.findmypast.co.uk/watch-1436591498.html)
So - if the original registers are pulped, presumably the medical information will be lost for good.
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My thoughts are simple, never destroy originals. I still refer to the paper IGIs that I had printed at various offices forty years ago. You never know what has been overlooked and I suppose I'm old school , I prefer paper in my hand. Digitise by all means but no destruction of originals.
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Soon after I retired, I requested copies of my training records from my old employer. All the paper records had been destroyed, without any digitisation. There were "new" records on the website, but I was the only one with the "old" records, and not the full information about what each was.
A great idea.
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Soon after I retired, I requested copies of my training records from my old employer. All the paper records had been destroyed, without any digitisation. There were "new" records on the website, but I was the only one with the "old" records, and not the full information about what each was.
A great idea.
As I have a possible industrial injury claim outstanding, on retirement I thought it prudent to get a copy of my service history from the railway. They have all been pulped!!
HMG and successor authorities are certainly taking a risk with future possible claims I feel, but that is their problem; good luck to the claimants.
All that was available is an electronic list of depots I was employed at, grades and rates of pay; this I accepted in lieu. With this they can't say I was never at the place where I may have been injured c1960.
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I sincerely hope there is a change of heart on this. original records should never be destroyed. we do not know how long digital records will be able to be accessed as we cannot see into the future. The originals must be kept. there must be room somewhere
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I may have missed something, but has the HSCIC (which holds the original records) said that it intends to destroy them?