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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Antrim => Topic started by: tumpy51 on Monday 26 October 15 20:05 GMT (UK)
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Hi
Can anyone help identify the school from this photograph? I estimate the date to be between 1918 and 1921. The photographer is Allison & Co. My Grandfather (Alexander in the photograph) was from Belfast but may have been sent away to board. His family were Presbyterian.
Thank you
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Hi tumpy51,
Obviously a photo of a boys' Preparatory or Public School.
The "Rossel House" is likely to have been one of several Houses (usually four) within the school.
There are 17 individuals present in the photo, so this might indicate a school of 60-80 pupils.
[Only the 3, surrounding the trophy, are wearing sporting headgear, so the other 8 or 12 from the team (depending on whether they are cricket or rugby caps) must be elsewhere (viz. in other Houses).
Two of these 3 seem to have an "X" badge on their upper pockets, perhaps for "XI or "XV".]
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The Allison photographers started in Belfast in 1881, but branched out to Newry, Dundalk & Warrenpoint.
However, their main base (where all the prints were eventually made) was in Armagh.
An extensive archive is held by PRONI.
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/pronionflickr/about-allison-collection.htm
It is a shame that the bottom right of the photo frame is missing, otherwise the photographer's location information might have given a crucial clue as to the region in which the school was located.
Anyways, because of the restricted spread of the Allison business, I'd reckon that the school is regional to the North of Ireland, and not further abroad.
I did find one reference of The Rev. Alfred Theodore WREN having served as Mathematical Master at Rossel School and preacher at Abingdon, Oxfordshire during 1878-1879.
Reckon that this is a mistype- that school was known as ROYSSE's school from 1543-1960.
Ref:
Appointment at NEWTON.
The Bury and Norwich Post, and Suffolk Standard (Bury Saint Edmunds, England), Tuesday, February 02, 1892; pg. 7; Issue 5790. 19th Century British Library Newspapers: Part II.
That school looks a tad grander than the one in the photo!
Ref: http://www.francisfrith.com/abingdon-on-thames/abingdon-roysse-s-school-1925_77612
Before he was appointed Headmaster of Campbell College, Belfast, in 1954, a Francis John Granville Cook had been Headmaster of the Junior School, Rossall school, 1949-54. This is located at Fleetwood, in Lancashire.
[Maybe there were earlier links ...? Many Presbyterians came over from that county.]
http://www.lennonwylie.co.uk/CampbellCollegeRegisterInfo.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rossall_School
Also, a "Rossel School" took part in a cricket match at Ormeau Park, Belfast.
[Reckon that this was a mistype for The Rev. Mr. RUSSELL's school, in Franklin Place, Belfast.]
Ref:
CRICKET .
The Belfast News-Letter (Belfast, Ireland), Saturday, May 23, 1874; Issue 55957.
Hope that this helps.
Capt. Jock
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The bottom corner of the photo seems to show "Allison & sons, Newry? and......"
Surely it may help if we knew Alexander's surname.
For what it's worth the children's headgear looks more in keeping with an 'overseas' school, rather than Irish one.
fadge
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... yes, it could be "Newry and" (then presumably the other towns in which the business was based).
So, maybe not so diagnostic.
ALEXANDER will be the surname.
[One would not have addressed other individuals by their first names, except if they were intimate friends.
If there were multiple instances of the same surname, they were differentiated by the Latin numeral designations - "I", "II, "III", etc.]
Yes the Panama hats look a tad strange. Very "English".
Possibly a hangover from WWI naval/diplomatic roles?
The 1920s was the era of the Flappers after all!
Capt Jock
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Note that the front row have blanket / cloth to sit on, presumably a sharp stone underneath?
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Cripes! Perhaps they were at Carrick-Fergus or Bally-Craigy?
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May just have proved myself wrong.( Not an Overseas school!)
I think the school is Mourne Grange School, Kilkeel.
There are several photos on PRONI images on Flickr, of the cricket team where similar hats and blazers are on display. The only thing is, the doorway used in your photo is not the same.
See what you think.
The cap badges also look similar.
Look at 1913-1916 photos. Notice the First Eleven pockets. [XI]. The clincher I think.
fadge
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PRONI also have documents about Mourne Grange Prep School in their archives. They are from 1900 to 1971 and include registers, society minute books and magazines. The son of J M Andrews, Prime Minister of N Ireland,born 1903, was a pupil at the school.
fadge
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Reckon that you cracked it there Fadge36.
Absolutely "Spiffing", Old Chap! A four-farl score!!
[Very interesting those offerings of the ALLISON and COOPER photographic collections.
Ref: http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/pronionflickr.htm]
The floppy bunnets also match - each having three dark thin stripes.
[Can't compare the ties (which are also 3-striped) 'cos no one in the original photo is wearing one.]
I counted 64 boys in one of the group photographs.
The rugs seem to have got fancier with the years ...
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The school appears to have been founded in 1900 by Allen Sausmarez CAREY.
Now, I know those names from Guernsey, where the De SAUSMAREZ family were long established (producing a famous Admiral of the Fleet), and CAREY was the chief concho at the Royal Court in the mid 19thC. The former gave their name to Sausmarez DUBORDIEU, a French Hugenot pastor who settled at Lisburn in the early 18thC. His descendants took over the "castle" at Carrowdore in the Ards in the 19thC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Saumarez,_1st_Baron_de_Saumarez
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausmarez_Manor
http://sausmarezmanor.co.uk/history.html
Hmm, wonder what this might say about the possible adoption of the ROSSEL name by the House.
Was he another exiled Hugenot?
[Think that I saw something about a General or Admiral ROSSEL ....]
Also, there was a famous French soldier (of a Communist persuasion), well known to all in the British Isles, who fell out with the increasingly Monarchist forces in France, eventually being tried and executed ...
Source Citation:
"Captain Rossel's Art Of War.*." Times [London, England] 20 Oct. 1871: 4. The Times Digital Archive. Web. 27 Oct. 2015.
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The Mourne area was an area of heavy English settlement.
[And still is! I recall chatting to a very proper English gentleman on a flight to Belfast once, with me expounding all the merits of Norn Iron, etc. When we landed he thanked me and said " ... and I know that is all true, 'cos I've lived in the Mourne region for 25 years, commuting to work elsewhere!".]
Golly Gosh! This is exciting stuff ....
Capt. Jock
ADDENDUM:
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/ROSZELL/2001-06/0992183754
This mentions ROSELs, French Hugenots, being in Picardy, Normandy and the Channel Islands, as well as in Switzerland, etc.
[Jean Calvin was born in Picardy (Noyon) but spent most of his later life (by accident) in Switzerland, being instrumental in persuading the city councils of Berne, then Geneva, to convert to the cause of the Reformation.]
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Noticed that there is a Pelly II in the front and wonder if this is C Nigel Pelly ,later a renowned pilot, who famously flew Neville Chamberlain to meet Hitler in 1938. He was a Mourne Grange pupil.
fadge
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A Bob Tisdall (born 1907) went to Mourne Grange-
http://www.achilles.org/ftp/tisdall.pdf
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If you search PRONI's e-catalogue using 'mourne grange' you will see that in addition to various photographs they also hold registers which would cover the period your grandfather might have been enrolled.
http://www.proni.gov.uk/index/search_the_archives/ecatalogue.htm
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So many replies and I have (unbelievably) been without internet for days. Will read them all and digest. Thank you everyone!
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Great sleuthing!
I have just looked at all the PRONI photos on flickr and it is undoubtedly Mourne Grange School. I now have a starting point for research. I hope this will also help anyone else who has relatives in the photo. The names are a great bonus.
Jo
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"Jolly two-shoes you!", Jo.
[You shouldn't laud us so much, it just encourages us even more ...]
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You have a valuable photograph there.
[You may wish to consider sharing it with PRONI, to help preserve it publicly for posterity.
There are many photographs around, but very few with such valuable annotation on them.]
In the meantime, to help out the Internet-crawling robots with indexing the location and the names, these texts should supply sufficiently differentiated fodder for them:
Photograph
Allison & Sons, Newry
Rossel House
Mourne Grange School, Kilkeel, County Down, Northern Ireland
ALEXANDER
BARBOUR
DORAN
ELKINS (?)
FRANKS
GRACIE
PELLEY
ROTHERAM
RUSSEL
SCOTT
STEWART
STRACHAN
TISDALL
WHEELER
WRIGHT
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Here is the image of a postcard of the whole school facade (date unknown):
[The building on the left seems to present a wide doorway flanked by two bay windows, just like your (restricted view) photograph.]
http://www.postcardsireland.com/postcard/mourne-grange-kilkeel
Its founder is buried locally, with family (?):
Allen Sausmarez CAREY
Florence Caroline CAREY (wife?)
Patrick Sausmarez CAREY (son?)
http://tracingyourmourneroots.com/?s=carey
http://tracingyourmourneroots.com/person/allen-sausmarez-carey/
Some info on the town (including present-day Education):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilkeel
Perhaps, son(?) Patrick CAREY's penchant for drama was picked up from one of the main themes of his father's school?
"But the 50’s were a golden decade, under the direction of Patrick Carey, headmaster at Grange primary school in Kilkeel. His skill and dedication sent Newpoint Players’ reputation rocketing. The B.B.C. selected the Newry society to participate in the programme, “We do it for love,” and they were also chosen to represent Northern Ireland at the Festival of Britain. Then came the ultimate accolade at the All-Ireland Drama Festival in Athlone, winning a special award for “The Duchess of Malfi,” following by the premier prize for “Arms and the Man” in 1958. This was broadcast on Radio Eireann."
http://www.newrymemoirs.com/stories_pages/giantsofdrama_1.html
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Given Kilkeel's great sea trading history, I tried hard to find a naval connection for ROSSEL.
One (remote) possibility is a 2nd Lieutenant in Rear Admiral Bruni D'Entrecasteaux's French expedition to the Polynesian islands in the early 1790s, who eventually had to take over control. Monsieur M. ROSSEL seems to have had an island named after him.
http://nzetc.victoria.ac.nz/tm/scholarly/tei-BucExpl-t1-body-d16-d7.html
This is roughly around the time of NELSON coming to prominence.
So, perhaps, the houses were named ROSSEL, COCHRAN, SAUSMAREZ, (NELSON), ...
[But this is pure speculation, and there is probably a more prosaic solution.]
Just the sort of spirit that a male independent school of the time would be trying to inculcate within its pupils.
[Boldness, confidence, courage, determination, prowess, comradeship, leadership, decisiveness, persuaviness, oratory, competing, battling, winning, out_smarting, strategy, knowledge, etc.]
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Reckon that the identification of a Guernsey connection of the founder is secure though.
The CAREY's are long established there - since the 14thC!
They also seem to have married in to the ALLENs.
http://www.careyroots.com/index.html
[Sadly this site has not been updated since 2005, and many of the links do not work.]
Thus reckon that Fadge's assessment of the "overseas" nature of the floppy hats can be met, almost.
They are just the sort of thing that a gentleman on a sunny windswept island in the Empire might wear.
Jamaica, Bermuda, ... , Malta, ... , Ceylon, ...., Guernsey!
[The Channel Islands are as far away as you can get from the North of Ireland within the British Isles, without having to use a passport. Great place for producing early-season vegetables. Lovely young tomatoes and new potatoes (though no use for producing potato bread!).]
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I am much interested in connections between Guernsey and County Antrim, so very glad that such turned up unexpectedly in this research.
My own family were there in the mid-19thC, but why is a mystery.
[Solving such might clear our 18thC boundary log jam!]
Possibly with earlier connections to the Napoleonic Wars.
[General Henry SEYMOUR-CONWAY (brother of Lord Hertford - owner of most of SW Antrim - Lisburn et al.), who was M.P for County Antrim then Chief Secretary of Ireland, was also Governor of Jersey for many years, organising the defences of St. Helier, such proving effective when the French attempted an invasion a few years later. etc. etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Seymour_Conway]
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Hope that you didn't mind the colloquialisms.
Some can find them a tad "affected".
[I had to send my son to a small English independent school.
He returned every weekend with these phrases, much to my amusement.]
Anyway, think that that is all that I can help you with from online searches.
Further answers lie in PRONI (and maybe the Priaulx Library, St. Peter Port, Guernsey).
All the best with your further trawling of the murky depths!
Capt. Jock
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Hi again,
With all your information I was able to locate the original advertisement in the Belfast Newsletter, (I had findmy past credits to use up) which boasts
"the healthy climate is particularly suited for delicate boys" !
Jo
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Hi Jo.
Glad you have returned from the darkness without internet connection.
Not sure when the school closed but suspect there are many ex pupils out there who would know the House names and more about the school generally.
Would love to know your grandfather's name and home. Who knows what information the experts on this Forum could unearth when you see the stuff already produced.
Think the school became a special needs community in the 70s.
fadge
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Well found on the original newspaper advertisement.
[This was repeated regularly until the school opened in September 1900.]
Its full content confirms many of the speculations ...
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AN ENGLISH PREPARATORY SCHOOL IN IRELAND
WILL BE OPENED IN SEPTEMBER TO
prepare Boys for the English Public Schools and Royal Navy.
English surroundings and English servants.
The House and Grounds, situated near Mourne Park,
are close to the Mourne Mountains and the open sea.
The healthy climate is particularly suited for delicate boys.
Full particulars from the HEADMASTER, Mourne Grange, Kilkeel, Co. Down
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Ref: Advertisements & Notices .
The Belfast News-Letter, Thursday, June 14, 1900; Issue 26478.
Bob Tisdall 1907-2004 was an interesting character. Out of a land owning family from Nenagh, Tipperary, he was born on Ceylon where his father was a tea planter. He went up to Shrewsbury from Mourne Grange. Then on to Gonville & Caius, Cambridge later where his athletic prowess flowered, prior to his Olympic triumph at Los Angeles in 1932 representing Ireland. He spent time in India, South Africa & Kenya, before emigrating to Queensland, Australia! Didn't like the air in London nor the cold/wet climate in Cork!
Ref: "Bob Tisdall; Obituary." Times [London, England] 2 Aug. 2004
If that is him in the photo (next to your man) then, given that he looks aged ~13, that would give an estimate of the date of the photo of 1919-1920.
Reckon that the Preparatory School would have taken boys aged 8-14 (16).
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A Mr. A.S. Carey, Mourne Grange (presumably another son of the founder) went up to Cheltenham college.
Scholarships - £30 Exhibitioners (awarded to boys NOT already at the college).
Cheltenham Chronicle and Gloucestershire Graphic, Saturday, June 10, 1933; pg. 8.
British Newspapers, Part IV: 1780-1950.
Cheltenham College - £80 Exhibitions (awarded to boys already at the college).
[Mr. A.S. Carey had his reallocated to another boy.]
Cheltenham Chronicle and Gloucestershire Graphic, Saturday, June 06, 1925; pg. 5.
British Newspapers, Part IV: 1780-1950.
Cheltenham College - £80 Entrance Scholarships.
Cheltenham Chronicle and Gloucestershire Graphic, Saturday, June 07, 1924; pg. 6.
British Newspapers, Part IV: 1780-1950.
Scholarships were awarded by the results in exams.
[Looks like he might have had ~5 years out ...]
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Hello W et al.
I have 4 or 5 photos of teams at Moure Grange taken 1950 - 1950.
Too big to load onto this site.
Anybody want a copy/copies?
David O'N
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Hi, I realise you posted over a decade ago but I am the grand-daughter of Pelly 2! I found this photo today with my dad (who also went to Mourne Grange) and we were excited to see it! Yes Pelly 2 was the famous pilot :)
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Hello W et al.
I have 4 or 5 photos of teams at Moure Grange taken 1950 - 1950.
Too big to load onto this site.
Anybody want a copy/copies?
David O'N
yes please! My Dad (Pelly) started in Jan 1950.